Rams Game

[RiverDog]

Russ has rightfully earned all the accolades he has had in his career, and is I think a sure first-ballot HOF'er. But he simply has been mediocre to awful this season (except for Week 1). He's probably a victim of his own success, since he's done it for so long with an average team, but nothing is different about the team this year from last year except the defense is better, and he simply isn't playing up to his own standard.

IMO Russell's resume is a bit thin to be considered a first ballot HOF'er. IMO he needs another Lombardi/SB MVP or a league MVP to make him a slam dunk.

There's no doubt that the Russell Wilson we saw Tuesday wasn't the same Russ that we've seen over the vast majority of his career. It is because of his injury? Maybe, but it doesn't explain everything as he was playing inconsistently prior to being injured.

It's going to be an interesting off season.

[c_hawkbob]

There is nothing Russ could do to displace himself from first ballot status. Too many records, too many firsts. I don't know if he's past all that now as some of y'all seem to think (I certainly hope not) but even if he never regains that level of play or gets that sweet long ball back his ticket is already punched. He's not the GOAT but he doesn't have to be, he's the best 'face of the franchise' we've ever had and I happy as a pig in slop he wound up a Seahawk.

[NorthHawk]

In the back of my mind I've been thinking Russ hasn't been the same since last year when Pete stepped in on the Offense and
changed it back to his style of game. It's almost like Russ decided he wanted out then and is trying to give it his all even though
his heart isn't really in it anymore. That change happened quickly last year and he doesn't seem to have overcome it even if he
has had some very good games. To me, his overall play began to decline after that change. If you remember last year Wilson
started the year on fire and carried the team for 5 wins then the Offense hit a dry spell and Pete changed it back to his view of
what he wants to do (I think his statement in a press conference was "This is not a type of football I know or understand"). After
that Russ seemed to go into a funk and we then heard and saw the drama that went on after the season.

[RiverDog]

In the back of my mind I've been thinking Russ hasn't been the same since last year when Pete stepped in on the Offense and
changed it back to his style of game. It's almost like Russ decided he wanted out then and is trying to give it his all even though
his heart isn't really in it anymore. That change happened quickly last year and he doesn't seem to have overcome it even if he
has had some very good games. To me, his overall play began to decline after that change. If you remember last year Wilson
started the year on fire and carried the team for 5 wins then the Offense hit a dry spell and Pete changed it back to his view of
what he wants to do (I think his statement in a press conference was "This is not a type of football I know or understand"). After
that Russ seemed to go into a funk and we then heard and saw the drama that went on after the season.

I hope that explains Russell's demise as it would suggest that it can be easily fixed. But there's the possibility that his finger has healed in a way that it's changed his delivery enough to where he can't get it back to its preinjury condition. He was throwing the prettiest, rainbow deep balls in the league, but since his return, he's been under throwing intermediate and long range passes, the ones that require the most finesse.

[tarlhawk]

There is nothing Russ could do to displace himself from first ballot status. Too many records, too many firsts. I don't know if he's past all that now as some of y'all seem to think (I certainly hope not) but even if he never regains that level of play or gets that sweet long ball back his ticket is already punched. He's not the GOAT but he doesn't have to be, he's the best 'face of the franchise' we've ever had and I happy as a pig in slop he wound up a Seahawk.

Agreed and well said...he has performed in an accelerated burst of skill with all the gusto of Dan Marino's success and I was a big time Marino/Dolphin fan since (1983/1971). Dan Marino never brought home a Lombardi and benefitted many years having an All-Pro center Dwight Stephenson whose career was cut short (chop-blocked from behind his knees by a NY Jet while trailing an interception return far from the action). Their defenses under Marino (as well as Dan Fouts) were much maligned as a direct result of a quick strike offense which makes the defense go right back out time and again ...having to stall the common 4th quarter surge of the opponents offense once the Defense is gassed.

Russell not only has a Lombardi but went to back-to-back Super Bowls and owns a litany of records which should stand the test of time. Its never been a case of "poor Russ" carrying his average team mates and a clueless Coach. Russ's and Pete Carrol's successes are linked together. This Rams game did shackle Russ as the value of having both DK and Lockett was exposed with Locketts absence and Russ confidence/accuracy downfield just a bit off. Dee Eskridge almost pulled off a Lockett type play deep downfield... and DK doesn't have to slow down once attaining separation (with Russ being his "usual self").

[RiverDog]

There is nothing Russ could do to displace himself from first ballot status. Too many records, too many firsts. I don't know if he's past all that now as some of y'all seem to think (I certainly hope not) but even if he never regains that level of play or gets that sweet long ball back his ticket is already punched. He's not the GOAT but he doesn't have to be, he's the best 'face of the franchise' we've ever had and I happy as a pig in slop he wound up a Seahawk.

Quarterback is without a doubt the most quantifiable position in the game, so let's take a look at some of Russell's career numbers and see how they match up with other QB's:

Total passing yards: Russell 36,400, ranks 27th all time. Other active players include Joe Flacco with 41,200, Mathew Stafford 49,200, Aaron Rodgers 54,700, Matt Ryan 59,100, Ben Wortlessburger 63,500, and Tom Brady 83,500. Other recently retired QB's include Eli Manning at 57,000, Phillip Rivers at 63,00 and Drew Brees at 80,000.

Touchdown passes: Russell is ranked 17th all time with 283. Active players ahead of him include Stafford with 317, Ryan with 365, Worthlessburger 415, Rodgers 442, and Brady at 617. Eli had 366, Rivers 421, Brees 571.

I'm not sure which firsts and record breaking performances you're talking about, but it would seem to me that it would have to be something very extraordinary that would cause the committee to overlook the fact that Russell has accumulated just 45% of the current leader's career numbers in the two major statistical categories and with so many of his contemporaries that are ahead of him, something like league MVP's, multiple Lombardis, and/or SB MVP's, and vote him in on the first ballot. Russell certainly has a lot of time to make up some of that distance, but IMO he's not there yet.

Like you, I'm happy as a pig in slop that he's a Seahawk. It's been a fun ride.

[Hawktawk]

Russ is a first ballot guy whether he gets in or not. As Lynch should as well. Its not just what they did, its how they did it. Russ was the first man in NFL history to throw for 200 and rush for 100 on MNF. First man in history to rush for 100 and pass for 300. First man in history to pass for over 3000 yards and rush for 500 in a season. NFL record 14 TD passes IN THE 4th QUARTER a couple seasons ago. Fastest man to 100 wins vs the 9ers and unfortunately injured the following game. In the top 3 or 4 in TD passes first 10 seasons, led the team in rushing at around 600 yards and accounted for all but one of the teams TDs on the season either running or passing in 2017. a Lombardi. These stats are off the top of my head so if I'm a bit off on my recall I apologize but it think its pretty accurate.

And why the goalposts changed for Russ needing 2 SB wins or whatever? Last I checked Brees went to 1 ,won it and hes first ballot. Marino never won, only made 1. Fouts never got there. You get the point. If Russ quit tomorrow he should be in . First ballot? Maybe not. I fear the end of this brilliant career is sooner than most fans want to accept. The stats dont lie. Nor do the eyes. But what a great QB.

[RiverDog]

Russ is a first ballot guy whether he gets in or not. As Lynch should as well. Its not just what they did, its how they did it. Russ was the first man in NFL history to throw for 200 and rush for 100 on MNF. First man in history to rush for 100 and pass for 300. First man in history to pass for over 3000 yards and rush for 500 in a season. NFL record 14 TD passes IN THE 4th QUARTER a couple seasons ago. Fastest man to 100 wins vs the 9ers and unfortunately injured the following game. In the top 3 or 4 in TD passes first 10 seasons, led the team in rushing at around 600 yards and accounted for all but one of the teams TDs on the season either running or passing in 2017. a Lombardi. These stats are off the top of my head so if I'm a bit off on my recall I apologize but it think its pretty accurate.

And why the goalposts changed for Russ needing 2 SB wins or whatever? Last I checked Brees went to 1 ,won it and hes first ballot. Marino never won, only made 1. Fouts never got there. You get the point. If Russ quit tomorrow he should be in . First ballot? Maybe not. I fear the end of this brilliant career is sooner than most fans want to accept. The stats dont lie. Nor do the eyes. But what a great QB.

Do you honestly think that the HOF committee is going to care about a game played on MNF? That's not a HOF credential, it's the answer to a trivia question.

Beyond that, you make some good points about Russell's being the first dual threat QB of his era that now includes Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, and Josh Allen. But I think it takes a back seat to his lagging career yardage and TD numbers and something that the hall committee looks for to justify an applicant that's on the bubble, sort of like what they did with Tom Flores by noting that he was the first Hispanic head coach, not a qualification for a slam dunk first ballot guy.

As far as the individual awards, MVP's, Lombardis, etc, they can be used to justify a lot of otherwise vanilla careers. I never considered Eli Manning to be the best QB in the game, a prerequisite in my book for HOF consideration, but he does have two Lombari's and 2 SB MVP's. That might be enough to get him in, but I don't think it's first ballot material.

But then again, I'm not on the HOF committee.

[Hawktawk]

You cherry picked one of the records. There are others. The last calendar year hasn't helped but he was at one point the second most accurate passer in history behind A rod. The yards aren't there but his TD to pass radio is also one of the all time best. He led the team to the second most wins in the decade trailing only NE. His game was about deadly efficiency and adding 25-50 yards of timely rushing, few turnovers. I guess we will see. Hopefully I'm around long enough to find out. It would help him to tack on another couple productive years at least but I'm not sure he will. I hope he shows well enough to garner draft capital because I've researched the last calendar year and I think hes in steep decline right now. 10 years in the league and 15 years worth of hits and sacks. It happens to all of them at some point. It doesn't diminish his greatness over 9 straight years.

[RiverDog]

You cherry picked one of the records. There are others. The last calendar year hasn't helped but he was at one point the second most accurate passer in history behind A rod. The yards aren't there but his TD to pass radio is also one of the all time best. He led the team to the second most wins in the decade trailing only NE. His game was about deadly efficiency and adding 25-50 yards of timely rushing, few turnovers. I guess we will see. Hopefully I'm around long enough to find out. It would help him to tack on another couple productive years at least but I'm not sure he will. I hope he shows well enough to garner draft capital because I've researched the last calendar year and I think hes in steep decline right now. 10 years in the league and 15 years worth of hits and sacks. It happens to all of them at some point. It doesn't diminish his greatness over 9 straight years.

Total yardage and touchdowns are "cherry picked" records? My Lord, man, both are the types of records that they stop games for.

[NorthHawk]

Getting into the HoF is in part a popularity contest. How else would Cowher or Bettis get in?

Russ did one thing and that's changed how prospective QBs are looked at.
Prior to his success QB's had to be tall. We had months of discussions on this forum (or the old PI forum) about whether he could be successful being short.
Now we see Kyler Murray who's even shorter going first overall and being in the hunt for MVP for at least part of the season. And other shorter QBs have
gone early as well.
I think that might mean a lot to HoF voters.
As well given the conservative Offense he has to work with, his numbers are pretty good compared to those on more dynamic Offenses. In a pass happy
and creative Offense type league, we are still running an Offense from the 80's (pound the ball and throw for chunk yardage plays). So the same numbers
won't be there as they would in an Andy Reid/Shanahan/McVey type of Offenses.
And I think the voters know that.

[Hawktawk]

Total yardage and touchdowns are "cherry picked" records? My Lord, man, both are the types of records that they stop games for.

I meant the MNF record among the records I listed , not you . Stafford has more yards . Whoop
De do . Russ has 10 more playoff wins in 3 less seasons cause Stafford has none . I find yardage to be the least impressive stat of all. But like you say it’s the HOF committee . Maybe not first ballet if he fades quickly but he’s in .

[I-5]

IMO Russell's resume is a bit thin to be considered a first ballot HOF'er. IMO he needs another Lombardi/SB MVP or a league MVP to make him a slam dunk.

We can argue about resume, but I don't think there is a single NFL coach, player, writer, fan, and especially HOF voter that DOESN'T think Russ will be a first ballot HOF'er. I'd bet my house on it.

[RiverDog]

We can argue about resume, but I don't think there is a single NFL coach, player, writer, fan, and especially HOF voter that DOESN'T think Russ will be a first ballot HOF'er. I'd bet my house on it.

Could be. We're all just guessing.

The HOF has become more and more liberal as to who they let in, and Cowher and Bettis are good examples. Tom Flores and Drew Pearson are also good examples, as is Kenny Stabler. IMO none of those players and coaches are HOF worthy, nor do they have a personality like a Joe Namath or John Madden that would grant them an exception. That liberal attitude would obviously work in Russell's favor. But there's also a team bias factor at work. Players from certain teams, like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Steelers, are more likely to get in, which helps explain those borderline inductions (Flores, Pearson, Bettis, Stabler, Cowher). That bias would work against Russell.

[I-5]

The HOF has become more and more liberal as to who they let in, and Cowher and Bettis are good examples. Tom Flores and Drew Pearson are also good examples, as is Kenny Stabler. IMO none of those players and coaches are HOF worthy, nor do they have a personality like a Joe Namath or John Madden that would grant them an exception. That liberal attitude would obviously work in Russell's favor. But there's also a team bias factor at work. Players from certain teams, like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Steelers, are more likely to get in, which helps explain those borderline inductions (Flores, Pearson, Bettis, Stabler, Cowher). That bias would work against Russell.

Exactly, they're getting more liberal, so why would you mention his resume being a bit thin to be considered as a first ballot HOF'er?

[trents]

I don't call it conspiracy but I think there may be a human tendency on the part of NFL officials to give the benefit of the doubt to the good teams and the good players just like every baseball fan knows that the FHOF pitcher gets the benefit of the doubt on borderline ball or strike calls when facing a rookie hitter.

[RiverDog]

The HOF has become more and more liberal as to who they let in, and Cowher and Bettis are good examples. Tom Flores and Drew Pearson are also good examples, as is Kenny Stabler. IMO none of those players and coaches are HOF worthy, nor do they have a personality like a Joe Namath or John Madden that would grant them an exception. That liberal attitude would obviously work in Russell's favor. But there's also a team bias factor at work. Players from certain teams, like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Steelers, are more likely to get in, which helps explain those borderline inductions (Flores, Pearson, Bettis, Stabler, Cowher). That bias would work against Russell.

Exactly, they're getting more liberal, so why would you mention his resume being a bit thin to be considered as a first ballot HOF'er?

There's a difference between first ballot and eventual admission. None of those I mentioned were admitted on the first ballot.

A lot depends on which players are on the ballot with him when he first becomes eligible. If he's on the ballot with Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Donald, JJ Watt, Travis Kelce, Zach Martin, et al, I'm not sure they'll admit two QB's. And suppose he's up the same year Bobby Wagner is eligible? Can you honestly see them voting two Seahawks in on the first ballot? There's also the question of who might be on the committee at the time the vote is taken. Keep in mind that Russell has received just one vote for league MVP in his entire career, so there may not be a lot of support out there outside of the Northwest. The committee kept Terrell Owens out from first ballot admission simply because they didn't like his behavior.

For all those reasons, I don't think that Russell is a no brainer first ballot selection.

[Aseahawkfan]

Could be. We're all just guessing.

The HOF has become more and more liberal as to who they let in, and Cowher and Bettis are good examples. Tom Flores and Drew Pearson are also good examples, as is Kenny Stabler. IMO none of those players and coaches are HOF worthy, nor do they have a personality like a Joe Namath or John Madden that would grant them an exception. That liberal attitude would obviously work in Russell's favor. But there's also a team bias factor at work. Players from certain teams, like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Steelers, are more likely to get in, which helps explain those borderline inductions (Flores, Pearson, Bettis, Stabler, Cowher). That bias would work against Russell.

What do you mean? A lot of players even in the less liberal Hall of Fame don't deserve to be there. Troy Aikman wasn't a great QB. Stats are terrible. Terry Bradshaw wasn't a very good Qb either.

Russ has better stats than a lot of QBs. He is the greatest QB at his height in NFL history. Prior to Russell Wilson, they didn't even think someone his height could be a successful NFL QB.

Until this year, he never missed a game. He took a team that had never won a Super Bowl to a Super Bowl victory. Even with that great defense, we weren't getting in Super Bowl distance until we had that QB. He went what? 9 years without a losing season until this year.

And his career isn't over or close to it.

[RiverDog]

What do you mean? A lot of players even in the less liberal Hall of Fame don't deserve to be there. Troy Aikman wasn't a great QB. Stats are terrible. Terry Bradshaw wasn't a very good Qb either.

Russ has better stats than a lot of QBs. He is the greatest QB at his height in NFL history. Prior to Russell Wilson, they didn't even think someone his height could be a successful NFL QB.

Until this year, he never missed a game. He took a team that had never won a Super Bowl to a Super Bowl victory. Even with that great defense, we weren't getting in Super Bowl distance until we had that QB. He went what? 9 years without a losing season until this year.

And his career isn't over or close to it.

The issue isn't whether or not Russell eventually gains admission, nor does it have to do with what happens 5 years from now. What I am saying is that if Russell's his career were to end today, I do not think he is a slam dunk first ballot HOF'er, and you can read part of my reasoning in my reply to I-5.

[Hawktawk]

Completely agree with Asea other than the part about his career not being over or close to it. We can’t say for sure about that . The guy I’m watching this year will not be a starter in the league if next year is like this . And if that were the case first ballot is not happening . Hof happens if he quits at seasons end

[Aseahawkfan]

Completely agree with Asea other than the part about his career not being over or close to it. We can’t say for sure about that . The guy I’m watching this year will not be a starter in the league if next year is like this . And if that were the case first ballot is not happening . Hof happens if he quits at seasons end

Gentleman's bet Russ is far from done. He has another 5 years in him.

I think Pete gotta go. Pete doesn't have the hunger or vision any longer. He wants to get back to that feeling of the Super Bowl win. He don't want to admit he and John have missed on too many picks, lost too many good coaches, and don't have the pieces to do what Pete wants to do because of failed picks.

Pete wants to run. He hasn't drafted a quality RB to replace Marshawn Lynch.

Pete wants to shutdown the pass game and hasn't drafted a quality pass rusher or top flight CB since his first years here.

The only area of drafting they dramatically improved at his drafting a WR. But right now Pete and John have to look in the mirror and be honest about all the missed O-line picks, D-line picks, secondary picks, and RB picks. They spent a lot of draft capital at the RB position and whiffed again and again and again. Same with O-line and same with D-line. If you are missing year after year after year at key positions like that, this is where you end up no matter how good your QB is.

[I-5]

There's a difference between first ballot and eventual admission. None of those I mentioned were admitted on the first ballot.

A lot depends on which players are on the ballot with him when he first becomes eligible. If he's on the ballot with Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Donald, JJ Watt, Travis Kelce, Zach Martin, et al, I'm not sure they'll admit two QB's. And suppose he's up the same year Bobby Wagner is eligible? Can you honestly see them voting two Seahawks in on the first ballot? There's also the question of who might be on the committee at the time the vote is taken. Keep in mind that Russell has received just one vote for league MVP in his entire career, so there may not be a lot of support out there outside of the Northwest. The committee kept Terrell Owens out from first ballot admission simply because they didn't like his behavior.

For all those reasons, I don't think that Russell is a no brainer first ballot selection.

That’s why I said ‘first ballot’. I don’t mean eventual HOF’er. There’s no way I see him NOT going in the first time. That’s what I would bet my house on.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="Aseahawkfan"]

Gentleman's bet Russ is far from done.
I don’t want to bet against Russ but I said I’ll not bet on him . So I’ll take the gentleman’s wager . I fear he is in steep decline at this point . He will no longer be a starter in 5 years and I fear much less .The quickness is lessened . The finger is either not healed or it’s damaged . He pulled the pin 3 weeks early . It’s entirely possible he set it back coming back so soon but right now he’s bad throwing the ball. He’s mentally disengaged , just not putting it on the line anymore imo as evidenced by his refusal to run Tuesday .

A big problem for Russ is he’s never changed how he plays . As his wheels diminish he has to . He always has run around , some of his greatest throws were scramble drills . He’s just not as quick and in the last 6 games he’s not been accurate on critical plays after an 11-29 pick 6 debacle in the last playoff game we will see for a while .


So be honest Asea do you see what I and many fans and analysts see? Do you see a dip? Bad situation ? Do you think a new coach is going to help ? A change of scenery ? A few years ago I’d have agreed he would play 15 years but right now he’s at best a middle of the pack hack with the worst 3rd down completion in the league behind Trevor Lawrence and every other rookie . Then we complain about time of possession . A couple names come to mind
The most prominent is Cam Newton . Andy Dalton , not in the same level but a very good starter . Joe flacco . Andrew Luck retired . Not everyone holds up 15 years physically, mentally , has the courage to take blindside hits .

Meanwhile watch “bust “ tannehill feed his version of DK Brown 11 accurate balls for over 140 yards and 2 touches, Also burning the 9ers badly with his feet in a thrilling comeback . They have no backs . Their line is wiped out . Brown is their only big time receiver. 10-4 now .That’s who Russ was but isn’t . It’s not the roster . 35 million guys aren’t there to compete . They are there to win games . I wish to be wrong badly . Happy to lose the bet .