Watson/QB's

[govandals]

Now the Browns are meeting with Watson today. If that happens, I can see Pete liking Baker Mayfield, although I wouldn't do it.

[RiverDog]

Now the Browns are meeting with Watson today. If that happens, I can see Pete liking Baker Mayfield, although I wouldn't do it.

Yea, me, either. The Browns are looking to unload him for a reason: He had a very poor 2021 season, his career numbers don't match his hype, he suffered a season ending injury on his non throwing shoulder requiring surgery, and is due $18M this season, the option year of his rookie contract.

[NorthHawk]

The question is if he could play within Pete's system? Maybe an emphasis on protecting the ball could help him
but I don't know how accurate he is.

[NorthHawk]

The field is apparently narrowing in the Deshaun Watson sweepstakes as he's meeting with the Panthers and Saints. The Colts tried to schedule a meeting with him, but the Texans said no, apparently unwilling to trade him to a team within their division. Supposedly the Hawks don't have any plans to meet with him, which is music to my ears.

One option, Mitch Trubisky, signed with the Steelers.

There's another story that says he's rebuffed every team except Carolina and the Saints.

[RiverDog]

The question is if he (Baker Mayfield) could play within Pete's system? Maybe an emphasis on protecting the ball could help him but I don't know how accurate he is.

Mayfield's career completion percentage is 61.6%, 60.5% in 2021, and his career TD:INT ratio is 92:56, 17:13 in 2021, so the numbers would suggest that he's not very accurate. He's also consistently ranked as one of the worst in time to throw. Especially when you take into consideration that he's playing behind one of the best offensive lines in the league (PFF had them ranked #8 overall in 2021, #1 in 2020) and one of if not the best running back tandem in the league, those metrics aren't very inspiring.

Is it any wonder that the Browns are trying to dump him?

[NorthHawk]

He sounds like a lot of QB's in the draft this year.

[RiverDog]

He sounds like a lot of QB's in the draft this year.

The Browns appear to have come to the conclusion that they're not going to hitch their wagon to Mayfield. He has one year left on his rookie contract so if they aren't going forward with him, then this would be the best time to move him as at least they can get something in return. But with that stat line and the fact that there's a lot of veteran quarterbacks on the market, how much is a prospective suitor going to put up to get him? Washington gave 2-3rd rounders for Carson Wentz, who is arguably the same type of quarterback, so there's no way that Mayfield will fetch a better deal.

[RiverDog]

I just saw where another FA QB that had been mentioned in some circles as being a possible candidate for our job, Teddy Bridgewater, has signed with the Dolphins.

[NorthHawk]

I just saw where another FA QB that had been mentioned in some circles as being a possible candidate for our job, Teddy Bridgewater, has signed with the Dolphins.

We will probably sign someone, but I would think any QB they sign at this point will just be a place holder until they can find another Franchise QB or at least someone who is a step above
the current expected group.

[RiverDog]

We will probably sign someone, but I would think any QB they sign at this point will just be a place holder until they can find another Franchise QB or at least someone who is a step above the current expected group.

The only two that might be more than a placeholder are Mariota and Taylor, unless some sort of trade happens. We currently have just two QB's on the roster in Lock and Chad Eaton and with the draft class being as skinny as it's being reported, you'd think that we'd sign one of those guys if Pete views this team as being a player or two away from competing, as I think he does.

[govandals]

Now the Falcons are in on Watson as well.

[RiverDog]

Now the Falcons are in on Watson as well.

Yea, they were talking that the Falcons might be interested. With both the Saints and the Panthers in the sweepstakes, both division rivals, I'm wondering if the Falcons are throwing their name into the hat just to run up the price.

[NorthHawk]

There was a report that Watson would only talk to the Saints and Carolina.
Have things changed?

[mykc14]

Now the Falcons are in on Watson as well.

That would be interesting because they are really in a tough spot with Ryan's contract. Not only does he carry cap hits of 36 and 46 million over the next two years, but he has three added 'voidable' years on his contract with cap hits of 3 million each. If the Falcons were to cut or trade him he cost them 55 million in dead cap, which seems unlikely, given Watson's current contract.

On the topic of voidable years have you guys seen Rodgers latest contract structure? It is pretty crazy and there is no doubt they are going all in over the next three years and then they are going to pay the price. His cap hits are 28, 31, and 40 but after that he has two voidable years with cap hits of 59 and 53 million. As far as I know voidable years are years that player is no longer under contract and they can play somewhere else or they have to sign a new contract to stay on the team. In other words the Packers could have cap hits of 59 and 53 million while Rodgers is playing for somebody else, or they will have to sign him to a new contract while still having to account for those two high cap hits. What they can do is basically the same thing but add more voidable years, but eventually they are going to end up with multiple years of dead cap.

[Oly]

I got a kick out of this post arguing for Minshew: https://www.fieldgulls.com/2022/3/14/22 ... rroll-2022

If the Hawks could get him for a 6th, I'd go for it. Probably won't happen and I don't think he'd be very good, but if the Hawks are gonna suck anyway, this guy might make it at least an amusing kind of suck.

[TriCitySam]

Watson is out, he is down to NO, Carolina, and the Falcons. So we are doomed. Its like in combat guys, once you realize your dead you might make it. IF you have any hope for this team until Pete leaves, your delusionally dumb.

There are some really smart NFL folks - those who have been in the NFL and those who are still in the NFL - who do not hold this opinion of Pete, and I saw him build a championship team, and a team that has been competitive for a decade, out of the mess that Mora left. I think I buy their opinion....do you think this team makes the playoffs in 2 or 3 years?

[RiverDog]

Watson is out, he is down to NO, Carolina, and the Falcons. So we are doomed. Its like in combat guys, once you realize your dead you might make it. IF you have any hope for this team until Pete leaves, your delusionally dumb.

There are some really smart NFL folks - those who have been in the NFL and those who are still in the NFL - who do not hold this opinion of Pete, and I saw him build a championship team, and a team that has been competitive for a decade, out of the mess that Mora left. I think I buy their opinion....do you think this team makes the playoffs in 2 or 3 years?

Yeah, our friend Obi might have gone a little over the top with the 'delusionally dumb' remark. There's some good, logical reasons to have 'any hope'.

I don't measure coaching performance by playoff appearances, especially nowadays when nearly half of all the teams in the league qualify. But to answer your question, I absolutely think that Pete will have this team in the playoffs, perhaps as early as this coming season. After all, if you look at some of our games from last season, how close some of them were, and that we have what at least on paper looks like a soft schedule, one could argue that we have a strong chance of making the playoffs. But unless he's truly turned a new page, I don't see him putting together a genuine SB competitor, a team that can go to a conference championship game, and that's how I measure coaching performances.

[Aseahawkfan]

We're all used to obiken's responses. He's just sad the team lost it's best QB and won't be competitive for the foreseeable future. If we get some studs in the draft and the team turns around quick, he'll be happy like the rest of us. Obiken and Hawktawk both wear their hearts on their sleeves and the emotion runs strong in them.

[Hawktawk]

We're all used to obiken's responses. He's just sad the team lost it's best QB and won't be competitive for the foreseeable future. If we get some studs in the draft and the team turns around quick, he'll be happy like the rest of us. Obiken and Hawktawk both wear their hearts on their sleeves and the emotion runs strong in them.

I wear my heart on my sleeve but I’m not a potted plant either . I’m right sometimes . But a broken clock is right twice a day too right

[RiverDog]

We're all used to obiken's responses. He's just sad the team lost it's best QB and won't be competitive for the foreseeable future. If we get some studs in the draft and the team turns around quick, he'll be happy like the rest of us. Obiken and Hawktawk both wear their hearts on their sleeves and the emotion runs strong in them.

I wear my heart on my sleeve but I’m not a potted plant either . I’m right sometimes . But a broken clock is right twice a day too right

As much grief as I give you, you're right more often than the broken clock.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wear my heart on my sleeve but I’m not a potted plant either . I’m right sometimes . But a broken clock is right twice a day too right

You are right sometimes. You know the sport. I think when you calm that tempest inside, you know how this whole thing works. And that it's all going to come down to draft and free agency execution for the clay, then the development and strategy to mold the clay. Then on the field coaching and adjustments to get the team winning. Then for the big game win, staying healthy and having your best players step up at the right time to win.

Easy formula. Super hard to execute.

[obiken]

You are right sometimes. You know the sport. I think when you calm that tempest inside, you know how this whole thing works. And that it's all going to come down to draft and free agency execution for the clay, then the development and strategy to mold the clay. Then on the field coaching and adjustments to get the team winning. Then for the big game win, staying healthy and having your best players step up at the right time to win. Easy formula. Super hard to execute.

Yeah especially with Pete, River was spot on, the first 2-3 years when he was still connected to CFB he was good, after that its been a dumpster fire. We haven't had a good draft in 7 years.

[RiverDog]

It looks like the Browns might be trading Mayfield regardless of what happens with Deshaun Watson:

The Cleveland Browns are among the reported finalists to acquire Deshaun Watson. Even if they don’t land the Houston Texans quarterback, Baker Mayfield may be on the move.

Browns insider Mary Kay Cabot suggested the team might move on from Mayfield even if they don’t trade for Watson. “Baker Mayfield won’t be headed back home to Texas as part of the trade offer for Deshaun Watson, but he could be dealt even if the trade doesn’t happen,” Cabot reports, per Cleveland.com

But that’s not all. Later Tuesday night, the rumors of a potential Baker Mayfield trade grew even louder. When asked if the Browns would move on from Baker even if the team doesn’t trade for Watson, NFL insider Benjamin Allbright gave a simple answer. “I believe they will,” he said. He also suggested the Browns won’t be landing Watson in a trade. “And again I do not think they get Watson,” he said.

https://thespun.com/nfl/afc-north/cleve ... ing-louder

So what are the chances that Mayfield ends up with the Hawks? He's likely to come relatively cheap, like a 2nd day draft pick.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah especially with Pete, River was spot on, the first 2-3 years when he was still connected to CFB he was good, after that its been a dumpster fire. We haven't had a good draft in 7 years.

I think their inability to draft quality O-line has been the most frustrating aspect of their drafting.

So far they have been able to draft or trade for decent D-line up until recently. Their last D-line big hit was Frank Clark.

They haven't done bad at WR. Doug Baldwin was good. Tyler Lockett. Metcalf.

LBs they usually hit on. Wagner. Wright. Brooks.

DT run stuffers they do ok. DT pass rushers, not so much.

QB, well they hit on that before the trade.

CBs, well that used to be good. So good it's going to be hard to follow up as anyone drafted will be compared to Sherm.

Safeties not bad. Hard to match Earl and Kam. But they usually find good safeties.

RBs. They haven't really hit well since Lynch. Some ok guys with injury issues.

TE. They have drafted or picked up some talent, but don't really seem to use TEs very well.

They certainly haven't done a good job maintaining an overall roster. They have missed on too many picks recently, traded away too much draft capital, and the trades haven't been impactful.

Not real sure they can do magic a second time. But at this point we are where we are and our only entertainment is going to be watching the draft, then seeing if these guys show some promise.

[NorthHawk]

Yeah especially with Pete, River was spot on, the first 2-3 years when he was still connected to CFB he was good, after that its been a dumpster fire. We haven't had a good draft in 7 years.

I'm not sure that has a lot to do with it.
They don't play all of the SEC teams or ACC, or Big12, so Pete wouldn't have much first hand knowledge of those players.
As well, coaches in College don't just disappear because a College coach goes to the NFL. On the contrary they want to keep lines open so that their players
get drafted by the NFL which helps in recruiting kids to their college.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not sure that has a lot to do with it.
They don't play all of the SEC teams or ACC, or Big12, so Pete wouldn't have much first hand knowledge of those players.
As well, coaches in College don't just disappear because a College coach goes to the NFL. On the contrary they want to keep lines open so that their players
get drafted by the NFL which helps in recruiting kids to their college.

Why do you think they haven't been able to replenish lost talent?

Bad scouts? Bad coaching? Bad trades? Bad luck? What would you pinpoint as the cause for the immense drop off in the defense and especially along the lines? Why are Pete and John more confident trading for some guy on another team than drafting and developing talent? Why can't they see that their weak defense and inconsistent run game, especially when hitting the playoffs, is making them one dimensional in the playoffs and unable to prevent the other team from beating them?

[RiverDog]

Yeah especially with Pete, River was spot on, the first 2-3 years when he was still connected to CFB he was good, after that its been a dumpster fire. We haven't had a good draft in 7 years.

I'm not sure that has a lot to do with it. They don't play all of the SEC teams or ACC, or Big12, so Pete wouldn't have much first hand knowledge of those players. As well, coaches in College don't just disappear because a College coach goes to the NFL. On the contrary they want to keep lines open so that their players get drafted by the NFL which helps in recruiting kids to their college.

I don't think it any coincidence that the further away Pete got from his college days and the more he lost contact with the talent that was out there, the worse his drafting got.

He doesn't have to have had players on his roster or have played them in conference to have a good knowledge of them. A lot of those players Pete recruited. Take a look at that early roster: Richard Sherman, Stanford. Brandon Browner, Oregon State. Bobby Wagner, Utah State via LA. Marshawn Lynch, Cal. Earl Thomas, Texas. Those are all players that were at one time or another, at least on his radar if not personally recruited by Pete.

[NorthHawk]

Why do you think they haven't been able to replenish lost talent?

Bad scouts? Bad coaching? Bad trades? Bad luck? What would you pinpoint as the cause for the immense drop off in the defense and especially along the lines? Why are Pete and John more confident trading for some guy on another team than drafting and developing talent? Why can't they see that their weak defense and inconsistent run game, especially when hitting the playoffs, is making them one dimensional in the playoffs and unable to prevent the other team from beating them?

Their best drafts were when Scot McGlughan (SP) was identifying talent.
Sure, Pete would know Wagner, Sherman, etc from coaching against them, but it's far more complicated than that.
They scout all across the country, not just from the division a coach is from.
I see it as bad talent evaluation compounded by not selecting the best players at positions of need, and maybe even the arrogance of having a good draft or two early and thinking they
are the smartest people in the business. Compound that with bad trades and we see a massive decline in talent and maybe even scheme fit with the trade commodities we've received.
John was said to be high on Mahomes and Allen before they were drafted and many thought of them as late 1st round for Mahomes and maybe even 2nd round talent for Allen, so perhaps
he has an eye for players who can be molded into an NFL QB. I hope that's his niche in this business, but the rest of the team might be suspect if the trends of the last
8 or so years continue. From a talent accumulation they've lost their way in team building and gone from drafting well to trying to sign big names to make up for it, and it's been
a massive failure to date.

[Aseahawkfan]

Their best drafts were when Scot McGlughan (SP) was identifying talent.
Sure, Pete would know Wagner, Sherman, etc from coaching against them, but it's far more complicated than that.
They scout all across the country, not just from the division a coach is from.
I see it as bad talent evaluation compounded by not selecting the best players at positions of need, and maybe even the arrogance of having a good draft or two early and thinking they
are the smartest people in the business. Compound that with bad trades and we see a massive decline in talent and maybe even scheme fit with the trade commodities we've received.
John was said to be high on Mahomes and Allen before they were drafted and many thought of them as late 1st round for Mahomes and maybe even 2nd round talent for Allen, so perhaps
he has an eye for players who can be molded into an NFL QB. I hope that's his niche in this business, but the rest of the team might be suspect if the trends of the last
8 or so years continue. From a talent accumulation they've lost their way in team building and gone from drafting well to trying to sign big names to make up for it, and it's been
a massive failure to date.

I don't believe McGloughan picked the DBs. I believe that was mostly Pete. Pete had an idea of how he wanted the secondary to be and found the players who were currently out of favor in the NFL. But after Pete did it so well, he was copied and those players became more sought after and scarce.

I think between Ken Norton Jr. and Gus Bradley, they had good LB talent evaluators.

Our D-line really started to shine when Dan Quinn came onboard. We signed Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett, who became a great tandem. We already had Brandon Mebane who was a great anchor in the middle of the defense before McGloughan arrived.

So all these folks thinking McGloughan was the architect of the Super Bowl team are full of hot garbage. They don't recall very well how this team was built. They haven't spent much time thinking about how the team was built. It's a pretty amazing story if you think about it.

1. Chris Clemons: Our original LEO was traded for from the Eagles. The LEO was a position that Pete Carroll brought with him that he used in college with Clay Matthews.

2. Key Drafted Players: Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, and Earl Thomas. These guys were picked by Pete to do what he wanted to do with his defense. Pete knows DBs well and knew exactly what he wanted. The tall, long-armed CB like Richard Sherman was out of style. So it was a big surprise when Pete brought Sherm in and turned him into a Pro Bowl and possible Hall of Famer by designing the perfect defense for that type of player. Pete wanted that old school big strong safety and found it in Kam. Earl was the super fast free safety able to prevent the deep ball in Pete's defense. Pete designed the defense before he found the players perfect to execute it.

3. Trade for Marshawn Lynch. Pete Carroll knew Marshawn Lynch. He played against him in college. He knew he had that brutal run style Pete likes. He saw he was available from Buffalo, so he made the move. Then he set up the kind of social environment a player like Lynch thrives in. McGloughan had nothing to do with Pete Carroll letting Beastmode be Beastmode and getting the most out of him.

4. Doug Baldwin was an undrafted free agent that worked his way on the squad. With undrafted free agents, no way to know they're going to turn out to be your top receiver.

5. Bobby Wagner and KJ Wright we drafted. Maybe McGloughan knows LBs, I don't know. But so does Ken Norton Jr. and Gus Bradley. Finding a great LB isn't the hardest thing in the world. Pete knew how to use his LBs to support his defense.

6. Russell Okung. Maybe McGloughan picked this guy. Not sure. We've never had O-line expertise. Okung was probably the best O-line we ever drafted with Max Unger a close second likely. Not even sure McGloughan was here when we drafted Unger.

7. Russell Wilson. John Schneider personally scouted Russell Wilson. He believed in him and pushed him to be drafted. Then Pete let Russ compete and the rest is history.

The reality is a lot of different hands and a big one was Pete's built that Super Bowl team. We took pieces from a lot of different places that fit into what Pete wanted to do. Scott McGloughan didn't have a lot to do with it no matter how many people continue to put forth that theory which does not at all fit the facts.

The reality is Pete Carroll came into the league with a vision for a team that most of the NFL wasn't trying to build. He had pieces in mind before he arrived. He found those pieces and built about as close to a perfect team using his schemes as you can. Schneider found the QB that no one but him believed in and sold Carroll on it. Then we had the magic happen that is necessary to win a Super Bowl as it all came together.

The Seahawks Super Bowl team and win was one of those magical periods in football for a franchise when it call comes together to create something amazing.

Now can Pete and John pull this off again? Probably not, but at the point we were at I'd rather see them try as they seem at their best when they have no attachments to any players and are in Always Compete and Find Talent By Looking Under Every Rock mode. So we'll see what they can do.

[NorthHawk]

After McGluhan left, the drafts went downhill fast. He had a hand in all of the
evaluations during those early drafts including the UFAs.
He was also the guy who set up the 49ers with their talent base when they were
our main competitor.

[Aseahawkfan]

After McGluhan left, the drafts went downhill fast. He had a hand in all of the
evaluations during those early drafts including the UFAs.
He was also the guy who set up the 49ers with their talent base when they were
our main competitor.

That is not really what happened, not sure why you think this. I posted how the team was built and the draft was only one method. Pete Carroll had a huge hand in the scheme and style of the secondary, not McGloughan.

You and a few others keep making this statement like you know it to be true. I want you to provide evidence because I posted above how this team was built. Pinpoint who McGloughan picked with proof.

McGloughan has been gone a long time and the 49ers are still competing long after he is gone. The current 49er roster has little if anything to do with McGloughan.

Fact is we had our players in place for a long time as most Super Bowl teams do.

The McGloughan effect is vastly over-rated as I know for sure McGloughan had nothing to do with Russell Wilson. He didn't trade for Marshawn Lynch. He didn't sign Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett.

I'm not even sure who McGloughan drafted that everyone is hot on. Pete designed the secondary scheme and had a huge hand in who we drafted and how they developed.

Who do the McGloughan fans have to point to that he drafted that is so great?

[NorthHawk]

His tenure here from Wikipedia

Shortly after leaving the 49ers, McCloughan was hired by Seattle Seahawks general manager and close friend, John Schneider, to be a senior personnel executive on the team.[11] McCloughan accepted, and later assisted with the team's drafting of notable players in later rounds of the draft such as Russell Wilson, K. J. Wright, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman and Byron Maxwell.[2] He also had success in earlier rounds helping to draft players such as Earl Thomas, Russell Okung, Golden Tate, Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner in either the first or second round. McCloughan remained in this position until April 2014, when he again resigned due to personal issues.[1][12] After he left the Seahawks, McCloughan started up his own college scouting agency in Ferndale, Washington, where he evaluated incoming draftees for a handful of NFL teams.[1]

How were our drafts after he left?

[govandals]

It's been reported over the years that McCloughan had a large influence on those early drafts. How much we will never know for sure. No doubt the drafts have not been as good since he left.

[govandals]

Watson to the Browns for 3 firsts and change. 5yr/230 mil fully guaranteed extension. Well, let the Baker Mayfield to Seattle rumors fly.

[RiverDog]

Watson to the Browns for 3 firsts and change. 5yr/230 mil fully guaranteed extension. Well, let the Baker Mayfield to Seattle rumors fly.

I'm just breathing a big sigh of relief that he went somewhere other than the Seahawks.

[c_hawkbob]

Watson to the Browns for 3 firsts and change. 5yr/230 mil fully guaranteed extension. Well, let the Baker Mayfield to Seattle rumors fly.

I'm just breathing a big sigh of relief that he went somewhere other than the Seahawks.

Me too.

[Aseahawkfan]

How were our drafts after he left?

Still does not say who he drafted or what he did. You are just taking a period in time, ignoring that we did not build this team solely through the draft, and assuming McGloughan is somehow the reason.

I'm not going to keep posting how this team was built given any Seattle fan should know.

McGloughan did not build the Super Bowl team. That is just BS.

In your mind somehow McGloughan found everyone of our good players in the draft, convinced Carroll and Schneider to draft them, and built the team while Pete and John buffooned around going, "McGloughan, what would do with out you?" That just such a ridiculous idea I see getting posted over and over again. The idea that one guy in the organization has that much power to get players drafted and scouts them all and just knows better than everyone else like that's how NFL scouting and drafting works.

[govandals]

Speaking of Scot McCloughan, Rob Staton does a good interview with him over on SBD. It's a good listen, a little less than an hour in length. Talks about developing young QB's among other things. The pancake story is a good one.

[Aseahawkfan]

Watson to the Browns for 3 firsts and change. 5yr/230 mil fully guaranteed extension. Well, let the Baker Mayfield to Seattle rumors fly.

Glad we had nothing to do with this. Would have been trading away a great guy with no off the field issues and just as good of stats for a guy who could be permanently suspended at any point in time even more money.

[Hawktawk]

And a head case at 5 years when he’s really never done a damn thing . Glad Seattle didn’t get him .