Can we win another SB with RW

[Aseahawkfan]

That is the problem. We are not getting our money's worth, not even close. I'm not saying it's all on Rus either. PC wants to play a certain brand of football that does not need an elite QB to run. My thing has always been if we are going to pay RW like he is the guy then we need an offense that uses him as the guy. Right now our offense is stay ahead of the sticks, don't turn the ball over etc... The problem with that for us is the fact that it puts you in a lot of 3rd and 5 or shorter situations, which is actually the only real weakness in RW's game. He has been really bad at third down. So we are paying a guy top dollar to run an offense that is not focused on his skill set (I do think there are aspects of our offense that do suit his skill set, like PA passing but that is a part of every offense) and continually forces him to try and be successful at his weakness. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. We saw RW at his best to a few years ago and it was a record breaking offense. At the first sign of trouble PC lost his crap and toned everything down. He complained that teams were playing too much 2 high safety on them. If you can't run plays that beat 2 high safties in the NFL then you are in trouble. Part of that is running the ball when they are giving you that look, but another part of that is motions and getting the ball to your guys in space underneath. The Bills ran a 2 high look most of the night vs. the Cheifs and the Chiefs were able to shred them. It does seem like the NFL is changing and PC is having a hard time changing with it (I would love to eat crow on this!!)

How are you not getting your money's worth? One down year? Who exactly is getting their money's worth in this league? Who is winning every year? The winning team changes every year, so by your definition no one is getting their money's worth.

We went to the Super Bowl twice this decade, which is more than most teams.

I don't get you guys. We literally go forty years going to the Super Bowl one time and now we have fans on here thinking it's easy to get to the Super Bowl or compete in the playoffs like it happens every year for every team.

It's hard to compete every year. It's hard to get to the Super Bowl. It's even harder if you don't have a great QB.

Russ misses the playoffs this year and gets injured, suddenly he's the problem.

[Hawktawk]

Again I’d love to be wrong and the difference with lots in the forum is I will own it . I just sense we have seen the best of Russell and it’s important to decide If it’s worth forcing him to stay if he wants to go or get the draft haul and start over . Jimmy G is a game from his second SB in 3 years . If we’re paying 35 million better be getting our money’s worth

What a bunch of horse puckey.

You're a whiner and a bad fan. You turn on the QB who has given every thing to Seattle for all of his career after a bad year. You constantly whine on the forum when the team doesn't do well. I guess by your own definition of bad and whining, you're a bad fan and whiner who turns on the guy giving his fall for the team since 2012 after a bad year based on some interviews where he answered the question asked.[/quote]

If pointing out stats means I’m turning on the qb, pointing out his petulant demands wrapped in a pr campaign while reflecting on the stats makes me a bad fan ok I guess I’m bad . If wanting long term success for the franchise as opposed to some obsession with Russell …..

you have recency amnesia . 1 playoff win last 5 years and none this year and no clutch Russ . I love Hass to this day but I was ready for him to leave when it was time . Russ has made a play behind the scenes to explore trades 2 years in a row now and it’s surely underway again . Listen Asea you’re one of the most intelligent people here including x and o but you’re sure hung up on 7 years ago .

I’ve supported Russ from day one but I’ve been a fan from the first year of the franchises existence and I’ve cheered lots of QBs and ragged on them in the next breath . I’ve never seen a better QB than Russ in the uniform or more complicated by 10x.

I supported him after 49 which his decision to run that play and the terrible throw lost winning back to back superbowls for him and his team and all of us in Seahawks nation , the single most awful moment in team history .

I’ve supported him over the 3-5 record in the postseason since 2014 with the 3 wins being WCs, the fact we have one postseason win in now 6 seasons . Now a brutal year much of which is his fault . He blew 2 games before being hurt .

Worst third down completion % in the league and going back to previous years 3 rd down is his bugaboo .


I guess you have decided it’s 1 bad year , nothing to see here , anyone who thinks different is a bad fan. I feel like when anyone on my team doesn’t want to stay they don’t want me as a fan of them on my team because it’s more my team than theirs . I’ve been on the roster as #12 45 years . It’s not really becoming of you to be engaging in personal attacks over beliefs held by people in a sports forum but I seem to be the target .

He’s an NFL Qb making 35 million and a fair target for criticism based on his own actions off the field and a down year on it . It takes nothing away from his accomplishment or right to be respected for his accomplishments . But I always hear recency bias . That’s what the league is about , recency , not career records .

As has been said if you’re missing open receivers it doesn’t matter who the coach is . If that makes me a bad fan so be it .

[tarlhawk]

He got what he wanted in the new HC meaning he got the players he wanted and had input that was valued. Wilson got neither and was shunned when
he offered his plan to help the Offense. That and being stuffed into Pete's view of how the Offense should run is pushing him to want to move on.

He got what he wanted? Then why the continued talk of wanting out...or hanging up the "cleats" (retirement)? Russell has a good rapport with his team mates. Tom Brady wasn't already in Tampa Bay when he "got the players he wanted" Tampa Bay lured him not the other way around so their discussions were no doubt slanted to his desires...so he got Gronk to come out of "retirement" and "influenced/lobbied " Le'Veon Bell/Anthony Brown. Rodgers "influenced" getting Randall Cobb back? He has DaVonte Adams and Russ has DK and Russ "lobbied" for Waldron as our new Offensive Coordinator.

[Hawktawk]

Denver just hired Hackett the GB offensive coordinator Rodgers loves . So that’s interesting . Rodgers is interested in moving on and Denver had interest last year .

[NorthHawk]

He got what he wanted? Then why the continued talk of wanting out...or hanging up the "cleats" (retirement)? Russell has a good rapport with his team mates. Tom Brady wasn't already in Tampa Bay when he "got the players he wanted" Tampa Bay lured him not the other way around so their discussions were no doubt slanted to his desires...so he got Gronk to come out of "retirement" and "influenced/lobbied " Le'Veon Bell/Anthony Brown. Rodgers "influenced" getting Randall Cobb back? He has DaVonte Adams and Russ has DK and Russ "lobbied" for Waldron as our new Offensive Coordinator.

Yah, Rodgers got what he wanted. Read about it.
Brady got to use the plays he's comfortable with and they changed their Offense for him - as well, he got Gronk and Brown as he wanted.
Russ on the other hand was ignored (some reports said laughed out of the room, but who knows) for providing his input and he didn't get
any of the players he wanted nor did he get an improved OL.
Russ is still unhappy and Rodgers is fine with coming back to play for GB if he decides he still has the fire inside to compete at the NFL level.

[mykc14]

How are you not getting your money's worth? One down year? Who exactly is getting their money's worth in this league? Who is winning every year? The winning team changes every year, so by your definition no one is getting their money's worth.

We went to the Super Bowl twice this decade, which is more than most teams.

I don't get you guys. We literally go forty years going to the Super Bowl one time and now we have fans on here thinking it's easy to get to the Super Bowl or compete in the playoffs like it happens every year for every team.

It's hard to compete every year. It's hard to get to the Super Bowl. It's even harder if you don't have a great QB.

Russ misses the playoffs this year and gets injured, suddenly he's the problem.

I think you need to re-read my post. My point wasn’t about RW not giving us our money’s worth it was mainly about us paying for an elite QB but having an offensive philosophy that handcuffs him. That’s why we aren’t getting our money’s worth. Our offense is tailored to RW one weakness. It’s like we have a Ferrari and the only time we drive it we pile all the kids in and to take them to school treating it like a mini-van. Yeah it’s cool to drive the Ferrari, but you’re not getting your money’s worth. It would be better to spend way less, buy the best minivan money can buy and drive the kids to school in that. Or, if you want to pay for the Ferrari, stick the kids on the bus and go drive that Ferrari the way it was meant to drive. PC allowed the Ferrari out for a few games to start 2020, got a ding in the door and the next day it was piled full of kids driving 25 MPH all the way to school.

[mykc14]

Russ misses the playoffs this year and gets injured, suddenly he's the problem.

I do t think RW is the problem and I never have. Honestly I think the problem is that PC keeps looking back to how we were successful in 2012, 13, 14 and trying to ‘re-tool’ our team back to that. I don’t blame him, as a coach if you have had success and a philosophy you’ve been playing with for decades the pull to go back to that when things aren’t working has to be strong. IMO what he’s missing is the fact that the financial make-up of our team is way different than it was back then. We were able to have the highest paid corner, MLB, and S in the NFL (or at least top 3 in all those positions). We were able to spend the most money in the NFL on the OL. We were able to pay multiple very good pass rushers. None of that works when you are paying your QB 35 mil. I mean with the amount of money you are paying RW you could have the best corner in the game ( Ramsey 20 mil/year) and Safety. Combine that with how much BWags is making and it’s tough. When tipsy guys that much money on offense they need to be the centerpiece. When you make a guy the highest paid player at their position on D he better be a Defensive Player of the Year candidate. BW earned his money but I wouldn’t have him back for 20 mil and Adam’s certainly isn’t worth the money we are paying him. The pint is the financial make up of our team doesn’t allow us to play like we used to. We can’t make contract mistakes and we can’t have the em rounded team we had back then.

[Hawktawk]

Reported in the athletic this morning Seattle has made it clear they will only trade Russ if “forced “ by a trade demand or a demand to have a new deal . Carrol is not interested in rebuilding . Looking more by the day we will run all 3 of the big 3 back .

[RiverDog]

Interesting take by two former Seahawks that align perfectly with the OP:

Just a single game remains in the 2021 NFL season, and for the seventh consecutive season the final game of the season will not include the Seattle Seahawks. With that subject in mind, the discussion Monday turned, once again, to the idea that perhaps Seattle could be a more complete, more competitive team if Russell Wilson weren’t taking up so much of the salary cap. This is an issue that fans and observers have discussed at length in recent seasons, but this time around it wasn’t just any old fan or observer. It was former Seahawks linebacker K.J. Wright while speaking to 950 KJR host Dick Fain.

“You never want to count anybody’s pockets, but if you have all this money and your goal is to win, then you have to take a little bit less to eat so everybody can eat. We saw how Brady did it and look at him now.” @KJ_WRIGHT34 with us talking about Russell Wilson’s contract

"At some point in your career, if winning Super Bowls really does matter to you, you might have to take a pay cut." @cliffavril with us just now. "Taking a pay cut now will definitely benefit you later in life if you go out and win another SB."

That's just the beginning and it might be a little deceiving as to the premise of the article. Here's the last two paragraphs:

How can the Rams compete and potential walk away from the 2021 season with a Lombardi with more than a quarter of the salary cap tied up in the quarterback position while a team like Seattle is spending $15M less on the position but needs Wilson to take a discount to be competitive? The simple answer is that the Rams have developed a system wherein they avoid giving bigger contract to the positions that are the easiest to replace, specifically off-ball linebackers and running backs, while at the same time paying their tackles and then using the interior of the offensive line to develop players. Their system certainly isn’t perfect, and their skimping on linebackers nearly cost them in the NFC Championship game, but at the end of the day they came away with yet another postseason win and a second shot at a Super Bowl in the past four years, something the Seahawks haven’t had in seven years now.

What does it all mean? It means that at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter how much of the salary cap is allocated to the quarterback position because it’s a team game and while a good quarterback is effectively a requirement to win the Super Bowl, it means nothing if the team surround the quarterback is lacking in key areas. Fans across the league know what happens when a team with a bad quarterback makes it to the Super Bowl, and that’s that the quarterback is only able to lead their team to three points in the most important game of the year.

https://nokri-news.com/former-seahawks- ... -contract/

In any event. it's a good read.

[NorthHawk]

Unfortunately OUR "plan" is to just plug holes and not develop players along the interior of the OL.
We are overpaying at Safety more than QB and have let the DL fall in talent. KC revamped their
OL in 1 season and we're still trying to get it together after 10. Packers added a C and LG to upgrade via the draft.
The original plan has been abandoned for quick fixes under the misguided impression that we are
close to challenging for a SB.

[Hawktawk]

Unfortunately OUR "plan" is to just plug holes and not develop players along the interior of the OL.
We are overpaying at Safety more than QB and have let the DL fall in talent. KC revamped their
OL in 1 season and we're still trying to get it together after 10. Packers added a C and LG to upgrade via the draft.
The original plan has been abandoned for quick fixes under the misguided impression that we are
close to challenging for a SB.

Based on the most recent developments I gotta disagree some here . For one we have a hell of a young O lineman named Phil Haynes who was a road grader down the stretch . Some of the draft picks look great, some bad just like most teams . There’s no sugar coating Jamaal Adams as it’s a disaster for sure . But I look at our last 6 games , especially the last 2 but a couple others once Penney got rolling and the offense reminded me of late season 2012 when we were hanging 40 plus on everyone . The LOB is never coming back but neither is Ken Norton so maybe it will be more consistent . They actually played pretty well late in the year . As for investing in a line that’s great then they get hurt or you play the Rams or 9ers or Steelers with their elite pass rushers you’re getting hit I don’t care who you have blocking . Just some more than others . Then you look at the fact the team we swept probably should be in the Super Bowl and the team that squeaked past them played competetive games with us in spite of us finishing the first game with a backup and Russell playing poorly in the second as usual vs the Rams . Our schedule is extremely favorable next year . If we get our key free agents back and add a piece or 2 in the draft or FA we have as good a shot as anyone next year .

[govandals]

Hey HawkShack, I haven't posted in a little while. Here is my 2 cents:
Can we win another SB with RW? Absolutely! Russ is still elite. I don't buy into the "you can't win a SB with a QB taking up X% of the cap" argument.

The real question is can we win another SB with PC? No, we can't. Pete is responsible for the poor roster construction, bad trades, misuse of FA dollars, bad drafting, poor in game clock management, running a 1970's defense in today's game. It's really sad.

RW's camp has been quiet so far this offseason, IIRC, he usually has a post season presser by now. I think Russ is looking at the situations in NY, Denver and Las Vegas, all 3 have hired offensive minded coaches. I believe he asks for a trade a few weeks after the SB.

[NorthHawk]

Hey HawkShack, I haven't posted in a little while. Here is my 2 cents:
Can we win another SB with RW? Absolutely! Russ is still elite. I don't buy into the "you can't win a SB with a QB taking up X% of the cap" argument.

The real question is can we win another SB with PC? No, we can't. Pete is responsible for the poor roster construction, bad trades, misuse of FA dollars, bad drafting, poor in game clock management, running a 1970's defense in today's game. It's really sad.

RW's camp has been quiet so far this offseason, IIRC, he usually has a post season presser by now. I think Russ is looking at the situations in NY, Denver and Las Vegas, all 3 have hired offensive minded coaches. I believe he asks for a trade a few weeks after the SB.

I think it's got to the point that quality FA's don't want to come here anymore. We are no longer building towards a big championship run but just trying to keep pace with other teams.
When was the last time we got a quality FA? The two players we traded for along the DL went elsewhere and most of the other FA's have been career situational players or backups.

[Hawktawk]

Hey HawkShack, I haven't posted in a little while. Here is my 2 cents:
Can we win another SB with RW? Absolutely! Russ is still elite. I don't buy into the "you can't win a SB with a QB taking up X% of the cap" argument.

The real question is can we win another SB with PC? No, we can't. Pete is responsible for the poor roster construction, bad trades, misuse of FA dollars, bad drafting, poor in game clock management, running a 1970's defense in today's game. It's really sad.

RW's camp has been quiet so far this offseason, IIRC, he usually has a post season presser by now. I think Russ is looking at the situations in NY, Denver and Las Vegas, all 3 have hired offensive minded coaches. I believe he asks for a trade a few weeks after the SB.

Russ has something like 5 million due within days. I know Jodi isn’t hurting for money but my guess is if something is going to happen it will happen pretty soon or he’s almost certainly going to be back for 22 . All reporting I’ve heard is that Seattle has no plan to try to trade him and will have to be “forced “ . Beyond that I was listening to Brock and Salk this morning . They were breaking down some of the hypothetical deals . They observed the market for Russ may not be as high as he or his die hard fans thought .

He would be desirable for sure but 3 first rounders or star players ? Doesn’t appear like it . His season and his complicated personality may have dimmed his star a bit . The last 2 last season looked really nice for him as well as the team . I don’t see the cupboard as bare as I did a few months ago . If Russ returns in good form and Penney can be resigned we could win it all next season . It’s gonna be a down year in the conference.

[RiverDog]

Russ has something like 5 million due within days. I know Jodi isn’t hurting for money but my guess is if something is going to happen it will happen pretty soon or he’s almost certainly going to be back for 22 . All reporting I’ve heard is that Seattle has no plan to try to trade him and will have to be “forced “ . Beyond that I was listening to Brock and Salk this morning . They were breaking down some of the hypothetical deals . They observed the market for Russ may not be as high as he or his die hard fans thought .

He would be desirable for sure but 3 first rounders or star players ? Doesn’t appear like it . His season and his complicated personality may have dimmed his star a bit . The last 2 last season looked really nice for him as well as the team . I don’t see the cupboard as bare as I did a few months ago . If Russ returns in good form and Penney can be resigned we could win it all next season . It’s gonna be a down year in the conference.

Ian Rapoport said today on the Pat McAfee Show that Wilson "wants to know his options" and will "look around and see" what potential landing spots are available to him. He also stressed that the Seahawks are unsure of what to do with their Super Bowl-winning quarterback, who is under contract through the 2023 season.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ru ... ar-AATueAt

As far as our prospects for next season, I'm still keeping my powder dry until at least the draft. This year was one of the craziest in recent memory and more difficult to predict than usual. I make a fool out of myself often enough without making an embarrassing prediction 8 months before the start of the season.

[Aseahawkfan]

If Aaron Rodgers leaves to Denver or Tennessee, Russell Wilson is the best QB in the NFC. NFC is wide open next season. No Tom Brady. Sean Payton retired. Rams dealing with cap issues. Jimmy G not a franchise QB. Kyler Murray fell back to earth.

We need a really good draft and free agency period and Seattle is right back in it.

[govandals]

Russ has something like 5 million due within days. I know Jodi isn’t hurting for money but my guess is if something is going to happen it will happen pretty soon or he’s almost certainly going to be back for 22 . All reporting I’ve heard is that Seattle has no plan to try to trade him and will have to be “forced “ . Beyond that I was listening to Brock and Salk this morning . They were breaking down some of the hypothetical deals . They observed the market for Russ may not be as high as he or his die hard fans thought .

He would be desirable for sure but 3 first rounders or star players ? Doesn’t appear like it . His season and his complicated personality may have dimmed his star a bit . The last 2 last season looked really nice for him as well as the team . I don’t see the cupboard as bare as I did a few months ago . If Russ returns in good form and Penney can be resigned we could win it all next season . It’s gonna be a down year in the conference.

The $5 million roster bonus is due March 21st. I really like Brock Huard, but he should know a lack of top tier QB's in this draft means the veteran QB market will be higher than normal. I do think RW's trade value is less than last year, not due to the injured finger or his play, but because he is one year older with one less year of team control. I don't think 3 firsts is unreasonable, especially if they are in the back half of the round.

It's gonna take a lot more than a healthy Russ and a re-signed Penny to win it all. That being said, they have opportunity to get better quickly. This is a great draft at DT and DE, 2 of the bigger needs on the roster. Although they have many FA's, they have the 7th most cap space this offseason, with ways to create more. A few key signings and a quality draft means they could be back in realistic contention soon

[NorthHawk]

It seems to me that there should be some really good talent at or around 42. Some might seem to be a risk,
but there should be some players at positions we really need to upgrade.
The problem is we haven’t addressed glaring needs very often the last 7 or so drafts so expecting it to
change might be a bit of a stretch.

[Hawktawk]

If Aaron Rodgers leaves to Denver or Tennessee, Russell Wilson is the best QB in the NFC. NFC is wide open next season. No Tom Brady. Sean Payton retired. Rams dealing with cap issues. Jimmy G not a franchise QB. Kyler Murray fell back to earth.

We need a really good draft and free agency period and Seattle is right back in it.

We need to walk back our contributors such as Diggs and other contributing FAs , be lucky health wise and have Russ play like good Russ and we have as good a shot as anyone . Plenty of good players . It’s gonna be a down conference . It already is as Cincy will prove a week from now .

[RiverDog]

If Aaron Rodgers leaves to Denver or Tennessee, Russell Wilson is the best QB in the NFC. NFC is wide open next season. No Tom Brady. Sean Payton retired. Rams dealing with cap issues. Jimmy G not a franchise QB. Kyler Murray fell back to earth.

We need a really good draft and free agency period and Seattle is right back in it.

We need to walk back our contributors such as Diggs and other contributing FAs , be lucky health wise and have Russ play like good Russ and we have as good a shot as anyone . Plenty of good players . It’s gonna be a down conference . It already is as Cincy will prove a week from now .

We definitely need the "good Russell" if we have any hope at all of improving our fortunes. We still have a lot of question marks to be answered, not the least of which is Diggs, who will be coming off a career threatening injury, is a free agent and is wanting big money.

The entire league was topsy turvy, including the AFC. The Chiefs were 3-4 at one point of the season. The Titans were one of the worst teams to have ever secured HFA and were one and done in the playoffs. The Bills were just 7-6 at one point and looked like they had conceded the division to the Pats, who ended up losing 3 of their last 4 and were one and done in the playoffs, getting body slammed by the Bills. And, of course, no one figured on the Bengals going to the SB.

[Hawktawk]

I picked Titans over Bengals but gave Burrows props pre game . Since that I’ve been all aboard . I was amazed by Burrows composure being sacked 9 times in a brilliant Titans effort . But Cincy out Defensed the Titans as well as as the chiefs . I heard Burrows being interviewed and asked how he remains effective taking so many hits and sacks . I’ll paraphrase somewhat but he said “ if you’re waiting for that receiver to come open and you have to hold the ball you’re going to get hit , sometimes get sacked . it’s your job to get hit throwing the ball. And you can’t make an angry expression or complain , can’t let your body language show if it hurt . That’s your job .

Not surprising his teammates love him . GO BENGALS.

[RiverDog]

Richard Sherman spoke out about this topic. Here's what he had to say:

While speaking on The Richard Sherman Podcast, the three-time All-Pro cornerback first claimed that ‘letting Russ cook’ did not win Seattle’s first Super Bowl and then seriously doubted the team’s chances of returning to the Super Bowl with a pass-first offense.

“The identify of a Pete Carroll and a championship team, as it always has been, is run the ball, limit the turnovers, play solid defense,” Sherman said. “The best defense is a good run game — you run the clock, you spend less time on the field, you get stops when you need them. That’s what they [Seahawks] were doing at the end [of the season]. That’s what their formula was, that’s how they won those games at the end, that’s how they beat Arizona.

“People are like ‘Let Russ cook, let Russ cook.’ You did not win a Super Bowl letting Russ cook. You have not been anywhere close to a Super Bowl letting Russ cook. You will not be close to a Super Bowl if you let him throw it 30-40 times a game.”

Sherman’s reasoning for why he doesn’t think 30-40 passes will win in Seattle had more to do with the team’s defense than Wilson. Sherman said that passing that often stops the clock, hurts a team’s time of possession and ultimately leads to a more tired defense that won’t be able to get key stops to win games.

For some, Sherman’s offensive philosophy will be too ‘old school,’ but a good running game has never really gone out of style. That was definitely true for Seattle this past season.

The Seahawks averaged 176 rushing yards in their last six games of the 2021 regular season. Former first-round pick Rashaad Penny shined during that stretch, rushing for 706 yards and six touchdowns to lead the Seahawks to a 4-2 finish. In the first 11 games of the season, the Seahawks rushed for 92.5 yards per contest while posting a 3-8 record.

So Sherman has a point. His claim that a pass-first offense didn’t take the Seahawks to either of their two Super Bowls last decade also rings true.

In six playoff games following the 2013 and 2014 seasons, Wilson never attempted more than 29 passes in a game. The Seahawks went 5-1 in those playoff contests. During the 2013 regular season, Wilson averaged about 25.4 passes per game. In 2014, he had roughly 28.3 pass attempts per contest.

In his playoff career, the Seahawks are 7-3 when Wilson attempts under 30 passes. When Wilson has 30 or more attempts in a playoff game, the Seahawks are 2-4.

While Wilson’s playoff record with 30 or more passes versus when he attempts fewer than that is revealing, it can also be misleading. Teams often pass more because of an inability to run the ball. The fear of falling behind even further in a game is another factor that contributes to more passing. In three of the six games where Wilson attempted at least 30 passes this past season, the Seahawks were losing entering the fourth quarter.

When Sherman played for the Seahawks from 2011-17, it was easy to not throw a lot of passes. Seattle finished among the NFL’s top 10 scoring defenses six times during that span. From 2012-15, the Seahawks allowed the fewest points per game in the league every season. That elite defense allowed the Seahawks to remain patient on offense. Then the run-first offense paid off, as the Legion of Boom was well rested in the fourth quarter of games.

In 2021, Seattle was ranked 11th in points allowed.

Maybe the debate for the Seahawks should be less about how much the team should ‘let Russ cook’ and more about how the team can get back to complimentary football in order to not rely entirely on the Pro Bowl quarterback.

https://heavy.com/sports/seattle-seahaw ... -seahawks/

[NorthHawk]

And it’s a mystery as to why the FO would pass by great RBs if the run game is so important.
That along with not addressing needs along the OL is the primary reason for such a poor
Offense for the most part. So if the run game isn’t working then Russ has to step up and we
saw that the first 5 games or thereabouts in 2020 along with a Defense that couldn’t stop
anything during that period.

[EmeraldBullet]

TOP was a huge problem for us and led to some loses we should have won. I specifically remember seeing defenders with their hands on their thighs at the end of the bears and steelers loses

[EmeraldBullet]

TOP was a huge problem for us and led to some loses we should have won. I specifically remember seeing defenders with their hands on their thighs at the end of the bears and steelers loses

Running the ball is great is great when you can do it. But if youre only averaging 2.5 yards a carry it can lead to some quick 3 and outs. I think we need to have solid RBs that arent prone to injury to make it happen. Chris carson killed us. Penny looked amazing at the end of the season but does anyone trust him to do that for a full season? We need a real feature back for that type of strategy to work. I dont think carson can be effective anymore with his style of play and stay healthy. We seem to get 3 or so good years out of physical backs and run them into the ground health wise. I think the philosophy is good, but you need the correct pieces to make it happen.

[govandals]

[/quote]
I think the philosophy is good, but you need the correct pieces to make it happen.[/quote]

Yup,

Currently Pete's roster has FA's at starting LT, RT, C, RB2. RB1 is coming off neck surgery and who knows about his availability this year. Great job managing the roster!

Still irks me that he passed on Nick Chubb and Jonathaon Taylor.

[Hawktawk]

It’s a small sample but Penney had more yards after contact the last 6 weeks than MVP dark horse Taylor had total . Who knows if we can trust it a whole season . Chubb has missed time too. It’s called running back position . If he does stay healthy and someone doesn’t poach him the offense will be dominant in terms of moving the chains and scoring . That’s a balanced yet explosive offense . I think Russ wasn’t much over 250 yards in the last 2 blowouts but threw 7 TD passes . He threw 12 of his 25 TDs after Penney was finally given the starting job. If our offense is Russ and 3 ypc on the ground nit so much . Couple it with his terrible third down completion % putting it all on him doesn’t work .

[tarlhawk]

I think the philosophy is good, but you need the correct pieces to make it happen.[/quote]

Yup,

Currently Pete's roster has FA's at starting LT, RT, C, RB2. RB1 is coming off neck surgery and who knows about his availability this year. Great job managing the roster!

Still irks me that he passed on Nick Chubb and Jonathaon Taylor.[/quote]

Its hindsight to say our team "passed" on Chubb and Taylor. We chose our blossoming Linebacker Jordyn Brooks when Taylor was available...but was our "need" at that time a running back? Chubb came along when Chris Carson had made a very good impression as a rookie. Penney was a different type of back...not punishing but explosive potential and wasn't "abused" in College with excessive use. He also offered the element of being an impact Kick/Punt returner...something we have lacked since Percy Harmon/Tyler Lockett thrilled on Special Teams. Injuries and the lack of confidence that sometimes accompanies a serious suffered injury pretty much soaked up his early career.

[govandals]

It’s a small sample but Penney had more yards after contact the last 6 weeks than MVP dark horse Taylor had total . Who knows if we can trust it a whole season . Chubb has missed time too. It’s called running back position . If he does stay healthy and someone doesn’t poach him the offense will be dominant in terms of moving the chains and scoring . That’s a balanced yet explosive offense . I think Russ wasn’t much over 250 yards in the last 2 blowouts but threw 7 TD passes . He threw 12 of his 25 TDs after Penney was finally given the starting job. If our offense is Russ and 3 ypc on the ground nit so much . Couple it with his terrible third down completion % putting it all on him doesn’t work .

I really like Rashaad Penny, he is really talented. I hope he can stay healthy. I agree the offense was great at the end of the year, but can you trust him to play 17 games next year, though? Penny has missed 28 games in the last 4 years. Chubb has missed 7. Your best ability is your availability.

[govandals]

Its hindsight to say our team "passed" on Chubb and Taylor. We chose our blossoming Linebacker Jordyn Brooks when Taylor was available...but was our "need" at that time a running back? Chubb came along when Chris Carson had made a very good impression as a rookie. Penney was a different type of back...not punishing but explosive potential and wasn't "abused" in College with excessive use. He also offered the element of being an impact Kick/Punt returner...something we have lacked since Percy Harmon/Tyler Lockett thrilled on Special Teams. Injuries and the lack of confidence that sometimes accompanies a serious suffered injury pretty much soaked up his early career.

I chose both Chubb and Taylor as my first picks in Bob's 3 deep mock drafts. No hindsight from me. I thought at time Pete should select these guys.

Carson may have made a good impression as a rookie, but he played in only 4 games and rushed for about 250 yards. Chubb was a monster in college against SEC defenses. Chubb averaged 16 carries a game his last 2 years in college, I don't call that abused with excessive use. He shared time with Sony Michel. Chubb was 2 years and 28 games removed from his broken leg, so i don't see that as an issue.

When Taylor was drafted, Penny was coming off a knee injury and Carson a hip injury. Both finished the previous year on IR. So, yeah, RB was a need. They drafted DJ Dallas in the 4th round that year.

[TriCitySam]

9/17; 2 picks....hmm

[RiverDog]

I really like Rashaad Penny, he is really talented. I hope he can stay healthy. I agree the offense was great at the end of the year, but can you trust him to play 17 games next year, though? Penny has missed 28 games in the last 4 years. Chubb has missed 7. Your best ability is your availability.

The problem is that you can't use a player's college past to predict their durability. Penny didn't miss a game in three years at SDSU.

That's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to burn a high draft pick on a running back, that the position is so subject to injury. Running backs tend to have shorter careers than other positions. The other problem is that there aren't many that are 3 down backs, so you don't get as much bang for the buck. Penny is a good example. He's not a good blocker and isn't a good 3rd down option.

[Hawktawk]

The problem is that you can't use a player's college past to predict their durability. Penny didn't miss a game in three years at SDSU.

That's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to burn a high draft pick on a running back, that the position is so subject to injury. Running backs tend to have shorter careers than other positions. The other problem is that there aren't many that are 3 down backs, so you don't get as much bang for the buck. Penny is a good example. He's not a good blocker and isn't a good 3rd down option.

Penney stoned a couple guys in pass protection that I saw . Stuffed them .He wouldn’t be starting if he couldn’t block . And he’s great on third down , great hands , great speed , former all star returner . He would be great on a delay draw on third and 5 now and then too. Not sure what you are seeing . Superstar potential .

[govandals]

That's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to burn a high draft pick on a running back, that the position is so subject to injury. Running backs tend to have shorter careers than other positions. The other problem is that there aren't many that are 3 down backs, so you don't get as much bang for the buck. Penny is a good example. He's not a good blocker and isn't a good 3rd down option.

I agree with being reluctant on RB's high in the draft, unless they are really special. I saw Chubb (and J.Taylor) as special. RB's in general are a bit de-valued in todays modern NFL. There just is not as many 3 down, workhorse backs today and I don't see any in this years draft. I don't think we'll see any RB's taken in 1st round this year, either.

A bit off topic: In the last few years, I hear the media use the term "bellcow" RB. What in the heck is a bellcow? and how does that relate to RB's?

[tarlhawk]

A bit off topic: In the last few years, I hear the media use the term "bellcow" RB. What in the heck is a bellcow? and how does that relate to RB's?

Found this:

by Dennis Michelsen
July 3, 2019

Back in the old days of fantasy football drafts, if you didn’t take running backs with your first two picks, you were probably doomed. The number of bell cow running backs were much higher and guys often held their value better. In today’s NFL, we see less of the dominant back and more of the running back by committee approach.

The number of rushing attempts per game has not dropped much over the past 12 years, averaging around 26-27 attempts per game, per team. The number of targeted passes to running backs has not changed significantly over the past eight years. It is all about coaching philosophy that has changed our definition of bell cow backs over the years. We need more cow bell!



Old Way vs New Way

Turn back the clock to 2010, and we saw an average of 10 running backs with 300 or more touches per season. If you break down the statistics even more, you see that number would have been even higher if a few more backs stayed healthy. While game situations affect the number of touches significantly from game to game, the number of running backs with 20-25 touches per game has dropped over the past 10 years. The shelf life of a starter hasn’t lengthened, with fewer touches, but more and more coaches believe in splitting the touches more.



Redefining the Bell Cow

20-25 carries a game used to be the accepted definition of “bell cow.” Since most teams averaged around 25 rushing attempts per game, this meant your bell cow was getting over 90% of the carries. In today’s NFL, and especially in today’s PPR world of fantasy football, my definition of bell cow has changed to look at total touches versus carries, since I don’t care how a running back gets the ball, I just want the guy who gets it often.

[tarlhawk]

From a post concerning the term "bell cow" :

Jackal King

Posted December 14, 2008

You train the cows to come to the sound of a ringing bell....and then you attach a bell to your best cow. The herd then follows the bell cow, allowing the herders to handle large numbers with just several cowboys.

So...the pace of the bell cow determines the pace of the herd.

[Hawktawk]

The argument with Penney is not whether he was a bust . He was an injury induced bust . Still his CAREER ypc is among the best in team history . This year over 6 ypc even counting some slow starts early in the season . He looked dynamic with a gear Carson doesn’t have right up to the explosive reception and run he was injured on . My question coming back from a really bad injury was the speed and moves that make him special would be gone . I thought of Rawls who looked excellent prior to his injury and a possible replacement for Beast . He came back slower and seemed like a shell of himself . Since PC figured out by attrition that Penney is in fact a bell cow home run hitter that needs carries to get going like any great back . I’ve watched him basically a half season getting better and better . Saw him get hit in the legs . He got gator rolled by Budda Baker which I coujd see hurt but he popped right up and hung another 100 on them running over Budda in the process also beating him in a foot race . Our offensive production and Russell’s play in the last 3 weeks reminded me of late 2012 and it’s no coincidence as play action is Russels most devastating weapon . I think Penney has to be part of the equation next year .

[NorthHawk]

The argument with Penney is not whether he was a bust . He was an injury induced bust . Still his CAREER ypc is among the best in team history . This year over 6 ypc even counting some slow starts early in the season . He looked dynamic with a gear Carson doesn’t have right up to the explosive reception and run he was injured on . My question coming back from a really bad injury was the speed and moves that make him special would be gone . I thought of Rawls who looked excellent prior to his injury and a possible replacement for Beast . He came back slower and seemed like a shell of himself . Since PC figured out by attrition that Penney is in fact a bell cow home run hitter that needs carries to get going like any great back . I’ve watched him basically a half season getting better and better . Saw him get hit in the legs . He got gator rolled by Budda Baker which I coujd see hurt but he popped right up and hung another 100 on them running over Budda in the process also beating him in a foot race . Our offensive production and Russell’s play in the last 3 weeks reminded me of late 2012 and it’s no coincidence as play action is Russels most devastating weapon . I think Penney has to be part of the equation next year .

Injury history is a big determinant in evaluation. Prosise was a great example. He had a lot of promise, but couldn't get on the field.
Now after about 6 games it would be folly to think he could last a season. We should have known about Carson as he's never lasted a full season even in College.
His run style is great to watch but it isn't sustainable. That's why many of us were expecting a high pick on a bell cow RB like Chubb or Taylor. Splitting the duties
before Carson would get hurt may have given us a much better chance to win.

[Hawktawk]

Why can’t we count on Penney as much as anyone else which is the same as anyone playing the position . Procise isn’t a terrible example other than being far more injury prone than Penney . Penney was never hurt . Then badly hurt . Then rehabbing , getting his legs back , trusting the repair . I remember a guy named Curt Warner who was amazing as a rookie then blew his knee without contact the first game of his second year . It can happen . You gamble based on what the player has the proven potential to provide for your team. You sign that guy and cross your fingers on injury like everyone else in the league. I’ve rarely seen a back with that size , speed , power , vision and patience in my 45 years as a fan . Game changer .

[RiverDog]

The argument with Penney is not whether he was a bust . He was an injury induced bust . Still his CAREER ypc is among the best in team history.

Man, talk about cherry picking! What's next, that Geno Smith is the most accurate QB in Seahawk's history because he has the highest completion percentage of any Seahawk QB?

You're right, Penny has 5.6 YPC which is very, very good, but he only has 280 attempts. Compare that to Shaun Alexander's 9429 carries.