Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:16 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Hawktalk, if I'm ever accused of something that I didn't do, I would not want you on my jury.

I neither believe nor disbelieve Flores' claim. It's entirely possible that this is nothing more than sour grapes, a disgruntled employee looking for a reason to rationalize his failures. It's happened before. It's also possible that race did have something to do with his termination, or at the very least, that the Rooney Rule was violated, that teams simply went through the motions in order to satisfy it. It might even be likely that there was a bribe offered to lose football games as there was a motive for an owner to do so.

The fact that 70% of the league is black is irrelevant to the hiring of NFL head coaches. Playing experience in the NFL is not a requirement to be a coach in the league, neither in writing nor in practice. There are a number of head coaches that have never played in the NFL, the most noteworthy being Bill Belichick. Pete Carroll never played in the NFL, nor did Mike McCarthy, Sean McVay, Sean McDermott, or Kyle Shanahan. And going back into history, Vince Lombardi never played in the NFL. The pool of head coaching candidates is not limited to current or former players, so the percentage of black players is not relevant. That doesn't mean that the topic itself is irrelevant or that it's not a worthy objective to achieve more diversity in the head coaching ranks, only that it is not evidence that can be used at a trial.

I've been a party to very similar discussions at my former place of work, why when our work force is well over 50% minorities that less than 10% were in management. It's not an unusual situation unique to the NFL.

If Flores could get a fair number of assistant coaches that have been passed over for head coaching position, guys like Eric Bienemy, Byron Leftwich, etc, to sign on to a class action suit, then they might have a better chance of succeeding in court if they could establish a pattern of passing over qualified minority coaches. But it's incredibly difficult to prove on an individual basis that you were discriminated against.


When did Flores fail ? He lasted 15 years in New England. Then he won 5 games with a brutal team and an owner who was trying to bribe him to lose games . And yes I believe him . Then he wins 10 games with Ryan Fitzpatrick , turns around and wins 9 with injury issues to both QBs and Tua finishing the year on a broken hand . Yeah I believe him . I’ve decided I don’t want you on a jury of someone who committed a crime . There is being open minded then there’s being closed minded to a reality . Which in this case is a ridiculous lack of Black coaches and now credible accounts of discriminatory behavior and game fixing .

I think it’s fantastic to think a guy would open himself up to the full legal weight of the NFL and 31 billionaires because he’s disgruntled . Doesn’t explain the other coach joining either . And again , Flores is seeking INJUNCTIVE relief, not money . He said this morning he’d love to coach but if change happens and he’s done it’s worth it . I trust him over some old 80 year old billionaire who brought him in to lose games and he won too many .
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:08 pm

Hawktawk wrote:When did Flores fail ? He lasted 15 years in New England. Then he won 5 games with a brutal team and an owner who was trying to bribe him to lose games . And yes I believe him . Then he wins 10 games with Ryan Fitzpatrick , turns around and wins 9 with injury issues to both QBs and Tua finishing the year on a broken hand . Yeah I believe him . I’ve decided I don’t want you on a jury of someone who committed a crime . There is being open minded then there’s being closed minded to a reality . Which in this case is a ridiculous lack of Black coaches and now credible accounts of discriminatory behavior and game fixing .

I think it’s fantastic to think a guy would open himself up to the full legal weight of the NFL and 31 billionaires because he’s disgruntled . Doesn’t explain the other coach joining either . And again , Flores is seeking INJUNCTIVE relief, not money . He said this morning he’d love to coach but if change happens and he’s done it’s worth it . I trust him over some old 80 year old billionaire who brought him in to lose games and he won too many .


None of what you mentioned constitutes race discrimination. Your belief in his story is entirely emotional, that you have a personal liking for Flores and his cause. Your belief in him is not based on any evidence. Additionally, you have no evidence that the 80 year old billionaire owner actually tried to bribe his coach to lose games, yet you believe his accuser's story and not his emphatic denial. You ignore the fact that this billionaire owner was the very same individual that hired the first black head coach in his franchise's history, but according to you, in less than two years he's turned into some sort of Confederate flag waving bigot.

I am not unsympathetic to discrimination. I have some very good reasons to believe that I was discriminated against by my former employer on account of my age. I was told by several managers of whom I'd worked for that the company was not willing to promote certain people to certain positions due to their age. The topic was openly discussed in their staff meetings. They wanted to move younger people up the ladder as they were afraid that if they didn't, they'd quit. They knew that I did not have that kind of leverage as I had so many years in with the company, it was too late for me to start a new career, that my wife had a good job at her place of employment, that I had a deep set of roots in the community, and so on, and was very unlikely to quit if I did not receive a promotion. Additionally, they wanted to promote younger candidates as they hadn't even reached the back 9 of their careers, and as such, had the potential to be a company VP. They did not have enough younger managers in "feeder" positions. I was on the 16th hole of my career with zero chance of progressing into a 6-figure position.

I'm sure that everyone in here has a similar story, or at the very least, can sympathize with being discriminated against due to some factor in our background that we have no control over. It's a very disturbing, very frustrating feeling, especially when you can't prove it or when proving it would leave you worse off even if you won your case. You're stuck between a rock and a hard spot. It sucks, but then again, life isn't fair, either.

And yes, if you're a DA that's prosecuting someone that committed a crime, you probably don't want me on the jury, at least not compared to someone like yourself. I have this odd thing about being innocent unless proven guilty.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:05 pm

The Giants have issued a lengthy statement regarding the Belichick text that had appeared to suggest that they knew who they were going to hire before they interviewed Flores:

February 3, 2022

Brian Flores has raised serious issues in the filing of his complaint. The specific claims against the Giants and Mr. Flores' allegations about the legitimacy of his candidacy for our head coach position are disturbing and simply false.

After we interviewed six exceptional and diverse candidates, the decision on who we would hire as head coach was made on the evening of January 28, one day after Mr. Flores spent an entire day in our offices going through his second interview for the position, meeting with ownership and other staff members, and receiving a tour of our facility. (See the itinerary below). There is additional concrete and objective evidence to substantiate we did not make our decision until the evening of the 28th.

The allegation that the Giants' decision had been made prior to Friday evening, January 28, is false. And to base that allegation on a text exchange with Bill Belichick in which he ultimately states that he "thinks" Brian Daboll would get the job is irresponsible. The text exchange occurred the day before Coach Daboll's in-person interview even took place. Giants' ownership would never hire a head coach based only on a 20-minute zoom interview, which is all that Mr. Daboll had at that point.

In addition, Mr. Belichick does not speak for and has no affiliation with the Giants. Mr. Belichick's text exchange provides no insight into what actually transpired during our head coaching search.

It has been well documented how much research and due diligence we did on Mr. Flores as it related to his candidacy. John Mara called Mr. Flores two days after he was dismissed in Miami. Mr. Mara expressed to Mr. Flores in that January 12 call that once we had our new general manager in place, we would begin the process of hiring our head coach and we wanted to meet with Mr. Flores because we considered him a serious candidate for the position. Mr. Mara and Mr. Flores then had their first formal conversation in a 25-30 minute zoom call on January 18 (at Mr. Flores' request) to further discuss his candidacy.

In between those initial conversations and Mr. Flores' in-person interview on January 27, there were several other communications between Mr. Flores and members of our organization. This included a dinner with our newly hired general manager, Joe Schoen, the night before Mr. Flores's in-person interview. The consensus from within the Giants organization after this dinner remained that Mr. Flores was an outstanding candidate, and we looked forward to sitting down with him in person the next day.

Our hiring process and, most certainly, our consideration of Mr. Flores was serious and genuine. We are disappointed to learn that Mr. Flores was under the mistaken impression the job had already been awarded.

In his CBS interview yesterday, Mr. Flores was asked if "clubs have the right to hire the person they think is the best qualified for the job or the person they feel is right for them?" Mr. Flores responded "They do. That's very reasonable to me . . .". That is exactly what we did.

We hired Brian Daboll as our head coach at the conclusion of an open and thorough interview process. No decision was made, and no job offer was extended, until the evening of January 28, a full day after Mr. Flores' in-person interview and day-long visit to the Giants.

Brian Flores Interview Itinerary – Head Football Coach

January 27, 2022

8:45am – arrival at Quest (Joe Schoen)

9:00am – meet w/ John Mara, Chris Mara, Steve Tisch, & Joe Schoen

12:00pm – Lunch / Facility Tour – Tim McDonnell

1:00pm – Pat Hanlon/Jen Escalante/Dion Dargin

1:45pm – Ronnie Barnes/Jessie Armstead

2:30pm – Allison Stangeby/Pete Guelli

3:30pm – Joe Schoen


https://www.giants.com/news/statement-f ... february-3
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:18 pm

And here's John Elway's side of the story:

While I was not planning to respond publicly to the false and defamatory claims by Brian Flores, I could not be silent any longer with my character, integrity and professionalism being attacked,” Elway said in a statement issued on Thursday. “I took Coach Flores very seriously as a candidate for our head coaching position in 2019 and enjoyed our three-and-a-half hour interview with him. Along with the rest of our group, I was prepared, ready and fully engaged during the entire interview as Brian shared his experience and vision for our team. . . . It’s unfortunate and shocking to learn for the first time this week that Brian felt differently about our interview with him.

“For Brian to make an assumption about my appearance and state of mind early that morning was subjective, hurtful and just plain wrong. If I appeared ‘disheveled,’ as he claimed, it was because we had flown in during the middle of the night — immediately following another interview in Denver — and were going on a few hours of sleep to meet the only window provided to us. . . . I interviewed Brian in good faith, giving him the same consideration and opportunity as every other candidate for our head coaching position in 2019.”


https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/sports/ ... m/3534064/

And Dolphins owner Stephen Ross:

“I am a man or honor and integrity and cannot let [the allegations] stand without responding,” Ross said. “I take great personal exception to these malicious attacks, and the truth must be known. His allegations are false, malicious and defamatory. We understand there are media reports stating that the NFL intends to investigate his claims, and we will cooperate fully. I welcome that investigation and I am eager to defend my personal integrity, and the integrity and values of the entire Miami Dolphins organization, from these baseless, unfair and disparaging claims.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... an-flores/

It's interesting to note that both Elway and Ross used the word "defamatory" in their responses, perhaps indicating that they may be contemplating a defamation of character counter suit.

Those parties have now thrown down the gauntlet. This could get really ugly.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby TriCitySam » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:31 pm

From what I’ve heard, there is a witness that overheard the bribe offer. If so, big trouble for Ross. As for Haslam (Cleveland), remember the fraud scheme with Flying J - 17 of his employees went down on fraud charges, He didn’t - but I wouldn’t trust him. The hiring issue is a tough one to prove unless they can get some guys to come forward who were there and witnessed.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:06 pm

TriCitySam wrote:From what I’ve heard, there is a witness that overheard the bribe offer. If so, big trouble for Ross. As for Haslam (Cleveland), remember the fraud scheme with Flying J - 17 of his employees went down on fraud charges, He didn’t - but I wouldn’t trust him. The hiring issue is a tough one to prove unless they can get some guys to come forward who were there and witnessed.


I'm no lawyer, but it would seem to me that there are two separate issues: The supposed bribes to lose games and the discrimination in the hiring/firing process. It's difficult for me to see how they are related.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby obiken » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:34 am

I'm no lawyer, but it would seem to me that there are two separate issues: The supposed bribes to lose games and the discrimination in the hiring/firing process. It's difficult for me to see how they are related.


I think you come off as Anti-Flores River, I am not accusing of it though. The two are related because you ask a black coach to drop games, your asking him to commit career suicide.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:34 am

Apparently they were in the same statement from Flores.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:14 am

I'm no lawyer, but it would seem to me that there are two separate issues: The supposed bribes to lose games and the discrimination in the hiring/firing process. It's difficult for me to see how they are related.


obiken wrote:I think you come off as Anti-Flores River, I am not accusing of it though. The two are related because you ask a black coach to drop games, your asking him to commit career suicide.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Prior to this week, I knew next to nothing about Brian Flores, only that he was a head coach of the Miami Dolphins and that he was black. I am NOT taking sides or saying that Flores is wrong. I'm simply saying that there is no evidence that we have seen, related either to Flores' hiring/firing or the supposed bribe to fix games. At this point, it's Flores' word against Ross's.

I've also said is that what Flores is attempting in his lawsuit is extremely difficult to prove. If all he has is a personal recollection of conversation between himself and Ross, he's very unlikely to win as the burden of proof is on the accuser. And I haven't heard from anyone how a demand that a head coach intentionally throw games, if true, constitutes a racist act. I do not see the linkage between racism and bribery.

It would appear that the Giants have offered some pretty good evidence in the timeline that they offered of the Belichick text messages. Unless you want to believe that a team would offer a head coaching position having had just a 20 minute remote conference with him, then the messages amount to nothing more than one person's unqualified opinion. If the timeline is accurate, it's a good defense.

I also think that Flores could be open to a libel countersuit when he offered an uncomplimentary, subjective opinion of Elway's physical appearance, that Elway looked “disheveled” after a night of “drinking heavily.” I find it hard to believe that any attorney worth his weight would consent to this description being included in a public statement by their client, and Elway's timeline of having had a late meeting with another coaching candidate, along with his presence on a red eye flight from Denver just before the meeting with Flores, is very provable.
Last edited by RiverDog on Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:57 am

TriCitySam wrote:From what I’ve heard, there is a witness that overheard the bribe offer. If so, big trouble for Ross. As for Haslam (Cleveland), remember the fraud scheme with Flying J - 17 of his employees went down on fraud charges, He didn’t - but I wouldn’t trust him. The hiring issue is a tough one to prove unless they can get some guys to come forward who were there and witnessed.


Here's what I think that you are referring to:

Cameron Wolfe of NFL Network reports that “he spoke with a witness who said he heard Dolphins owner Stephen Ross offer former head coach Brian Flores $100,000 for every loss during the 2019 season.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... -per-loss/

If that's true, then yes, Ross would be in deep trouble. Offering to pay individuals to fix professional sporting events is against federal law and is a criminal offense.

But that "witness" is going to have to be a John Dean-type, a person with access and within Ross's inner circle of friends and associates. That is unless Ross is stupid enough to have talked loosely about it around the office.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:49 am

It will take someone with integrity and a love for the game. Maybe someone who is on the edge of retiring with nothing to lose.
But if the person is younger and just getting his career rolling then unfortunately there is too much for him to lose to speak up.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:47 am

NorthHawk wrote:It will take someone with integrity and a love for the game. Maybe someone who is on the edge of retiring with nothing to lose.
But if the person is younger and just getting his career rolling then unfortunately there is too much for him to lose to speak up.


Like who? How many black head coaches or head coaching candidates, current or past, fit that description? Tony Dungy? Lovie Smith? Romeo Crennel? Leslie Frazier? The list is pretty short.

The "too much to lose" problem is inherent in any job discrimination case. It's simply not worth the risk of biting the hand that feeds you. The employer has all the leverage.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:16 am

Here's something else I've stumbled onto:

Shortly after the news of Flores' lawsuit broke, 9NEWS' Mike Klis published some of the coach's remarks ahead of a Broncos-Dolphins game in Week 14 of the 2020 season in which he recounted his interview with Elway and Ellis with fond regard. Denver7's Lionel Bienvenu published Flores' full quote on Twitter.

"I remember it vividly," Flores said on November 11, 2020. "Obviously, John Elway was there, Joe Ellis, [Chief Communications Officer) Patrick Smyth, [V.P. of Football Operations & Compliance] Mark Thewes, and my good buddy [then-V.P. of Player Personnel] Matt Russell. I know him personally from our days in New England in the personnel department. It was just great, for me—doing my own background work and learning more about the Denver Broncos and their history, the Bowlen family and the great history that they have there as an organization. I was excited to interview with them. I thought it went well. It was great to meet the executives there and spend some time with them. I think [former head coach] Vic [Fangio] is a great coach. They got the right coach and the right people in place. It's a talented team, that's for sure. It was a good experience for me personally."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/br ... ar-AATnDBr

That statement could be used as evidence in defense against Flores' lawsuit and used to damage his credibility in front of a judge/jury.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:26 am

Like who? How many black head coaches or head coaching candidates, current or past, fit that description? Tony Dungy? Lovie Smith? Romeo Crennel? Leslie Frazier? The list is pretty short.

The "too much to lose" problem is inherent in any job discrimination case. It's simply not worth the risk of biting the hand that feeds you. The employer has all the leverage.


The person doesn't have to be black or a man. Someone in the office that heard it or heard it being discussed could be a witness.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:06 am

NorthHawk wrote:The person doesn't have to be black or a man. Someone in the office that heard it or heard it being discussed could be a witness.


The odds of Flores winning his case against individual teams named in the lawsuit seems to this casual layman as being pretty remote. The Giants and Broncos have already mounted some pretty convincing evidence that could be used in court to defend themselves, and the Dolphins are the ones that hired him in the first place, which would require Flores to explain how discrimination wasn't present in 2019 when he was hired but suddenly emerged when he was fired in 2022. Flores was never a coordinator, so if anything, he was hired by the Dolphins in spite of having lesser qualifications than other white candidates.

IMO Flores would stand a much better chance of winning his case if he were joined by other black coaches and coaching candidates that could relate similar incidents of racial discrimination that they personally experienced that wouldn't necessarily require hard evidence like emails, text messages, and recorded conversations. He could then argue that there is large scale, systematic racism prevalent around the league that results in workplace discrimination against black head coaching candidates. A good ole boy's network.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby obiken » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:37 am

The odds of Flores winning his case against individual teams named in the lawsuit seems to this casual layman as being pretty remote. The Giants and Broncos have already mounted some pretty convincing evidence that could be used in court to defend themselves, and the Dolphins are the ones that hired him in the first place, which would require Flores to explain how discrimination wasn't present in 2019 when he was hired but suddenly emerged when he was fired in 2022.

IMO Flores would stand a much better chance of winning his case if he were joined by other black coaches and coaching candidates that could relate similar incidents of racial discrimination that they personally experienced that wouldn't necessarily require hard evidence like emails, text messages, and recorded conversations. He could then argue that there is large scale, systematic racism prevalent around the league that results in workplace discrimination against black head coaching candidates. A good ole boy's network.


Emmanuel Acho, who played in the League, is a smart guy, and runs Speak For Yourself on FOX, says he will get it all. He will win his lawsuit, he will coach again, and he will change the Rooney rule which has become a joke. Sorry, I think he gets a good chunk a change from the league because they want this story to die, but that's it! The bigger story is the sucking for a first rounder. The Brown fans should be livid, the case there is solid. Yeah what people say they have, and what ends up on the docket can be vastly different. The NFL let in the flood gates on sports betting and now the Vegas boys are going to want answers on what teams they can count on and those they can't. We're talking too much here, and money in America talks and BS walks. All the crap from the DC investigation, the Gruden drill, and now this, I think the Commish may show some cojones for once and do something.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:47 am

It's always going to be a remote chance short of verifiable evidence, but there must be some merit if in fact the Giants had decided on their HC before giving Flores an
interview. If that's the case at best it's an indictment of the Rooney Rule as per how it's applied and monitored, but when you look at all of the coaches that are hired
and only 1 is black, it makes one wonder. How did Meyer get hired over Leftwich or Bienemy and why aren't they HC's today? As well if you look at the numbers, they
show that Black HC's get fired with better records than White HC's with worse records on a regular basis. As well, how many Black HC's come directly from College to
become HC's in the NFL?
So if the numbers are looked at it shows that there is bias in the system. The question is if it's a conscious bias or not.
Either way things have to change.

On the tanking front, that has a huge possibility of shaking things up even if an NFL investigation finds no merit as it can directly affect gambling revenue. They have
to get to the bottom of these allegations and be open about it if they want people to believe that chance is the only thing that effects games (outside of talent of course).
Any type of doubt or concern that someone behind the scenes is influencing the outcome of games could cause a big hit to revenue - and maybe even viewership.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:50 am

Emmanuel Acho, who played in the League, is a smart guy, and runs Speak For Yourself on FOX, says he will get it all. He will win his lawsuit, he will coach again, and he will change the Rooney rule which has become a joke. Sorry, I think he gets a good chunk a change from the league because they want this story to die, but that's it! The bigger story is the sucking for a first rounder. The Brown fans should be livid, the case there is solid. Yeah what people say they have, and what ends up on the docket can be vastly different. The NFL let in the flood gates on sports betting and now the Vegas boys are going to want answers on what teams they can count on and those they can't. We're talking too much here, and money in America talks and BS walks. All the crap from the DC investigation, the Gruden drill, and now this, I think the Commish may show some cojones for once and do something.


The Commissioner works for the owners, so any rule changes or investigations will probably fall in their favor. However, money is the prime motivating factor, so if revenues from any source
are endangered, the majority of the owners may push to have those suspected of tanking or directing a team to tank removed.
But it's all about the money for the exclusive club of owners.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:55 am

obiken wrote:Emmanuel Acho, who played in the League, is a smart guy, and runs Speak For Yourself on FOX, says he will get it all. He will win his lawsuit, he will coach again, and he will change the Rooney rule which has become a joke. Sorry, I think he gets a good chunk a change from the league because they want this story to die, but that's it! The bigger story is the sucking for a first rounder. The Brown fans should be livid, the case there is solid. Yeah what people say they have, and what ends up on the docket can be vastly different. The NFL let in the flood gates on sports betting and now the Vegas boys are going to want answers on what teams they can count on and those they can't. We're talking too much here, and money in America talks and BS walks. All the crap from the DC investigation, the Gruden drill, and now this, I think the Commish may show some cojones for once and do something.


So what evidence does Mr. Acho have? What is he basing his opinion on?
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Agent 86 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:16 am

Lengthy article from the Athletic but if you want to get a sense from the legal side it's a good read.....



Analysis: Brian Flores faces hurdles in NFL case but may create transparency in NFL hiring

By Alicia Jessop Feb 2, 2022

On the first day of Black History Month, former NFL head coach Brian Flores filed a lawsuit against the league and three teams that could reshape and bring transparency to the the NFL’s hiring practices.

The lawsuit filed in federal court against the NFL, Miami Dolphins, New York Giants and Denver Broncos alleges violations of federal, state and city discrimination laws stemming from Flores’ termination as the head coach of the Dolphins and recruitment as a participant in allegedly sham head coaching interviews by the Giants and Broncos.

Under federal law, Flores alleges that the defendants violated Section 1981 of the Civil Rights Act of 1866. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 was enacted by Congress to ensure U.S. citizenship to formerly enslaved people and protect their ability to enforce contracts. Today, Section 1981 makes it illegal for a non-government party, like the NFL and its teams, to intentionally discriminate against an individual in making and enforcing a contract.

Flores indicated that he will file a claim under a second federal law, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII makes it illegal for an employer to discriminate against employees who are members of protected classes. Race is a protected class under the law. Title VII is broader in its protections than Section 1981 of the Civil Rights Act, as plaintiffs can bring cases alleging both intentional employment discrimination and disparate impact discrimination. Under a disparate impact claim, a plaintiff alleges that an employment practice exists that on its face is neutral, but in practice, more harshly impacts members of a protected class.

One place in which Flores’ lawsuit touches on disparate impact is in alleging that a small minority of all NFL head coaches, quarterback coaches and offensive and defensive coordinators are Black. Yet Flores alleges that a pipeline exists across all of the positions, such as where quarterback coaches are promoted to offensive coordinators and coordinators are promoted to head coaches. If NFL teams have a practice of hiring head coaches from these pipelines, and if Black coaches are disproportionately held out from accessing said pipelines, a Title VII disparate impact claim could be shown.

However, employers possess a critical Title VII defense. Namely, employers can defend against a Title VII disparate impact claim by asserting that even if a facially neutral employment practice falls more harshly on a protected class of people, the employment practice is necessary for business reasons. In this instance, the NFL would likely argue that experience as a quarterback coach is necessary to become an offensive coordinator, or that experience in either coordinator role is necessary to become a head coach. However, that individuals who do not possess these experiences have been hired into the role of head coach may cut into both Flores’ claim and the NFL’s subsequent defense.

To bring a claim under Title VII, one must first file a charge with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Given the statements made in the lawsuit’s pleading, Flores’ attorneys will likely file the charge soon.

Along with the federal claims, Flores’ lawsuit alleges that the New Jersey Law Against Discrimination, New York State Human Rights Law and New York City Human Rights Law were violated. The New Jersey Law Against Discrimination makes it illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in employment settings. The New York State Human Rights Law creates a civil right in the state to obtain employment without discrimination because of race. The New York City Human Rights Law makes racial discrimination in employment settings illegal in the city. It can be assumed that these claims were included in the lawsuit as the NFL is headquartered in New York and the Giants’ location is in New Jersey. If other teams are added to the lawsuit, which is plausible as more plaintiffs join the case, the pleading could be amended to include claims alleging violations of other relevant states’ anti-discrimination and human rights statutes.

In response to the lawsuit, the NFL issued a statement reading, “The NFL and our clubs are deeply committed to ensuring equitable employment practices and continue to make progress in providing equitable opportunities throughout our organizations. Diversity is core to everything we do, and there are few issues on which our clubs and our internal leadership team spend more time. We will defend against these claims, which are without merit.”

Flores’ lawsuit marks the first time that a former NFL head coach has challenged the efficacy of the NFL’s diverse hiring practices under the Rooney Rule in the court system. Enacted in 2003 in response to outcry over the firing of and overall paltry number of Black NFL head coaches, the Rooney Rule initially required NFL teams to interview at least one diverse candidate for every head coaching position. The rule has since been expanded to require teams to interview at least two diverse candidates for head coaching positions, with one interview being in-person. Teams must also abide by the rule for other critical hirings, including the positions of general manager, assistant head coach and both coordinator positions.

As Black head coaching candidates with lengthy résumés, Super Bowl wins and winning records have been passed over for NFL head coaching positions, questions have lingered over whether the Rooney Rule is enough to cure the NFL’s racial hiring and promotion divide. According to Flores’ lawsuit, only 15 Black head coaches have been hired since the Rooney Rule’s adoption to fill approximately 129 head coaching openings. Presently, only one NFL head coach is Black. Some argue that a lawsuit was necessary to drive meaningful change to the NFL’s hiring practices.

“I have said, especially after the last hiring season and in the midst of this one, that it is going to take a lawsuit or legislative action to change things,” said Kenneth Shropshire, CEO of the Global Sport Institute at Arizona State University and an attorney. “I had no optimism about either happening. For the individual who brings the lawsuit, it could potentially be career ending. I also don’t know how you legislate around this.”

Presently, Flores is the only named plaintiff in the case.

Shropshire argues Flores was brave not only in being the first coach to challenge the NFL’s hiring practices in court, but in how he structured the case. The pleading begins with a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., reading, “Morals cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. The law cannot make an employer love me, but it can keep him from refusing to hire me because of the color of my skin.”

Two pages into the complaint, Flores alleges, “In certain critical ways, the NFL is racially segregated and is managed much like a plantation. Its 32 owners — none of whom are Black — profit substantially from the labor of NFL players, 70% of whom are Black. The owners watch the games from atop NFL stadiums in their luxury boxes, while their majority Black workforce put their bodies on the line every Sunday, taking vicious hits and suffering debilitating injuries to their bodies and their brains while the NFL and its owners reap billions of dollars.”

“He could have filed a form complaint,” Shropshire said. “But as you read it, you realize that is not what he did. It really is an, ‘Oh, you don’t think I’m serious? Let me show you how serious I am’ complaint. In the wake of Colin Kaepernick being blackballed for speaking up against an issue that was outside of the league, Flores is saying, ‘I am standing up against issues taking place inside of the league, and despite knowing of the culture of blackballing, I am standing up nonetheless.'”

Flores seeks certification of the case by the court as a class action. He estimates that 40 class members exist, including all Black head coaches, offensive and defensive coordinators, general managers and candidates for those positions during the relevant time period. It is probable that the NFL and other defendants will object to the certification of the case as a class action in an attempt to narrow the scope and possible damages of the case.

Historically, employment law cases can present uphill battles for plaintiffs.

“Flores will face the same hurdles that typical plaintiffs in employment discrimination cases face,” said Tan T. Boston, a visiting assistant professor at the University of Dayton School of Law and an attorney. “He will be required to provide evidence of the disparate treatment that he is alleging with respect to the terms and conditions of employment in the NFL. For example, coaches’ team records are public information, but team records alone are not always decisive in making personnel decisions. Issues regarding past employee discipline, team/workplace culture, and many other factors that are not publicly available may influence personnel decisions. And often times, employees are disadvantaged with respect to having the same level of knowledge or information that employers possess on personnel decisions, due to employee confidentiality policies.

“Gaining access to the relevant hiring files and employment terms of the relevant employees prior to discovery will be a challenge. This challenge will be exacerbated by the large number of team employers that fall under the NFL’s umbrella.”

After a request for comment, the Denver Broncos responded with a statement that read: “The allegations from Brian Flores directed toward the Denver Broncos in today’s court filing are blatantly false.

“Our interview with Mr. Flores regarding our head coaching position began promptly at the scheduled time of 7:30 a.m. on Jan. 5, 2019, in a Providence, R.I., hotel. There were five Broncos executives present for the interview, which lasted approximately three-and-a-half hours—the fully allotted time—and concluded shortly before 11 a.m.

“Pages of detailed notes, analysis and evaluations from our interview demonstrate the depth of our conversation and sincere interest in Mr. Flores as a head coaching candidate.

“Our process was thorough and fair to determine the most qualified candidate for our head coaching position. The Broncos will vigorously defend the integrity and values of our organization—and its employees—from such baseless and disparaging claims.”

The Miami Dolphins responded to a request for comment with this statement: “We are aware of the lawsuit through the media reports that came out this afternoon. We vehemently deny any allegations of racial discrimination and are proud of the diversity and inclusion throughout our organization. The implication that we acted in a manner inconsistent with the integrity of the game is incorrect. We will be withholding further comment on the lawsuit at this time.”

A request for comment from the New York Giants was not immediately returned.

Regardless of the outcome of the case, one positive for Flores and others who alleged they have been discriminated against by the NFL in its hiring process is that if the case moves into the discovery phase, the plaintiffs will likely be able to gain access to important documents highlighting teams’ internal hiring processes. The plaintiffs will also be able to depose key individuals under oath about the league’s diverse hiring practices. Access to such documents and testimony can provide critical insights into what is hindering the advancement of more Black candidates in NFL coaching positions.

Transparency appears to be a critical outcome Flores seeks in the case. The case alleges different standards are applied in hiring, retaining, firing and re-hiring Black and White coaches and that Black coaches are paid less than White counterparts. It also alleges that the Rooney Rule is “not working” because teams are “not doing the interviews in good-faith.” Flores seeks the court to order injunctive relief to increase the influence of Black individuals and objectivity in key hiring and firing decisions. He also seeks transparency in the salaries paid to individuals in key provisions.

The University of Dayton’s Boston believes that regardless of the legal outcome of the case, Flores will find some success in filing the case.

“Where there is smoke, there is often fire,” she said.”The Rooney Rule was implemented by the NFL in response to potential litigation. If teams are being disingenuous in implementing a rule that was specifically designed to avoid litigation, the evidence very well may show that Flores is likely to succeed on the merits. And even if Flores is unsuccessful in meeting his evidentiary burdens, he still will have succeeded in drawing attention to the NFL’s homogeneous hiring practices that have continued for nearly two decades after the Rooney Rule’s implementation. It seems highly improbable that a league whose players are 70% Black is incapable of producing more than one qualified Black head coach in 2022.”
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:00 pm

That was a good read, thanks for posting it.

It would seem to me that the key for Flores would be getting the case into a discovery phase in which they could look for evidence and subpoena witnesses in the hope that they find the smoking gun that they now lack. I don't know enough about the law to know how much evidence it would take for a judge or arbitrator to move a case to a discovery phase.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:50 pm

NorthHawk wrote:It's always going to be a remote chance short of verifiable evidence, but there must be some merit if in fact the Giants had decided on their HC before giving Flores an interview. If that's the case at best it's an indictment of the Rooney Rule as per how it's applied and monitored, but when you look at all of the coaches that are hired and only 1 is black, it makes one wonder. How did Meyer get hired over Leftwich or Bienemy and why aren't they HC's today? As well if you look at the numbers, they show that Black HC's get fired with better records than White HC's with worse records on a regular basis. As well, how many Black HC's come directly from College to become HC's in the NFL? So if the numbers are looked at it shows that there is bias in the system. The question is if it's a conscious bias or not. Either way things have to change.


Did you see the Giants' response to the Belichick text message sent to Flores, that it was sent a day BEFORE they met in person with Daboll? To me, the idea that any NFL team would make an offer to a candidate for their head coaching position having had nothing more than a 20 remote teleconference with them is absurd.

NorthHawk wrote:On the tanking front, that has a huge possibility of shaking things up even if an NFL investigation finds no merit as it can directly affect gambling revenue. They have to get to the bottom of these allegations and be open about it if they want people to believe that chance is the only thing that effects games (outside of talent of course). Any type of doubt or concern that someone behind the scenes is influencing the outcome of games could cause a big hit to revenue - and maybe even viewership.


I agree. Intentionally losing games is a more serious charge and threat to the integrity of the game than the accusations about hiring practices. It's also more believable, as we all know that it goes on to one degree or another as there is an incentive for teams that are eliminated from the playoffs to lose their remaining games. But once again, how does it tie in with Flores' allegation that he was fired because he was black?

IMO one change that they ought to embark on would be to go to an NBA-style draft lottery for non playoff teams to determine their draft slotting. That would take away at least some of the incentive to "suck for Luck" as was the Colts motto a few years back. They don't have to go by W/L records, rather some sort of strength of record rating so that it's impossible for a team to determine their standing before the end of the season. Rank the 18 teams, give the bottom 6 teams 3 balls to put in the basket, the middle 6 teams 2 balls apiece, and the top 6 one ball each. Reverse the selection order after the first round and for all subsequent rounds.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:39 pm

One guy we haven’t heard a peep from is Bill Belichick whose text is what put Flores over the top IMO. Belichick loved both these dudes and if he had any information that would clear this up we would have heard it. The text is self explanatory . The Giants timeline is irrelevant . BB mistakenly told Flores about Dabolls imminent hiring 3 days before his interview . Not debatable .

I don’t for one second think Flores is lying about such fantastic claims . He was the first Dolphins coach to post back to back winning seasons in over 20 years and he got fired and smeared with the angry black man label . I have an emotional
Investment in right against wrong . It’s Chrystal clear .
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:25 pm

Hawktawk wrote:One guy we haven’t heard a peep from is Bill Belichick whose text is what put Flores over the top IMO. Belichick loved both these dudes and if he had any information that would clear this up we would have heard it. The text is self explanatory . The Giants timeline is irrelevant . BB mistakenly told Flores about Dabolls imminent hiring 3 days before his interview . Not debatable .


So in other words, you think that the Giants would hire as their head coach someone that they had not met in person and had only seen in a 20 minute remote teleconference? That's what you have to believe if you accept the Belichick text as accurate.

Hawktawk wrote:I don’t for one second think Flores is lying about such fantastic claims . He was the first Dolphins coach to post back to back winning seasons in over 20 years and he got fired and smeared with the angry black man label . I have an emotional
Investment in right against wrong . It’s Chrystal clear .


So how about John Elway? Are you good with what Flores said about him looking "disheveled", that he had been drinking heavily? Do you have an emotional investment in right vs. wrong in that statement as well?
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:57 pm

Did you see the Giants' response to the Belichick text message sent to Flores, that it was sent a day BEFORE they met in person with Daboll? To me, the idea that any NFL team would make an offer to a candidate for their head coaching position having had nothing more than a 20 remote teleconference with them is absurd.


Owners and GMs select their candidates before interviews all the time. Urban Meyer is an example.
Khan wanted him for a while and finally convinced him to sign. And we have often seen it
happen with other HC hirings where reported favorites get the jobs.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:08 pm

IMO one change that they ought to embark on would be to go to an NBA-style draft lottery for non playoff teams to determine their draft slotting. That would take away at least some of the incentive to "suck for Luck" as was the Colts motto a few years back. They don't have to go by W/L records, rather some sort of strength of record rating so that it's impossible for a team to determine their standing before the end of the season. Rank the 18 teams, give the bottom 6 teams 3 balls to put in the basket, the middle 6 teams 2 balls apiece, and the top 6 one ball each. Reverse the selection order after the first round and for all subsequent rounds.


I think a lottery type system would work but I would limit it to teams only bettering their position by 3 or maybe 4 slots
so a team that is on the edge of the playoffs and is probably much better than the last place team doesn’t get the
first overall pick. I’ve seen it in the NHL where the 9th or 10th team got the 1st or 2nd pick and the team with the
worst record moved down to around 5 or 6. And that begins to lessen the intent of the draft and hurt poorer teams.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:08 am

NorthHawk wrote:Owners and GMs select their candidates before interviews all the time. Urban Meyer is an example. Khan wanted him for a while and finally convinced him to sign. And we have often seen it happen with other HC hirings where reported favorites get the jobs.


The Giants ownership, the people making the decision, had never talked to Daboll. Khan apparently knew Meyer for some time.

Here's some more detail about the Giant's interview process:

There is a good chance the Giants on Tuesday had their next head coach in the building. Whether the in-person interview with Brian Daboll turns into a hiring remains to be seen.

By this weekend, the Giants should have their new head coach in place. But this could drag on a bit longer than that. At this point, it is more likely to be Daboll than anyone else, but things can change.

Daboll, the Bills’ offensive coordinator, was the first of six candidates to come in for a second interview. No introduction was needed between Daboll and Joe Schoen, the Giants’ newly hired general manager, as the two worked together the past four years in Buffalo. Daboll met with co-owners John Mara and Steve Tisch and also Chris Mara, the senior vice president of player personnel. He also met with other members of the front office and toured the team facility.

Patrick Graham, still under contract as the Giants’ defensive coordinator and assistant head coach, gets his chance on Wednesday to convince people he already knows quite well that he deserves a promotion to replace his very good friend, recently fired Joe Judge. Graham, considered a long shot, will also get the opportunity to make an impression on Schoen, someone with whom he has never worked.

On Thursday, Brian Flores arrives. Unlike Daboll, who had a teleconference first interview Friday evening, this is the first time Flores and the Giants will get together. He is a better known commodity than Daboll, with certainly enough success in his three years as the Dolphins head coach (24-25, no playoff appearances) to warrant a serious look. The Giants’ contingent will present a list of questions for Flores to get to the bottom of why he had a falling out in Miami, why he supposedly had a deteriorating relationship with Dolphins GM Chris Grier, why he cycled through offensive coordinators (three in three years) and how he would differentiate himself from the often heavy-handed Bill Belichick coaching methodology he learned in his 11 years working for the Patriots.

The Flores interview will fulfill the Rooney Rule requirement that stipulates a team must meet in person with at least one minority candidate from outside its organization.

The first group of candidates on Schoen’s list were Daboll, Flores, Dan Quinn (Cowboys defensive coordinator and former Falcons head coach), Lou Anarumo (Bengals defensive coordinator), Leslie Frazier (Bills defensive coordinator and former Vikings head coach) and Graham.

Giants taking big chance no matter who they hire as next coach Interestingly and perhaps unexpectedly, after Daboll’s interview on Tuesday, the Giants reconvened and decided to bring Frazier in for an in-person interview. This does not necessarily indicate Daboll did not hit his interview out of the park. A source said Daboll’s meeting with the Giants “went well.’’ Schoen certainly has a relationship with Frazier and perhaps Schoen felt Frazier deserved a chance to meet with Giants’ brass a second time. This will come on Friday.

If none of these candidates — Daboll is the favorite, with Flores in contention — wows the Giants’ brain trust, there is a second group Schoen has put together and additional interviews could take place. It is believed Doug Pederson, the Super Bowl-winning head coach of the Eagles, is on that list. Raheem Morris, the Rams defensive coordinator and former Buccaneers head coach, could also be on that list.


https://nypost.com/2022/01/25/giants-co ... ecure-job/

Note that the Giants talked in person to Leslie Frazier, also black, that their new GM "has a relationship" with Frazier, and could have called him in at any time, which in fact they did, so there was no need to bring in Flores if the only purpose of the interview was to fulfill the Rooney Rule.

The Giants had some very compelling reasons to choose Daboll. He had coached up Josh Allen, taking him from his rookie season where he posted horrible numbers, threw more INT's than TD's, and transformed him into a league MVP candidate. The hope is that he can work the same magic with Daniel Jones, a big, strong arm, athletic quarterback that shares much of the same characteristics as Allen does. It also shows some of the weaknesses in Flores' candidacy, especially the fact that he had gone through 3 OC's in 3 seasons, not a plus when one of the team needs is finding someone to coach up Jones.

So tell me, what do you see that's wrong with that process?
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:09 am

IMO one change that they ought to embark on would be to go to an NBA-style draft lottery for non playoff teams to determine their draft slotting. That would take away at least some of the incentive to "suck for Luck" as was the Colts motto a few years back. They don't have to go by W/L records, rather some sort of strength of record rating so that it's impossible for a team to determine their standing before the end of the season. Rank the 18 teams, give the bottom 6 teams 3 balls to put in the basket, the middle 6 teams 2 balls apiece, and the top 6 one ball each. Reverse the selection order after the first round and for all subsequent rounds.


NorthHawk wrote:I think a lottery type system would work but I would limit it to teams only bettering their position by 3 or maybe 4 slots
so a team that is on the edge of the playoffs and is probably much better than the last place team doesn’t get the
first overall pick. I’ve seen it in the NHL where the 9th or 10th team got the 1st or 2nd pick and the team with the
worst record moved down to around 5 or 6. And that begins to lessen the intent of the draft and hurt poorer teams.


My point is that the league needs to do something to de-incentivize the practice of teams intentionally losing games to enhance their draft slotting. Breaking them into 3-6 team brackets is one idea, as is using some other formula, such as factoring in some type of SOS percentage, rather than just a stand alone W/L record to rank teams.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:22 am

My point is that the league needs to do something to de-incentivize the practice of teams intentionally losing games to enhance their draft slotting. Breaking them into 3-6 team brackets is one idea, as is using some other formula, such as factoring in some type of SOS percentage, rather than just a stand alone W/L record to rank teams.


I was discussing some of the limitations or needs to consider if a lottery type system is implemented. The other concern with Football is the waiver wire and the worst records get first choice of
players put on waivers. In some cases that can be a concern as well.
But the whole system has to change to take away any incentive to lose if we the goal is to limit any perception of tanking.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:16 am

NorthHawk wrote:I was discussing some of the limitations or needs to consider if a lottery type system is implemented. The other concern with Football is the waiver wire and the worst records get first choice of
players put on waivers. In some cases that can be a concern as well.
But the whole system has to change to take away any incentive to lose if we the goal is to limit any perception of tanking.


Agreed, and if anything good is to come out of this scandal, it would be to modify the current system that is too rewarding of failure.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:41 am

RiverDog wrote:
“One guy we haven’t heard a peep from is Bill Belichick whose text is what put Flores over the top IMO. Belichick loved both these dudes and if he had any information that would clear this up we would have heard it. The text is self explanatory . The Giants timeline is irrelevant . BB mistakenly told Flores about Dabolls imminent hiring 3 days before his interview . Not debatable .”



“So in other words, you think that the Giants would hire as their head coach someone that they had not met in person and had only seen in a 20 minute remote teleconference? That's what you have to believe if you accept the Belichick text as accurate.”

“Yeah I believe that . Belichicks text proves it . And it’s not like the candidates are from Mars where there’s a need to have some in depth get to know session . It’s a tight fraternity as proven by the head coach of the pats congratulating the wrong Brian 3 days before his interview proves . It’s what triggered all this . I saw Flores addressing it . He said first there was dissapointment but then “ some anger . Why didn’t I at least have a chance to say what I could do?” Pretty obvious they didn’t want Daboll going elsewhere but had to satisfy the charade known as the Rooney Rule first and Flores was the patsy .”



“So how about John Elway? Are you good with what Flores said about him looking "disheveled", that he had been drinking heavily? Do you have an emotional investment in right vs. wrong in that statement as well?


“I think Elway is a Jackass that can’t develop Qb talent worth a damn . He’s had problems with alcohol including DUI. I can’t judge him for that but he’s got a history like many many FO people . I read Flores reported comments about the meeting in 2020. He mentioned Elway was “ obviously there “ but his enjoyment seemed more with the organization and ownership team. It’s also entirely consistent to say Fangio was a good hire and still feel like the Gm didn’t take you seriously or show up ready to interview .. Elway himself issued a statement saying the comments were false and defamatory . He said “ to the degree we APPEARED disheveled it was because we took a late night flight and had to be at the appointment at 7:30 AM which was the only timeframe available to us “

If Flores is making any of this up he will be sued into poverty . The fact there haven’t already been countersuits already tells me people are afraid of discovery . If I were falsely accused of such things and had millions of dollars I’d destroy the accuser “
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:06 am

RiverDog wrote:So how about John Elway? Are you good with what Flores said about him looking "disheveled", that he had been drinking heavily? Do you have an emotional investment in right vs. wrong in that statement as well?


Hawktawk wrote:“I think Elway is a Jackass that can’t develop Qb talent worth a damn . He’s had problems with alcohol including DUI. I can’t judge him for that but he’s got a history like many many FO people . I read Flores reported comments about the meeting in 2020. He mentioned Elway was “ obviously there “ but his enjoyment seemed more with the organization and ownership team. It’s also entirely consistent to say Fangio was a good hire and still feel like the Gm didn’t take you seriously or show up ready to interview .. Elway himself issued a statement saying the comments were false and defamatory . He said “ to the degree we APPEARED disheveled it was because we took a late night flight and had to be at the appointment at 7:30 AM which was the only timeframe available to us “

If Flores is making any of this up he will be sued into poverty . The fact there haven’t already been countersuits already tells me people are afraid of discovery . If I were falsely accused of such things and had millions of dollars I’d destroy the accuser “


Elway isn't a coach, so it's not his job to develop QB talent, but I get your point. He has to take some of the blame for the Broncos' inability to find/develop a replacement for Peyton Manning.

But that's not the point. The point is that Flores made a subjective, uncomplimentary appraisal of Elway's appearance and the reason for looking "disheleved" and went public with it. Defamation of character lawsuits, like discrimination lawsuits, are extremely difficult to win, which is likely why Flores' lawyer didn't object to the statement.

The problem for Flores is that he's put himself between a rock and a hard spot as his statement from November 2020 about the interview was the complete opposite from the one he made last week. Back then, this is what he had to say about his January 2019 interview with the Broncos:

"It was great, for me—doing my own background work and learning more about the Denver Broncos and their history, the Bowlen family and the great history that they have there as an organization,” the transcript says. “I was excited to interview with them. I thought it went well. It was great to meet the executives there and spend some time with them. I think Vic is a great coach. They got the right coach and the right people in place. It’s a talented team, that’s for sure. It was a good experience for me personally.”

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports ... ew-in-2019

One of his statements about the interview is a lie. Which one is it?
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:33 am

I would tend to think that the 2019 interview statement was a lie.
If you are interviewing for a job, you don't conclude it with comments that put a perspective employer in a bad light.
He was playing the interview game and that's how it's done.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Agent 86 » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:02 am

Hue Jackson dialing it back a bit this morning, saying he wasn't actually offered money to lose like he insinuated earlier this week. But still stands by the claim Haslam wanted to lose and it was discussed. Jackson says he has documents to prove it.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/05/hue-jackson-i-was-never-offered-money-to-lose/
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:07 am

NorthHawk wrote:I would tend to think that the 2019 interview statement was a lie.
If you are interviewing for a job, you don't conclude it with comments that put a perspective employer in a bad light.
He was playing the interview game and that's how it's done.


Flores' interview with the Broncos was in January of 2019. His flowery statement was made in November 2020, nearly two years after his interview. It was not part of some "interview game."

I don't know which statement is a lie and wouldn't want to guess. My point is that one is clearly a lie as they could hardly be more opposite of each other. It's something that is sure to come up in a trial and that Flores is going to have to have a pretty good answer to. It's a clear contradiction and a major blow to his credibility.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:30 am

Agent 86 wrote:Hue Jackson dialing it back a bit this morning, saying he wasn't actually offered money to lose like he insinuated earlier this week. But still stands by the claim Haslam wanted to lose and it was discussed. Jackson says he has documents to prove it.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/05/hue-jackson-i-was-never-offered-money-to-lose/


Interesting. The lack of a monetary offer takes the potential criminal charge off the table, at least for Haslem. If Jackson has genuine documents and not just some notes he took, then the league should have no problem validating his claim about the losing games aspect of the accusation.

Although I think it's plausible to believe that black coaches have more to lose by having a worse W/L record than their white counterparts, I don't see how that makes Haslem's desire to lose games as having a racial component to it.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:43 pm

Flores' interview with the Broncos was in January of 2019. His flowery statement was made in November 2020, nearly two years after his interview. It was not part of some "interview game."


The interview game is always in play as it could influence future employment. It’s why this is such a big risk for Flores.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:40 pm

Flores' interview with the Broncos was in January of 2019. His flowery statement was made in November 2020, nearly two years after his interview. It was not part of some "interview game."


NorthHawk wrote:The interview game is always in play as it could influence future employment. It’s why this is such a big risk for Flores.


If he wasn't genuine, then he really has the ability to blow smoke up arses by heaping on some serious bullchit: "I think Vic is a great coach. They got the right coach and the right people in place" and ...their history, the Bowlen family and the great history that they have there as an organization".

And again, this is in November of 2020 in the middle of the football season. Flores wasn't in the market for a job, nor was Denver looking for a coach. Do you seriously think that he would go that overboard and against the grain of his true feelings when he doesn't have to? If that's what he did, then he's a real schleistmeister.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall if he ever has to testify in front of a defense attorney and explain his hypocrisy.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:50 pm

NorthHawk wrote:I would tend to think that the 2019 interview statement was a lie.
If you are interviewing for a job, you don't conclude it with comments that put a perspective employer in a bad light.
He was playing the interview game and that's how it's done.

I completely agree . Good luck telling an interviewer Elway was smelling like the dumpster outside the lucky break and so hung over he appeared to be retarded :D “ Fangio sucks ! That should have been my job!” besides in that interview all he says of them was “ obviously they were there “ . He focuses his compliments on the Bowlen family and the organization. If he didn’t respect the organization I don’t think he’s the type of guy to interview . His allegation is specifically against Elway and the other CEO. The suit does not mention Fangio .Besides it doesn’t matter . Elway has called it “defamatory “ . So bring it on . What was your itinerary the previous evening ? Did you consume alcohol and if so how much .
Lots of times raging alcoholics have a much different perception of their smell and appearance from someone who didn’t pound a dozen drinks the night before . One more time . If Flores is lying about any of it he’s done . If Elway says it defamed him sue then . I believe Flores . Kinda like all the women Trump was gonna sue or the time Peyton Manning threatened to sue Charlie Sly and Al Jazeera over his HGH use story . Don’t remember that lawsuit either . I do rememember the league said it was “ without merit “ then too .
Last edited by Hawktawk on Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flores files lawsuit alleging racism

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:58 pm

By the way Goodell has weighed in . I don’t have link to direct comments but it sounds like he’s conceding that integrating Blacks into HC roles has been a failure . I see change coming out of this .
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