Drafting Offensive Linemen

[RiverDog]

With nothing better to do, I decided to do little research and took a look at our recent draft choices as it applies to offensive linemen. Going backwards from 2021, here are the linemen we drafted with the round we selected them in parathesis:

2021 Stone Forsythe (6)
2020 Damien Lewis (3)
2019 Phil Haynes (4)
2018 Jamarco Jones (5)
2017 Ethan Pocic (2), Justin Senior (7)
2016 Germain Ifedi (1), Rees Odhiambo (3), Joey Hunt (6)
2015 Terry Poole (4), Mark Glowinski (4)
2014 Justin Britt (2), Garrett Scott (6)

In the 4 years from 2014-17, we drafted nine offensive linemen, including 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders. In the following 4 years, from 2018-21, we drafted 4 offensive linemen, with the highest being a 3rd rounder.

In each of the four earlier years, we drafted multiple offensive linemen, including 3 in 2016, while in the past 4 years we haven't had any drafts with multiple big uglies.

The average round for offensive linemen selected (add up the rounds for each player and divide by the number of players drafted) from 2014-17 was 3.9. From 2018-21 that average was 4.5.

Since 2018, we've drafted more wide receivers (5) than we have offensive linemen (4).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm

It's pretty apparent to me that Pete has been neglecting the offensive line. No wonder Russell's been complaining.

[obiken]

It's pretty apparent to me that Pete has been neglecting the offensive line. No wonder Russell's been complaining.

You think!!

[trents]

Do your stats take into account the number of draft picks management had to work with and how high or low they were in given years as well as the variability from year to year of available talent at different positions? Some years the pickings are slim for O linemen but there may be an abundance of WR talent. Some years, Pete and John have traded away draft picks to meet pressing immediate needs.

[tarlhawk]

I know I have covered this before but my own thoughts are based on the recent 5 years of College Football...unless you are picking with a top 10...maybe top 20 OL guy from the first round...the OL value has dropped considerably for College Ball supplying Pass Pro ready linemen.

Too many gimmick...defense overloading multi receiver offenses make it hard for scouting to get a real feel for spending high draft capital for Pass Pro ready linemen. With an elite QB like RW the safer draft picks for Run Blocking Road graders are mostly a waste since our offense isn't as run heavy as our coaching might want nor has our RB stable been able to stay healthy. Our support runners stay healthy somewhat...DJ Dallas (Kick Returns) and Travis Homer (3rd down pass protector/occasional RB draw choice) but our feature backs (Carson/Penny/Collins) not holding up so well.

Our team has gambled on 4th and 5th round for choosing a Pass Pro Type who can be coached up...making Free Agents with demonstrated Pass Pro skills (D.Brown/G. Jackson) a bit more expensive but providing immediate Pass Protection. RW's deep route passes take longer to develop so Pass Pro blocks need sustained longer (Choosing between holding/releasing rushers more common) Its a catch-22 with RW staying in pocket releasing quicker on shorter routes or RW scrambling holding release longer to develop longer routes.

Roll-outs utilizing play action has been a "good friend" for RW but a respected running game is needed to draw the Strong Safety into the box vice playing 2 high safety schemes. The offensive line problems are inherant with the offense we use...based on College Football currently the WR's are a safer higher pick choice.

[obiken]

I know I have covered this before but my own thoughts are based on the recent 5 years of College Football...unless you are picking with a top 10...maybe top 20 OL guy from the first round...the OL value has dropped considerably for College Ball supplying Pass Pro ready linemen.

Too many gimmick...defense overloading multi receiver offenses make it hard for scouting to get a real feel for spending high draft capital for Pass Pro ready linemen. With an elite QB like RW the safer draft picks for Run Blocking Road graders are mostly a waste since our offense isn't as run heavy as our coaching might want nor has our RB stable been able to stay healthy. Our support runners stay healthy somewhat...DJ Dallas (Kick Returns) and Travis Homer (3rd down pass protector/occasional RB draw choice) but our feature backs (Carson/Penny/Collins) not holding up so well.

Where does Bill get them?

[RiverDog]

Do your stats take into account the number of draft picks management had to work with and how high or low they were in given years as well as the variability from year to year of available talent at different positions? Some years the pickings are slim for O linemen but there may be an abundance of WR talent. Some years, Pete and John have traded away draft picks to meet pressing immediate needs.

No, they don't. All I did was note the draftee and the round they were taken in. It would have been far more complicated to add in some of the factors you're talking about.

It's not completely accurate as there were years that we met our needs through free agency rather than the draft, that it doesn't take into account things like variances in longevity (linemen have longer careers than wide receivers), and I haven't compared it with other team's draft selections, although that wouldn't be hard to do.

But I do think it's a good illustration of our brain trusts lack of effort at improving what nearly everyone agrees on has been a major weakness on this team for years, ie the offensive line.

[RiverDog]

I know I have covered this before but my own thoughts are based on the recent 5 years of College Football...unless you are picking with a top 10...maybe top 20 OL guy from the first round...the OL value has dropped considerably for College Ball supplying Pass Pro ready linemen.

Too many gimmick...defense overloading multi receiver offenses make it hard for scouting to get a real feel for spending high draft capital for Pass Pro ready linemen. With an elite QB like RW the safer draft picks for Run Blocking Road graders are mostly a waste since our offense isn't as run heavy as our coaching might want nor has our RB stable been able to stay healthy. Our support runners stay healthy somewhat...DJ Dallas (Kick Returns) and Travis Homer (3rd down pass protector/occasional RB draw choice) but our feature backs (Carson/Penny/Collins) not holding up so well.

Our team has gambled on 4th and 5th round for choosing a Pass Pro Type who can be coached up...making Free Agents with demonstrated Pass Pro skills (D.Brown/G. Jackson) a bit more expensive but providing immediate Pass Protection. RW's deep route passes take longer to develop so Pass Pro blocks need sustained longer (Choosing between holding/releasing rushers more common) Its a catch-22 with RW staying in pocket releasing quicker on shorter routes or RW scrambling holding release longer to develop longer routes.

Roll-outs utilizing play action has been a "good friend" for RW but a respected running game is needed to draw the Strong Safety into the box vice playing 2 high safety schemes. The offensive line problems are inherant with the offense we use...based on College Football currently the WR's are a safer higher pick choice.

I'm not sure which position is the more difficult to evaluate, or in other words, which one has the highest "bust" potential. The advantage that offensive linemen have over other positions is that there are 3 positions along the OL that a player can be moved to if they don't work out at the position they were drafted at. James Carpenter is a classic example, as he was a complete and utter flop at tackle but considerably less so at guard. Same thing with Justin Britt, drafted at tackle but eventually settled in at center.

But there's advantages that WR's have over linemen, such as their use on special teams, and linemen come a little cheaper in free agency than skill positions.

Like I mentioned above, I realize that my analysis is nothing more than a bunch of scribble marks on the back of a napkin, but I do think it was a pretty interesting demonstration and would encourage others to do a little homework of their own if they have a competing message they'd like to illustrate.

[NorthHawk]

Teams build their OL's through the middle rounds of the draft. Sometimes they get lucky at the end of R1, and the best LT's are often
found near the top of the draft, but there are a ton of busts in the early 1st round, too. LT is probably the hardest to find and I think
it's why we see Duane Brown, Andrew Whitworth, Jason Peters, and others playing well into their late 30's or sometimes 40's. But
we've not shown to be able to find interior OL with the exception of Lewis in all the time Pete and John have been here. We've had
some players who did OK and we've developed some players that went on to success with other teams that had/have better OL's than
us, but for the most part we've done a very poor job of identifying, developing, and keeping good OL over the last 10 years. We've
also passed by some very good OL in favor of other players and there might be reason to believe that during the Cable years we would
have ruined the careers of otherwise good players on other teams, but we've had a largely poor record of developing young players
along the OL. And that's no way to build a championship team.

[tarlhawk]

(analysis provided by a Tim Riske tweet)

Getting back to one of the metrics listed above, in particular ESPN’s PBWR(Pass Block/Rush Win Rate), many fans have noted that the Seahawks line - in spite of being among the worst in the league at surrendering instant pressure, seemed to hold up for longer periods of time better than in the past. There are a handful of reasons that contributed to that, including Wilson developing better pocket presence than in years past, but there is one big reason, and it won’t likely change anytime soon, or at least as long as Solari remains as the offensive line coach.

First, however, let’s look at the data that shows that the Hawks line is indeed below average in the first 2.75 or so seconds after the snap and above average once that 2.75 second threshold is reached. The following is a tweet sent by the aforementioned Timo Riske which looks at offensive line success for every team in terms of a survival curve against time passed after the snap.

Specifically, this involves getting into technique. The eyes of most fans will glaze over when discussions turn to the specifics of offensive line play and technique, so this will stay extremely high level and I’ll keep it the Reader’s Digest version. So, before I jump into the explanation of why this survival curve makes sense given the technique Seattle offensive linemen use, let me explain very basic differences between a couple of different pass blocking techniques.

There are, of course, various techniques that can be used when pass blocking, but I’m only going to focus on two. The first is Indepdendent Hands, and the second is Two Hand Punch. The names imply basically what the differences are, but here are some visuals just to help with the understanding.
First, Independent Hands is, as the name implies, a technique wherein an offensive linemen engages the defender with his outside hand first, then uses the inside hand. The outside hand first lands a less forceful punch and the lineman then maintains contact. This hand on the defender helps maintain range as a second, more forceful, punch is then delivered with the inside hand.

The reason it’s a mirror image is that as the technique calls for the use of the outside hand first, then inside hand, when flipping sides linemen must flip the order in which they punch the defenders.

Now, the second technique I’ll talk about, as noted, is the Two Hand Punch. This entails, exactly as it sounds, using both hands at the same time on the defensive player. This is what the Seahawks do, so here are three clips that show this. In particular, Mike Iupati in the third clip is a fantastic visual example of both hands being used at the same time to jolt and control the defender.

So, with the difference between the two techniques laid out, let’s get to why the survival chart for the Seahawks makes sense.
For starters, it’s obviously easier for an offensive lineman to put his hands on a defender if he’s only using one hand because it’s possible to stretch further with just one arm than with both. That translates to a greater reach and range for linemen using independent hands, and then once that first hand is in place it allows for greater accuracy with the second punch. Obviously, however, two quick one-handed punches will not be as powerful as one punch with two hands.

And that’s the advantage of the Two Hand Punch technique. There’s no question that if a 330 or 340 pound lineman like Iupati, D.J. Fluker or Germain Ifedi lands a hand on you, you’re going to feel it. However, one of those were to land both hands simultaneously, it’s game over. This is exactly what we see with the Seattle offensive line.
we all remember Jamarco Jones holding off Aaron Donald with one arm while looking for someone else to block after the Seahawks win over the Los Angeles Rams in Week 5. Well, it becomes a different story when we watch from the end zone angle of the coaches film and see that Donald hops right around Jones, but is met with a two hand punch from 6’6” 315 pound center Justin Britt.

And that’s the thing, when the two hand punch lands, that’s it. Game over. That’s all she wrote. Period, the end. Even against an All Pro pass rusher like Aaron Donald, when a two-handed punch lands squarely, that pass blocking battle is typically over. Very few front seven defensive players are going to be able to do much of anything if a two handed punch lands squarely from an offensive lineman the size of Fluker or Ifedi. However, because the range when trying to initiate contact with both hands simultaneously is, of course, shorter, it’s more difficult than landing one hand first and then the other.

Therein lies the trade off. The Seahawks use the two handed technique, presumably for a couple of reasons. First of all, it fits with their identity and mindset. They want to out hit and out physical the opponent, and two hands simultaneously are more powerful and more physical than one hand at a time. Effectively, it’s the body blow methodology of pass blocking.

Beyond that, when two hand punches land squarely, that’s what gives offensive linemen the best ability to take control of a rushing defender and to buy as much time as possible for the quarterback. Basically, if you’re looking to create a pocket quickly and then maintain that pocket as long as possible, the Two Hand Punch technique is likely the choice.

The downside of using the technique, however, is that because it requires the use of both hands at the same time, it’s going to have a higher failure rate than Independent Hands. That is what leads to the whiffs, the high amount of instant pressure and metrics such as PBWR coming in poorly for the Hawks, in spite of the fact that it is readily visible that the Hawks were above average for much of the period of time past 2.7-2.8 seconds.

What it comes down to is that the Seahawks use a high-risk, high-reward style of pass blocking. When it works, it’s glorious and can control defenders and protect Russ for several seconds. When the two handed punch fails to land, however, is when things quickly get ugly. Pressure often comes quickly because the block attempt becomes a whiff rather than a block.

Getting back to why the coaching staff chooses to use this technique, it’s likely because Wilson tends to hold the ball for a very long time. While other quarterbacks who held the ball for as long or longer than Wilson in previous seasons, such as Josh Allen and Deshaun Watson, have adjusted their game to get the ball out quicker, Wilson remained far closer to the slowest quarterbacks in 2019 than the fastest. At this point that appears to be a trait of the way Wilson plays quarterback, and it seems likely that as long as Wilson continues to hold the ball, the Seahawks will continue to employ a pass blocking technique designed to give him a clean pocket for as long as possible.

Basically, the trade off Solari and the rest of the coaching staff is making is whether to have an increase in instant pressure in exchange for the peace of mind of knowing that if a pocket forms, it’s more likely to stay formed. The technique, in effect, shifts pressure from later in the down to earlier in the down by pushing the fail point to earlier in the down after the snap.

Thus, we can talk about Solari coaching a line that has allowed Wilson to become the second most sacked quarterback in the NFL over the past two seasons, but no discussion about Solari and the job he’s doing would be complete without discussing the way and the why about how he’s doing it. (analysis provided by a Tim Riske tweet)

Nicely put explanation IMO.

[RiverDog]

That's a great analysis and I'm glad that you shared it, but it doesn't have a lot to do with the de-prioritization of the offensive line as in the OP.

However, now that you've brought up the subject, I'll add that our offensive line hasn't performed all that badly over the past couple seasons, at least not as bad as some would make it out to be. Last season, PFF had us ranked smack dab in the middle of the pack in both pass pro as well as run blocking, quite a bit different than the narratives that were being advanced. This season, the latest ranking I've seen was as of 3 or so weeks ago and they had us pegged as 23rd. IMO that's a tribute to Mike Solari's coaching, that he's been able to do what he has with the meager peanuts that Pete's been tossing him.

Nevertheless, it is still a major weakness that needs to be improved.

[tarlhawk]

Obiken

Where does Bill get them?

Every standard has exceptions...Bill and his staff/scouts should be commended as the exception...but no reason to hold us to their exception (perhaps envy at first but healthier to turn envy into acceptance).

[tarlhawk]

That's a great analysis and I'm glad that you shared it, but it doesn't have a lot to do with the de-prioritization of the offensive line as in the OP.

However, now that you've brought up the subject, I'll add that our offensive line hasn't performed all that badly over the past couple seasons, at least not as bad as some would make it out to be. Last season, PFF had us ranked smack dab in the middle of the pack in both pass pro as well as run blocking, quite a bit different than the narratives that were being advanced. This season, the latest ranking I've seen was as of 3 or so weeks ago and they had us pegged as 23rd. IMO that's a tribute to Mike Solari's coaching, that he's been able to do what he has with the meager peanuts that Pete's been tossing him.

Nevertheless, it is still a major weakness that needs to be improved.

I answered the original post further up while using the analysis from Tim Riske to show why our offensive line seems to "bust protection" but isn't really a result of having very poor individuals drafted or picked up in free agency. My own guess is that College Football utilizes the independent hands technique a lot since blocks don't need sustained but need accuracy for quicker pass protection. Our line will excel only as far as Mike Solari can take them. RW may complain about the instant pressure but his style of play is partly the need for Solari employing the two-hand technique.

[RiverDog]

I answered the original post further up while using the analysis from Tim Riske to show why our offensive line seems to "bust protection" but isn't really a result of having very poor individuals drafted or picked up in free agency. My own guess is that College Football utilizes the independent hands technique a lot since blocks don't need sustained but need accuracy for quicker pass protection. Our line will excel only as far as Mike Solari can take them. RW may complain about the instant pressure but his style of play is partly the need for Solari employing the two-hand technique.

I understand the logic that you're presenting. The differences between how colleges procure offensive linemen and how they're used in the NFL has been discussed in this forum on many occasions, with North Hawk having done the best job out of our little group of articulating it. However, it doesn't change the fact that we under value offensive linemen relative to other positions as evidenced by our draft results.

Later on, I'll go back and compare a couple of other teams using the same information I've used with the Hawks.

[tarlhawk]

Teams build their OL's through the middle rounds of the draft. Sometimes they get lucky at the end of R1, and the best LT's are often
found near the top of the draft, but there are a ton of busts in the early 1st round, too. LT is probably the hardest to find and I think
it's why we see Duane Brown, Andrew Whitworth, Jason Peters, and others playing well into their late 30's or sometimes 40's. But
we've not shown to be able to find interior OL with the exception of Lewis in all the time Pete and John have been here. We've had
some players who did OK and we've developed some players that went on to success with other teams that had/have better OL's than
us, but for the most part we've done a very poor job of identifying, developing, and keeping good OL over the last 10 years. We've
also passed by some very good OL in favor of other players and there might be reason to believe that during the Cable years we would
have ruined the careers of otherwise good players on other teams, but we've had a largely poor record of developing young players
along the OL. And that's no way to build a championship team.

Excellent analysis ...our line/play development has been much improved with Mike Solari's arrival in 2018. Our high draft choices Justin Britt/Germain Ifedi/ Ethan Pocic reflect the slow stab/development of Guard/Right Tackle/future Left Tackle (Ifedi) and (Britt as an attempt to help the loss of Max Unger). Our other center (Pocic) was for interior depth at Guard/Center. These three tried to excel under Tom Cable's "zone blocking" and Ifedi thrust into blocking with very limited aid from our strong side tight end (J. Grahm). Middle round "bargains" (Mark Glowinski/Rees Odhiambo/Joey Hunt/Jamarco Jones/Phil Haynes and Damien Lewis) were a mix bag. Damien Lewis over performed while Phil Haynes has under performed. Jamarco Jones has been a mixed bag of flex back-up roles. Mike Solari only arrived in 2018 so we now have the coaching to develop our more recent draft choices. 2022 draft picks should/could be high up from the 2nd round down...so opportunities should be better!

[obiken]

I understand the logic that you're presenting. The differences between how colleges procure offensive linemen and how they're used in the NFL has been discussed in this forum on many occasions, with North Hawk having done the best job out of our little group of articulating it. However, it doesn't change the fact that we under value offensive linemen relative to other positions as evidenced by our draft results.

Later on, I'll go back and compare a couple of other teams using the same information I've used with the Hawks.

Where does Belichick get them?

[NorthHawk]

Belechick and his staff just does a better job of identifying who can play in their system.
We seem to have put athleticism ahead of playing ability in selecting OL with Ifedi being
one of the best examples. They also have kept their OL’s together longer than we have.
They also had a real unsung hero as an OL coach in Dante Scarnecchia who I think has
now retired but most of their current OL have been in their system for more than a
few years, so they already know how to work together.

[Hawktawk]

That's a great analysis and I'm glad that you shared it, but it doesn't have a lot to do with the de-prioritization of the offensive line as in the OP.

However, now that you've brought up the subject, I'll add that our offensive line hasn't performed all that badly over the past couple seasons, at least not as bad as some would make it out to be. Last season, PFF had us ranked smack dab in the middle of the pack in both pass pro as well as run blocking, quite a bit different than the narratives that were being advanced. This season, the latest ranking I've seen was as of 3 or so weeks ago and they had us pegged as 23rd. IMO that's a tribute to Mike Solari's coaching, that he's been able to do what he has with the meager peanuts that Pete's been tossing him.

Nevertheless, it is still a major weakness that needs to be improved.

As you say it’s mid pack yet Russ had more sacks than anyone in the league last ten years and we weren’t the worst line all those years . For his HOF greatness Russ bailing on plays and spinning out every which way makes it hard on a line . We are also riddled with injuries . If healthy this isn’t a terrible line . Tired of hearing them blamed all the time . When you have a 10 million a year coach and 30 million dollar QB you should win and not make excuses . As for spending high capital on linemen they may as well have considering who they picked . But great coaches and qbs overcome deficiencies in the line or wherever . We used to .

[tarlhawk]

Belechick and his staff just does a better job of identifying who can play in their system.
We seem to have put athleticism ahead of playing ability in selecting OL with Ifedi being
one of the best examples. They also have kept their OL’s together longer than we have.
They also had a real unsung hero as an OL coach in Dante Scarnecchia who I think has
now retired but most of their current OL have been in their system for more than a
few years, so they already know how to work together.

The Patriots and their coach in particular are often admired but seldom a template easily followed. To lose Tom Brady and strike pay dirt with an incredible QB find...especially in the mine field known as first round QB's (#15)...says a lot for their spot-on scouting. They'll reap the benefits of having an elite prospect at QB with his 4-year rookie contract. (4 years at a total cap hit of $15 1/2 million). Our choosing of athletic linemen was a Cable influence for his zone-blocking desires.

Your observations on what it takes to make a great line are spot-on. We need an O-Line worthy of 2nd term contracts and avoid our injury curse once we have such players. Strong drafts yield "cheap" starters who excel making them good trade material or worthy investments for a second contract.

[RiverDog]

As you say it’s mid pack yet Russ had more sacks than anyone in the league last ten years and we weren’t the worst line all those years . For his HOF greatness Russ bailing on plays and spinning out every which way makes it hard on a line . We are also riddled with injuries . If healthy this isn’t a terrible line . Tired of hearing them blamed all the time . When you have a 10 million a year coach and 30 million dollar QB you should win and not make excuses . As for spending high capital on linemen they may as well have considering who they picked . But great coaches and qbs overcome deficiencies in the line or wherever . We used to .

I sort of fall in the middle of this debate. Our line isn't dog meat and as you say, Russell is an extremely difficult quarterback to block for. However, they can be improved. Did you watch that Minnesota-Pittsburgh game last Thursday and see some of the holes those guys were opening for an injured running back? Middle of the road isn't good enough. Unless we have a top 5 D, we're going to need a top 10 OL, especially as our quarterback ages and is no longer able to extend plays.

I haven't seen any current PFF rankings, but I saw one about a month ago that had us ranked 23rd, or roughly bottom third. That's not near good enough. Especially with Duane Brown approaching the end of his career, we need to start making a bigger investment in the OL.

[Hawktawk]

Dalvin Cook doesn’t need much of a hole . And our offensive scheme and our trigger man is so herky jerky there’s no rythm to get a run game going . Protection schemes are stupid too such as assigning Travis Homer to block Chandler Jones one on one results were predictable .
It’s not a good line but it’s not a 4-8 line and I’m tired of hearing about someone getting hit too much when they are taking some of the worst most preventable sacks of any time in their career .

As I’ve said when we lined up against the Rams in the playoffs PC proclaimed our team to be as heathy as all year . That included our #15 line . As Russ was going 11-29 with a pick 6 with Donald out half the game Mayfield was carving up Pittsburgh at Heinz Field with a left tackle he met in the locker room before the game .

Yeah the line needs improvement but I’m tired of hearing it’s the line . Franchise Qbs and rock star coaches should make it work. Washington beat us with a backup qb and finished the game on their 4th center of the year . Tired of hearing when we win it’s Russ and when we lose it’s the line .

[RiverDog]

Dalvin Cook doesn’t need much of a hole . And our offensive scheme and our trigger man is so herky jerky there’s no rythm to get a run game going . Protection schemes are stupid too such as assigning Travis Homer to block Chandler Jones one on one results were predictable .
It’s not a good line but it’s not a 4-8 line and I’m tired of hearing about someone getting hit too much when they are taking some of the worst most preventable sacks of any time in their career .

As I’ve said when we lined up against the Rams in the playoffs PC proclaimed our team to be as heathy as all year . That included our #15 line . As Russ was going 11-29 with a pick 6 with Donald out half the game Mayfield was carving up Pittsburgh at Heinz Field with a left tackle he met in the locker room before the game .

Yeah the line needs improvement but I’m tired of hearing it’s the line . Franchise Qbs and rock star coaches should make it work. Washington beat us with a backup qb and finished the game on their 4th center of the year . Tired of hearing when we win it’s Russ and when we lose it’s the line .

Tired of hearing about someone getting hit too much? He said that once, about 8 months ago. I'm as much of a Russell critic as anyone else in this forum, but I think you're going a little over the top in your criticisms.

The offensive line needs to improve. It's ranked in the bottom third to bottom quarter of the league this season and we're going to be losing our most important piece very soon. If we're going to rebuild this team, which seems inevitable, it needs to start up front. We're not dedicating sufficient resources to it.

[NorthHawk]

I've simply resigned myself to the idea that our FO can't identify OL talent - or at least OL talent that fits what we do.
Maybe it's because they undervalue the OL, maybe it's not giving the scouting staff the information as to what they
want, maybe the scouting staff isn't very good, or maybe it's a combination. The bottom line is they haven't done
a very good job of drafting players that fit our system and they still haven't found a solid Center all these years after
trading Unger for Graham. Not a Pro Bowl Center, but just haven't found a solid, competent Center that is steady.
Apparently that's beyond their abilities.

[NorthHawk]

The Patriots and their coach in particular are often admired but seldom a template easily followed. To lose Tom Brady and strike pay dirt with an incredible QB find...especially in the mine field known as first round QB's (#15)...says a lot for their spot-on scouting. They'll reap the benefits of having an elite prospect at QB with his 4-year rookie contract. (4 years at a total cap hit of $15 1/2 million). Our choosing of athletic linemen was a Cable influence for his zone-blocking desires.

It's a rarity indeed. But they got really lucky that Mac Jones was still there when their draft slot came up. For months it was reported that Shanahan wanted him in SF, but at the
last moment he took Lance who was arguably a big reach considered he hadn't played more than 1 game in 18 months or thereabouts. Jones also fits into Shanahan's QB type of
player who executes very well what is called and doesn't stray from the game plan. Lance may have some good upside, but whether he can be successful in the NFL is unknown
considering his lack of experience. In the long term he may turn out to be the better pick, but for team fit, Jones is perfect in NE - and they were real lucky he was there.

[RiverDog]

I've simply resigned myself to the idea that our FO can't identify OL talent - or at least OL talent that fits what we do.
Maybe it's because they undervalue the OL, maybe it's not giving the scouting staff the information as to what they
want, maybe the scouting staff isn't very good, or maybe it's a combination. The bottom line is they haven't done
a very good job of drafting players that fit our system and they still haven't found a solid Center all these years after
trading Unger for Graham. Not a Pro Bowl Center, but just haven't found a solid, competent Center that is steady.
Apparently that's beyond their abilities.

It was certainly that way when Cable was our OL coach, but now that we have Mike Solari, that may have changed. But since Pete hasn't given him much in the way of draft capital or FA acquisitions to work with, we really don't know if its improved or not.

In 4 years since Solari has been our OL coach, we've only drafted 4 OL's, with the highest draft pick he's given him was a 3rd rounder, and he seems to have done pretty well with that pick. In the 4 previous years, Pete gave Cable 9 draft picks, including a 1st and 2nd rounder.

[NorthHawk]

Which suggests they've either largely given up on getting a good OL or they don't put much importance in it.

[Hawktawk]

The line looked ok yesterday . Amazing when the qb is sharp and the running back hits an NFL size hole how good the line works .

[NorthHawk]

The line looked ok yesterday . Amazing when the qb is sharp and the running back hits an NFL size hole how good the line works .

They went to a Jumbo package which is something they may want to do more of. It really opened up some good holes, but we will see what happens against a
better team next week.

[Hawktawk]

I love Jumbo . All these spread out 3 and 4 wideout sets don’t lead to running well and don’t really protect the qb. With the type of deep ball Russ throws routinely I’m not sure why we don’t do more max protect and run a 1 or 2 receiver route and let a guy like DK or Lock win . Very few teams can succeed if they can’t run or their ability gets laid out all the time

[obiken]

In 4 years since Solari has been our OL coach, we've only drafted 4 OL's, with the highest draft pick he's given him was a 3rd rounder, and he seems to have done pretty well with that pick. In the 4 previous years, Pete gave Cable 9 draft picks, including a 1st and 2nd rounder.

What do you think River, should we have Lineman farms/camps like the English premier league? You sign a kid at 16 put him under a great coach, bulk him up, train him and then at 18 put him on the taxi squad. The problem with my idea, the Union!

[RiverDog]

What do you think River, should we have Lineman farms/camps like the English premier league? You sign a kid at 16 put him under a great coach, bulk him up, train him and then at 18 put him on the taxi squad. The problem with my idea, the Union!

Yeah, I don't think that one's going to fly.

[tarlhawk]

If our GM John Schneider can hit on all six of our picks in 2022...like he did with only three picks in 2021...our team will regain some of its lost talent. All 6 picks should be high up in each round they get selected since we struggled winning this year ...and well any pick (our extra 4th) from the NY Jets has remained high.

No draft crystal balls exist but perhaps a 3rd and one of our 4th RD picks could be used on a Tackle and/or a Center depending on who's available in free agency. Two CB (4th and 5th RD Picks?) would stabilize our secondary. A 2nd round Edge/DE and perhaps a 7th round QB pick to give Geno some competition if Bledsoe isn't enough. If the cap gets increased (NFL needs to deal with new Covid impact) then look for a few splashes in free agency...once we extend a few contracts of our own. Both TE (Dissly/Everett)...both CB's (DJ Reed/S. Jones)...and of course Quandre Diggs as our FS. Others like Al Woods/Rasheem Green and Brandon Shell might be cap hits.

An exclusive rights free agent (ERFA) is a veteran player with less than three accrued NFL seasons. An ERFA is limited to either signing the contract tendered to him by his current team, or not playing in the NFL that season. If a team chooses not to tender a contract to an ERFA, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. We have a bunch : S/CB Ryan Neal/John Reid/Nigel Warrior and Tanner Muse. LB Jon Rattigan/DT Bryan Mone/C Dakota Shepley and WR Penny Hart.

A restricted free agent (RFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with three accrued seasons but not four accrued seasons of service. (Under certain restrictions, any NFL player with three accrued seasons shall be free to negotiate and sign a contract with any other NFL club). We have three : CB Bliss Austin and two Backup O-Line G Phil Haynes and C/G Kyle Fuller.

Unlike in the NBA or MLB, players’ contracts in the NFL aren’t guaranteed by default. Typically, an NFL player will receive at least some guaranteed money when he signs a deal, but that money often comes in the form of contract bonuses, and in particular signing bonuses.

Void years are dummy contract years that do not truly exist, as in the player is not actually under contract for those seasons. They serve as a placeholder for prorated money (When a player signs a contract that includes a signing bonus, that portion is prorated over the length of the contract for salary cap purposes. Since players who are opting out will have their contracts toll, the prorated portion of those bonuses will move along with the contract, instead of being counted this season. Because a team can prorate money up to a maximum of five years, if the player’s current contract only had three years remaining, the team may seek to add void years onto the end of the deal to make the prorated bonus amounts even smaller. We have four such guys : LT Duane Brown (Cap Hit in 2021: 9.9 Million) C Ethan Pocic (Cap Hit in 2021:2 Million) TE Gerald Everette (Cap Hit in 2021: 4 Million) and FS Quandre Diggs (Cap Hit in 2021: 3.6 Million)...as players they are not bound by void contracts so if we don't sign them to extended contracts...they will be Unrestricted Free Agents.

An unrestricted free agent (UFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with four or more accrued seasons of service. An unrestricted free agent will be completely free to sign with another team, unless they were given the one-year franchise/transition tag by their team. We have the four above with Void years and the following as UFA players : RT Brandon Shell (Age 29)/ DT Al Woods (Age 34)/ CB Sidney Jones (Age 25)/ DT Rasheem Green (Age 24)/ TE Will Dissly (Age 25)/ QB Geno Smith (Age 31) and CB DJ Reed (Age 25).

[RiverDog]

If our GM John Schneider can hit on all six of our picks in 2022...like he did with only three picks in 2021...our team will regain some of its lost talent. All 6 picks should be high up in each round they get selected since we struggled winning this year ...and well any pick (our extra 4th) from the NY Jets has remained high.

Schneider hit on all 3 picks in 2021? How the heck do you know? Eskridge has played in just 3 games this year, has all of 7 catches for a whopping 47 yards and 1 TD, Tre Brown has played in 5 games, has 10 tackles with no interceptions, and Stone Forsythe has played in 6 games. Granted, they all look to have potential and might turn out to be solid contributors one day, but it is way, way too early to declare that JS "hit" on any of those selections, especially when you have to note that they're playing for a 5-8 team.

If you want to talk about "hitting" on a draft pick, the Chiefs hit on their 2nd round pick Creed Humphrey, a player they selected several picks after we took Eskridge, has started all 14 games for the Chiefs, and who PFF has graded out as the highest performing rookie OL through the first half of the season since 2006. That's what a "hit" on a draft pick looks like.

No draft crystal balls exist but perhaps a 3rd and one of our 4th RD picks could be used on a Tackle and/or a Center depending on who's available in free agency. Two CB (4th and 5th RD Picks?) would stabilize our secondary. A 2nd round Edge/DE and perhaps a 7th round QB pick to give Geno some competition if Bledsoe isn't enough. If the cap gets increased (NFL needs to deal with new Covid impact) then look for a few splashes in free agency...once we extend a few contracts of our own. Both TE (Dissly/Everett)...both CB's (DJ Reed/S. Jones)...and of course Quandre Diggs as our FS. Others like Al Woods/Rasheem Green and Brandon Shell might be cap hits.

An exclusive rights free agent (ERFA) is a veteran player with less than three accrued NFL seasons. An ERFA is limited to either signing the contract tendered to him by his current team, or not playing in the NFL that season. If a team chooses not to tender a contract to an ERFA, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. We have a bunch : S/CB Ryan Neal/John Reid/Nigel Warrior and Tanner Muse. LB Jon Rattigan/DT Bryan Mone/C Dakota Shepley and WR Penny Hart.

A restricted free agent (RFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with three accrued seasons but not four accrued seasons of service. (Under certain restrictions, any NFL player with three accrued seasons shall be free to negotiate and sign a contract with any other NFL club). We have three : CB Bliss Austin and two Backup O-Line G Phil Haynes and C/G Kyle Fuller.

Unlike in the NBA or MLB, players’ contracts in the NFL aren’t guaranteed by default. Typically, an NFL player will receive at least some guaranteed money when he signs a deal, but that money often comes in the form of contract bonuses, and in particular signing bonuses.

Void years are dummy contract years that do not truly exist, as in the player is not actually under contract for those seasons. They serve as a placeholder for prorated money (When a player signs a contract that includes a signing bonus, that portion is prorated over the length of the contract for salary cap purposes. Since players who are opting out will have their contracts toll, the prorated portion of those bonuses will move along with the contract, instead of being counted this season. Because a team can prorate money up to a maximum of five years, if the player’s current contract only had three years remaining, the team may seek to add void years onto the end of the deal to make the prorated bonus amounts even smaller. We have four such guys : LT Duane Brown (Cap Hit in 2021: 9.9 Million) C Ethan Pocic (Cap Hit in 2021:2 Million) TE Gerald Everette (Cap Hit in 2021: 4 Million) and FS Quandre Diggs (Cap Hit in 2021: 3.6 Million)...as players they are not bound by void contracts so if we don't sign them to extended contracts...they will be Unrestricted Free Agents.

An unrestricted free agent (UFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with four or more accrued seasons of service. An unrestricted free agent will be completely free to sign with another team, unless they were given the one-year franchise/transition tag by their team. We have the four above with Void years and the following as UFA players : RT Brandon Shell (Age 29)/ DT Al Woods (Age 34)/ CB Sidney Jones (Age 25)/ DT Rasheem Green (Age 24)/ TE Will Dissly (Age 25)/ QB Geno Smith (Age 31) and CB DJ Reed (Age 25).

All good information. It's hard to believe that Dissly is done with his rookie contract. They'll have some tough decisions to make in the offseason, particularly on those young guys..Dissly, Green, Reed, Jones. None look to be a slam dunk no brainer re-sign.

[Hawktawk]

If our GM John Schneider can hit on all six of our picks in 2022...like he did with only three picks in 2021...our team will regain some of its lost talent. All 6 picks should be high up in each round they get selected since we struggled winning this year ...and well any pick (our extra 4th) from the NY Jets has remained high.

No draft crystal balls exist but perhaps a 3rd and one of our 4th RD picks could be used on a Tackle and/or a Center depending on who's available in free agency. Two CB (4th and 5th RD Picks?) would stabilize our secondary. A 2nd round Edge/DE and perhaps a 7th round QB pick to give Geno some competition if Bledsoe isn't enough. If the cap gets increased (NFL needs to deal with new Covid impact) then look for a few splashes in free agency...once we extend a few contracts of our own. Both TE (Dissly/Everett)...both CB's (DJ Reed/S. Jones)...and of course Quandre Diggs as our FS. Others like Al Woods/Rasheem Green and Brandon Shell might be cap hits.

An exclusive rights free agent (ERFA) is a veteran player with less than three accrued NFL seasons. An ERFA is limited to either signing the contract tendered to him by his current team, or not playing in the NFL that season. If a team chooses not to tender a contract to an ERFA, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. We have a bunch : S/CB Ryan Neal/John Reid/Nigel Warrior and Tanner Muse. LB Jon Rattigan/DT Bryan Mone/C Dakota Shepley and WR Penny Hart.

A restricted free agent (RFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with three accrued seasons but not four accrued seasons of service. (Under certain restrictions, any NFL player with three accrued seasons shall be free to negotiate and sign a contract with any other NFL club). We have three : CB Bliss Austin and two Backup O-Line G Phil Haynes and C/G Kyle Fuller.

Unlike in the NBA or MLB, players’ contracts in the NFL aren’t guaranteed by default. Typically, an NFL player will receive at least some guaranteed money when he signs a deal, but that money often comes in the form of contract bonuses, and in particular signing bonuses.

Void years are dummy contract years that do not truly exist, as in the player is not actually under contract for those seasons. They serve as a placeholder for prorated money (When a player signs a contract that includes a signing bonus, that portion is prorated over the length of the contract for salary cap purposes. Since players who are opting out will have their contracts toll, the prorated portion of those bonuses will move along with the contract, instead of being counted this season. Because a team can prorate money up to a maximum of five years, if the player’s current contract only had three years remaining, the team may seek to add void years onto the end of the deal to make the prorated bonus amounts even smaller. We have four such guys : LT Duane Brown (Cap Hit in 2021: 9.9 Million) C Ethan Pocic (Cap Hit in 2021:2 Million) TE Gerald Everette (Cap Hit in 2021: 4 Million) and FS Quandre Diggs (Cap Hit in 2021: 3.6 Million)...as players they are not bound by void contracts so if we don't sign them to extended contracts...they will be Unrestricted Free Agents.

An unrestricted free agent (UFA) is any NFL veteran [that reaches the end of his contract] with four or more accrued seasons of service. An unrestricted free agent will be completely free to sign with another team, unless they were given the one-year franchise/transition tag by their team. We have the four above with Void years and the following as UFA players : RT Brandon Shell (Age 29)/ DT Al Woods (Age 34)/ CB Sidney Jones (Age 25)/ DT Rasheem Green (Age 24)/ TE Will Dissly (Age 25)/ QB Geno Smith (Age 31) and CB DJ Reed (Age 25).

Based on potential I see where you are coming from on this years draft picks . Eskridge appeared to be an electrifying player until getting his brain bucket rearranged . He’s once again showing he’s the quickest skill position player on the roster , Harvin type juice . Tre brown is very good , the best at that corner position in a while . Forsythe is a giant of a man and was an admitted project coming in . He’s not embarrassed himself in limited action . Injuries are the huge wild card . Hopeful Penney can continue to show the reason he was picked so high this coming Tuesday .

[NorthHawk]

We've been saying for years that the OL needs an upgrade but it's never been addressed.
We've passed by very good players along the OL in every draft in favor of others that haven't panned out.
There's no reason to think it's going to change any time soon with the current FO mind set.

[tarlhawk]

Schneider hit on all 3 picks in 2021? How the heck do you know? Eskridge has played in just 3 games this year, has all of 7 catches for a whopping 47 yards and 1 TD, Tre Brown has played in 5 games, has 10 tackles with no interceptions, and Stone Forsythe has played in 6 games. Granted, they all look to have potential and might turn out to be solid contributors one day, but it is way, way too early to declare that JS "hit" on any of those selections, especially when you have to note that they're playing for a 5-8 team.

If you want to talk about "hitting" on a draft pick, the Chiefs hit on their 2nd round pick Creed Humphrey, a player they selected several picks after we took Eskridge, has started all 14 games for the Chiefs, and who PFF has graded out as the highest performing rookie OL through the first half of the season since 2006. That's what a "hit" on a draft pick looks like.

My "hits" aren't all-pros playing in their rookie seasons...but exhibit excellent upside and potential...injuries once again cloud the "slam dunk" kind of hit...but John Schneider wasn't sleeping at the wheel when he selected these three players. Creed was not an unknown...so the fact that KC was fortunate for Creed to drop into the 2nd round and for us to let a NEED go by...As a hit Creed was no surprise.

[RiverDog]

Schneider hit on all 3 picks in 2021? How the heck do you know? Eskridge has played in just 3 games this year, has all of 7 catches for a whopping 47 yards and 1 TD, Tre Brown has played in 5 games, has 10 tackles with no interceptions, and Stone Forsythe has played in 6 games. Granted, they all look to have potential and might turn out to be solid contributors one day, but it is way, way too early to declare that JS "hit" on any of those selections, especially when you have to note that they're playing for a 5-8 team.

If you want to talk about "hitting" on a draft pick, the Chiefs hit on their 2nd round pick Creed Humphrey, a player they selected several picks after we took Eskridge, has started all 14 games for the Chiefs, and who PFF has graded out as the highest performing rookie OL through the first half of the season since 2006. That's what a "hit" on a draft pick looks like.

My "hits" aren't all-pros playing in their rookie seasons...but exhibit excellent upside and potential...injuries once again cloud the "slam dunk" kind of hit...but John Schneider wasn't sleeping at the wheel when he selected these three players. Creed was not an unknown...so the fact that KC was fortunate for Creed to drop into the 2nd round and for us to let a NEED go by...As a hit Creed was no surprise.

Well, all I can say is that you have a very wide, extremely liberal definition of the term "hit" as its used to define draft picks if that's what you consider our 2021 draft class as being. Using your definition, every GM in the league has drafted a plethora of players that have "exhibited excellent upside and potential".

[tarlhawk]

It's hard to believe that Dissly is done with his rookie contract.

I know what you mean ...but sadly the first half of his contract was consumed by injury. His youth and skill set should make him an attractive target to sign an extension with.

[RiverDog]

It's hard to believe that Dissly is done with his rookie contract.

I know what you mean ...but sadly the first half of his contract was consumed by injury. His youth and skill set should make him an attractive target to sign an extension with.

I really like Dissly and would love to see us bring him back. He's an excellent in line tight end that can block and is athletic enough to make tough catches. He reminds me a lot of Zach Miller.

[Hawktawk]

What ever happened to Colby Parkinson that TE out of Stanford ? It’s all Carroll could talk about pre season when addressing the position group . I like uncle Will and thought he was a much more accomplished receiver than advertised but the injuries

[RiverDog]

What ever happened to Colby Parkinson that TE out of Stanford ? It’s all Carroll could talk about pre season when addressing the position group . I like uncle Will and thought he was a much more accomplished receiver than advertised but the injuries

According to some, Parkinson is a "hit" of a draft pick.