FA's and Draft....

[TriCitySam]

Always interesting (to me) to watch things unfold each year as Free Agency has to be delt with, followed by the draft. The latter sometimes affects the former, and the former usually affects the latter. Draft is always tough: only about 50% of picks 15-64 get a 2nd contract; and OL is especially tough. This year, about a third of the teams have OL has a top need, so the position will be picked apart early. Pass rushers however are though to be the strongest in the draft (one analyst as 9 in the top 40 and another 8 at 51-100). I saw Heaps suggesting they re-work Russell and Bobby to a) free more cap space and b) extend. There are a few good OL FA's, so maybe that's a strategy - although the Schneider has preferred to stay away from the high priced guys and look for later bargins.

[Old but Slow]

Unlike most years, I would like to see the team go after a couple of top free agents early on, rather than wait to see who is still there after the best have been signed. In addition, they need to avoid making "cute" picks, "I bet you never expected us to do this!" picks, and "this guy looks like a Seahawk" picks. Just do the basics.

The cap money situation is good, and could get better with some smart moves. Cut Wagner? Saves a bundle. Trade Metcalf? Might get some picks. Trade Adams? Recover some picks. Who knows, but there is room to move (John Mayal reference).

In the draft I would like to see them finagle a couple more picks in the 2d to 4th rounds, and then go mainly defense. Add a OT and a RB in the later rounds, maybe taking Dameon Pierce (RB) in the 3d or 4th round if he is still there. If our first pick is Abraham Lucas (OT), I would be OK with that. But, mainly defense.

[RiverDog]

It will be interesting to see if we change our philosophy of staying away from the top tier free agents and continue to shop in the bargain basement. If Pete, indeed, thinks he's just a player or two away and that he's angling towards retirement as some have speculated, then perhaps he'll decide to make a big push for someone like Chandler Jones.

We also have our own players to take care of. Both of our starting tackles and center are free agents as well as cornerbacks Reed and Sydney Jones. Rasheem Green, Will Dissly, and Rashaad Penny are just a few of the players we're going to have to make a decision on.

[NorthHawk]

If Pete and the FO actually believe they are only a player or two away from a championship, then they can't wait until FA is over then
pick at the bargain bin hoping for a miracle. That hasn't worked for 8 years or more and all it has done is given the team some
questionable backups and FA failures.
If they do the same this year then we will know they don't really believe we are close and it's another sales job from Pete.

[obiken]

If Pete and the FO actually believe they are only a player or two away from a championship, then they can't wait until FA is over then
pick at the bargain bin hoping for a miracle. That hasn't worked for 8 years or more and all it has done is given the team some
questionable backups and FA failures.
If they do the same this year then we will know they don't really believe we are close and it's another sales job from Pete.

Yeah we are a long ways from 1 or 2 guys making us a playoff team, especially in our division.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah we are a long ways from 1 or 2 guys making us a playoff team, especially in our division.

I get the doom and gloom . But I’m not feeling it. I feel like after 2004 into 2005 I just felt it . That’s the year I met up with Whatsyourprob. I feel like I did after 2012 and the last second loss to Atlanta . The last few weeks of 21 I saw a balanced but explosive offense , a pass rush coming to life , a secondary demonstrating great depth and good talent . a QB back to playing like a pro bowl qb.
We swept the 9ers . Split with AZ whose coach is looking light in the loafers and the little midget is spinning out mentally and getting beat up physically . We gotta solve the Rams . Or more correctly Russ has to solve the Rams . They are his kryptonite . To solve them we need our offense to be what it was at seasons end and problem solved . That means the 2 most important FAs on offense are Penney and Phil Haynes. We need diggs back . We need Russ bought in and healthy . But it’s clear with all the new young blood on the staff they aren’t getting paid to just answer to Pete. His replacement might be on this staff now . I think Seattle will be players in FA outside their own roster and who knows in the draft . Not a draft guru but have heard deep in line talent.
I wouldn’t be shocked to see us win this division next year .

[RiverDog]

Yeah we are a long ways from 1 or 2 guys making us a playoff team, especially in our division.

I get the doom and gloom . But I’m not feeling it. I feel like after 2004 into 2005 I just felt it . That’s the year I met up with Whatsyourprob. I feel like I did after 2012 and the last second loss to Atlanta . The last few weeks of 21 I saw a balanced but explosive offense , a pass rush coming to life , a secondary demonstrating great depth and good talent . a QB back to playing like a pro bowl qb.

We swept the 9ers . Split with AZ whose coach is looking light in the loafers and the little midget is spinning out mentally and getting beat up physically . We gotta solve the Rams . Or more correctly Russ has to solve the Rams . They are his kryptonite . To solve them we need our offense to be what it was at seasons end and problem solved . That means the 2 most important FAs on offense are Penney and Phil Haynes. We need diggs back . We need Russ bought in and healthy . But it’s clear with all the new young blood on the staff they aren’t getting paid to just answer to Pete. His replacement might be on this staff now . I think Seattle will be players in FA outside their own roster and who knows in the draft . Not a draft guru but have heard deep in line talent.

I wouldn’t be shocked to see us win this division next year .

Those seasons were quite a bit different than this year. In 2004, we were 9-7 after losing a lot of very close games, won our division, then lost another close game in the playoffs when the surest handed receiver on our team dropped an easy TD pass. I remember it as the season of dropped passes, with DJack and KRob having a contest each game to see who could drop the easiest, most consequential ball. It had followed a season when we were 10-6 and were bounced from the playoffs in overtime in the infamous "we want the ball and we're gonna score!" game.

In 2012, I felt that we were clearly the best team in the conference, having just gotten through b**** slapping the eventual conference champ Niners on national TV in a overhyped game with a playoff feel to it. We were blowing out teams by 3 TD's, finishing the regular season 11-5 winning our last 5 straight and 7 of our last 8, won a road playoff game before losing in the final 30 seconds on a 49 yard FG.

Contrast those two seasons with this year where we lost 5 of our last 9 down the stretch of a soft schedule that included some horrible teams like the Texans, Lions, WFT, and the rapidly imploding Cards not to mention a home loss to the dead from the neck up Bears, sucking hind boobie in our division, and at 7-10, our first losing season in over a decade. Based on our results, we're not on an even glide path to the top.

Plus we're in a division where all 3 teams made the playoffs with two of them advancing to the NFCCG and one winning the Lombardi, and we have some major uncertainty about our franchise QB. Even if the trade rumors aren't true, you yourself have never hesitated to remind us that there's a good Russ and there's a bad Russ. Which one suits up in 2022, assuming that he's still with us? We had no such question marks in 2004 or 2012.

Obviously, there's a glass half full take that sees things from a different POV that what I've described above and like you, feel that we do have an opportunity to get things turned around rather quickly especially given how dynamic the league is nowadays. But nor do I get the feeling that we're just a player or two away from a Lombardi like I did in 2004 and 2012. We have major problems on the offensive and defensive lines that needs to be fixed, and without a first round pick, we'll be hard pressed to find the impact players we need for such a quick turnaround.

[Hawktawk]

I get all that . But Cincy was a play from a Lombardi with the worst O line in the league . Rams were a dropped pick from possible defeat . In the NFC there is great parity . We can say we lost 5 of 9 or we can say we won 4 of our last 6 , should have definitely been 5 of 6 with the Bears fiasco . And our maligned defense held the Rams to 10 points for much of the game as Russ had a typical dreadful game vs them . Even then a no call on a pass interference or who knows about that one . We were 0-5 in games decided by 3 points or less and Russ should not have been playing in a couple , then had to heal . At seasons end we were playing as well as anyone in the conference . It will be interesting to see what happens in FA especially our guys and the draft but yeah , I’m feeling it . At my age maybe it’s gas but I feel something is brewing with this team . I feel way better then after Green Bay etc.

[RiverDog]

I get all that . But Cincy was a play from a Lombardi with the worst O line in the league . Rams were a dropped pick from possible defeat . In the NFC there is great parity . We can say we lost 5 of 9 or we can say we won 4 of our last 6 , should have definitely been 5 of 6 with the Bears fiasco . And our maligned defense held the Rams to 10 points for much of the game as Russ had a typical dreadful game vs them . Even then a no call on a pass interference or who knows about that one . We were 0-5 in games decided by 3 points or less and Russ should not have been playing in a couple , then had to heal . At seasons end we were playing as well as anyone in the conference . It will be interesting to see what happens in FA especially our guys and the draft but yeah , I’m feeling it . At my age maybe it’s gas but I feel something is brewing with this team . I feel way better then after Green Bay etc.

What Cincy did this season was pretty rare, if not unprecedented. How many times has a team won just 4 games in one season and came as close to winning it all as they did the following year? They were emblematic of the type of season it was, unpredictable and dynamic, with almost all of the playoff games, including the Super Bowl, going down to the last minute. Whether this past season was an anomaly or the start of a trend remains to be seen.

[TriCitySam]

I'm more with Hawktawk on this, mainly because a) we have some real core talent, b) I think these last 2 draft classes are really developing and 3) we played even in our division, and nobody - not even the Rams - dominated. So, we have a real chance to compete for the top spot, benefited by strength of scheudule.

[RiverDog]

I'm more with Hawktawk on this, mainly because a) we have some real core talent, b) I think these last 2 draft classes are really developing and 3) we played even in our division, and nobody - not even the Rams - dominated. So, we have a real chance to compete for the top spot, benefited by strength of scheudule.

About 3/4 of the league can 'compete for the top spot.' and can justifiably say that they have draft classes that are "really developing". The problem is that we haven't changed anything from what we've been doing over the course of the last 7 seasons, yet this season, we somehow expect the results to be different.

I'm not necessarily pessimistic, but I want to see something other than throwing a couple of assistant coaches into the volcano, a ritual that has become an annual event.

[TriCitySam]

About 3/4 of the league can 'compete for the top spot.' and can justifiably say that they have draft classes that are "really developing". The problem is that we haven't changed anything from what we've been doing over the course of the last 7 seasons, yet this season, we somehow expect the results to be different.

I'm not necessarily pessimistic, but I want to see something other than throwing a couple of assistant coaches into the volcano, a ritual that has become an annual event.

Sorry, I don't agree with that assessment at all. They're not standing pat. The coaching changes are very positive, much more dramatic than we've seen in 4 or 5 years....and since nothing as happened yet in FA or the draft, pretty impossible to say that nothing's changed there. The last two drafts will likely produce at lease 2 PB caliber players, and that is not average. But your partially right, about 1/2 the league can compete.....and if RW stays healthy, so can we.

[RiverDog]

About 3/4 of the league can 'compete for the top spot.' and can justifiably say that they have draft classes that are "really developing". The problem is that we haven't changed anything from what we've been doing over the course of the last 7 seasons, yet this season, we somehow expect the results to be different.

I'm not necessarily pessimistic, but I want to see something other than throwing a couple of assistant coaches into the volcano, a ritual that has become an annual event.

Sorry, I don't agree with that assessment at all. They're not standing pat. The coaching changes are very positive, much more dramatic than we've seen in 4 or 5 years....and since nothing as happened yet in FA or the draft, pretty impossible to say that nothing's changed there. The last two drafts will likely produce at lease 2 PB caliber players, and that is not average. But your partially right, about 1/2 the league can compete.....and if RW stays healthy, so can we.

At this point, all the coaching changes represent are names on a piece of paper. This is still Pete's team, and until he shows some willingness to change his approach, something that we haven't seen in any of his previous coaching changes, I don't expect to see a significant improvement in our results...unless you're the type that thinks simply making the playoffs represents a significant improvement.

Only about half the league can compete? In the 16 team AFC, there was only a 2.5 game difference between the #1 seeded Titans and the #7 seed Steelers. The NFC saw the #6 seeded 49'ers beating the top seeded Packers on their home field. I'd say all 14 of those playoff teams are "competitive", wouldn't you? Then toss in teams like the Vikings, Saints, and WFT, all teams that we lost to, plus the Chargers, Colts, Ravens, Browns, and Dolphins, all teams that had a better season than we did, and out of the 32 teams, I count 22 teams that have just as much of a claim to competitiveness as we do.

Last season was unique in all of the years I've been watching football. Even the horrifically bad teams, like the Jags and Lions, pulled off some titanic upsets. The playoffs featured more competitive games than I've ever witnessed in one season. The difference between the good and the bad is as small of a margin as I've ever seen it. That alone gives us hope for a short turnaround, but by the same token, it also shows that there's not a lot of margin for error.

[Hawktawk]

But Cincy was a play from a Lombardi with the worst O line in the league .

What Cincy did this season was pretty rare, if not unprecedented. How many times has a team won just 4 games in one season and came as close to winning it all as they did the following year? They were emblematic of the type of season it was, unpredictable and dynamic, with almost all of the playoff games, including the Super Bowl, going down to the last minute. Whether this past season was an anomaly or the start of a trend remains to be seen.

Joe Burrow blew out his knee after 4 games last year . Earlier this season he had to adjust to coming back from injury . But they went to the super bowl because Burrow led the league in completion percentage , qbr , qbr on contested throws while throwing for 4700 yards and 34 TDs. That was the difference .

[NorthHawk]

I’m in agreement with RD.
Teams win because of better talent and our talent level has fallen off the last 7 or so years.
We may have the talent to have a winning record and that’s fine if your goal is to not have a
losing season, but if you want an honest chance at winning it all you need to be strong everywhere.
Our OL has never been a strong point under this regime but it has even regressed since the trade
of Unger and our DL hasn’t been rebuilt after the losses of Avril, Bennett, and others and that’s where
teams win by controlling the LoS.
For us to truly improve to the point of being a serious contender the FO has to get some FA’s that can
make a difference along with a draft that brings a couple of starters.
Unfortunately recent history doesn’t suggest we will be successful in either considering what we’ve done
the last 7 years or thereabouts.
But in sports odd things happen so there is a small chance.

[RiverDog]

But Cincy was a play from a Lombardi with the worst O line in the league .

What Cincy did this season was pretty rare, if not unprecedented. How many times has a team won just 4 games in one season and came as close to winning it all as they did the following year? They were emblematic of the type of season it was, unpredictable and dynamic, with almost all of the playoff games, including the Super Bowl, going down to the last minute. Whether this past season was an anomaly or the start of a trend remains to be seen.

Joe Burrow blew out his knee after 4 games last year . Earlier this season he had to adjust to coming back from injury . But they went to the super bowl because Burrow led the league in completion percentage , qbr , qbr on contested throws while throwing for 4700 yards and 34 TDs. That was the difference .

Boy, Hawktalk, once a player flicks your Bic, you never let go of him. Now "Joe Cool" has such a grip on you that you're grossly misstating facts relating to him.

First of all, Burrow didn't get hurt in Game 4 last season, he was hurt in Game 10:

Joe Burrow tore the anterior cruciate ligament and medial collateral ligament in his left knee in his 10th game last season

read://https_sports.yahoo.com/?url=http ... 25463.html

Big difference.

Secondly, the Bengals were 2-7-1 after their first 10 games, so Burrow hadn't learned how to walk on water yet. Plus at 2-4, they had a better results AFTER he went down than they did before, so his going down wasn't the difference in their 2020 season. And lastly, Burrow finished 2020 ranked 24th in both passer rating and QBR, 22nd in completion percentage, so he definitely hadn't attained the deity status that you've adorned him with over the past few weeks.

Burrow had a great season and is a fine quarterback and may eventually take his place with the other great, young QB's around the league like Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Hebert, Mac Jones, et al, but he's not MVP quality yet and won't be until he learns how to deal with a pass rush and/or the Bengals figure out how to do a better job of protecting him. He took a league high 51 sacks last season, and that's not counting the playoffs where he took 19.

[govandals]

I try to be optimistic this time of year. It's fun to go through possible scenarios of adding players through the draft/FA. However, Pete's track record lately has made me quite the pessimist.

All the media reports of Desai and Hurtt having some control of game planning and player acquisition is nothing but lip service right now. I wanna see results!

By my count, 8 of the 22 starters on this team are UFA's. All those FA dollars will go quickly. I don't see room for a big splash in FA, MAYBE if they cut Wagner. Add to that a looming extension for DK who is a UFA after 2022.

[RiverDog]

I try to be optimistic this time of year. It's fun to go through possible scenarios of adding players through the draft/FA. However, Pete's track record lately has made me quite the pessimist.

All the media reports of Desai and Hurtt having some control of game planning and player acquisition is nothing but lip service right now. I wanna see results!

By my count, 8 of the 22 starters on this team are UFA's. All those FA dollars will go quickly. I don't see room for a big splash in FA, MAYBE if they cut Wagner. Add to that a looming extension for DK who is a UFA after 2022.

I agree completely. It's way too early to show justifiable optimism beyond the standard "wait until next year!" as we don't know what our roster is going to look like, who we might bring in, and who we might let go. We've changed coordinators before and it didn't result in any improvement, just a maintaining of the status quo. I fail to see what the difference these changes make vs. the firing Richard and our bringing in Norton a few years ago. The only way we'll be able to determine if these changes will make any meaningful difference is when we see the finished product on the field.

Our 4th place schedule and the fact that the league was so dynamic this season are better reasons to be optimistic than anything that has happened to our team since the end of the regular season.

[Hawktawk]

Boy, Hawktalk, once a player flicks your Bic, you never let go of him. Now "Joe Cool" has such a grip on you that you're grossly misstating facts relating to him.

First of all, Burrow didn't get hurt in Game 4 last season, he was hurt in Game 10:

Joe Burrow tore the anterior cruciate ligament and medial collateral ligament in his left knee in his 10th game last season

read://https_sports.yahoo.com/?url=http ... 25463.html

Big difference.

Secondly, the Bengals were 2-7-1 after their first 10 games, so Burrow hadn't learned how to walk on water yet. Plus at 2-4, they had a better results AFTER he went down than they did before, so his going down wasn't the difference in their 2020 season. And lastly, Burrow finished 2020 ranked 24th in both passer rating and QBR, 22nd in completion percentage, so he definitely hadn't attained the deity status that you've adorned him with over the past few weeks.

Burrow had a great season and is a fine quarterback and may eventually take his place with the other great, young QB's around the league like Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Hebert, Mac Jones, et al, but he's not MVP quality yet and won't be until he learns how to deal with a pass rush and/or the Bengals figure out how to do a better job of protecting him. He took a league high 51 sacks last season, and that's not counting the playoffs where he took 19.

""My bad on last year I got # of wins confused with the injury. Shouldn't be spitting stuff on here off the top of my head after a martini Im not backing off any assessment I've made about the play of any player good or bad.Nor changing my flamboyant writing style . No matter how much it apparently bugs you. Its what it is."

"I would have to see the stats for last year to see what kind of player he was then.I know they play the browns Ravens and Steelers 2 times a season.Also joining a 1 win team with a 30 something year old second year coach.

But thats not now. The league leading categories are what they are. Jamaar Chase was a huge add and they have the potential to be one of those all time QB receiver combinations. He went off for 280 of Burrows 525 4 TD no pick strafing NFL record over Baltimore and then another 446 and 4 touches vs KC to get the division."That set another record of back to back games with 400 yards plus and 4 TDs. Just under 1 K passing with 8 TDs and no picks to close out the regular season. Yeah he had an OK year

" The line is one of the worst in pass blocking in the league. You say hes got to stop taking sacks I think hes got to be protected and using the KC game as an example he was only sacked once but took a pounding and saved the game with 3 long scrambles on 3rd downs, high stepping out of a tackle on one which saved the game as his line was shot. Taking 9 sacks vs the #1 seed and Vrabel dialing up every thing in the book. Threw a perfect dime to win it."
"In the super bowl he was sacked 7 times and hit and hurried many more in the game including the last play. But he and Chase hung up 160 on Ramsey(most hes ever given up) and had them beat for the game winner with Ramsay falling on his face when the real MVP made a play. As it was Burrow got the ball to the outlet who dropped it."

" After that game PFF gave his line the worst grade of any line in the league in any game in the entire season. As it was ,still 1 play away from it all. We cant have it both ways. there is a difference between taking a sack and getting sacked. Ask Russ hes gotten sacked and taken more sacks than anyone the last 10 seasons. Is he an OK QB?Why does Burrow take sacks and Russ just needs a better line?

Time will tell. My guess there might be 6 or 7 GMs in the league that wouldn't trade their guy for him right now, maybe less.
You underestimate the guys play, its record breaking potential. And unlike a certain Rb with similar potential he has a pretty solid body of work.

[RiverDog]

""My bad on last year I got # of wins confused with the injury. Shouldn't be spitting stuff on here off the top of my head after a martini Im not backing off any assessment I've made about the play of any player good or bad.Nor changing my flamboyant writing style . No matter how much it apparently bugs you. Its what it is."

Your style doesn't bug me at all, to the contrary. You've always added a certain amount of color to this forum and it wouldn't be the same if you changed your style. I get a kick out of your preoccupation with the most recent shiny objects.

"I would have to see the stats for last year to see what kind of player he was then.I know they play the browns Ravens and Steelers 2 times a season.Also joining a 1 win team with a 30 something year old second year coach.

They weren't horrible, but they likely wouldn't have been enough to earn him a 2nd contract had he maintained that level through his 4 year rookie deal. IMO had he not had a breakout season this year, he would have eventually ended up like Jake Locker.

But thats not now. The league leading categories are what they are. Jamaar Chase was a huge add and they have the potential to be one of those all time QB receiver combinations. He went off for 280 of Burrows 525 4 TD no pick strafing NFL record over Baltimore and then another 446 and 4 touches vs KC to get the division."That set another record of back to back games with 400 yards plus and 4 TDs.

" The line is one of the worst in pass blocking in the league. You say hes got to stop taking sacks I think hes got to be protected and using the KC game as an example he was only sacked once but took a pounding and saved the game with 3 long scrambles on 3rd downs, high stepping out of a tackle on one which saved the game as his line was shot. Taking 9 sacks vs the #1 seed and Vrabel dialing up every thing in the book. Threw a perfect dime to win it."
"In the super bowl he was sacked 7 times and hit and hurried many more in the game including the last play. But he and Chase hung up 160 on Ramsey(most hes ever given up) and had them beat for the game winner with Ramsay falling on his face when the real MVP made a play. As it was Burrow got the ball to the outlet who dropped it."

" After that game PFF gave his line the worst grade of any line in the league in any game in the entire season. As it was ,still 1 play away from it all. We cant have it both ways. there is a difference between taking a sack and getting sacked. Ask Russ hes gotten sacked and taken more sacks than anyone the last 10 seasons. Is he an OK QB?Why does Burrow take sacks and Russ just needs a better line?

Time will tell. My guess there might be 6 or 7 GMs in the league that wouldn't trade their guy for him right now, maybe less.
You underestimate the guys play, its record breaking potential. And unlike a certain Rb with similar potential he has a pretty solid body of work.

One attribute of quarterback play that's almost impossible to quantify is the number of sacks they take. Obviously, there's a lot of things beyond their control, with offensive line play and play design entering into the equation. There are things like audibles, utilizing the pocket, having a 6th sense as to when to break the pocket and when to step up, when to try to save a play, when to throw it away and live for another down. There's no doubt that the Bengals offensive line bears a very large responsibility for the inordinate amount of sacks Burrow gave up this season, but anytime you give up as many as he did, it becomes apparent that the QB is responsible for a good number of them. Lots of quarterbacks have played very well despite not having the best of OL's in front of them.

A lot of folks in here, including the two of us, have harped on Russell for taking the number of sacks that he does and for not owning up to his role in them. We should be applying the same critique to Burrow as we have with Russell.

[NorthHawk]

The Bengals made a decision last year that a WR who was a stud in college with Burrow would pay bigger returns than a stud Tackle (was it Sewell?).
It seems to have worked out pretty well, but the right side of their OL needs upgrading. Their 2nd round pick was an OT who played in 17 games last year but only started in 6.
I don't know whether he got hurt or wasn't producing well enough to continue but he is now listed as a Guard on the Bengals website. As he's a rookie he might have been
overmatched at times as he develops so if he plays RG then he might be improved this upcoming year and years to come. That being said, they have to protect Burrow more
if they want a Franchise QB for more than just a few years due to injury.

[Hawktawk]

Burrow can’t get hit like that . But if I had to describe him I’d say he’s a blend of Brady and Manning in terms of arm talent , leadership and charisma . Physique wise as well , very similar . A bit more nimble but not enough for that line . I think if they keep him standing up he will have a hell of a career . If they don’t he can’t sustain it forever . My guess that team will be a huge player in the O line market . It’s set up well for them next year . Steelers need a QB. Lamar Jackson is breaking down in Baltimore and they crushed them last year anyway . Then the Browns with all their questions . I could see Cincy having a run in division next few years .

[RiverDog]

Burrow can’t get hit like that . But if I had to describe him I’d say he’s a blend of Brady and Manning in terms of arm talent , leadership and charisma . Physique wise as well , very similar . A bit more nimble but not enough for that line . I think if they keep him standing up he will have a hell of a career . If they don’t he can’t sustain it forever . My guess that team will be a huge player in the O line market . It’s set up well for them next year . Steelers need a QB. Lamar Jackson is breaking down in Baltimore and they crushed them last year anyway . Then the Browns with all their questions . I could see Cincy having a run in division next few years .

There's more variables to Burrow's having a "hell of a career" than simply keeping him standing up. He's going to have to grow, learn to adapt as defenses start to get wise to his tendencies. There's been a lot of quarterbacks that had one or two great seasons, Cam Newton is one that comes to mind. He's had one good run and will need a lot more before we can break out the anointing oil.

Weren't you also at one time totally enamored with Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel in much the same fashion that you've now fell in love with Joe Cool? Or am I thinking of someone else?

[Hawktawk]

I don’t recall being particularly enamored with Manziel but I’ll go to my grave believing Tebow could start and win in the nfl. He got blackballed for his faith , his kneeling to praise god instead of trash cops , his rabid posse demanding he start . He had too many chefs trying to fix his arm motion which really hurt .but he won a division and a home playoff game in his only starting year taking over an 0-5 team . Tebow got hosed .

Elway brought in Manning who got beat at home his first year and got crushed by the Lob his second . In 2015 they won a super bowl with him going 1-14 on 3rd down with his noodle post HGH scandal arm .

Since then? It’s been the curse of Tebow .

Elway despised Tebow , was jealous of his adulation in Denver . He traded him to a team with another coach the toe sucking perv Ryan who hated the clean cut Tebow . He refused to give him a start. Tebow got Kapped, in a far different way . It’s a mistake that was made when you look at the league to say he was not one of the 30 best players at the position . No more so than by John Elway who couldn’t set his ego aside .

Burrows is already considered one of the top 10 or better QBs in the league by the experts . He’s generally ranked ahead of Russ .he outplayed Mahomes twice in a month . As I say his numbers including record performances tell me barring injury he’s not going to have much trouble adjusting to anyone . Like I say he hung well over 200 passing yards targeting arguably the best corner in the game . Had him beat again if not for Donald . I stand by my analysis of his potential. you will never hear this kid whine about getting hit or be complacent . He led the league in every meaningful statistic with no line coming off a horrific injury you pointed out was fairly late in his first season . Barring injury he’s gonna be really really good for a while .

[RiverDog]

I don’t recall being particularly enamored with Manziel but I’ll go to my grave believing Tebow could start and win in the nfl. He got blackballed for his faith , his kneeling to praise god instead of trash cops , his rabid posse demanding he start . He had too many chefs trying to fix his arm motion which really hurt .but he won a division and a home playoff game in his only starting year taking over an 0-5 team . Tebow got hosed .

Elway brought in Manning who got beat at home his first year and got crushed by the Lob his second . In 2015 they won a super bowl with him going 1-14 on 3rd down with his noodle post HGH scandal arm .

Since then? It’s been the curse of Tebow .

Elway despised Tebow , was jealous of his adulation in Denver . He traded him to a team with another coach the toe sucking perv Ryan who hated the clean cut Tebow . He refused to give him a start. Tebow got Kapped, in a far different way . It’s a mistake that was made when you look at the league to say he was not one of the 30 best players at the position . No more so than by John Elway who couldn’t set his ego aside .

Burrows is already considered one of the top 10 or better QBs in the league by the experts . He’s generally ranked ahead of Russ .he outplayed Mahomes twice in a month . As I say his numbers including record performances tell me barring injury he’s not going to have much trouble adjusting to anyone . Like I say he hung well over 200 passing yards targeting arguably the best corner in the game . Had him beat again if not for Donald . I stand by my analysis of his potential. you will never hear this kid whine about getting hit or be complacent . He led the league in every meaningful statistic with no line coming off a horrific injury you pointed out was fairly late in his first season . Barring injury he’s gonna be really really good for a while .

I'm not sure why Elway would consent to trading up in the first for Tebow if he was jealous of him or had some sort of bias against him due to his faith. Plus the Broncos weren't the only team in the league that decided that he wasn't NFL material. He fizzled with the Jets, Patriots, and Eagles, too. Tebow was a bust.

[Hawktawk]

Was Elway in charge when Tebow was drafted ? Not sure about that . Even so Tebows last year there when he won the division and outplayed Big Ben in the playoff win in Denver every big play he made Elway would frown , say negative stuff after wins . If you look at Elways and Tebows stats early in their career in Denver it’s eerily similar other than Tebow had success his first year.

[RiverDog]

Was Elway in charge when Tebow was drafted ? Not sure about that . Even so Tebows last year there when he won the division and outplayed Big Ben in the playoff win in Denver every big play he made Elway would frown , say negative stuff after wins . If you look at Elways and Tebows stats early in their career in Denver it’s eerily similar other than Tebow had success his first year.

I think you're right. Elway was hired the year after Tebow was drafted.

But nevertheless, I regard your opinion as to why Tebow was let go as highly unlikely. Tebow was immensely popular with a large segment of fans, was on the air on ESPN, NFL Network, Sirius XM, almost nonstop during that period of time. If anything, his faith was a plus. I personally didn't care for him as he reminded me of these guys in white shirts, black slacks, and backpacks hammering on my door and wanting to shove pamphlets in my face, of which I've had a number of negative experiences with. But he was very popular and drew a lot of fans to the Broncos, sold a lot of jerseys, had players adopting his "Tebowed" end zone prayers.

The other fact that's hard to reconcile with your theory is that Tebow was given opportunities with 3 other teams besides the Broncos and couldn't make their rosters. Were they, too, biased against him due to his faith?

[Hawktawk]

The trade to the jets was the end for Tebow . The Jets owner wanted him to clean up the image of the team . Rex Ryan’s mini scandal being identified as a man sharing videos of him sucking his wife’s toes and speaking suggestively to the internet was one of the distractions at the time. Ryan didn’t want him. Ryan refused to play Tebow at all despite a lackluster roster . I don’t believe he started him a single time but was just given a trick play here and there which normally failed since everyone knew it was coming when he was sent in .

He leaked stories of Tebow being a bad teammate and not having good practice habits . As a fan of Tebow from day one I was paying attention . Tebow was basically poison after that even though he performed well in 2 other preseasons including making it to the final cutdown . If I recall his last TC he completed somewhere around 65% of his passes after working on an NFL stroke .

The guy was a winner when he had a chance . I think had he not had a GM named John Elway he’d have won a lot and had a long career there . Elway hated everything about him , especially seeing a big physical moose running over people and making last second saves , getting the adulation from fans that only one other Denver QB ever got . Manning’s decision to become a free agent gave Elway the perfect off ramp to avoid criticism for dumping a fan icon . He reportedly was not Manning’s first choice but made such an overwhelming offer Manning couldn’t turn it down .


I know it’s not knowable but taking into account that Tebow had already won a playoff game and gone 8-3 in the regular season in 2011 .it was a good team . So what would happen with Tebow in 12 on that team . We know Manning played miserably and lost to the Ravens on a late pick in a blizzard at home . Would a big running QB with another year under his belt in the same system he falling down curling up in a ball under pressure or throwing it up for grabs ?

How about SB 48? I don’t think anyone was beating Seattle that night but Manning was bad , a sitting duck . Lost in the first round in 14 at home to the colts . Finally win one totally with defense in 15 as the Manning HGH story was in full bloom . Then since 15??? Paxton Lynch , Trevor Simian, Drew Lock , Teddy Bridgewater .are any of those guys better than Tebow?

I’ll submit had John Elway not had a jealousy issue Tebow might well still be there . It’s just a game of what if .

[RiverDog]

The trade to the jets was the end for Tebow . The Jets owner wanted him to clean up the image of the team . Rex Ryan’s mini scandal being identified as a man sharing videos of him sucking his wife’s toes and speaking suggestively to the internet was one of the distractions at the time. Ryan didn’t want him. Ryan refused to play Tebow at all despite a lackluster roster . I don’t believe he started him a single time but was just given a trick play here and there which normally failed since everyone knew it was coming when he was sent in.

No, it wasn't the end for Tebow. After he was cut by the Jets, he was signed by the Patriots and reunited with Josh McDaniels, the guy that thought so much of him that as Bronco's HC, traded up in the first round for him. Tebow was given a chance as he played in the preseason for the Pats, but he played poorly:

Tebow played in the first two of New England's preseason games, against the Eagles and the Buccaneers; he completed just five passes in both games, was sacked several times and intercepted once, intensifying criticism of his football acumen. He went 6-for-11 for 91 yards, throwing a pair of touchdown passes and one interception, and gained 30 yards on six carries against the New York Giants, but he also was sacked four times. He threw a total of two touchdown passes and two interceptions in the preseason and had a passer rating of 47.2 and completed 36.7% of his passes. He was released from the Patriots on August 31, 2013, the day NFL teams were required to cut their rosters to 53.

Then two years later, he signed with the Eagles and got a forth chance:

Tebow signed a one-year contract with the Philadelphia Eagles on April 20, 2015, and he was in competition with Matt Barkley for the Eagles third-string quarterback job. Tebow played all four games in the preseason with no starts, going 21-of-36 for 286 yards, two touchdowns, and one interception, while rushing for 82 yards and a touchdown. He was released by the team on September 5, following the fourth preseason game.

Tebow wasn't blackballed because of his religion. To the contrary, his draft status, name recognition, and Heisman Trophy earned him one helluva lot more opportunities than he would have otherwise had. His critics rightfully pointed out flaws in his mechanics, that he did not have the quick release necessary to be successful as an NFL quarterback. He had multiple opportunities given to him to prove his worth and he couldn't do it.

[NorthHawk]

The problem with Tebow was he was not a good thrower of the ball and in his time at QB didn't make good decisions on a regular basis.
He would be great in a Veer Offense, but the NFL values its QBs and pays them too much to get them beat up early in the year.

[RiverDog]

The problem with Tebow was he was not a good thrower of the ball and in his time at QB didn't make good decisions on a regular basis.
He would be great in a Veer Offense, but the NFL values its QBs and pays them too much to get them beat up early in the year.

Yep. I remember the debates well. Tebow had this long, deliberate wind up to his throwing motion, struggled with the quick sideline throws, allowing cornerbacks to jump the route. Multiple coaches worked with him to try to improve his mechanics. I think Cbob speculated that Tebow developed this habit as a baseball pitcher. I was shocked when Denver not only took him in the first round but traded up to get him. It undoubtedly was one of the moves that cost Josh McDaniel his job.

Tebow might have fared better in the offenses that we've seen over the past 6-8 years that feature quarterbacks like Mahomes, Allen, Murray, Jackson, et al, but that long, slow delivery would still have been his Achilles heel IMO.

[Hawktawk]

How the hell do we go from draft and FA to Tebow ? Because I always take the bait . Tebow was not beating out Brady . Looking at Chip Kelly’s record at Philly not a lot of his decision making proves anything . He won in Denver . Won a playoff game . He worked on his stroke which was great in college but too slow for the pros in the opinion of pro coaches . The meddling put his arm in no mans land . He completed something like 70% in college .

Go back and compare his one year starting in Denver with Elways rookie year that included lining up behind a guard .Elway wasn’t super accurate and made many big plays running around and launching with a powerful arm after the defense broke down . I saw it many times unfortunately . Similar games .
The Broncos were Tebow home . He was adored by the fans .He was a first round pick coming off a 9-4 season and a playoff win and the responsible thing would have been to develop him .
Elway screwed him .

[RiverDog]

How the hell do we go from draft and FA to Tebow ? Because I always take the bait.

Yes, my friend, like a moth to a flame!

Tebow was not beating out Brady . Looking at Chip Kelly’s record at Philly not a lot of his decision making proves anything . He won in Denver . Won a playoff game . He worked on his stroke which was great in college but too slow for the pros in the opinion of pro coaches . The meddling put his arm in no mans land . He completed something like 70% in college.

He wasn't brought in to beat out Brady. He was brought in to back him up, provide a change of pace option due to his running ability. And for Tebow personally, it was a chance to resurrect his career. If he played well, he would have been marketable, could have signed with a team that would allow him to compete for the starting job.

Kelly's offense with the Eagles should have been perfect for Tebow as it was a college style spread with similarities to what Urban Meyer ran at Florida when Tebow played there. From when Kelly was coaching in his brief stint the Niners:

The second-round pick in the 2014 draft, Carlos Hyde played at Ohio State in head coach (and former Florida head coach) Urban Meyer’s spread offense and will easily transition to Chip Kelly’s version of it.

Tebow is not the first quarterback to do well in the colleges, even win Heisman trophies, yet bust in the pros. One of my favorite Seahawk trivia questions is who is the only Heisman trophy winner to play quarterback for the Hawks? Answer: Gino Torretta.

Go back and compare his one year starting in Denver with Elways rookie year that included lining up behind a guard .Elway wasn’t super accurate and made many big plays running around and launching with a powerful arm after the defense broke down . I saw it many times unfortunately . Similar games .
The Broncos were Tebow home . He was adored by the fans .He was a first round pick coming off a 9-4 season and a playoff win and the responsible thing would have been to develop him .
Elway screwed him .

I might be more sensitive to your argument if not for the fact that not one, not two, but THREE other teams gave Tebow a shot yet he failed.

[Hawktawk]

He had no shot with the Jets . Got no shot at all . Completed 6 of 8 passes in the entire season despite a sad roster . It wasn’t a chance it was a banishment and Elway knew it.

The fact Belichick even brought him in tells me he respected him . That actuality says something .

As for Kelley Tebow played well , threw the ball well and rushed for 83 yards and Kelley kept Barkley Mmmhhmm. What did Barkley do in the league or Chip Kelley for that matter ? Like I say Kelley was a bust worse than Tebow . At least Tebow won Nattys in college .

And for the record John Elway threw 7 TDs and 14 picks and won 4 games as a rookie, completed around 50% of his passes and lined up behind a guard . He’s lucky he didn’t have himself for a GM or he’d have been traded for Marino .

For his career he completed 56% of his passes and his qbr is in the 70s , 90 something all time qbr. But he still win a lot and threw 300 TDs . Why ? Because he was a big athletic guy with a cannon arm who ran around and beat people as we both saw.

Tebow was the closest thing to a second Elway Denver ever saw . But only for a while and Elway killed his career unfairly . I will let it go but it’s so frustrating online .

My point is had he stayed in Denver with a GM that liked him he would have only gotten better . He’s a positive minded never say die winner , much like a young Russ . He is an excellent analyst who would have improved at reading the field etc .
I laugh at Denver’s futility since the forehead retired . If they never made the playoffs again I’d love it . I hated the hypocrisy of Elway , thought considerably less of him after and my opinion continues to decline . He traded far and away the best QB Denver has drafted in the last 15 years who might still be there eating up Elways records .

I am done . It’s what if. No way to know but I know since 2015 the QB stable in Denver has been a dumpster fire . And I love it

[RiverDog]

For his career he (Tebow) completed 56% of his passes and his qbr is in the 70s , 90 something all time qbr. But he still win a lot and threw 300 TDs . Why ? Because he was a big athletic guy with a cannon arm who ran around and beat people as we both saw.

You must be talking about his college stats as his NFL stats aren't anywhere close to those numbers.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... boTi00.htm

My point is had he stayed in Denver with a GM that liked him he would have only gotten better . He’s a positive minded never say die winner , much like a young Russ . He is an excellent analyst who would have improved at reading the field etc .

Your point is truly laughable.

Tim Tebow's NFL career completion percentage over the 3 years he was on NFL rosters was 47.9%, which included a 47.3% completion percentage in his time with the Broncos, the team you said screwed him over because of his religious beliefs. No wonder he didn't make it. No quarterback is going to stay in the league very long when they complete less than 50% of their passes. Had it not been for his running ability and potential to play another position, he wouldn't have gotten the shots that he did.

[Aseahawkfan]

Tebow did seem like a good guy. But he was a freak show athlete whose game only did well in college when his athletic prowess at QB was far ahead of the people he faced. Freak show athleticism doesn't get you much at the NFL level where everyone is a freak show athlete. You're just another guy at that point if you can't quickly process the field and make plays against complex NFL defenses who are taking away everything you want to do while the fastest, largest freak show athlete pass rushers are barreling down on you looking to put you on your ass as painfully as the rules allow.

[c_hawkbob]

Tebow wasn't a freakshow athlete, he was a strong, smart kid with a reasonable arm and good speed and a decent head on his shoulders. What separated him from the pack in college (making him one of the greatest college players ever) was his heart and his will to win. Those attributes stood him well in the pros but were not enough to separate him amongst other pros as was the case in college. If he'd have been willing to try TE earlier in his career we may be talking about him as a perennial pro bowler, but that willingness came way too late.

I have a friend that grew up with Tebow (played with him in HS and college) and also played Div 1 baseball with Russ. I asked him straight up who the better athlete was and he said their is no comparison, Wilson by far. He said Tebow was a tank, stronger than you and more determined than you but Russ was a Ferrari, lightning fast, agile and could do anything he wanted athletically. Russel Wilson is the freakshow athlete.

[RiverDog]

Tebow did seem like a good guy. But he was a freak show athlete whose game only did well in college when his athletic prowess at QB was far ahead of the people he faced. Freak show athleticism doesn't get you much at the NFL level where everyone is a freak show athlete. You're just another guy at that point if you can't quickly process the field and make plays against complex NFL defenses who are taking away everything you want to do while the fastest, largest freak show athlete pass rushers are barreling down on you looking to put you on your ass as painfully as the rules allow.

Obi would say of him that he looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane.

Tebow's biggest problem was the mechanics on his delivery, and it was identified early on during his college career. It's not something that can easily be changed as it has to do with one's muscle memory. It's like trying to get rid of an accent. He could get away with it in college as the athletes he was facing and the style of offense he was playing in didn't demand that he get the ball out as quickly. But once he turned pro, it became his Achilles heel and is the primary reason why he was a bust.

In Tebow's rookie season, the average completion percentage for all NFL quarterbacks was 60.8%. That's a full 13% higher than the numbers Tebow was putting up in Denver. Hawktalk loves comparing Tebow with Elway, but the fact is that completion percentages were significantly lower during Elway's playing days than they are today or even what they were when Tebow first broke in:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... assing.htm

In the early 80's, when Elway broke into the league, the average completion percentage for an NFL quarterback hovered around 55-56%. Today they're 65%, nearly 10% higher. No way would any team keep on their roster a QB that can't complete 50% of their passes.

[RiverDog]

If he'd (Tebow) have been willing to try TE earlier in his career we may be talking about him as a perennial pro bowler, but that willingness came way too late.

^This right here.^

I said the same thing about Jake Locker and got roundly criticized for it.

[Aseahawkfan]

Tebow wasn't a freakshow athlete, he was a strong, smart kid with a reasonable arm and good speed and a decent head on his shoulders. What separated him from the pack in college (making him one of the greatest college players ever) was his heart and his will to win. Those attributes stood him well in the pros but were not enough to separate him amongst other pros as was the case in college. If he'd have been willing to try TE earlier in his career we may be talking about him as a perennial pro bowler, but that willingness came way too late.

I have a friend that grew up with Tebow (played with him in HS and college) and also played Div 1 baseball with Russ. I asked him straight up who the better athlete was and he said their is no comparison, Wilson by far. He said Tebow was a tank, stronger than you and more determined than you but Russ was a Ferrari, lightning fast, agile and could do anything he wanted athletically. Russel Wilson is the freakshow athlete.

Russell Wilson is a freakshow athlete as well, but better football instincts and had to learn to use his brain because he wasn't running through anyone like Tebow could in college.

Tim Tebow was a two-way QB like Cam Newton. He could run and pass with nearly equal ability because he was such an amazing athlete. These are the stats of a freakshow athlete at the college level. It is exceedingly rare for a QB to be able to pass and run with near equal ability. The only problem is that skill set doesn't translate well to the NFL. Tim Tebow was a slightly lesser version of Cam Newton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Tebow

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Tim&l=Tebow&i=8644

6'3" 236 lbs. at the combine. 10.13 inch hands. 4.7 40 yard dash as a QB.

One of the Top 16 combine performances in NFL history. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-combine-16-best-performances-in-combine-history/1c4qhb1fl0xj31n7ndv5ugvz7h#:~:text=Tebow%2C%20at%206%2D3%2C,%2Dsecond%203%2Dcone%20drill.

If Tim Tebow were smart as in good NFL instincts and ability to read defenses, he would likely have been a Hall of Fame NFL QB. Tim Tebow was one of the best college athletes to ever play the game and just straight up could out physical people in college to win. But you can't do that in the NFL because everyone in the NFL is an amazing athlete.

Tebow had the heart. Tebow had the will to win. Tebow had athleticism off the charts. What Tebow did not have was football instincts and an ability to read NFL defenses.

Even I who doesn't watch college football could see Tebow was a freakish physical specimen. Looked like some farm fed huge guy standing with boys. His whole frame, hands, bone structure, and overall size and athletic ability reminded me of Brock Lesnar without steroids. Dudes that big should not be able to run and move like Tim Tebow.

Cam Newton Combine: https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=6373

Russell Wilson Combine: https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=8708

All three of them freakshow athletes playing QB. Only one has the brains to play QB at an elite level. That's our guy. Russell Wilson.