Offseason changes

[c_hawkbob]

What does everyone think?

[curmudgeon]

#6.

[RiverDog]

I chose #6, too. I have a feeling that Russell wants out no matter what Pete's fate is.

[NorthHawk]

#5 is what I would prefer, but I'm not sure it's realistic at this point.

[tarlhawk]

I think rather strongly that #7 will be the appropriate and eventual outcome...Pete and John just got votes of confidence through contract renewal and I think Russ is smarter than his prodding baseball agent.

[Aseahawkfan]

#8: Pete retires after a conversation with ownership that they don't believe the team is close to a Super Bowl and that Pete will be expected to do a rebuild without GM power. Pete declines and retires. John Schneider is offered the job, but he doesn't take it as he doesn't feel working without Pete will feel the same. So he moves on until his dream job of GM in Green Bay opens. We keep Russell as an attractive option for a new HC where they come in with a QB already in place and can rebuild the parts around him. We start search for a new HC and GM.

Pete should not be fired IMO. He should be brought into line with reality and allowed to make a choice as to whether he agrees with that reality or he doesn't. As far as I see it Pete's view of what the team is and what the team is are not in line at all. If I were the owner, I would tell Pete, "This team is nearly as bad right now as when you first arrived. We are that far from Super Bowl contention. You have a QB in place and a few pieces, but we need a real rebuild. You don't have the draft capital to rebuild fast like you did back then, but that is how you need to look at the team right now. You need to rebuild it, especially the defense, back into an elite unite. If you're up for that, then we can work together. If you disagree, then we should part ways and each go our own way."

If Pete could swallow his ego and felt up for it and wanted to go back to when he first arrived turning over every rock, making smart trades, and rebuilding the team with young talent competing for jobs on a team looking to rise again, then I would give him the chance to do so. If Pete wants to hold on to the idea that we're a few players away from a Super Bowl with a defense that has near zero elite level talent, an O-line anchored by an aging LT whose best years are behind him, and a RB position that isn't consistently productive or healthy then I feel he is clearly out of touch with reality.

It's very hard to gauge how John Schneider feels about much of this because he is so loyal to Pete that he never disagrees with Pete publicly. So hard to gauge if John Schneider has a more realistic view of where the Seahawks are and is just being loyal to Pete for all the years Pete has treated him well and believed in him.

But right now we're as good as our record. We're far from Super Bowl contention. Our roster has very little elite talent, especially on defense. Our strongest unit is our WR corps and our strongest player is our QB regardless of how many people don't want to give credit to Russell for carrying this team to the playoffs for the past 4 years prior to this year when our defense fell from elite to middle of the pack and our run game became inconsistent.

This team needs much better drafting on defense and to hit strong on some defensive talent. And we need a RB who can carry or split the load consistently without missing a ton of games every year or can't step up when other teams bring the pain to stop them. We need a RB with the Marshawn mentality on keep on punishing back until I break you because you will not break me.

[RiverDog]

#8: Pete retires after a conversation with ownership that they don't believe the team is close to a Super Bowl and that Pete will be expected to do a rebuild without GM power. Pete declines and retires. John Schneider is offered the job, but he doesn't take it as he doesn't feel working without Pete will feel the same. So he moves on until his dream job of GM in Green Bay opens. We keep Russell as an attractive option for a new HC where they come in with a QB already in place and can rebuild the parts around him. We start search for a new HC and GM.

Pete should not be fired IMO. He should be brought into line with reality and allowed to make a choice as to whether he agrees with that reality or he doesn't. As far as I see it Pete's view of what the team is and what the team is are not in line at all. If I were the owner, I would tell Pete, "This team is nearly as bad right now as when you first arrived. We are that far from Super Bowl contention. You have a QB in place and a few pieces, but we need a real rebuild. You don't have the draft capital to rebuild fast like you did back then, but that is how you need to look at the team right now. You need to rebuild it, especially the defense, back into an elite unite. If you're up for that, then we can work together. If you disagree, then we should part ways and each go our own way."

If Pete could swallow his ego and felt up for it and wanted to go back to when he first arrived turning over every rock, making smart trades, and rebuilding the team with young talent competing for jobs on a team looking to rise again, then I would give him the chance to do so. If Pete wants to hold on to the idea that we're a few players away from a Super Bowl with a defense that has near zero elite level talent, an O-line anchored by an aging LT whose best years are behind him, and a RB position that isn't consistently productive or healthy then I feel he is clearly out of touch with reality.

It's very hard to gauge how John Schneider feels about much of this because he is so loyal to Pete that he never disagrees with Pete publicly. So hard to gauge if John Schneider has a more realistic view of where the Seahawks are and is just being loyal to Pete for all the years Pete has treated him well and believed in him.

But right now we're as good as our record. We're far from Super Bowl contention. Our roster has very little elite talent, especially on defense. Our strongest unit is our WR corps and our strongest player is our QB regardless of how many people don't want to give credit to Russell for carrying this team to the playoffs for the past 4 years prior to this year when our defense fell from elite to middle of the pack and our run game became inconsistent.

This team needs much better drafting on defense and to hit strong on some defensive talent. And we need a RB who can carry or split the load consistently without missing a ton of games every year or can't step up when other teams bring the pain to stop them. We need a RB with the Marshawn mentality on keep on punishing back until I break you because you will not break me.

I agree with most of that. My first preference is that Pete reads the writing on the wall and decides that it's in both his interest as well as the team that he steps aside. Perhaps they can allow him to keep a portion of what's owed in the balance of his contract by him agreeing to stay on as some sort of consultant or advisor, perhaps give him some input on his successor. Firing is not befitting of the man that gave us the best era of Seahawk football in franchise history.

[Hawktawk]

I’ll go with 4. JS contract running 2 years longer than PC is no accident by Vulcan and Jodi Allen imo. He’s younger . He’s a top evaluator of talent . Most important he’s the one with Jodies ear . In all this controversy I found it interesting that Pete said everything is on the same page with everyone but then admitting it’s John that has daily communications with her and he only sees her if a meeting is called . Pete is talking like a dead man walking . Russ is talking like a man who wants a change of scenery but doesn’t want his adoring fans to blame him for it happening . JS is CRICKETS….. like Jodi . The only leak into his mindset was a statement attributed to him saying he was “open to starting anew”. What does that mean ? Did he say that ? If they are moving on it’s the route that makes the most since as he’s certainly proven he knows how to find talent and had connections around the league to provide continuity . I’ve never been a big fan of coaches with all the power . Allow JS a voice in hiring . Have Vulcan make the actual choice . I’m sure part of JS is drooling at the prospects of engineering a blockbuster trade .
The best scenario would be walk it back and hope it worked #7 but I think it’s whistling in the graveyard . It ain’t happening .


As for needing to offer PC some easy way to resign respectfully, why? He’s probably made 100 million here coaching a kids game . He’s been given every resource to succeed and he did quite a bit of succeeding . Last 5 years 1 playoff win and 2 non playoff seasons including this dreadful 10’loss one . He’s completely lost control of the Qb who calls his own shots . He can’t accept reality about the true nature of the teams failures . Love me some PC . He’s a big boy that gotten a pink slip before and he will be just fine with having smoke blown up his arse .

[RiverDog]

As for needing to offer PC some easy way to resign respectfully, why? He’s probably made 100 million here coaching a kids game . He’s been given every resource to succeed and he did quite a bit of succeeding . Last 5 years 1 playoff win and 2 non playoff seasons including this dreadful 10’loss one . He’s completely lost control of the Qb who calls his own shots . He can’t accept reality about the true nature of the teams failures . Love me some PC . He’s a big boy that gotten a pink slip before and he will be just fine with having smoke blown up his arse .

If it were someone like Jon Gruden, I wouldn't hesitate a second to can his arse outright. But Pete's not that kind of personality. He's been faithful to our team, a player's coach that is widely respected around the league, and gives every appearance of being a nice guy. For all he's done for this franchise, I feel very strongly that we owe it to him to give him as respectful of a departure as possible.

I don't get the impression that he'd be confrontational if a person that he respects sits down with him face to face and discusses his future. He knows full well what kind of business the NFL is and the pressures that management faces. There's plenty of ways to compromise if he doesn't want to completely leave the team. I don't think that he'd force them to fire him.

[Hawktawk]

I doubt if Vulcan is too worried about Pete’s reaction . He’s a classy genuinely nice person . Too nice for his own good when dealing with his team . He’s not gonna be a problem no matter what they say . Just like Russ the greatest we ever had , a HOF type resume . He will have a statue and be in the ring forever . I keep getting a weird inkling Russ may be the only guy leaving too. That’s what Peter King thinks too.

[NorthHawk]

If they want to get rid of him, they could just pay him out.
NFL teams make a huge profit each year and Pete's contract is a minor figure in comparison.

[RiverDog]

If they want to get rid of him, they could just pay him out.
NFL teams make a huge profit each year and Pete's contract is a minor figure in comparison.

Nor do I imagine that Pete needs the money. My point is more about cosmetics and wording than it is about money.

I also think that it might be worthwhile to see if he wants to stay on in some capacity. He's still a brilliant football mind with valuable insight that could be very useful to a new coach, especially if he's a relatively young coach or one that has never been a HC before.

[NorthHawk]

Unfortunately he has become or is a control freak. It's his program that has been set up here and I doubt he would want to
let anyone else run it and I don't think he has the desire or ability to step back from large parts of the day to day routines.
In essence I think it's all or nothing with Pete Carroll.

[RiverDog]

Unfortunately he has become or is a control freak. It's his program that has been set up here and I doubt he would want to
let anyone else run it and I don't think he has the desire or ability to step back from large parts of the day to day routines.
In essence I think it's all or nothing with Pete Carroll.

He was a control freak when we first hired him, that's for sure. But has his mindset changed? I don't think that you or me are close enough to the situation to do any more than guess.

In any event, I feel that we should at least lay out a viable alternative to outright termination. If he chooses not to accept it, then fine. But I don't want to do to Pete what Jerry Jones did to Tom Landry.

[Hawktawk]

Hasslebeck said after the bears that he’s seeing things on the field now that the Pete Carroll he played for would not put up with . It’s what I see rewinding the games . Poor fundamentals, lazy, standing around instead of flying around . Watching teammates fight while standing with their hands on their hips .

I don’t see the roster as being the biggest problem as much as others here . It’s far from a 6 -10 bad roster . It’s execution and desire .
No Pete won’t pull a Holmgren and allow his wings to be clipped . And unless he rediscovers the fire in his belly and start coaching these guys up I don’t want him around .

[RiverDog]

Hasslebeck said after the bears that he’s seeing things on the field now that the Pete Carroll he played for would not put up with . It’s what I see rewinding the games . Poor fundamentals, lazy, standing around instead of flying around . Watching teammates fight while standing with their hands on their hips .

I don’t see the roster as being the biggest problem as much as others here . It’s far from a 6 -10 bad roster . It’s execution and desire .
No Pete won’t pull a Holmgren and allow his wings to be clipped . And unless he rediscovers the fire in his belly and start coaching these guys up I don’t want him around .

I don't want him to be the HC anymore, either, but I do think that the man still has value. Pete has a vast ream of knowledge and has forgotten more about football than anyone we could hire. Besides, his replacement would be under no obligation to take his advice, so what harm can it do to keep him around as a consultant?

[Oly]

I think it's a toss up between #7 and any of the options where one guy leaves. For as frustrating as Russ has been to watch for the last season (at least), he's still a great QB and it seems like his position is the safest. I think that between Pete and John, Pete stays. He's had the majority of control, and if ownership wants to make a token "this has to improve, see how serious we are" type of firing then John is high profile enough to send that message without actually dismantling the core of the team (Pete/Russ). Also, John is at least nominally in charge of player acquisition, so if you're going to fire someone for missing in the draft, it's going to be John. (I say that with the caveat that I have no idea how much of the drafting and trading picks falls on John's shoulders vs. Pete's.)

[RiverDog]

I think it's a toss up between #7 and any of the options where one guy leaves. For as frustrating as Russ has been to watch for the last season (at least), he's still a great QB and it seems like his position is the safest. I think that between Pete and John, Pete stays. He's had the majority of control, and if ownership wants to make a token "this has to improve, see how serious we are" type of firing then John is high profile enough to send that message without actually dismantling the core of the team (Pete/Russ). Also, John is at least nominally in charge of player acquisition, so if you're going to fire someone for missing in the draft, it's going to be John. (I say that with the caveat that I have no idea how much of the drafting and trading picks falls on John's shoulders vs. Pete's.)

I haven't heard the idea of firing JS and retaining Pete being floated anywhere. IMO that would truly be like throwing a virgin into a volcano to satisfy the Gods. JS doesn't do squat unless Pete signs off on it. This is Pete's football team and no one else's. Pete made it clear when he was hired that was how it was going to be, and nothing has happened since that would change that paradigm.

[Oly]

I haven't heard the idea of firing JS and retaining Pete being floated anywhere. IMO that would truly be like throwing a virgin into a volcano to satisfy the Gods. JS doesn't do squat unless Pete signs off on it. This is Pete's football team and no one else's. Pete made it clear when he was hired that was how it was going to be, and nothing has happened since that would change that paradigm.

I haven't heard that idea, either, but your post is exactly why I think it's plausible. It's a way of making it look like they are being serious about holding this FO accountable while not actually making changes that will disturb the team. It's basically the #7 mulligan option with the veneer of major changes.

[tarlhawk]

Also, John is at least nominally in charge of player acquisition, so if you're going to fire someone for missing in the draft, it's going to be John. (I say that with the caveat that I have no idea how much of the drafting and trading picks falls on John's shoulders vs. Pete's.)

On the Seahawks official site it mentioned in 2010 that Pete was given the powers of Executive Vice President/GM/Coach while John held GM as an advisor to Pete. In 2013 John also held title of Executive Vice President and would be GM and responsible for personnel with Pete being Coach and Executive Vice President of Football Operations...basically having veto power if he disagreed on something John was about to do.

[RiverDog]

Also, John is at least nominally in charge of player acquisition, so if you're going to fire someone for missing in the draft, it's going to be John. (I say that with the caveat that I have no idea how much of the drafting and trading picks falls on John's shoulders vs. Pete's.)

On the Seahawks official site it mentioned in 2010 that Pete was given the powers of Executive Vice President/GM/Coach while John held GM as an advisor to Pete. In 2013 John also held title of Executive Vice President and would be GM and responsible for personnel with Pete being Coach and Executive Vice President of Football Operations...basically having veto power if he disagreed on something John was about to do.

JS may have more authority on draft day as things move so fast that there may not be enough time for equivocation and consultation, particularly on the 2nd and 3rd days when there's less time to make a selection, the draft board has been thrown into disarray, and having to make/field offers from 31 other teams, but outside of that, there is no doubt in my mind that everything runs through Pete.

If they decide to throw JS under the bus while retaining Pete, I'll be outraged.

[tarlhawk]

JS may have more authority on draft day as things move so fast that there may not be enough time for equivocation and consultation, particularly on the 2nd and 3rd days when there's less time to make a selection, the draft board has been thrown into disarray, and having to make/field offers from 31 other teams, but outside of that, there is no doubt in my mind that everything runs through Pete.

If they decide to throw JS under the bus while retaining Pete, I'll be outraged.

Highly unlikely for JS to be removed...Pete and John with their scouting department no doubt work together assembling their Draft Board and both are quite active on Draft Day...working the phones as their selection gets closer...with Pete as Executive VP of Football Operations you would be surprised if major decisions didn't run through Pete? Its an active responsibility not just a title...

[RiverDog]

JS may have more authority on draft day as things move so fast that there may not be enough time for equivocation and consultation, particularly on the 2nd and 3rd days when there's less time to make a selection, the draft board has been thrown into disarray, and having to make/field offers from 31 other teams, but outside of that, there is no doubt in my mind that everything runs through Pete.

If they decide to throw JS under the bus while retaining Pete, I'll be outraged.

Highly unlikely for JS to be removed...Pete and John with their scouting department no doubt work together assembling their Draft Board and both are quite active on Draft Day...working the phones as their selection gets closer...with Pete as Executive VP of Football Operations you would be surprised if major decisions didn't run through Pete? Its an active responsibility not just a title...

Agreed, and I think that's why Cbob didn't include it as an option in his OP.

That's not to diminish JS's role. Think of him as the bird dog that flushes the roosters with Pete as the hunter with the 12 gauge.

[NorthHawk]

I doubt JS goes and Pete stays.
It's hard enough to find a good GM, but to get a good GM who doesn't have control of player personnel would be even harder.
Then they would have to find someone that Pete thinks is compatible, all in the short time leading up to FA and the draft.
It would be a lot smoother to replace Pete or Pete and John then move on. It's a lot of work for a new HC/GM but if done
early enough a good direction can be set.

[Hawktawk]

I see no scenario where JS leaves other than a full on rebuild where they clean house . I think that is committing franchise suicide if there’s nobody left that knows the way around the Vmack. Among many revelations I’ve gleaned from watching film and seeing the second half of season individual performances of the athletes on the team is that it’s not a terrible roster . Adams is a glaring fire able offense . LJ Collier is a miss . Duane Brown isn’t terrible but fading . The line has not been awful . Many of the sacks taken by both Russ and Geno were coverage sacks when they held the ball too long . Many injured players showed why they were chosen before being injured . Penney will present a problem for anyone he faces if he stays healthy and keeps working . Not terrible talent evaluation .

There are needs . But our scoring defense is still top 10 . And spare me the bad time but there are quite a few teams in the league that can’t score 51 on anyone . Not to mention losing a possession and kneeling on the one . Those same players gave up 20 to Matt Ryan and an Atlanta team contending for a playoff spot the week before .
We have needs but not a terrible roster . It’s coaching and enthusiasm . They say a Carroll hasn’t lost the team because they have been competitive and turned in some great individual performances . I think PC is the exact opposite of a Billy Martin microwave type manager . Loosy goosy anything goes just show up for practice and games . It was the formula for a long time but I think in a way the team has turned on him by not playing the way he’s coached them to . I think they all understand at this point their performance is a job interview and nothing more .

[NorthHawk]

There is some core talent on this team.
But at positions we rely on we have whiffed in the draft. We need a stud RB and we passed on Chubb and Taylor.
We needed and still need a legitimate pass rusher and we passed on TJ Watt. Those were 2 obvious areas we need to improve but didn't address.
We still need an upgrade at Center, but haven't addressed that since trading Unger and we passed on good Centers in a number of drafts.
We need better DB's and will probably have to find a starting Safety when we let Diggs go since we overpaid in both draft capital and Cap for Adams.
Maybe there's one on the team that can fill Digg's shoes.

[tarlhawk]

There is some core talent on this team.
But at positions we rely on we have whiffed in the draft. We need a stud RB and we passed on Chubb and Taylor.
We needed and still need a legitimate pass rusher and we passed on TJ Watt. Those were 2 obvious areas we need to improve but didn't address.
We still need an upgrade at Center, but haven't addressed that since trading Unger and we passed on good Centers in a number of drafts.
We need better DB's and will probably have to find a starting Safety when we let Diggs go since we overpaid in both draft capital and Cap for Adams.
Maybe there's one on the team that can fill Digg's shoes.

I already expressed why Chubb wasn't chosen with Carson aboard (before the disabling neck injury). Penny gave us a possible upgrade for kick returns and would provide a 2nd feature back...either go with your "hot" hand or rotate with different plays in mind...RB1a and Rb1b

Jonathan Taylor was not an unknown and definitely fits the Marshon type feature back we look for but KJ was coming up on his contract year and Bobby isn't getting younger so Jordyn Brooks became a better choice for our teams needs.

ALL teams look for a legitimate pass rusher and since TJ Watt (picked 30th) wasn't first player selected in draft...this was a mistake in hindsight for many teams(29 teams passed on him). We traded our first pick down to get the player we had been targeting Malik McDowell...we'll never know what he might have been since his ATV accident caused head trauma to the point he didn't play a single snap for us...The John Madden (RIP game) for that year had Malik McDowell playing like a "beast" so I'm sure thats how we envisioned him before his tragic accident.

I hope we keep Diggs as well...but if Blair can be fully healthy and ready for 2022...he would be an option.

Marquise Blair NFL Draft 2019: Scouting Report for Seattle Seahawks' Pick
Matt MillerApril 26, 2019

SANTA CLARA, CA - NOVEMBER 30: Marquise Blair #13 of the Utah Utes warms up before the Pac 12 Championship game against the Washington Huskies at Levi's Stadium on November 30, 2018 in Santa Clara, California. (Photo by Ezra Shaw/Getty Images)
Ezra Shaw/Getty Images

STRENGTHS

—Hybrid safety that played all over the secondary for Utah.

—Loves to come up and make plays in the run game and does a good job taking on blockers.

—Has enough speed and range to play single high safety in the NFL.

—His physicality and aggressiveness will transition to special teams very nicely.

WEAKNESSES

—Lacks the bulk in his frame to shed blockers or play physically at the line of scrimmage.

—Costly penalties and undisciplined at times.

—Leaves his coverage to make plays on mobile quarterbacks.

—Takes himself out of plays with poor angles in run and pass defense.

OVERALL

Highly aggressive and competitive player. That aggression can be both a strength and a weakness as it has taken him out of plays and games, but at the same time helped position him to make plays. Blair will be able to take a role as a special team player early in his career while providing depth throughout the secondary.

[NorthHawk]

Go on.
Continue to be an apologist for a Front Office who have screwed up for the last 6 or so years.
If you like sinking into irrelevance, so be it but many of us other fans can see what's going on and don't like it.

[RiverDog]

There is some core talent on this team.
But at positions we rely on we have whiffed in the draft. We need a stud RB and we passed on Chubb and Taylor.
We needed and still need a legitimate pass rusher and we passed on TJ Watt. Those were 2 obvious areas we need to improve but didn't address.
We still need an upgrade at Center, but haven't addressed that since trading Unger and we passed on good Centers in a number of drafts.
We need better DB's and will probably have to find a starting Safety when we let Diggs go since we overpaid in both draft capital and Cap for Adams.
Maybe there's one on the team that can fill Digg's shoes.

I already expressed why Chubb wasn't chosen with Carson aboard (before the disabling neck injury). Penny gave us a possible upgrade for kick returns and would provide a 2nd feature back...either go with your "hot" hand or rotate with different plays in mind...RB1a and Rb1b

Jonathan Taylor was not an unknown and definitely fits the Marshon type feature back we look for but KJ was coming up on his contract year and Bobby isn't getting younger so Jordyn Brooks became a better choice for our teams needs.

I'm actually opposite both of you on this one. I did not agree with burning a first round draft choice on a running back in the season which we selected Penny. Unless there's a truly generational talent that has fallen out of the top 10, a talent like a Barkley or Elliott, I do not like burning high draft picks on a two down player in a position that has a short shelf life.

Coming out of college, Penny wasn't known as a good blocker, so the best we could hope for is that he'd be a 3rd down/change of pace running back unless we could develop his blocking skills. IMO there are other players...Chris Carson being a prime example...that can be found in the lower rounds that can do an adequate job of filling that role without such a large amount of draft capital and salary expense.

The fact that both Carson and Penny have been hurt so much over the past couple of years is evidence of my argument. Why dedicate so many resources to players that spend most of their time in the hot tub?

[NorthHawk]

Carson was never healthy even in college, so he couldn't be counted on to be healthy.
Penny wasn't challenged by any of the good colleges and only started 1 year so there wasn't much data on him.
Chubb on the other hand played against the best defenses in college and dominated. He did have a knee injury
but came back and had a very good year right after, so his body of work was well known and he was one of the
better RB's to come out in quite a while. He would have been the perfect RB to take the load with Carson becoming
the 2nd RB and spell Chubb. This probably would have kept Carson healthier as his carries would have been limited.
Penny? He had 1 good year in a sub par division. He wasn't good enough to beat out Donnel Pumphrey in his junior
year which says a lot about the competition in the MWC. Chubb, on the other hand was and is a perfect fit for
Pete's Offense with his toughness, speed, and power. He runs the way Pete wants to play. Penny has not done so
with the possible exception of the last few games of his contract year. It just wasn't the better selection and Pete
has alluded to that in the past.

[Hawktawk]

Carson has been an injury nightmare and unlike Penney who was badly hurt and not being counted on Carson has had the offense tailored to his running style only to go down . Seems he’s always hurt . If there is a guy I don’t bring back it’s him . Overall it’s not a bad RB room right now . I think we’ve averaged over 4 ypc on the season . Just too many 3 and outs . Now with bell cow type performances from Penney behind a decent run blocking line suddenly we can convert 3rd downs 7-11 vs Detroit .

[c_hawkbob]

I haven't heard the idea of firing JS and retaining Pete being floated anywhere.

Yes you have. #2 choice in this poll.

[RiverDog]

I haven't heard the idea of firing JS and retaining Pete being floated anywhere.

Yes you have. #2 choice in this poll.

Ah. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[RiverDog]

Carson was never healthy even in college, so he couldn't be counted on to be healthy.
Penny wasn't challenged by any of the good colleges and only started 1 year so there wasn't much data on him.
Chubb on the other hand played against the best defenses in college and dominated. He did have a knee injury
but came back and had a very good year right after, so his body of work was well known and he was one of the
better RB's to come out in quite a while. He would have been the perfect RB to take the load with Carson becoming
the 2nd RB and spell Chubb. This probably would have kept Carson healthier as his carries would have been limited.
Penny? He had 1 good year in a sub par division. He wasn't good enough to beat out Donnel Pumphrey in his junior
year which says a lot about the competition in the MWC. Chubb, on the other hand was and is a perfect fit for
Pete's Offense with his toughness, speed, and power. He runs the way Pete wants to play. Penny has not done so
with the possible exception of the last few games of his contract year. It just wasn't the better selection and Pete
has alluded to that in the past.

Chubb did have an injury history in college:

Oct. 10th, 2015: Chubb tore the PCL, MCL and LCL in his left knee. He also dislocated the knee and suffered cartilage damage.

https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/inj ... chubb/9980

But I do I agree with you on your logic of Chubb vs. Penny. I just don't like drafting a RB in the first round regardless of their injury history unless they're a really special player. The position itself is more injury prone and running backs have shorter careers than linemen do.

[tarlhawk]

But I do I agree with you on your logic of Chubb vs. Penny. I just don't like drafting a RB in the first round regardless of their injury history unless they're a really special player. The position itself is more injury prone and running backs have shorter careers than linemen do.

If you watch film highlights prior to the draft you see a special player especially when running in space...a good runner on screens if we can design plays and practice till the timing is close to perfect...a good screen helps to "tame" an aggressive pass rush which is why its often performed by our opponents on us. The main reason I already posted before...as an excellent runner in space...he could have been a kick returner before vying for snaps from Carson...Lockett was our last electrifying returner on ST.

[RiverDog]

But I do I agree with you on your logic of Chubb vs. Penny. I just don't like drafting a RB in the first round regardless of their injury history unless they're a really special player. The position itself is more injury prone and running backs have shorter careers than linemen do.

If you watch film highlights prior to the draft you see a special player especially when running in space...a good runner on screens if we can design plays and practice till the timing is close to perfect...a good screen helps to "tame" an aggressive pass rush which is why its often performed by our opponents on us. The main reason I already posted before...as an excellent runner in space...he could have been a kick returner before vying for snaps from Carson...Lockett was our last electrifying returner on ST.

Except that we haven't utilized Penny on screen passes. As a matter of fact, I have a hard time recalling when the last time was that the screen pass to a running back has been a significant part of our offense.

It’s no secret that fans of the Seattle Seahawks have wondered for years why the team isn’t better at executing screen passes. The question is especially confounding given that the Hawks have one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL under center and some of the talent that they’ve had at the running back position. Whether it’s been Marshawn Lynch, Chris Carson or any of the other backs who have carried the ball for the Hawks in recent seasons, the screen game has never been strong.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/2/11/21 ... enny-colts

Additionally, we haven't used Penny on special teams that much either. His special teams contributions has not been any kind of contributing factor that might help justify a first round selection. IMO drafting Penny in the first round was a waste of a valuable resource.

[curmudgeon]

Seattle has been a terrible screen team under Carroll……

[tarlhawk]

Except that we haven't utilized Penny on screen passes. As a matter of fact, I have a hard time recalling when the last time was that the screen pass to a running back has been a significant part of our offense.
Additionally, we haven't used Penny on special teams that much either. His special teams contributions has not been any kind of contributing factor that might help justify a first round selection. IMO drafting Penny in the first round was a waste of a valuable resource.

I think our O-Line is athletic enough to get out in front...Schotti used screens a lot when with the NY Jets so I was anticipating some plays making it effective for us. It might be Pete thinking it wasn't necessary with an elusive/athletic RW who could just rollout and hit a RB in space (the flat)...but as RW slows down a surprising screen should become a part of our gameplan. I think the few we have tried aren't being disguised and our opponents seem ready...its definitely a timing play needing a disciplined RB to catch the ball before looking upfield.

Unfortunately the special teams aspect didn't bear fruit since Penny suddenly showed a penchant for getting injured...no way you put him on kick returns if he's "snake bit".

[RiverDog]

Except that we haven't utilized Penny on screen passes. As a matter of fact, I have a hard time recalling when the last time was that the screen pass to a running back has been a significant part of our offense.
Additionally, we haven't used Penny on special teams that much either. His special teams contributions has not been any kind of contributing factor that might help justify a first round selection. IMO drafting Penny in the first round was a waste of a valuable resource.

I think our O-Line is athletic enough to get out in front...Schotti used screens a lot when with the NY Jets so I was anticipating some plays making it effective for us. It might be Pete thinking it wasn't necessary with an elusive/athletic RW who could just rollout and hit a RB in space (the flat)...but as RW slows down a surprising screen should become a part of our gameplan. I think the few we have tried aren't being disguised and our opponents seem ready...its definitely a timing play needing a disciplined RB to catch the ball before looking upfield.

Unfortunately the special teams aspect didn't bear fruit since Penny suddenly showed a penchant for getting injured...no way you put him on kick returns if he's "snake bit".

Or maybe the reason why he quit putting him back on kick returns was because he wasn't all that productive. Penny has had just 8 kick returns in 2018 and 3 in 2019. Out of his 11 career kick returns, he's had just 3 that were 20+ and has a career long of 23 yards. He has never returned a punt for us.

https://www.nfl.com/players/rashaad-penny/stats/career

You're grasping for straws, my friend.

[tarlhawk]

Or maybe the reason why he quit putting him back on kick returns was because he wasn't all that productive. Penny has had just 8 kick returns in 2018 and 3 in 2019. Out of his 11 career kick returns, he's had just 3 that were 20+ and has a career long of 23 yards. He has never returned a punt for us.
You're grasping for straws, my friend.

Not straws...those number of attempts are barely a sample size...I mentioned Kick Returns because most likely you start running in space...and he had some electrifying returns on pre-draft game films. He wouldn't make a good Punt Returner because that requires "good hands first" ...ie Defensive Backs/Wide Receivers...and depending on opponents coverage you're not as likely to start in open space...which is why your best punters get good "hang times".