Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

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Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:29 am

Cooper Kupp had what was arguably the best season ever turned in by an NFL wide receiver and demonstrated the media's bias towards quarterbacks in their awarding of the league MVP. He became just the 4th receiver in league history and the first since 2005 to win receiving's triple crown by leading the league in receptions, receiving yardage, and touchdown receptions joining Steve Smith, Sterling Sharpe, and Jerry Rice. He became only the 2nd player in league history to catch TD passes in 4 consecutive playoff games. He caught two TD passes in the Super Bowl, including the game winner, after running for a first down on a critical 4th down earlier in the drive, winning the Super Bowl MVP. Kupp had made an apparent game winning catch a few plays earlier that was nullified by a penalty. This all occurred as the Rams other All Pro receiver, Odell Beckham, had left in the first half due to injury, allowing the Bengals to concentrate their efforts on Kupp. The Bengals knew that the Rams were going go to him, yet they still couldn't cover him.

It was a performance particularly satisfying for me to watch. Kupp hails from my alma mater, Eastern Washington University, and is from Yakima, a shade over an hour's drive from my house. I followed him during his college days and was well aware of who he was before he was drafted in the 3rd round by the Rams. The local news outlets have done countless features and specials on him prior to the Super Bowl and will no doubt do countless more in the days to come, this time being joined by the national media that has suddenly discovered him.

Kupp is not an extraordinarily athlete. He has good speed and quickness, but not top end speed that stretches defenses. At 6'2" and 208 lbs., he's not exactly an imposing physical specimen, but he blocks well and does whatever is asked of him. He has good elusiveness and makes a lot of YAC, but he's not in the same class as Tyrek Hill. But he is a superb route runner and has a 6th sense that allows him to know exactly where to run, when make his cut. And he has great hands, superior concentration. He was absolutely clutch for the Rams down the stretch and is much more deserving of the "Cool" moniker than the Bengals' celebrated QB.

Thinking of Seahawk receivers, he reminds me of Steve Largent, Bobby Engram, Doug Baldwin, and Tyler Lockett.

It brings up an interesting question: Do we really need a Megatron-like receiver in DK Metcalf in order to get back to the Super Bowl? Or can we do it with a less physically talented receiver in the same mold as Cooper Kupp?
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:57 am

RiverDog wrote:Cooper Kupp had what was arguably the best season ever turned in by an NFL wide receiver and demonstrated the media's bias towards quarterbacks in their awarding of the league MVP. He became just the 4th receiver in league history and the first since 2005 to win receiving's triple crown by leading the league in receptions, receiving yardage, and touchdown receptions joining Steve Smith, Sterling Sharpe, and Jerry Rice. He became only the 2nd player in league history to catch TD passes in 4 consecutive playoff games. He caught two TD passes in the Super Bowl, including the game winner, after running for a first down on a critical 4th down earlier in the drive, winning the Super Bowl MVP. Kupp had made an apparent game winning catch a few plays earlier that was nullified by a penalty. This all occurred as the Rams other All Pro receiver, Odell Beckham, had left in the first half due to injury, allowing the Bengals to concentrate their efforts on Kupp. The Bengals knew that the Rams were going go to him, yet they still couldn't cover him.

It was a performance particularly satisfying for me to watch. Kupp hails from my alma mater, Eastern Washington University, and is from Yakima, a shade over an hour's drive from my house. I followed him during his college days and was well aware of who he was before he was drafted in the 3rd round by the Rams. The local news outlets have done countless features and specials on him prior to the Super Bowl and will no doubt do countless more in the days to come, this time being joined by the national media that has suddenly discovered him.

Kupp is not an extraordinarily athlete. He has good speed and quickness, but not top end speed that stretches defenses. At 6'2" and 208 lbs., he's not exactly an imposing physical specimen, but he blocks well and does whatever is asked of him. He has good elusiveness and makes a lot of YAC, but he's not in the same class as Tyrek Hill. But he is a superb route runner and has a 6th sense that allows him to know exactly where to run, when make his cut. And he has great hands, superior concentration. He was absolutely clutch for the Rams down the stretch and is much more deserving of the "Cool" moniker than the Bengals' celebrated QB.

Thinking of Seahawk receivers, he reminds me of Steve Largent, Bobby Engram, Doug Baldwin, and Tyler Lockett.

It brings up an interesting question: Do we really need a Megatron-like receiver in DK Metcalf in order to get back to the Super Bowl? Or can we do it with a less physically talented receiver in the same mold as Cooper Kupp?


Kupp is successful because people look at his measurables. hes got football speed. hes a football player. hes taking the top off so hes not slow. Beyond that we did win a Super bowl with Baldwin who i get tired of hearing people trash him as Russel's garbage receivers he won a super bowl with. I've moved towards your position on DK. Hes a head case. he and Russ are no longer on the same page and he has significant value.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:18 am

Hawktawk wrote:Kupp is successful because people look at his measurables. hes got football speed. hes a football player. hes taking the top off so hes not slow. Beyond that we did win a Super bowl with Baldwin who i get tired of hearing people trash him as Russel's garbage receivers he won a super bowl with. I've moved towards your position on DK. Hes a head case. he and Russ are no longer on the same page and he has significant value.


Kupp's 40 time at the combine was 4.62, well below the WR average time of 4.48. By definition, that is slow according to wide receiver standards. Hell, Russell Wilson ran it in 4.55. That is not speed that can take the top off of coverages. Plus Kupp blew out his ACL in 2018. He gets open due to his great route running, his ability to read coverages, and communication with his quarterback, not because he's running past cornerbacks and safeties ala DK Metcalf.

IMO Metcalf has been a bad influence football-wise on Russell and far too often has led him to look for him deep when he should be concentrating on moving the sticks. It's one of the reasons why Russell has such a low 3rd down completion percentage and one of the reasons why we have such a poor TOP stat.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby govandals » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:51 am

Nah, we certainly don't NEED a DK type WR to win it all. We won it all with some pedestrian fellas. Brady won SB's with a revolving door of not so athletic WRs, and the one SB he did have a DK type (Moss), he lost.

Over on SDB, there was a poster (one of those I know someone, who knows someone, who works at the VMAC) who says the Seahawks have a 4yr/$100 mil offer on the table for DK and he is waiting to see how things shake out with RW before making a decision.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:33 am

govandals wrote:Nah, we certainly don't NEED a DK type WR to win it all. We won it all with some pedestrian fellas. Brady won SB's with a revolving door of not so athletic WRs, and the one SB he did have a DK type (Moss), he lost.


Good point. The 3 highest paid wide receivers in the league (Cooper/Cowboys, Robinson/Bears, Adams/Packers) didn't win a playoff game. Of the top 16 highest paid wide receivers, only 6 of them (Cooper, Adams, Goodwin/Bucs, Hill/Chiefs, Hopkins/Cards, Boyd/Bengals) played for one of the 14 teams that made the playoffs. It makes zero sense to break the bank for a wide receiver.

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/2021/

govandals wrote:Over on SDB, there was a poster (one of those I know someone, who knows someone, who works at the VMAC) who says the Seahawks have a 4yr/$100 mil offer on the table for DK and he is waiting to see how things shake out with RW before making a decision.


I sincerely doubt that we'd make that big of an offer to a player currently under contract a month before the start of free agency.
Last edited by RiverDog on Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:34 am

Kupp is successful because he is a superb tactician and he's surprisingly hard to tackle.
Combined with great hands it's a combination that is hard to stop.
But having said that, he does a lot better when he has someone who can go deep and open space for him as well he's fortunate that he's in a system that is creative enough
to really use him to his best. Not all systems or WR friendly, but the Rams is, so he should dominate for a number of years.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:42 am

NorthHawk wrote:Kupp is successful because he is a superb tactician and he's surprisingly hard to tackle.
Combined with great hands it's a combination that is hard to stop.
But having said that, he does a lot better when he has someone who can go deep and open space for him as well he's fortunate that he's in a system that is creative enough
to really use him to his best. Not all systems or WR friendly, but the Rams is, so he should dominate for a number of years.


Yeah, he's very elusive, that's for sure. That 4th down jet sweep was typical, dodging tacklers and picking his way through the defense. But he's not the jitter bug that Tyreek Hill is.

I don't think that Kupp is likely to repeat his success next season, especially if McVay retires. The stars all lined up for him this season. Very seldom do you see the same receiver dominate a statistical category from one season to the next. 2020's top receiver was Stephon Diggs, in 2019 it was Michael Thomas, 2018 Julio Jones, 2017 Antonio Brown, 2016 T.Y. Hilton, and so on. That's another reason not to break the bank for wide receivers.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:05 am

Even if Kupp doesn't repeat this years success, he will (barring injury) probably be about 80% as effective which is something most teams would love to have.
I don't have a problem breaking the bank on WRs if they draw attention from the other parts of the game. Kupp is also a very good blocker, so if he is double teamed or
game planned against like many of us think will happen, that's just as valuable to a team as was his production this year. It's just spread out better.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:10 am

I don’t care what he ran at the combine . Marcus Allen ran 4.6. I heard a quote from a former receiver who said Kupp gets compared to guys like Edelman due to being white when in reality he is a Davante Adams type play maker . He had the triple crown , something only Rice did before . He didn’t do that catching dink and dunk balls . He appeared to get behind Tampa with his 4.7 speed :D
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:48 am

Hawktawk wrote:I don’t care what he ran at the combine . Marcus Allen ran 4.6. I heard a quote from a former receiver who said Kupp gets compared to guys like Edelman due to being white when in reality he is a Davante Adams type play maker . He had the triple crown , something only Rice did before . He didn’t do that catching dink and dunk balls . He appeared to get behind Tampa with his 4.7 speed :D


FYI Steve Smith and Sterling Sharpe also won receiving's triple crown:

Kupp is only the fourth player since 1970 to achieve the rare feat, joining Jerry Rice (San Francisco 49ers, 1990), Sterling Sharpe (Green Bay Packers, 1992) and the last player previous to Kupp to claim a triple crown, Steve Smith (Carolina Panthers, 2005).

https://www.nfl.com/news/rams-wr-cooper ... iple-crown

I never said he caught just dink dunk balls. He reads defenses, knows where to run his routes, has a knack for knowing just when a DB is vulnerable to getting faked out, when to turn back to look for the ball. He's an artist, not a race car.

Go back and take a look at how Kupp got behind the Tampa Bay defense. The Bucs sold out, were in an all out bitz and the safety was one on one with him and didn't expect him to go deep, didn't even turn his back until he was almost past him. He was expecting Kupp to break towards the sidelines as there was so little time left. They were told to defend the 40 yardline.

You may not care what he ran at the combine, but it's a fact and is reflective of his ability, a gauge that they use to measure all NFL player's speed. Tenths of a second differences in the 40 yard dash are huge. The man is not blessed with great foot speed, which is how he ended up at EWU. Kupp's dad couldn't even get his alma mater UW to take a flier on him. He's not slow or plodding, but he's far from having top shelf foot speed.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:31 am

Largent wasn’t the fastest guy out there, either but he was fast enough. The similarities are they really understand
how they fit into their Offense along with what the Defenses are doing to try to stop them and how to counter those
attempts. Along with exceptional route running, speed isn’t as much a factor as it is with lesser disciplined WR’s.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:59 am

Hawktawk wrote:Kupp is successful because people look at his measurables. hes got football speed. hes a football player. hes taking the top off so hes not slow. Beyond that we did win a Super bowl with Baldwin who i get tired of hearing people trash him as Russel's garbage receivers he won a super bowl with. I've moved towards your position on DK. Hes a head case. he and Russ are no longer on the same page and he has significant value.


What are you talking about? No one trashes Baldwin I know of. But he was alone in the second Super Bowl. It was Baldwin along with Ricard Lockette and Chris something or other we signed a few weeks before the Super Bowl. Russ threw 2 TDs to a guy who didn't even make it in the NFL.

Baldwin was an excellent receiver. Great pick up. But one guy who is a starter in the Super Bowl is not a great position to be in.

I would have even been completely fine with the terrible Super Bowl play call if Baldwin were running that route. Baldwin would have run the short route perfectly and made every effort to catch it. If the Patriot CD had intercepted the ball with Baldwin running the route, then great play. Not much can be done about it.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:03 pm

You don't need a Metcalf to win a Super Bowl. It's hard to pick where your elite talent will come from. Metcalf is elite talent. But I'd definitely be ok trading him for some picks and/or a pass rusher or O-line. It is much easier to find competent receivers when you have a good QB than quality O-line and D-line.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby mykc14 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:12 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:
Baldwin was an excellent receiver. Great pick up. But one guy who is a starter in the Super Bowl is not a great position to be in.

I would have even been completely fine with the terrible Super Bowl play call if Baldwin were running that route. Baldwin would have run the short route perfectly and made every effort to catch it. If the Patriot CD had intercepted the ball with Baldwin running the route, then great play. Not much can be done about it.


Yeah, that's how I feel as well. We needed that play to go to Baldwin, but at the same time we didn't have 2 good receiving options. They were obviously trying to stay away from Revis (who was guarding Baldwin). At the end of the day we didn't have the personnel to run that play and the Pats had the perfect matchup to defend it (Browner on Kearse). Arggg.... so frustrating!!!
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:09 pm

NorthHawk wrote:Largent wasn’t the fastest guy out there, either but he was fast enough. The similarities are they really understand
how they fit into their Offense along with what the Defenses are doing to try to stop them and how to counter those
attempts. Along with exceptional route running, speed isn’t as much a factor as it is with lesser disciplined WR’s.


The thing I remember most about Largent was how many times he was just wide, wide open, without a soul within 10 yards of him, like he'd run onto the field from the tunnel or something. I kept saying to myself how in the hell can anyone forget about that guy.

For us, Lockett has turned into that kind of receiver. He seems to have changed his game since that complex fracture that he suffered a few years back, has stepped into Baldwin's role, whom IMO was one of the 4-5 best receivers we've had as a franchise.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:15 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:You don't need a Metcalf to win a Super Bowl. It's hard to pick where your elite talent will come from. Metcalf is elite talent. But I'd definitely be ok trading him for some picks and/or a pass rusher or O-line. It is much easier to find competent receivers when you have a good QB than quality O-line and D-line.


I'm glad you understand the point I'm making. Take a look at OBJ, undoubtedly one of the best receivers in the league. The Rams lost him in the first half yet they barely missed him. Collingsworth kept saying that not having OBJ was going to make Kupp's job harder, but he kept getting open and making catches. I'd rather spend that money on a LT or edge rusher.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby TriCitySam » Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:50 pm

"...Or can we do it with a less physically talented receiver in the same mold as Cooper Kupp?" Kupp will wind up costing the Rams about as much as Metcalf will cost the Hawks. Different, but both playing at an elite level. The question is: can you just go out and draft another elite WR instead of paying these guys? As we know it's a crap shoot, and plenty of teams passed multiple times on both. 3 WR taken in top 10 in '17 - Corey Davis had 492 yards this year, now on his 2nd team; Mike Williams 1,146; John Ross is out of the league. But I do believe the possession WR's (like Ricky Proehl) are undervalued. However, you do need the big gun - and that can be a CK or a DK.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:46 pm

RiverDog wrote:I'm glad you understand the point I'm making. Take a look at OBJ, undoubtedly one of the best receivers in the league. The Rams lost him in the first half yet they barely missed him. Collingsworth kept saying that not having OBJ was going to make Kupp's job harder, but he kept getting open and making catches. I'd rather spend that money on a LT or edge rusher.


I know some folks on here want to be some kind of elite offense. But I'd take an elite defense over an elite offense every single year.

I think that you have a better chance of having an elite defense with lots of good guys and some luck on some affordable elite guys. It's similar on offense. You got a QB who can get things done with decent WRs and a consistent run game whether single back or platoon with an elite defense with a great guy or two and a lot of excellent guys and you're going to have the best chance at a Super Bowl.

You want quality WRs. But you don't need elite receivers to win the SB. You need a bunch of Doug Baldwins or a Lockett or Metcalf with a few other guys.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby obiken » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:16 pm

I know some folks on here want to be some kind of elite offense. But I'd take an elite defense over an elite offense every single year.


They may have been true 10 years ago ASHF, but not now. Almost all your playoff teams had coaches that were Offensive, not defensive Guru's. You just cannot build a good enough defense with the Cap to stop a PM, JA, or JB.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:23 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:
What are you talking about? No one trashes Baldwin I know of. But he was alone in the second Super Bowl. It was Baldwin along with Ricard Lockette and Chris something or other we signed a few weeks before the Super Bowl. Russ threw 2 TDs to a guy who didn't even make it in the NFL.

Baldwin was an excellent receiver. Great pick up. But one guy who is a starter in the Super Bowl is not a great position to be in.

I would have even been completely fine with the terrible Super Bowl play call if Baldwin were running that route. Baldwin would have run the short route perfectly and made every effort to catch it. If the Patriot CD had intercepted the ball with Baldwin running the route, then great play. Not much can be done about it.


I’ve seen Baldwin and the entire receiving corps from 13 and 14 called garbage a few times including recently here . Those receivers make Rivers point . As for 2014 it’s too bad Tate was busy with Ashton because I though he was a nasty hard nosed guy , returner , physical . Explosive run blocker . He wasn’t an all pro but fit extremely well with that team . Also 2014 and super bowl 49 was a story of Injuries not just to the defense . Paul Richardson was blowing up
, had a huge game going in the divisional vs Carolina then blew his knee late in that game . That’s why Mathews was in the game and he served his purpose well . Not sure why he wasn’t the target at the end or Baldwin as you said or even put Kearse on the route . Kearse actually has made some of the biggest catches in team history . Coulda shoulda . Hindsight is 2020. Sucks .
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:00 pm

obiken wrote:They may have been true 10 years ago ASHF, but not now. Almost all your playoff teams had coaches that were Offensive, not defensive Guru's. You just cannot build a good enough defense with the Cap to stop a PM, JA, or JB.


And yet defense still wins in Super Bowls. 23 points won this year and a defensive stop. Last year the defense sacked the crap out of Mahomes. When we won, our defense crushed the most prolific offense of all time.

Strong defense still wins championships. You can't have a crap offense to go with it, but if you have a top 10 offense and a top 5 defense, you'll have a great chance at a Super Bowl.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:38 pm

obiken wrote:They may have been true 10 years ago ASHF, but not now. Almost all your playoff teams had coaches that were Offensive, not defensive Guru's. You just cannot build a good enough defense with the Cap to stop a PM, JA, or JB.


And yet defense still wins in Super Bowls. 23 points won this year and a defensive stop. Last year the defense sacked the crap out of Mahomes. When we won, our defense crushed the most prolific offense of all time.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Strong defense still wins championships. You can't have a crap offense to go with it, but if you have a top 10 offense and a top 5 defense, you'll have a great chance at a Super Bowl.


The offense vs. defense debate is almost as old as the game itself, but let's just check and see how it played out this season.

Top 10 Offenses:

Dallas
Tampa Bay
Kansas City
LA Chargers
Buffalo
Baltimore
San Francisco
Arizona
LA Rams
Green Bay

Top 10 Defenses:

Buffalo
Carolina
San Francisco
New England
Cleveland
Chicago
New Orleans
Denver
Green Bay
Philadelphia

Two of the top 10 offenses didn't make the playoffs. 5 of the top 10 defenses didn't make the playoffs.

The Rams won the Super Bowl with a defense ranked 17th and an offense ranked 9th. Cincinnati got to the Super Bowl with an offense ranked 13th and a defense ranked 18th.

Not much of a conclusion that you can draw with that comparison, but it does bear out Obi if only slightly. My take is it depends on how different teams match up. The Rams front 4 was not a good matchup for the Bengal's offensive line, at least not from the Bengals' POV.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:03 pm

RiverDog wrote:The offense vs. defense debate is almost as old as the game itself, but let's just check and see how it played out this season.

Top 10 Offenses:

Dallas
Tampa Bay
Kansas City
LA Chargers
Buffalo
Baltimore
San Francisco
Arizona
LA Rams
Green Bay

Top 10 Defenses:

Buffalo
Carolina
San Francisco
New England
Cleveland
Chicago
New Orleans
Denver
Green Bay
Philadelphia

Two of the top 10 offenses didn't make the playoffs. 5 of the top 10 defenses didn't make the playoffs.

The Rams won the Super Bowl with a defense ranked 17th and an offense ranked 9th. Cincinnati got to the Super Bowl with an offense ranked 13th and a defense ranked 18th.

Not much of a conclusion that you can draw with that comparison, but it does bear out Obi if only slightly. My take is it depends on how different teams match up. The Rams front 4 was not a good matchup for the Bengal's offensive line, at least not from the Bengals' POV.


This year was a strange year. As wide open as it gets.

This isn't an offense versus defense debate. What I see over the years is that balanced teams win. I'd prefer a balance of top 5 defense and a top 10 offense versus the other way around. I think a strong defense with a run game travels better than a top offense with a passing focus. It's hard to build a really balanced team.

Your best shot at a dynasty and not a one off is a balanced team that is good on both sides of the ball. You want to compete every year and get to the playoffs, you need a franchise QB. Once you get that far, then it will come down to who gets hot at the right time.

If the NFL were like the NBA with 7 game playoffs, I'd still put my money on a top defense with a run game winning more often than a top passing offense. Since the NFL is one and done, anyone can have a great day for one game and get it done once you reach the Super Bowl.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby RiverDog » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:17 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:This year was a strange year. As wide open as it gets.

This isn't an offense versus defense debate. What I see over the years is that balanced teams win. I'd prefer a balance of top 5 defense and a top 10 offense versus the other way around. I think a strong defense with a run game travels better than a top offense with a passing focus. It's hard to build a really balanced team.

Your best shot at a dynasty and not a one off is a balanced team that is good on both sides of the ball. You want to compete every year and get to the playoffs, you need a franchise QB. Once you get that far, then it will come down to who gets hot at the right time.

If the NFL were like the NBA with 7 game playoffs, I'd still put my money on a top defense with a run game winning more often than a top passing offense. Since the NFL is one and done, anyone can have a great day for one game and get it done once you reach the Super Bowl.


Yeah, I wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong or right. It was an odd year, with a team like the Chiefs starting so slow, the Cards so fast, Miami suddenly catching fire, upsets galore. Lots of weird stuff. But it was interesting to look at.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:30 am

This isn't an offense versus defense debate. What I see over the years is that balanced teams win. I'd prefer a balance of top 5 defense and a top 10 offense versus the other way around. I think a strong defense with a run game travels better than a top offense with a passing focus. It's hard to build a really balanced team.


We were balanced last year. We were bad on both sides of the ball. :cry:
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:52 am

It was interesting the 9ers are top 10 on both offense and defense . Explains their position at seasons end despite a mediocre QB. All types of teams have won a super bowl . Pedestrian QBs on dominant teams have won . Great offenses have carried mediocre defenses . I saw an Interesting stat today . Of the last 16 super bowl QBs who lost their first super bowl none ever got back . It’s so hard . Can we get to a super bowl with Russ ? Sure if we have a good defense and he’s sharp . The LOB got us to 48 and the LOB and special teams got us to 49. Russ had some big plays at the end but we had no business winning that game . Even in 13 we were a finger tip from losing to thr 9ers . And that only because Russ threw a 40 yard TD pass to Kearse on 4 th down . Burrow had a great run but if his D wasn’t balling he’s going down to Tennessee and certainly KC. Josh Allen was 13 seconds from maybe winding up where Cincy did . It’s so hard . You gotta be good and even more lucky , calls or non calls , injuries , weird bounces .
It’s really sunk in after another lousy season . You must savor a championship because it has to do with more than your roster .
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:26 pm

Hawktawk wrote:It was interesting the 9ers are top 10 on both offense and defense . Explains their position at seasons end despite a mediocre QB. All types of teams have won a super bowl . Pedestrian QBs on dominant teams have won . Great offenses have carried mediocre defenses . I saw an Interesting stat today . Of the last 16 super bowl QBs who lost their first super bowl none ever got back . It’s so hard . Can we get to a super bowl with Russ ? Sure if we have a good defense and he’s sharp . The LOB got us to 48 and the LOB and special teams got us to 49. Russ had some big plays at the end but we had no business winning that game . Even in 13 we were a finger tip from losing to thr 9ers . And that only because Russ threw a 40 yard TD pass to Kearse on 4 th down . Burrow had a great run but if his D wasn’t balling he’s going down to Tennessee and certainly KC. Josh Allen was 13 seconds from maybe winding up where Cincy did . It’s so hard . You gotta be good and even more lucky , calls or non calls , injuries , weird bounces .
It’s really sunk in after another lousy season . You must savor a championship because it has to do with more than your roster .


I think the entire team got us there. But the LoB was a big part of it. But so was Russ and some of those crazy plays like that Jermaine Kearse catch and Russ sucking up four interceptions and making a comeback against Green Bay. Most of the time four interceptions breaks a QB and he gets scared to throw. But Russ kept on getting back up when he got knocked down. LoB gave him the chance to do that by making sure those 4 interceptions to didn't lead to a blowout. But you need all your guys to step up for a Super Bowl. And as we found out even the coaches need to make very smart decisions as any mistake can be costly.
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Re: Cooper Kupp and the Wide Receiver Position

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:54 pm

That NFC title game was amazing . Russ and for that matter Kearse were an interception connection for about 55 minutes . It was a testament to a team effort , especially the LOB and special teams . In the end Russ and Beast came though and so did Kearse with the walk off TD with a defender draped on him before the ball arrived . Next to that my favorite throw from Wilson was the incredible throw all the way across the field to Luke Willson for the 2 point . Falling backwards out of bounds with defenders in his face and not sure how he saw him.

But that’s my point . The best players aren’t always the best team and it’s better to be lucky than good . If the GB guy did his job on the onside game over . If the defender who picked Russ the 4 th time doesn’t slide down in the open field instead of getting the ball in scoring range game over .

I wasn’t aware the Rams had such middling stats but they are a great example of a lucky team . Stafford threw several game ending picks . Nobody caught them . For all those stars that 17 ranking on the D is surprising . Jalen Ramsey gave up 160 yards in the super bowl to Chase and was beaten falling on his face with Chase alone when Donald got to Burrow or my guess is it’s Cincy having a parade and it’s likely it would be better then that lame ass LA joke . I hope we are lucky and good enough to take advantage of it next year .
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