Are We As Bad As I Think?

[I-5]

Suddenly, though, we have some question marks at both safety positions. Diggs' injury is a potential career ender and who knows if Adams is going to be able to play after damaging the same shoulder twice.

From reports I've read, Diggs' injury was 'good' in one aspect - that there was no ligament or tendon damage, and he sounded pleased how the surgery went to repair his fibula and ankle. Doctors are projecting 4-5 months including rehab, so theoretically he could be ready by the start of next season. Whether he is in Seattle or not, we won't know, but I don't doubt he will be playing as soon as he can. Adams is also set to be ready by training camp.

[Hawktawk]

I’ve heard they expect Adams and also Carson back for TC. Diggs surgery went well . Wyman pointed out he had his leg on backward with a devastating knee injury at Stanford and played 14 years in the league . I’ll be honest RD I don’t care if Adams comes back . I’ve had time to watch almost every game as you have heard too many times . I saw a lot of interesting things good and bad . But Adams ? He’s high energy and hits like a tank , athletic and fast . But he misses tackles on critical plays and absolutely cannot catch a football . He had 2 picks this year on pop ups . But I was watching Pittsburgh again . Late in the game we score on 4 of 5 possessions but the D gives ground . With a little over 2 minutes Ben throws it right at Adams who allows it to bounce off his face mask . My beer goggles had been on in real time but he didn’t get either hand on it . Geno executed the 2 minute with 1 minute left along with the backs who fought their tails off . I don’t believe Geno had an incompletion. Then DK brain cramp that was almost successful had the defender not punched the ball. In the end the night belonged to Watt. But our 17 million safety could have changed that . Salk and Hass agreed it’s the worst trade in the history of the franchise . Jodi and PC meeting today . I bet it comes up

[NorthHawk]

I get the feeling the Defense played better without Adams.

[NorthHawk]

Bottom line is Russ cannot force his way on the field. Doctors have to ok it. Coach has to look at him in practice and ok it. Russ doesn't get to just to go, "I'm back. Screw you all. I do what I want."

I think the Doctor's responsibility is limited to whether the player is healthy enough to play and not in danger of re-injury during the normal course of the game.
Hitting a helmet or hand like Russ did isn't considered a normal activity.
The grip strength or other would be secondary from the Doctors PoV and re-injury from receiving the snap or throwing would be primary.
The rest would be up to the coaches and player.

[tarlhawk]

But our 17 million safety could have changed that . Salk and Hass agreed it’s the worst trade in the history of the franchise . Jodi and PC meeting today . I bet it comes up

We shall see...you give Penny a fair shake but come down hard on Adams. Adams was a 5 million dollar safety this year (cap hit) and a 9 million dollar safety for 2022. He becomes an 18 million dollar cap hit in 2023.

[Hawktawk]

I get the feeling the Defense played better without Adams.

To my eyes watching games over knowing what happened I think you’re right . They were better as a unit without him
.

[Hawktawk]

We shall see...you give Penny a fair shake but come down hard on Adams. Adams was a 5 million dollar safety this year (cap hit) and a 9 million dollar safety for 2022. He becomes an 18 million dollar cap hit in 2023.

What do you even mean I give Penney a break ? I’ve observed that when Penney got heathy and more importantly started getting more than a couple touches he’s made our team much better and tied a record with SA for games over 130 an 2 TDs in 3 straight games . Meanwhile from the day he arrived Adams started getting hurt . All the sacks were great last year but missed tackles and a dropped int in the WC vs the Rams was as responsible as Russ for the ugly loss .

This year ? What a joke . Lots of tackles but not with the game on the line and hands of stone . Second year ended early early with the second season of shoulder problems . As someone whose shoulders are in constant pain I think it’s part of why he can’t catch . People a lot smarter than me are calling it the worst trade and signing in Seahawks history .

[RiverDog]

We shall see...you give Penny a fair shake but come down hard on Adams. Adams was a 5 million dollar safety this year (cap hit) and a 9 million dollar safety for 2022. He becomes an 18 million dollar cap hit in 2023.

What do you even mean I give Penney a break ? I’ve observed that when Penney got heathy and more importantly started getting more than a couple touches he’s made our team much better and tied a record with SA for games over 130 an 2 TDs in 3 straight games . Meanwhile from the day he arrived Adams started getting hurt . All the sacks were great last year but missed tackles and a dropped int in the WC vs the Rams was as responsible as Russ for the ugly loss .

This year ? What a joke . Lots of tackles but not with the game on the line and hands of stone . Second year ended early early with the second season of shoulder problems . As someone whose shoulders are in constant pain I think it’s part of why he can’t catch . People a lot smarter than me are calling it the worst trade and signing in Seahawks history .

I can see where Tarlhawk is coming from. You overlook Penny's very lengthy injury history, a major reason why we should not be looking to resign him, yet Adams is a busted trade in part because he's not been on the field producing. It is a bit of a contradiction.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think the Doctor's responsibility is limited to whether the player is healthy enough to play and not in danger of re-injury during the normal course of the game.
Hitting a helmet or hand like Russ did isn't considered a normal activity.
The grip strength or other would be secondary from the Doctors PoV and re-injury from receiving the snap or throwing would be primary.
The rest would be up to the coaches and player.

Doctor has to declare Russ healthy enough to play. Coach has to watch him in practice and see that he's ready to play and not operating at reduced ability.

The idea Russ just shows up and goes, "I'm Russell Wilson. I'm playing now because I'm special" is just not how that whole process works. For Russ to be on the field, Pete had to watch him in practice and go, "This guy gives us a better chance to win than our backup and the doctor's declared him healthy, so I'm letting Russ play."

[Aseahawkfan]

I can see where Tarlhawk is coming from. You overlook Penny's very lengthy injury history, a major reason why we should not be looking to resign him, yet Adams is a busted trade in part because he's not been on the field producing. It is a bit of a contradiction.

The whole thing is contradictory. Penny has 4 great games at the end of the year and suddenly he's turned the corner and is going to be amazing from here on out.

Russ gets injured for one year and can't carry the team like he usually does and he's washed up and we're ready to move on from him because he's not happy here after 9 years and the best WR group he's ever had.

And Adams is a busted trade after few years of injuries and more production over six years than Penny has ever given in his career.

That's why I call it recency bias. Some Seahawks fans just want a strong run game so badly that they want to believe the new Penny is the real Penny because they know a strong run game is what makes Pete's offense work. Strong run game helps the defense, helps the offense, helps make everything in Pete's system work better. Passing moves the ball too quickly and stops the clock when it fails making the game last longer. A run game grinds the defense down, eats clock, keeps the defense better rested, and adds wins.

I'd love a strong run game back. I don't think Pete's system works very well without a strong run game myself. He hasn't rebuilt it since Marshawn left.

[Hawktawk]

I can see where Tarlhawk is coming from. You overlook Penny's very lengthy injury history, a major reason why we should not be looking to resign him, yet Adams is a busted trade in part because he's not been on the field producing. It is a bit of a contradiction.

I swear to god RD you have ragged on the trade for Adams louder than anyone anyone and now you see Tarihawks point . You just like tweaking peolles beak and with me its easy to do.

Jesus are you people Stevie wonder? Can you evaluate film? do you check stats? And describe Penney's "lengthy injury history" for me OK? Show me where I'm "overlooking it" He had never been hurt on any level and was healthy his rookie year but Carroll preferred to be giving Carson 20 carries and Penney one or 2 here and there. In the 2018 WC in Dallas Penney got 4 carries for 29 yards, a 7.5 average as Carson plodded his way to 20 yards on 14 carries for a 1.5 yard per carry average and minus 1 on 2 receptions. I think if I was coaching Penney would have got more than 4 touches in a playoff game. I saw it from my couch. That's his rookie year.

Maybe Pete had his head up his arse and couldn't see who was more talented with more potential. Late in 2019 Penney looked twice as good as Carson and got his knee blown out running 100 MPH down the sidelines with a screen pass. That's his injury history. It too a year to get back in game shape, even longer for Carroll to figure out how to use him which isn't as a change of pace guy. Homers that guy. Penney is a bell cow that needs fed. Once they got that figured out its been katy bar the door. Most Seahawks pundits think we should attempt to bring him back so your on the wrong side of the argument for now.

[RiverDog]

I can see where Tarlhawk is coming from. You overlook Penny's very lengthy injury history, a major reason why we should not be looking to resign him, yet Adams is a busted trade in part because he's not been on the field producing. It is a bit of a contradiction.

I swear to god RD you have ragged on the trade for Adams louder than anyone anyone and now you see Tarihawks point . You just like tweaking peolles beak and with me its easy to do.

Yes, I have ragged on the Adams trade. But I've also ragged on Penny and have said repeatedly that I didn't like burning a #1 on him and have expressed doubts about re-signing him. I'm not on either one's bandwagon whereas you are 4 square on Penny's but rag like hell about Adams. That's the difference.

esus are you people Stevie wonder? Can you evaluate film? do you check stats? And describe Penney's "lengthy injury history" for me OK? Show me where I'm "overlooking it" He had never been hurt on any level and was healthy his rookie year but Carroll preferred to be giving Carson 20 carries and Penney one or 2 here and there. In the 2018 WC in Dallas Penney got 4 carries for 29 yards, a 7.5 average as Carson plodded his way to 20 yards on 14 carries for a 1.5 yard per carry average and minus 1 on 2 receptions. I think if I was coaching Penney would have got more than 4 touches in a playoff game. I saw it from my couch. That's his rookie year.

Maybe Pete had his head up his arse and couldn't see who was more talented with more potential. Late in 2019 Penney looked twice as good as Carson and got his knee blown out running 100 MPH down the sidelines with a screen pass. That's his injury history. It too a year to get back in game shape, even longer for Carroll to figure out how to use him which isn't as a change of pace guy. Homers that guy. Penney is a bell cow that needs fed. Once they got that figured out its been katy bar the door. Most Seahawks pundits think we should attempt to bring him back so your on the wrong side of the argument for now.

My eyesight is just fine, thank you. If we can resign Penny for a reasonable amount, ie less than $5M/season, then I'd be amicable. But I think that someone is going to pay him more.

[Hawktawk]

We signed Carson for over 5 last off-season and I believe he played 16 games once for us? Hurt constantly . Same with Adams . I’ll turn it around . Anyone ok with Adams history of injury and Carson’s history going back to college then don’t act worrried about Penney’s extensive injury history . He’s had far less injury than either .


But due to the coach not knowing his potential and not using him and a year injured we have an absolute blue chip first rounder entering his 5th season with less than 1 year wear on his body . And his skills are off the chart . In his 6 th and 7th career starts he became the only man in Seahawks history to rush for over 170 yards in back to back games .

If he were a proven vet with the kind of numbers he’s put up over the last half of the season he’d be in line for one of the biggest deals in the league .
Maybe someone will pay more but we would see if it’s overpayment or not . All you people who hated the pick for 4 years need to get over it . He’s proven the talent was there ,,the skills . Not signing Penney would be as stupid as trading for Adams .

[c_hawkbob]

He had never been hurt on any level and was healthy his rookie year but Carroll preferred to be giving Carson 20 carries and Penney one or 2 here and there.

Here is where you're ignoring facts to suite your narrative. Pete has never had a problem starting a rookie (even a UDFA) over a high draft pick if the kid earned the start. You're not at practice or in the meeting room, if Carson was starting over a healthy Penny it's because he earned the start.

[RiverDog]

He had never been hurt on any level and was healthy his rookie year but Carroll preferred to be giving Carson 20 carries and Penney one or 2 here and there.

Here is where you're ignoring facts to suite your narrative. Pete has never had a problem starting a rookie (even a UDFA) over a high draft pick if the kid earned the start. You're not at practice or in the meeting room, if Carson was starting over a healthy Penny it's because he earned the start.

Not only that, but Carson has always been the more complete back. He was a better short yardage runner, by far the better blocker, and held his own as a receiver out of the backfield. I will admit that Penny has looked better running between the tackles in these past few games than he has during his entire time with us so that could change if we decided to bring him back, but there has never been any doubt in my mind that Carson was the better back. That opinion was affirmed by our coaching staff when we gave Carson a 2nd contract and declined to pick up Penny's 5th year option. It wasn't j/b Penny was hurt a lot as Carson had injuries of his own that limited his play.

That's one of the reasons why I didn't like drafting Penny in the first round, because he wasn't a 3 down back.

[tarlhawk]

My eyesight is just fine, thank you. If we can resign Penny for a reasonable amount, ie less than $5M/season, then I'd be amicable. But I think that someone is going to pay him more.

What we should see as encouraging is that Penny is the kind of feature back that can take the handoff to the bank. I showed a scouting report on him in an earlier post that seemed to hit all his strengths while being balanced with some weaknesses. Chris Carson won the feature back role bursting onto the scene as a 7th Rd pick whose rugged style was inspiring to an audience of fans who reminisced about Marshawn.

Penny was a feature back offering a different play style. Both playstyle's can put a defense on its heals and force the opponent to drop a safety into the box. Given a "light box" (front seven without a Strong Safety) Penny excels and our offensive line schemes open holes for Penny to explore. Once Penny reaches 2nd level his field vision and his ramped up gear creates explosive plays (25+ yds per rush). Carson when healthy can also excel against a "light box" but can sometimes break tackles when the defense drops a SS into the box.

The key for our overall scheme on offense is to have such a balanced threat...Russell using his two play making WR's with Penny/Carson following good O-Line schemes for run blocking...that the Def starts to 2nd guess itself. Two high safeties coverage helps to clamp down on our WR play makers running amok...yet it gives the "light box" that our O-Line can exploit and bust Penny/Carson loose...but if they drop a strong safety into the box to slow our running threats it opens up the deeper field where DK and Tyler can explode.

Add in motion...faster pace from two TE alignments and/or fly sweeps from Dee Eskridge...Gerald Everett can not be ignored...as the TEAM molds into balance and change of pace...our opponents will start having nightmares again...

[RiverDog]

What we should see as encouraging is that Penny is the kind of feature back that can take the handoff to the bank. I showed a scouting report on him in an earlier post that seemed to hit all his strengths while being balanced with some weaknesses. Chris Carson won the feature back role bursting onto the scene as a 7th Rd pick whose rugged style was inspiring to an audience of fans who reminisced about Marshawn.

Penny was a feature back offering a different play style. Both playstyle's can put a defense on its heals and force the opponent to drop a safety into the box. Given a "light box" (front seven without a Strong Safety) Penny excels and our offensive line schemes open holes for Penny to explore. Once Penny reaches 2nd level his field vision and his ramped up gear creates explosive plays (25+ yds per rush). Carson when healthy can also excel against a "light box" but can sometimes break tackles when the defense drops a SS into the box.

The key for our overall scheme on offense is to have such a balanced threat...Russell using his two play making WR's with Penny/Carson following good O-Line schemes for run blocking...that the Def starts to 2nd guess itself. Two high safeties coverage helps to clamp down on our WR play makers running amok...yet it gives the "light box" that our O-Line can exploit and bust Penny/Carson loose...but if they drop a strong safety into the box to slow our running threats it opens up the deeper field where DK and Tyler can explode.

Add in motion...faster pace from two TE alignments and/or fly sweeps from Dee Eskridge...Gerald Everett can not be ignored...as the TEAM molds into balance and change of pace...our opponents will start having nightmares again...

Boy, that's some literary effort, tarl! Send that to Seahawk headquarters as they might want to include it when they mail out renewal notices for season tickets! J/K.

We have a lot of items on the pallet for this offseason, the first of which is either to fire or re-affirm our head coach and GM.

[TriCitySam]

Diggs' injury is a potential career ender and who knows if Adams is going to be able to play after damaging the same shoulder twice.

Digg's broke the fibula down at the ankle. I broke both the fibula and tibia a few years ago and the foot/ankle was just dangling - but surgery went well and I really don't feel any effects from it. And it is really about if there is any ligament damage. All I do is golf, but I have jogged on it and I'm every bit as slow as I ever was .

[tarlhawk]

5 highest paid safeties in the NFL comparison for 2021:
J.Adams Age 26...Games (12)...Tkl (87)...Solo (56)...TFL (4)...Int (2)...Pass Def (5)...QB Hits (2)
H.Smith Age 32...Games (15)...Tkl (114)...Solo (83)...TFL (3)...Int (1)...Pass Def (7)...QB Hits(5)
J.Simmons Age 28...Games (17)...Tkl (80)...Solo (60)...TFL (4)...Int (5)...Pass Def (12)...QB Hits (2)
B.Baker Age 25...Games (17)...Tkl (98)...Solo (63)...TFL (6)...Int (3)...Pass Def (7)...QB Hits (3)
E.Jackson Age 28...Games (14)...Tkl (76)...Solo (54)...TFL (4)...Int (0)...Pass Def (2)...QB Hits (0)

[RiverDog]

Diggs' injury is a potential career ender and who knows if Adams is going to be able to play after damaging the same shoulder twice.

Digg's broke the fibula down at the ankle. I broke both the fibula and tibia a few years ago and the foot/ankle was just dangling - but surgery went well and I really don't feel any effects from it. And it is really about if there is any ligament damage. All I do is golf, but I have jogged on it and I'm every bit as slow as I ever was .

That was Yours Truly RiverDog, not I-5, that made that comment. But I'm pretty sure that he feels it a complement to be mistaken for such an intelligent and insightful poster like myself.

I'm no doctor, but I do know enough that a broken fibula is a potential career ender. As you said, it all depends on how much 'collateral' damage there was.

Your humor, ie every bit as slow as before, is analogous with that of an infrequent but very intelligent and profound poster in our group who goes by the handle of Old but Slow, so you fit right in with us.

[I-5]

That was Yours Truly RiverDog, not I-5, that made that comment. But I'm pretty sure that he feels it a complement to be mistaken for such an intelligent and insightful poster like myself.

The honor is mine lol

[Hawktawk]

He had never been hurt on any level and was healthy his rookie year but Carroll preferred to be giving Carson 20 carries and Penney one or 2 here and there.
Here is where you're ignoring facts to suite your narrative. Pete has never had a problem starting a rookie (even a UDFA) over a high draft pick if the kid earned the start. You're not at practice or in the meeting room, if Carson was starting over a healthy Penny it's because he earned the start.

I’m well aware Pete starts rookies RW comes to mind . And my comments are in hindsight like everything Penney snd Seahawks. Pete isn’t always right . Like giving the ball to Russ on the one . And fair or not Carson is sort of a poor mans beast mode that was in the way . He’s a good back *when healthy *. Runs with a punishing style but it punishes him. Good pass blocker , usually good in short yardage . But I mention the 2018 wild card where Penney gets 4 carries for 29 and Carson gets 14 for 20 and nobody wants to talk about it . Pete missed seeing what he had till later in 2019 and Penney had a coming out party and got hurt . Carson can’t hold Penney’s jock strap as a game changer . Pete was wrong . Wrong in the wildcard . If he had this guy on his bench for 4 years it’s on him .

[Old but Slow]

Thanks for the compliment, River, I consider myself as hilarious, but my friends tend to roll their eyes. It might just be a nervous tic, though.

[I-5]

I broke both the fibula and tibia a few years ago and the foot/ankle was just dangling - but surgery went well and I really don't feel any effects from it. And it is really about if there is any ligament damage. All I do is golf, but I have jogged on it and I'm every bit as slow as I ever was .

Yikes that sounds so gruesome, but glad you are fully recovered with no lasting effects. How did you injure it, if I may ask?