NFL and gambling

[Hawktawk]

With allegations of game fixing or at least attempting it I want to address the elephant in the room . Beyond the emotional and financial investment of fans there is so much money bet . So I have questions . Do owners have any ties , any tentacles to organized gambling ? I seem to remember something with the Rooney’s back in the day . Do owners have relationships with officials or is that protected against ? Are officials scrutinized for ties to gambling, organized crime etc ? How well is it all vetted. I have been a conspiracy theorist ever since XL. And it’s kinda like racial equality in the league . Yeah we gotta get these refs to do better . But critical calls and non calls like the Saints receiver getting blown up near the goal line to change the super bowl to Rams Pats from Saints pats keep happening . Hopefully not this next game . I think the underbelly of gambling in the league makes it critical to keep an eye on the process .

[NorthHawk]

With all of the reporters out there digging for information, I would expect the owners lawyers will have severed any ties to that industry.
That's not to say the assets formerly held by them weren't transferred to family members or put in a shell company and sent off shore outside of prying eyes, but
the image of fairness has to be maintained for the league to survive.

Officials? Some may be on the take - I don't know but it has happened in other sports so it's a possibility. As with owners, though they are vetted pretty well and
I would think monitored by NFL Security pretty closely. But you are right about suspect calls or non calls making a fan wonder if something is going on at times.

[RiverDog]

With allegations of game fixing or at least attempting it I want to address the elephant in the room . Beyond the emotional and financial investment of fans there is so much money bet . So I have questions . Do owners have any ties , any tentacles to organized gambling ? I seem to remember something with the Rooney’s back in the day . Do owners have relationships with officials or is that protected against ? Are officials scrutinized for ties to gambling, organized crime etc ? How well is it all vetted. I have been a conspiracy theorist ever since XL. And it’s kinda like racial equality in the league . Yeah we gotta get these refs to do better . But critical calls and non calls like the Saints receiver getting blown up near the goal line to change the super bowl to Rams Pats from Saints pats keep happening . Hopefully not this next game . I think the underbelly of gambling in the league makes it critical to keep an eye on the process .

My position on conspiracy theories: JFK was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone, not by a mystery man on the grassy knoll. The Apollo moon landings actually happened and were not faked. The World Trade Center was taken down by two hijacked airliners, not imploded by the CIA. George Bush did not blow up the levees in New Orleans during Katrina. The 2020 election was not stolen. There are no microchips in the Covid vaccines. NFL games, with the possible exception of some teams intentionally losing to enhance their draft/waiver status, are not pre-determined or intentionally steered in one direction or the other.

I honestly don't know how many owners or other NFL executives have ties to the gambling industry or their relationship with officials. But it is in their financial best interests that the game be as pure and genuine as possible rather than it being turned into some type of rehearsed event like professional wrestling. I also don't know why anyone would have as much interest in the game as we all appear to have if we believe that it is fixed or that outcomes are pre-determined. Why go vote in an election that you believe to be rigged?

Having said that, I do think that the league should be very aggressive when it comes to preserving the integrity of the game, and as I said in the Flores thread, they need to investigate Flores's allegations that he was paid to lose games thoroughly, leaving no stone unturned, and that they should modify their draft slotting, waiver order, and scheduling to discourage intentionally losing games to gain advantage in the succeeding season.

[RiverDog]

I apologize in advance for taking the thread way off topic, but I have to share this video with you guys. It's Buzz Aldrin, then 72 years old and the 2nd man to have walked on the moon, being confronted by 38-year-old Bart Sibrel, a moon landing conspiracy theorist. It's only 90 seconds long:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bu ... M%3DHDRSC3

[Hawktawk]

My position on conspiracy theories: JFK was shot and killed by Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone, not by a mystery man on the grassy knoll. The Apollo moon landings actually happened and were not faked. The World Trade Center was taken down by two hijacked airliners, not imploded by the CIA. George Bush did not blow up the levees in New Orleans during Katrina. The 2020 election was not stolen. There are no microchips in the Covid vaccines. NFL games, with the possible exception of some teams intentionally losing to enhance their draft/waiver status, are not pre-determined or intentionally steered in one direction or the other.

I honestly don't know how many owners or other NFL executives have ties to the gambling industry or their relationship with officials. But it is in their financial best interests that the game be as pure and genuine as possible rather than it being turned into some type of rehearsed event like professional wrestling. I also don't know why anyone would have as much interest in the game as we all appear to have if we believe that it is fixed or that outcomes are pre-determined. Why go vote in an election that you believe to be rigged?

Having said that, I do think that the league should be very aggressive when it comes to preserving the integrity of the game, and as I said in the Flores thread, they need to investigate Flores's allegations that he was paid to lose games thoroughly, leaving no stone unturned, and that they should modify their draft slotting, waiver order, and scheduling to discourage intentionally losing games to gain advantage in the succeeding season.

You paint a lot of conspiracy theories with the same brush which tends to discredit the more serious ones.All but 2 are ridiculous BS. One is very plausible and the other is obvious to all but stevie wonder.

Lots of questions about Kennedy still unanswered. I have a real hard timer believing a guy with a bolt action rifle with out a scope shooting down from a high floor building got 3 or 4 bullets in a moving vehicle including 2 in the intended target including a direct shot to the neck and head. That last one came as the vehicle was beginning to accelerate. I've seen the zap ruder film, Kennedy holding his throat in front after being shot from behind I dont buy it. Ruby killing Oswald who claimed he was a patsy while in direct police custody but not being shot himself?

As for NFL games XL......How a Seahawks fan can somehow explain that away as a bad day by Leavy and his crew I counted 6 of 7 calls against Seattle as being pure BS, manufactured while ignoring penalties by Pittsburgh often on the same play. A back Judger from Pittsburgh who grew up rooting for the steel curtain but hey good call on the OPI with Chris Hope holding DJ from the 10 yard line in. Nice hold on Locklear when Haggins is a yard offsides and called so from the booth by several commentators. Nice no call when the most obnoxious POS loudmouth in the league Joey Porter horse collared the league MVP. One year after the rule was implemented due to an injury to TO they missed it in the open field. MMMMHHHM. Smart by Porter he was the only guy with a chance or SA is getting the first and maybe housing it. Nice hold call on the Warrick return where the ref appears to be reaching for his flag before the legal contact even occurred. Nice delayed TD call for Rothlesburger when Faneca is choking out DD lewis from behind pulling him out of the hole or Ben isn't close. Same ref watching both aspects with a clear view. Meanwhile Pittsburgh got called for 3 penalties all night. A push off by Miller inside the 10 after overlooking Heinz ward literally bending our DBs head backwards by the facemask he was grasping to create separation on a critical 3rd and long to help get them there. Same ref from Pittsburgh on that no call. Dj absolutely blown up out of bounds just before the half. Pittsburgh was flagged for 3 penalties for 20 yards in the game, none in the last 38:40. I think they figured out they could do whatever they wanted and so they did. Anyone critiquing Sweattle, engaging in self loathing or blame for not overcoming that is blind. I dont recall another game, certainly a Super Bowl that lopsided. We got inspected and neglected while they were allowed to ply by a completely different set of rules. I look at stuff like the Saints Rams and the incredible failure to flag the hit in the nfc championship and then we find some of the refs had LA ties including the guy that ate the whistle. Not buying its all on the up and up

[RiverDog]

You paint a lot of conspiracy theories with the same brush which tends to discredit the more serious ones.All but 2 are ridiculous BS. One is very plausible and the other is obvious to all but stevie wonder.

Lots of questions about Kennedy still unanswered. I have a real hard timer believing a guy with a bolt action rifle with out a scope shooting down from a high floor building got 3 or 4 bullets in a moving vehicle including 2 in the intended target including a direct shot to the neck and head. That last one came as the vehicle was beginning to accelerate. I've seen the zap ruder film, Kennedy holding his throat in front after being shot from behind I dont buy it. Ruby killing Oswald who claimed he was a patsy while in direct police custody but not being shot himself?

Oswald's feat has been reproduced with very similar if not identical results by multiple firearms experts over the past 55 years. Questions about the firearm/bullet trajectory have been answered by forensics, ballistics, and computer simulations. It was described by many as being an "easy" shot, Elm Street being on a downhill slope away from Oswald's position, reducing the adjustment on a target moving away and with very little horizontal correction, and only about 90 yards from the fatal head shot (a pretty short Par 3, huh?). Oswald's Marine Corps records show that he was a very good shot, qualified as a "marksman", and practiced frequently with the murder weapon. Oswald said scores of provable lies while in custody and denied virtually everything, so his "patsy" statement needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I've researched this topic as thoroughly as anyone and have been obsessed with it for over 50 years as it was the first major event that I have a clear recollection of. I'll start a thread so if you're interested, we can discuss it over there. I enjoy the banter, especially between friends like we have in this forum.

As far as XL goes, it's a dead horse that we've kicked for the past 16 years. I have no desire to pursue it further. But you're right, my default position is that I don't believe in conspiracy theories unless there's some pretty convincing evidence. Like someone once said, two people can keep a secret so long as one of them is dead.

[NorthHawk]

I don’t think XL was part of a conspiracy but I do think there might have been some unintended bias.
With the stands mostly filled with Steeler fans it’s possible the referees were influenced by them which
for me points more to incompetence than conspiracy.

[RiverDog]

I don’t think XL was part of a conspiracy but I do think there might have been some unintended bias. With the stands mostly filled with Steeler fans it’s possible the referees were influenced by them which for me points more to incompetence than conspiracy.

I don't think it was "possible" that they were influenced by the pro Steelers crowd. I think that it was highly likely and explains a lot of the obvious bias. Pittsburgh is closer to Detroit than Seattle is to Spokane, and Jerome Bettis was a Detroit native. It was a defacto home game for the Steelers.

It was also 2006, before the secondary ticket market really hit its stride. The situation was reversed in 2015 when we played the Pats in Glendale as the stands were dominated by 12's.

[Hawktawk]

I don’t think XL was part of a conspiracy but I do think there might have been some unintended bias.
With the stands mostly filled with Steeler fans it’s possible the referees were influenced by them which
for me points more to incompetence than conspiracy.

You had a back judge who played college football at Juanita during the Steelers dynasty . He’s the center fielder .And you have Paul Tagliabue sitting in the same luxury booth right beside Dan Rooney who got him his job as an NFL godfather and kingmaker .
I don’t think money changed hands other than whoever had ties to gambling and of course jersey sales . But the bias was not “unintentional “ that’s a crock. Years later Leavey admitted “ booting a couple of calls that affected the outcome “. But he’s not the back judge who had 1 huge opi call then let everything Pittsburgh did go .

Totally intentional and it worked perfectly . Seattle lost 187 yards of offense including a 40+ yard return stopped by a phantom hold , a touchdown , a first and goal on the one after starting on our 2 that took a series of 2 bad calls and about 4 no calls on Pittsburgh to end up with them on the 45 with the ball . For the game we had more yards , more first downs , more time of possession . But every big play we made all year with under 50 penalties was suddenly illegal . Nothing accidental . Rigged by the league . No way was Tags gonna be crying in his beer with Rooney that night .

[curmudgeon]

XL officiating certainly questionable. Another thing. Check out the “performance” of Seattle’s punter that day…….

[Hawktawk]

Ok fair enough. And our kicker . And our coach . But it’s the super bowl . Their Qb had a 22 rating , 2 picks and no TDs and a gift rush TD. More gifted by the ability of Faneca to hold DD from completely behind him to allow Ben the score . They weren’t called for a hold all night despite us having the second most sacks in the league that year . Just because Seattle made it easier still doesn’t explain the blatant calls and even worse in that game NO CALLS without which we would have won anyway . It was a pre determined outcome that night .

[Aseahawkfan]

I think there was definitely bias in Super Bowl XL. I think it was less about gambling and more about revitalizing one of the NFL's most popular franchises at the expense of one of the NFL's smaller market franchises. They definitely wanted to keep the game close and probably thought Seattle might blow out Pittsburgh out if they didn't stop them from getting on a roll. Then went overboard and created an incredibly boring, frustrating game for Seattle fans and really anyone watching wanting a competitive Super Bowl. Then couple that with a key injury and it made for a very boring game with too much referee interference. But it did the job revitalizing Pittsburgh and making Ben R look way better than he was.

[RiverDog]

I think there was definitely bias in Super Bowl XL. I think it was less about gambling and more about revitalizing one of the NFL's most popular franchises at the expense of one of the NFL's smaller market franchises. They definitely wanted to keep the game close and probably thought Seattle might blow out Pittsburgh out if they didn't stop them from getting on a roll. Then went overboard and created an incredibly boring, frustrating game for Seattle fans and really anyone watching wanting a competitive Super Bowl. Then couple that with a key injury and it made for a very boring game with too much referee interference. But it did the job revitalizing Pittsburgh and making Ben R look way better than he was.

Seattle isn't a small market franchise, more like a mid market as the MSA is ranked 15th nationwide. But I get your point, that the Steelers, along with the Packers, Cowboys, Raiders, Niners, and a few other franchises, are the marquee names that everyone recognizes. I don't think that there was anything intentional or conscious, but I do think that the entire aura, with the crowd, big name franchise, HOF'er Goober Bradshaw working for Fox, all had a cumulative effect that caused an unconscious bias.

[Hawktawk]

I think there was definitely bias in Super Bowl XL. I think it was less about gambling and more about revitalizing one of the NFL's most popular franchises at the expense of one of the NFL's smaller market franchises. They definitely wanted to keep the game close and probably thought Seattle might blow out Pittsburgh out if they didn't stop them from getting on a roll. Then went overboard and created an incredibly boring, frustrating game for Seattle fans and really anyone watching wanting a competitive Super Bowl. Then couple that with a key injury and it made for a very boring game with too much referee interference. But it did the job revitalizing Pittsburgh and making Ben R look way better than he was.

I agree more with this take than any other one I’ve read here . Looking at the conference championships and the way Seattle rolled up Carolina there was a definite league plan . We lost the league sponsored commercials by a mile. I remember a gate “accudently” popping up and wrecking a van carrying Walter and other linemen entering the stadium. Probably a coincidence but it fit right in . I’ll focus on one stretch to show how biased the officials were . Seattle takes the ball at the 2 and marches down the field . Without the refs Pittsburgh could not stop them . That all changed on the Pittsburgh 20 when Hass fired it to Stevens on the 1. Flag for holding . Haggins is clearly offsides by a lot on the same play . Locklear punched him in the chest on the way by, spun out and showed his hand to the ref when he was starting to lose leverage . Madden said it wasn’t a hold . Baldinger said “ guys offsides , terrible call”. First and 20 handoff to SA who breaks into the second level . Porter launched and got one hand on his shoulder pads and ripped him down . SA was going to get the first down otherwise . Michaels in the booth “ that looked a lot like a horse collar but they probably aren’t going to call that ( both he and madden laughed ) even the announcers had it figured out . Next play Haggins is even further offsides and sacks Hass . On 3rd and forever Hass cracks and throws the pick and gets called for a low block setting up
Pittsburgh on the 45. It didn’t matter what type of game Seattle played I believe they would have lost due to officials flags .

[tarlhawk]

These aren't the "run of the mill complaints" that have always existed. The "old days" didn't have refs that caught every miscue...the game was allowed to flow affording the casual fan to observe the ebb and tide of momentum...either by a stellar defensive play or more usual a long tackle breaking run. Now with so much camera coverage and the advantage of slow-mo and close-up views...the game has been "allowed" to turn into a complex alteration of rules with too many grey areas for rule comprehension and a feeling of constant interruption by late flags. Its the late flags that draw the most suspicion...in an ever increasing world of heavy cash flow due to legalized betting the NFL has not taken many safeguards. I find it hard to believe an entire officiating crew would be "on the take" but one or two would be enough to upset the balance of integrity. Example: A ref of integrity throws a flag similar to the one Pass Interference "no call" on DJ Dallas...a ref on the take (especially if senior) could "convince" the other ref to pick up his flag or throw a "late flag" for holding to off-set the outcome not "meant" to occur. This year alone it seems I've seen too many "late" flags...flags picked back up...or flag thrown then offset by a late flag against the other team...and too many on 3rd Down or during momentum killing plays...if the games integrity slips away because even your tv commentators are calling out these "ghost calls" then fans will grow to hate the roller coaster effect of a great play dashed by a "late call"...even after a commercial break on one occasion.

I wrote this in our post labeled "Refs" and still find concern for a game I have grown to love over most of my adult life...say it isn't so!

[Hawktawk]

I’m with you Tarihawk . Have been since XL but this year alone there were numerous examples of all you say . I’m not giving up a 50 year passion but it hacks me off. I keep going back to the incredible play where the Rams player blasts a Saints receiver long before the ball could have arrived in the 2019 title game . I had personal foul and pi in my view . No freakin call . It’s what led to the one year failure experiment to challenge PI. New York refused to overturn bad call or make up no calls . PI is the call that changes a game the most , or opi or a no call on PI.

No calls are as bad or worse than any call that can be made . Holding can be called every play and we hear it all the time . In XL Pittsburgh got called for none and we had 4 I believe . I think there’s a problem with the integrity of the game and it doesn’t involve much more than bragging rights among billionaires , paybacks for league pillars .

I really worry about this game . I want to see a great game may the best team win but no refs being discussed . I think Goodell loves the Rams owner and wants to see him rewarded for fulfilling Goodys dream of bringing football to LA again and building that opulent stadium .perfect ending is Kroenkie holding up a Lombardi . I think everyone knows that including the zebras who are celebrities in their own right . Very worried . Hope to be wrong about all of it. I actually want Cincy to crush them .

[tarlhawk]

The only remedy for the players to take back the outcome of a game is to get at least a two score lead late in the game...which is why I worry with Seattle always seemingly involved in close scores these last few years. If our fans weren't called the Twelves...they would be labeled something akin to Cardiac Watch.

[Hawktawk]

The only remedy for the players to take back the outcome of a game is to get at least a two score lead late in the game...which is why I worry with Seattle always seemingly involved in close scores these last few years. If our fans weren't called the Twelves...they would be labeled something akin to Cardiac Watch.

I completely agree . Even in 48 it seemed early on the refs were iffy spotting Wilson a yard short on a scramble . Seattle just throttled them so severely they had no chance and the game wound up even . I just re watched the dynasty killer SB 49 and although at the time I didn’t really focus on it there were a few curious calls and definitely some key no calls that wound up affecting the outcome in the end . Still that ones on Bevfool, PC and Russ .

[tarlhawk]

That particular play call will always be second guessed...especially when a natural bias occurs whenever there is a bad outcome to a "poor" decision. I thought Pete handled the media the correct way pointing out that the "failure" was in the lack of the TEAM executing the play. Individuals could be called out but in the end it was the Offense failing to execute a play seldom utilized. I still find it ODD that their rookie cornerback (Malcom Butler) "recognized" the play called giving him the confidence to JUMP the route and stating in a post game question as to seeing that play called out in the Patriots pre-game practices when it was only used once or twice only during the regular season. Perhaps Belicheck is a genius in practicing against an opponents rarely called plays.

[Hawktawk]

Post game Butler told a story of Belichick in practice for the super bowl having him defend a pick route on the right side every practice , over and over . He kept telling him “ get over the top , you can’t stop it any other way “ BB had identified it as a sure thing go to play Seattle had run 3 times on the season with 3 TDs . Butler was put in the game earlier and was a huge part of slowing Seattle in the second half . After the game he said he never got home once in practice against that play . It was a terrible call on every level . Total personell mismatch . Not using any threat of a run such as play action or read option. I know you don’t want to hear it but ultimately Russ threw it high and wide which was the only way Butler could get the ball. Butler was racing to the spot before the snap from about 8 yards deep .I’ve seen private footage . He read the play pre snap .

Russ never saw him or identified him pre snap . He can be heard on the sidelines “ I hate to lose! Where did he come from ?
Just an awful loss . No matter what Russ or Seattle accomplishes in the future that really wrecked this era .

[Aseahawkfan]

Post game Butler told a story of Belichick in practice for the super bowl having him defend a pick route on the right side every practice , over and over . He kept telling him “ get over the top , you can’t stop it any other way “ BB had identified it as a sure thing go to play Seattle had run 3 times on the season with 3 TDs . Butler was put in the game earlier and was a huge part of slowing Seattle in the second half . After the game he said he never got home once in practice against that play . It was a terrible call on every level . Total personell mismatch . Not using any threat of a run such as play action or read option. I know you don’t want to hear it but ultimately Russ threw it high and wide which was the only way Butler could get the ball. Butler was racing to the spot before the snap from about 8 yards deep .I’ve seen private footage . He read the play pre snap .

Russ never saw him or identified him pre snap . He can be heard on the sidelines “ I hate to lose! Where did he come from ?
Just an awful loss . No matter what Russ or Seattle accomplishes in the future that really wrecked this era .

Lockett had never gotten a TD off that route that season. I know that 100 percent.

[RiverDog]

Post game Butler told a story of Belichick in practice for the super bowl having him defend a pick route on the right side every practice , over and over . He kept telling him “ get over the top , you can’t stop it any other way “ BB had identified it as a sure thing go to play Seattle had run 3 times on the season with 3 TDs . Butler was put in the game earlier and was a huge part of slowing Seattle in the second half . After the game he said he never got home once in practice against that play . It was a terrible call on every level . Total personell mismatch . Not using any threat of a run such as play action or read option. I know you don’t want to hear it but ultimately Russ threw it high and wide which was the only way Butler could get the ball. Butler was racing to the spot before the snap from about 8 yards deep .I’ve seen private footage . He read the play pre snap .

Russ never saw him or identified him pre snap . He can be heard on the sidelines “ I hate to lose! Where did he come from ?
Just an awful loss . No matter what Russ or Seattle accomplishes in the future that really wrecked this era .

Lockett had never gotten a TD off that route that season. I know that 100 percent.

ASF is 100% correct. Lockette scored 2 receiving TD's in 2014, one vs. the Broncos from 39 yards out and the other against the Packers from 33 yards away. He had no TD's in post season.

But that doesn't mean that another receiver besides Lockette could have scored TD's off that route.

[Aseahawkfan]

ASF is 100% correct. Lockette scored 2 receiving TD's in 2014, one vs. the Broncos from 39 yards out and the other against the Packers from 33 yards away. He had no TD's in post season.

But that doesn't mean that another receiver besides Lockette could have scored TD's off that route.

Maybe Baldwin got a TD on that route, I don't know. I made sure to look up Lockette. He had run that route two or three times closer to the middle of the field when the field was not compressed as it was in the Super Bowl. Lockette was not a good route runner. Did not have good hands. Lockette's claim to fame was speed and size. He never made a high level starting receiver position due to bad hands and route running. He could pretty much run the go route, but not precision routes. His speed was off the charts and he ran something like a 4.2 40. But his route running and hands never allowed him to take advantage of his incredible physical ability.

That's one of the main reasons I can't stand Bevell for calling that play. He put his players in a position to fail and they did spectacularly. He clearly did not think that play out well at all.

[Hawktawk]

BB identified a route that was 3 for 3 on the year and groomed a guy to beat it. It made it that much easier when Seattle put Kearse on Browner needing to get off him and make a pick . Nobody’s getting off Browner there . He’s grabbing cloth and taking his chances which he did . And with the injury to P rich we had a guy who wasn’t a starter on the route . I never said Lockett had scored on that play .having recently watched the game Beast was stuffed twice in short yardage earlier lending a bit of credibility to maybe throw . But that play with a non starting receiver ? And in the end it’s a ball that has to be precise and low , directly on the receivers body to shield the ball . Ideally you just throw the receiver under the rug . Low ball right on them and they go in sliding with no contact . Hass was a master at that throw all over the field . I remember him throwing one to Krob to beat the Rams like that.

As Huard said later if the coach sends in a skunk the QB has to make sure it doesn’t stink . It was a bad ball. It would have been a good catch even without Butler picking it . Lockette has lifted off the ground stretching out with full extension when Butler scooped it . Bevfool blamed Lockette , said he should have driven harder out of the cut . So there was a blame game it’s just with the coaches Russ wasn’t part of that game . He took it anyway but really it wrecked a dynasty in the making . Most awful moment in team history a year after the best . That’s how it goes . But Bevfool should have been gone the next day .

[Aseahawkfan]

BB identified a route that was 3 for 3 on the year and groomed a guy to beat it. It made it that much easier when Seattle put Kearse on Browner needing to get off him and make a pick . Nobody’s getting off Browner there . He’s grabbing cloth and taking his chances which he did . And with the injury to P rich we had a guy who wasn’t a starter on the route . I never said Lockett had scored on that play .having recently watched the game Beast was stuffed twice in short yardage earlier lending a bit of credibility to maybe throw . But that play with a non starting receiver ? And in the end it’s a ball that has to be precise and low , directly on the receivers body to shield the ball . Ideally you just throw the receiver under the rug . Low ball right on them and they go in sliding with no contact . Hass was a master at that throw all over the field . I remember him throwing one to Krob to beat the Rams like that.

As Huard said later if the coach sends in a skunk the QB has to make sure it doesn’t stink . It was a bad ball. It would have been a good catch even without Butler picking it . Lockette has lifted off the ground stretching out with full extension when Butler scooped it . Bevfool blamed Lockette , said he should have driven harder out of the cut . So there was a blame game it’s just with the coaches Russ wasn’t part of that game . He took it anyway but really it wrecked a dynasty in the making . Most awful moment in team history a year after the best . That’s how it goes . But Bevfool should have been gone the next day .

It was crazy when I heard Bevell expected Kearse to pick Browner. Browner played for us. There is a video of Browner blowing up three people in a punt or kick return. Blasting right through all three of them. He beat down Greg Jennings during an on the field altercation. Browner was a 6'4" 220 lb. CB who was one of the most physical CBs to ever play in the NFL. One of the reasons he couldn't flip his hips is because of his size. Kearse wasn't picking Brandon Browner. That was a ridiculous idea to start with that I'm surprised Pete signed off on it given he knew Brandon Browner was one of the most physical DBs in the league. Pete must have had one of his distracted moments when he signed off on that garbage.

[Hawktawk]

Love Pete. Pete went on 4th and 2 with Reggie Bush on the bench in the Natty . Pete outthinks himself , thinks he’s smarter . He’s a great coach , hall of fame coach . But we have 1 Lombardi instead of 3 . Look no further than Atlanta in 2012 divisional and the strange coaching decisions . Obviously the end of 49 was the worst but we also kicked a field goal on 4th and short deep in New England territory in the third quarter . ET can be heard saying “ 3 isn’t enough “. It wasn’t . Watching that game I also saw that even in 2014 we had trouble consistently moving the chains too . Chunk or punt it’s the Seattle way say what you will . Super Bowl 49 and how it ended damaged the coach and players psychologically imo . I know it did one fan . We had a debate on this forum about what it would do to that incredibly talented team . 7 years later we have 5 playoff teams with 3 wins and 5 losses . All wins are WCs . In the divisional round Seattle has not led in the second half in 4 of the 5 games and has NEVER LED in 3 of those games . I don’t buy the cupboard is bare . I don’t think Pete can’t coach .

I think the team needs a shrink .

[curmudgeon]

I think the team needs a shrink .

The team needs an exorcist…….

[Hawktawk]

I think the team needs a shrink .
The team needs an exorcist…….

Maybe

[RiverDog]

Maybe Baldwin got a TD on that route, I don't know. I made sure to look up Lockette. He had run that route two or three times closer to the middle of the field when the field was not compressed as it was in the Super Bowl. Lockette was not a good route runner. Did not have good hands. Lockette's claim to fame was speed and size. He never made a high level starting receiver position due to bad hands and route running. He could pretty much run the go route, but not precision routes. His speed was off the charts and he ran something like a 4.2 40. But his route running and hands never allowed him to take advantage of his incredible physical ability.

That's one of the main reasons I can't stand Bevell for calling that play. He put his players in a position to fail and they did spectacularly. He clearly did not think that play out well at all.

I agree completely. Lockette was a poor choice on that call.

But my biggest problem was the play call itself. They were infatuated with being able to utilize all 4 downs, which is why they chose to pass. I don't disagree with a pass play in that situation, indeed, it wasn't a bad choice as the Pats had their short yardage run defense in, but I didn't like putting a 5'10" QB in a drop back formation throwing over the middle of the field and a defense that had just 11 yards behind their backs to defend. It was an invitation for a deflected pass that could have been picked off. I would have rather ran a timing route to the corner or a crossing route to the back of the end zone where only our receiver had a chance to catch it if we insisted on keeping Russell in the pocket. My first choice would have been some type of RPO, getting Russell on the move and the secondary having to move with him, with instructions to throw it away unless a receiver was wide open.

[RiverDog]

Love Pete. Pete went on 4th and 2 with Reggie Bush on the bench in the Natty . Pete outthinks himself , thinks he’s smarter . He’s a great coach , hall of fame coach . But we have 1 Lombardi instead of 3 . Look no further than Atlanta in 2012 divisional and the strange coaching decisions . Obviously the end of 49 was the worst but we also kicked a field goal on 4th and short deep in New England territory in the third quarter . ET can be heard saying “ 3 isn’t enough “. It wasn’t . Watching that game I also saw that even in 2014 we had trouble consistently moving the chains too . Chunk or punt it’s the Seattle way say what you will . Super Bowl 49 and how it ended damaged the coach and players psychologically imo . I know it did one fan . We had a debate on this forum about what it would do to that incredibly talented team . 7 years later we have 5 playoff teams with 3 wins and 5 losses . All wins are WCs . In the divisional round Seattle has not led in the second half in 4 of the 5 games and has NEVER LED in 3 of those games . I don’t buy the cupboard is bare . I don’t think Pete can’t coach .

I think the team needs a shrink .

I remember that game, USC vs. Texas, and I agree with your appraisal of Pete.

[NorthHawk]

But my biggest problem was the play call itself. They were infatuated with being able to utilize all 4 downs, which is why they chose to pass. I don't disagree with a pass play in that situation, indeed, it wasn't a bad choice as the Pats had their short yardage run defense in, but I didn't like putting a 5'10" QB in a drop back formation throwing over the middle of the field and a defense that had just 11 yards behind their backs to defend. It was an invitation for a deflected pass that could have been picked off. I would have rather ran a timing route to the corner or a crossing route to the back of the end zone where only our receiver had a chance to catch it if we insisted on keeping Russell in the pocket. My first choice would have been some type of RPO, getting Russell on the move and the secondary having to move with him, with instructions to throw it away unless a receiver was wide open.

I never had a problem with passing then, but as I’ve said before we had at the time the most creative QB in the league,
so a rollout to the wide side of the field would have been a better choice. Why take the ball out of his hands with a
quick throw into the bunched up Defense? If he had rolled out he would have had three options run it in himself,
throw to a receiver in the end zone or throw it away. It would have forced the defender to commit and Wilson could
have taken advantage of it.
It was just a boneheaded play call at the time.

[RiverDog]

But my biggest problem was the play call itself. They were infatuated with being able to utilize all 4 downs, which is why they chose to pass. I don't disagree with a pass play in that situation, indeed, it wasn't a bad choice as the Pats had their short yardage run defense in, but I didn't like putting a 5'10" QB in a drop back formation throwing over the middle of the field and a defense that had just 11 yards behind their backs to defend. It was an invitation for a deflected pass that could have been picked off. I would have rather ran a timing route to the corner or a crossing route to the back of the end zone where only our receiver had a chance to catch it if we insisted on keeping Russell in the pocket. My first choice would have been some type of RPO, getting Russell on the move and the secondary having to move with him, with instructions to throw it away unless a receiver was wide open.

I never had a problem with passing then, but as I’ve said before we had at the time the most creative QB in the league,
so a rollout to the wide side of the field would have been a better choice. Why take the ball out of his hands with a
quick throw into the bunched up Defense? If he had rolled out he would have had three options run it in himself,
throw to a receiver in the end zone or throw it away. It would have forced the defender to commit and Wilson could
have taken advantage of it.
It was just a boneheaded play call at the time.

You're preaching to the choir.

[Hawktawk]

Watching the play Russ is in the pistol , basically takes the snap and throws . He’s looking right at the snap . One receiver route , failed pick , inexperienced receiver and a poor throw and it was still a few inches from glory . One more painful observation then I’ll stop . Lynch was in read option formation but broke left and ran a little wheel route to the left corner where he was all alone as Russ fired the doomed pass. Ok that’s it for me .. maybe next year . Hard to get that Lombardi drug out of your bloodstream .

[Aseahawkfan]

Love Pete. Pete went on 4th and 2 with Reggie Bush on the bench in the Natty . Pete outthinks himself , thinks he’s smarter . He’s a great coach , hall of fame coach . But we have 1 Lombardi instead of 3 . Look no further than Atlanta in 2012 divisional and the strange coaching decisions . Obviously the end of 49 was the worst but we also kicked a field goal on 4th and short deep in New England territory in the third quarter . ET can be heard saying “ 3 isn’t enough “. It wasn’t . Watching that game I also saw that even in 2014 we had trouble consistently moving the chains too . Chunk or punt it’s the Seattle way say what you will . Super Bowl 49 and how it ended damaged the coach and players psychologically imo . I know it did one fan . We had a debate on this forum about what it would do to that incredibly talented team . 7 years later we have 5 playoff teams with 3 wins and 5 losses . All wins are WCs . In the divisional round Seattle has not led in the second half in 4 of the 5 games and has NEVER LED in 3 of those games . I don’t buy the cupboard is bare . I don’t think Pete can’t coach .

I think the team needs a shrink .

Why do you keep pushing this cupboard bare garbage? The cupboard is not bare. Teams are not cupboards.

There are very specific issues with the team holding us back.

1. Defensive line is terrible. They can't get pressure. They can't stop the run consistently. They get no push. They can't control the line of scrimmage. If you can't do this, your defense is going to suck.

2. CBs are a revolving door. We don't have quality CBs. We traded for CBs with injury issues in the middle of the season because our starting CBs are not getting the job done.

3. The run game is inconsistent. We don't have a RB that can stay healthy and maintain production for the season. We need a guy who will be there week in and week out and especially for the playoffs.

WRs we're in great shape. QB is in great shape. O-line is questionable, but serviceable. Safety position when healthy is good. LBs can still make tackles. TE could use an upgrade, but we've never relied on amazing TE play to win.

D-line, CBs, and run game are big holes on our team. Huge gaping holes. The entire reason our ToP was so bad is the lack of a defensive line that can hold against the run and get pressure and lack of a run game to eat clock. Pete can still coach, but those elements have to be fixed or we're cooked before we even start the season.

[NorthHawk]

I think the OL needs more help than you suggest. They haven't been able to grind out drives on a consistent basis
to give the Defense time to recover. As well, the Secondary is under massive pressure when there is very little in the
way of a pass rush and we have to rely on blitzes. The Secondary does need help, but I don't think it's as big a concern
as both sides of the LoS.

[RiverDog]

I think the OL needs more help than you suggest. They haven't been able to grind out drives on a consistent basis
to give the Defense time to recover. As well, the Secondary is under massive pressure when there is very little in the
way of a pass rush and we have to rely on blitzes. The Secondary does need help, but I don't think it's as big a concern
as both sides of the LoS.

I'm with North Hawk on this one, and the opinion is supported by PFF's rankings. They have our offensive line ranked 25th. Last season, we were more in the middle of the pack, #16 if I recall.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021 ... e-rankings

Defensive line is worse, ranked 29th, better only than the Jags, Texans, and Falcons.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-al ... 021-season

I'm not saying that PFF should be treated as if it were the Holy Bible, but it is the most often used analysis.

[Hawktawk]

PFF grades 17 games . Last few Seattle had no problems and looked as good on either line of scrimmage as all year . I think it’s why Jodi walked it back . We had a slew of pressures and sacks the last few games and our back went off for almost 700 yards , qb threw for 12 touchdowns and 3 picks in that span . I feel real good if everyone’s back .

[RiverDog]

PFF grades 17 games . Last few Seattle had no problems and looked as good on either line of scrimmage as all year . I think it’s why Jodi walked it back . We had a slew of pressures and sacks the last few games and our back went off for almost 700 yards , qb threw for 12 touchdowns and 3 picks in that span . I feel real good if everyone’s back .

You also have to consider our competition in those last few games. 3 of the last 5 teams, Houston, Chicago, and Detroit, had a combined record of 13-37-1.

Don't forget, you yourself has said that the goal isn't merely to repeat 2020 when we went 12-4 but were one and done in the playoffs. We need to improve, and not just a tweak here and a tweak there. We're more than a player or two away.

[NorthHawk]

I expect if everyone is back to have a winning record, but I don't expect us to go deep into the playoffs.
If you look at last years final 5 games we didn't play any team that was playing well at that time including the Rams who were showing some signs of struggle.
We also lost to them and the Bears in that stretch.
So I don't think the last part of the season gives any reason to be optimistic.

[tarlhawk]

Our last 6 teams of 2021...Taking into account the three games prior to playing us and the two games after playing us should capture them as patsies or a challenge as any NFL team can be.

Wk 12 49ers arrived having won all 3 of previous games including Rams and Vikings. After we beat them they then beat both the Bengals and the Falcons.

Wk 13 we played the Texans (1-3) coming in with only win being the Titans. After we beat them they won both their next 2 games with one win being the LA Chargers.

Wk 14 the Rams arrived (2-1) with a win over the Cards and the loss playing Green Bay at home. After our loss to them they beat the Vikings and Ravens.

Wk 15 the Bears arrived on a cold wintry day having lost all 3 of their games to the Cards/Packers/Vikings. After our loss they beat the Giants while losing another game to the Vikings.

Wk 16 Lions (1-2) arrived with only win in last 3 games being against the Cards. After we beat them they won their final season game against the Packers.

Wk 17 the Cards (1-2) arrived as the only team (besides the Bears) reeling in its last 3 games with its single win being a close Dallas victory. After losing to us they got destroyed by the Rams in the WC playoffs. So our last 6 games played were not cakewalks but competitive for the time period we were facing them. The way we played those 6 games (Chicago Bears was the only real blight) gives hope and good feelings entering the off season.