Could Pete Be Gone Before Seasons End?

[RiverDog]

I read an interesting article about a new rule that limits teams from interviewing other team's coaches as potential replacements that may affect how our impending decision, or rather Jody Allen's decision, to replace our head coach:

As teams fall out of contention, teams may implement plans to terminate their coaches. Especially since the owners decided in October to allow coaching interviews to begin as of Week 17 of the regular season.

Permission must be given the current employer of the candidate to interview for such vacancies. The interviews can happen virtually. Here’s the key. The interviews can be conducted only if the (hiring) team’s coach has been fired or informed that he won’t be back after the season.

It raises the stakes for teams thinking about firing coaches. Waiting until the season ends puts the team at a disadvantage, since other teams will have started the process. It could potentially become a game of dominoes, with one team going first and others following in order to get a chance to interview a hot candidate before someone else falls in love with him, and vice versa. (The Raiders already are the first domino, thanks to the departure of Jon Gruden.)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ne ... d=msedgntp

We currently have a 3% chance of making the playoffs. The only teams in the NFC with worse chances are the Lions and Bears, two teams that are on our remaining schedule. This week's opponent, the Texans, are an AFC team. This means that even if we win those three games, it's not going to affect our standing amongst the teams we're competing with for the 3 wild card berths.

In other words, our next loss will likely result in our being mathematically eliminated. If Jody Allen wants to make a change, she would be well advised to fire Pete ASAP as it would give her more options as to his replacement.

Thoughts?

[jshawaii22]

Do you really think Jody Allen is the 'decision maker'? In their corporate world, I doubt it. Team President or CEO. Maybe she nods her head when 'consulted'... and no, it won't happen before the end of the year and Pete would have to resign or retire. The team won't fire him. Now, JS, that's another story. I think it's time for a new GM

[obiken]

Do you really think Jody Allen is the 'decision maker'? In their corporate world, I doubt it. Team President or CEO. Maybe she nods her head when 'consulted'... and no, it won't happen before the end of the year and Pete would have to resign or retire. The team won't fire him. Now, JS, that's another story. I think it's time for a new GM

Living in south of PDX gives me unique advantage to information. What you, River, Cbob, HT, ETC, all have to understand is, Jody Allen is not the owner, she is the trustee of the Allen estate, the Hawks and the Blazers, are assets in that trust. It was his assumption that those assets would be sold off. WE could be in limbo for years.

[Hawktawk]

The reports of Jodi Allen’s displeasure have been doubled down on by Peter King . She may not be a policy wonk hands on owner but neither is she a potted plant and I’m sure she will listen to advice . What happened in Portland should be a shot across the bow for PC. I don’t see them firing him mid season though.

[obiken]

The reports of Jodi Allen’s displeasure have been doubled down on by Peter King . She may not be a policy wonk hands on owner but neither is she a potted plant and I’m sure she will listen to advice . What happened in Portland should be a shot across the bow for PC. I don’t see them firing him mid season though.

The man with the power IMHO HT, is John Schneider, he could fire PC and she would do nothing. IF I were him I would fire PC and get Eric Biemeny and go from there, but that's just me.

[c_hawkbob]

OMG, Schneider has less power than Pete.

Peter McLoughlin (Vulcan CEO), Chuck Arnold (Seahawks team President) and Bert Kolde (Vice Chair of the Seattle Seahawks & Portland Trail Blazers and Executive Vice President of Sports Strategy and Operations at Vulcan) make up the Vulcan and team decision making brass and I'm sure Jody has final sign off authority over decisions they make.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, Obi, it's pretty common knowledge that Schneider works for Pete. He wouldn't have taken the job if it didn't include complete authority over all football operations. Everything, including trades, draft picks, and resigning's goes through Pete for final approval.

Jody Allen, whether she's the trustee, owner, CEO, or queen will be the one that actually signs on the dotted line. Obviously, there's various people at Vulcan that will have a lot of input on the decision, but the buck stops with Jody.

I didn't mean to touch off a debate over the team's structure. What I meant to do was to seek opinions on whether or not we could see Pete fired soon, perhaps as soon as next Monday if we lose this weekend. We can start talking to other team's coaches as early as Tuesday, December 28th when Week 17 begins. If other teams start canning coaches before then, it's going to put more pressure on the Hawks to make a decision.

And just in case anyone is holding out hope of making the playoffs, our win last week against the Niners did nothing to raise our chances. According to this article, we're still sitting at 3%:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... cture.html

The only teams with worse odds are the Lions (0%) and the Bears (1%). Both of those teams, plus the AFC Texans, are on our remaining schedule, so beating them isn't going to result in leap frogging the rest of the teams in the conference that are ahead of us. Saying that we need help is a vast understatement. We need a miracle. One more loss and we can drive the final nail into the coffin, with no reason to keep Pete around if his firing is inevitable. Nothing to gain and everything to lose.

So keep an eye on what other teams are doing. If a couple of teams, say Jacksonville and the Bears, start firing their coaches, there's going to be pressure on us to do the same. No more Bloody Monday.

[Hawktawk]

I’ll be curious to see who actually gets fired . Jags had the opening to do so without financial penalty earlier. Nagy was rumored to be gone weeks ago . I don’t think he’s a bad coach . He got to the playoffs with trashbiski and now he’s got an injury prone wild rookie and a washed up backup , tons of injuries . . Zimmer just hit red hot seat mode after losing to the Lions . Giants might be needing more then a QB. Jets might be wise to go 1 and done with Saleh. That’s a few of my hot seats along with PC. So who knows . If we lost to the Texans we would be losing to a bad but unpredictable team but it would br a horrible loss. These 3% odds assume Seattle can’t run the table to begin with . We should be favored in 3 of the games and were competetive with the Rams with our backup and should have beaten AZ with their backup . The team has enough talent to run it . Then the rest of the league has been so wild . Injuries happen . You never know . Stats don’t play the games
If reports of ms Allen’s displeasure are true it probably won’t matter.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think they would fire him during the season even if we had the Lions record, nor do I think Pete leaves voluntarily while the schedule is being played out.
Any changes will be made after the year is done and it's two parties who have to decide not just ownership.

Interesting list, but I take exception to removing Saleh of the Jets. They need stability more than anything and firing first year coaches isn't the way to go.

[Hawktawk]

I did say "maybe" on Salah. He has a couple of signature wins including an NFL record performance by off the street backup Mike White. Your probably right abut him. My knock is hes put the young rook in harms way and got him beat up pretty bad. I know its what the kid plays like but he will be RG3 without the early success if he keeps it up. As for PC and Vulcan they can wipe their arse with the buyout and it wont matter if they decide to move. My position you should have the respect for the mans accomplishments to grant him the rest of the season then a sit down knock down drag out and at least strip power. I'm with fire him but I'm with trade Wilson and bring in a good young coach and good young prospect too. I think Russell's power over a young new coach would be too much. I am definitely not interested in seeing PC and JS wasting any capital gained from a trade. For me its both or forge on another year.

[RiverDog]

Historically there's been 6-7 HC opening each season. This season might be a little different as more teams are closer to .500 than in recent years, but there's still going to be enough to where it would be a huge disadvantage if a team waits until the end of the season to begin talking to other team's coaches. Two weeks can be an eternity.

There are other coaches out there besides those that Hawktalk mentioned that are rumored as being on the hot seat, including the Panther's Matt Rhule and the Bronco's Vic Fangio. The Chiefs have been trashing the Broncos for years and just got through driving that point home on national TV. You gotta think that the natives are restless.

We'll see what happens between now and Christmas, but as teams get mathematically eliminated...the Giants and Bears will be the first to fall..teams will start pulling triggers.

[Hawktawk]

My question is who is out there to replace them . A year ago when we had Schottie I’d have said promote him . Just called a record setting offense . He and Russ got along . Waldron is a zit faced kid . Norton ? Lmao. I just don’t know the hot names out there ?

[RiverDog]

My question is who is out there to replace them . A year ago when we had Schottie I’d have said promote him . Just called a record setting offense . He and Russ got along . Waldron is a zit faced kid . Norton ? Lmao. I just don’t know the hot names out there ?

Eric Bienemy is one obvious choice. Dan Quinn and Leslie Frazier have been rumored as possibly getting a 2nd shot at a HC job but it won't be with us. Dennis Allen, the Saints' OC, and Nathinal Hackett, Packers OC, are hot commodities. I sincerely doubt that we'll stay in house.

Or here's a thought: How about Nick Rolovich?

[Rambo2014]

You fells cannot recruit your draft players out of a wet paper sack...no skill id'ing talent and durability IMO

Maybe your caliber team should get the Ryan boys

[NorthHawk]

Byron Leftwich is another possible HC and maybe Brian Daboll.

[Hawktawk]

You fells cannot recruit your draft players out of a wet paper sack...no skill id'ing talent and durability IMO

Maybe your caliber team should get the Ryan boys

How’s that super team working out ? I’ll laugh when you crash . Blue and pee yellow makes me want to puke . Eat it

[obiken]

How’s that super team working out ? I’ll laugh when you crash . Blue and pee yellow makes me want to puke . Eat it

Why do you guys engage Dumbo? Come on I blocked him a log time ago, he is just a Troll and not a very sharp Troll.

[Hawktawk]

I block no one. Ill engage the dummy anytime. He can run his mouth when his team is eliminated. Oh wait. He will be nowhere to be found.

I would not rule out Russ being Pod about getting hurt last game and putting one on the Rams. Hes overdue .

[RiverDog]

How’s that super team working out ? I’ll laugh when you crash . Blue and pee yellow makes me want to puke . Eat it

Why do you guys engage Dumbo? Come on I blocked him a log time ago, he is just a Troll and not a very sharp Troll.

I don't engage him but I don't block him, either. Like you said, unlike CP Returns from the old PI forum, he's not articulate and doesn't give the backhanded complements, the smart ass stuff that can piss a person off. He's our forum's clown, the kid that sits in the corner of the classroom wearing a dunce cap. He's entertainment and doesn't bother me in the least.

[obiken]

I don't engage him but I don't block him, either. Like you said, unlike CP Returns from the old PI forum, he's not articulate and doesn't give the backhanded complements, the smart ass stuff that can piss a person off. He's our forum's clown, the kid that sits in the corner of the classroom wearing a dunce cap. He's entertainment and doesn't bother me in the least.

There are some I actually miss, like Global. Some like Duck b man, or Phili55 I am glad are out of my life!! We had a lot more Trolls in there River, but they were smarter, tougher Tolls than Dumbo.

[obiken]

Pete needs to go, IF they ship out Russ and keep Pete I am mentally checking out on the Hawks. (course of you would say I was never mentally checked in! )WE have had ONE great Franchise QB and RW is it period.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah obviously but we had guys that were good enough if they had the team . Give Russ his due he’s one of the greatest dual threat qbs in history . But he’s not who he was anymore . Still capable of greatness but not consistent and clutch . Is it Russ? Coach ? Line ? Scheme ? Are we satisfied to go to a wildcard and win it now and again ? I see no sensible scenario other than get the heads together and figure it out another year or blow it up. For his greatnsss Russ has got PC by the balls , has them in his locker . So what kind of chance would some new coach have or do you think a regular season wonder 10 year vet should tell the coach what he’s gonna do ? No way I want PC handling a trade of Russ and the draft capital . They were swindled on the Adams trade . Today Russ was bullish on his future here , said he hoped to play another 10 years here . So maybe he is angling to outlast Pete here after all.

[obiken]

Yeah obviously but we had guys that were good enough if they had the team . Give Russ his due he’s one of the greatest dual threat qbs in history . But he’s not who he was anymore . Still capable of greatness but not consistent and clutch . Is it Russ? Coach ? Line ? Scheme ? Are we satisfied to go to a wildcard and win it now and again ? I see no sensible scenario other than get the heads together and figure it out another year or blow it up. For his greatnsss Russ has got PC by the balls , has them in his locker . So what kind of chance would some new coach have or do you think a regular season wonder 10 year vet should tell the coach what he’s gonna do ? No way I want PC handling a trade of Russ and the draft capital . They were swindled on the Adams trade . Today Russ was bullish on his future here , said he hoped to play another 10 years here . So maybe he is angling to outlast Pete here after all.

Okay and maybe you and River are right, but how do we really know that? He has been carrying a team with RB by committee, no oline, and a shrinking defense, (you realize that our defense is ranked 31st) for the last 5 years!! As CCohwerd would say, what does Seattle do well outside of RW, nothing!!

[RiverDog]

Okay and maybe you and River are right, but how do we really know that? He has been carrying a team with RB by committee, no oline, and a shrinking defense, (you realize that our defense is ranked 31st) for the last 5 years!! As CCohwerd would say, what does Seattle do well outside of RW, nothing!!

No one denies that Russell WAS the best QB this franchise has ever seen and that he carried this team for a number of years. The question is whether or not he's the right quarterback to lead us as we go into what might be a several years long rebuild?

The first and most important question is does Russell really want to be part of this rebuild? Yesterday, in response to some trade rumors, another short list of teams he supposedly would waive his no trade clause for, he said that he wanted to play for the Hawks "for 20 years". While that sounds like more Russell piling on the BS so that everyone would love him again and that he won't hold us hostage in a few years when his contract is up, if he's sincere in that, then absolutely I want him to help us rebuild the franchise.

However, there are some legitimate questions about his style of play, how his advancing age has led to fewer Houdini-like escapes and more sacks, that he holds onto the ball too long, that he doesn't take what the defense gives him, that he doesn't throw over the middle, and so on. If he does stick with us, he style of play needs to change.

With Minnesota winning last night, we came one step closer to mathematical elimination as the Vikings are one of 8 teams ahead of us in the wild card race. The Rams and WFT, both with wins over us, lead the wild card race. The only NFC team that's mathematically eliminated are the Lions.

[Hawktawk]

Russ told us he was ready to go the Tuesday before the Packers game . I think we saw how that played out . I don’t believe he wants to be here another 10 years and I don’t believe his play would hold up nearly that long at its current trajectory . Here’s the thing about Russ. He’s never changed his game much. He’s heavier on the deep shots now but never was a pure pocket guy. He ran to throw more than to run but the run to throw isn’t working nearly as well and he’s taking sacks in critical moments . I’ll say this having watched the 9 ers game in its entirety it’s the most decisive I’ve seen him in a while . His mind was better . So that is an encouragement . These next 5 will hopefully provide some answers .

[NorthHawk]

The bigger question if he leaves is how would we replace him?
He might be our first and only Franchise QB to date and teams search years for someone to fill that role of a QB who is the undisputed starter
and who can win games by himself on a regular basis. But like all QB's he needs a coaching staff that knows how to build a proper Offense
for him to realize his and the Offenses full potential.

There doesn't seem to be many real good QB's in this years draft. The last few years have been pretty good, but this year the well seems dry
for the most part. Backups are backups for a reason so poaching one off of a team is a real long shot.

[Hawktawk]

It depends on what happens in a hypothetical trade . As you say there aren’t a lot of prospects in the draft or in potential FA. If it’s the Giants Daniel Jones comes with . If it’s Denver Bridgewater . If it’s the Saints maybe Winston . And call me a Geno worshipper but he really played pretty clean with decent #s , clearly a huge improvement in his game from his early years . It’s one reason I was frustrated with Russell scissorhand absolutely sharting the bed and getting blanked . It would have been brilliant to allow Geno to start off a flawless performance in the biggest blowout in a year . Announcers calling the jags called him starter quality . I’m not sure about that but if the haters want to discount Jags then surely Green Bay would have been a good measuring stick . It’s been Russes house of horrors in his career anyway . So we don’t know . I’d want the guy on the roster at least in camp . Mayfield could be looking for a job . I’d want to kick the tires on Minshew assuming the Eagles don’t protect him as insurance . Lots of stuff can happen . I’m really beginning to think Russ may in fact be trying to outlast PC and so all this would be moot .

[RiverDog]

The bigger question if he leaves is how would we replace him?
He might be our first and only Franchise QB to date and teams search years for someone to fill that role of a QB who is the undisputed starter
and who can win games by himself on a regular basis. But like all QB's he needs a coaching staff that knows how to build a proper Offense
for him to realize his and the Offenses full potential.

There doesn't seem to be many real good QB's in this years draft. The last few years have been pretty good, but this year the well seems dry
for the most part. Backups are backups for a reason so poaching one off of a team is a real long shot.

Yeah, that's the dilemma that any team would face if they lose their franchise QB. But as a number of teams have proven, it can be done even without a top 10 draft pick. Lamar Jackson was taken with the #32 overall, Mac Jones was the #15 pick, Dak Prescott was taken in the 4th round. Any trade of Russell would involve multiple first round picks, so it's not as if we wouldn't have an opportunity to acquire one of the top 2 or 3 QB's available.

After another rumor of a short list of teams that Russell would waive his no trade clause for (Saints, Broncos, and Giants), someone mentioned a potential trade with the New Orleans: The Saints 2022 and 2023 first rounders and Marshon Lattimore, a 25 year old 3 time Pro Bowl cornerback. That's the type of deal that we could expect should a trade materialize.

[TriCitySam]

Not a chance, unless it's his own decision

[RiverDog]

Not a chance, unless it's his own decision

Are you talking about a Russell trade or Pete firing? We've been discussing both possibilities.

[TriCitySam]

Are you talking about a Russell trade or Pete firing? We've been discussing both possibilities.

Certainly to Pete. Garafolo,who initiated the Jody Allen story has already backed off, saying “Didn’t mean she’s disregarding a decade of winning”. To which I totally agree, that’s the kind of move the worst owners would do. Also, RW has denied the “no trade clause” story and says he wants to stay in Seattle thru his contract and beyond “I love this place, I love this space”. Unless something changes, I see them all back, with revisions elsewhere. Allen’s involvement is likely to be asking her managers to provide a plan to correct weaknesses.

[RiverDog]

Certainly to Pete. Garafolo,who initiated the Jody Allen story has already backed off, saying “Didn’t mean she’s disregarding a decade of winning”. To which I totally agree, that’s the kind of move the worst owners would do. Also, RW has denied the “no trade clause” story and says he wants to stay in Seattle thru his contract and beyond “I love this place, I love this space”. Unless something changes, I see them all back, with revisions elsewhere. Allen’s involvement is likely to be asking her managers to provide a plan to correct weaknesses.

There's more than Garafolo's article that gives reason to believe that there may be some big changes coming this offseason. The Vulcan-owned Portland Trailblazers went through a similar scenario.
.
Russell didn't exactly deny the no trade clause story. He said it was a "non story", whatever that means. Does that sound sort of like the difference between vaccinated and immunized? You never know about these NFL quarterback types.

So we'll see. Once they turn off life support on this season and we're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, which could happen as early as this Sunday, don't be surprised if we make a move.

[Hawktawk]

The teams won 1 playoff game in 5 years and hasn’t won or been particularly close to winning a divisional since the dynasty killing call on the one . They lost in the WC 2 of the last 3. Those are Terry Stotts of the trailblazers numbers . Yeah there’s a championship which can never be forgotten but neither should the dynasty killer play the following year . Imo there should have been more accountability . But 3-5 in the postseason since ? That’s Holmgren . So I see the frustration Jodi may be feeling . My guess is all the leaks from Allen’s people and Russes agent I’m guessing is just FYI. I think everyone is waiting to see what happens these last 5 games . I think it’s very important

[trents]

I don't understand why the call on the one yard line against New England in the super bowl should be considered dynasty killing. It is not responsible for loss of talent and personnel changes that followed. In and of itself it was just a super bowl title that was squandered. Unless you define a dynasty as winning more than one Super Bowl in close together seasons, that is.

[RiverDog]

I don't understand why the call on the one yard line against New England in the super bowl should be considered dynasty killing. It is not responsible for loss of talent and personnel changes that followed. In and of itself it was just a super bowl title that was squandered. Unless you define a dynasty as winning more than one Super Bowl in close together seasons, that is.

Immediately after that game, I posted a comment in this forum saying that loss was so devastating that it would be a bigger challenge for Pete to keep this team together than it was to build it in the first place. At the risk of breaking my arm patting myself on the back, I was exactly right.

The following season, Kam Chancellor embarked on his holdout, Russell Wilson wasn't black enough, and Pete became the butt of the jokes....Starbucks drive through to Pete Carroll: Do you want me to hand this to you or should I pass it?

There's no way anyone can prove or disprove it, but I sincerely feel that we won SB 49 that we would have had considerably more success in the following seasons, that it was the beginning of the end.

[NorthHawk]

At the time I discounted your view of the importance of that loss, but in retrospect you might be right.
The other factor could be that with a team of Alpha males that we had, something was going to give earlier than other teams anyway
and that loss was a catalyst for dissent. It's often been said on this forum (and maybe others) that Pete's college rah rah style won't
work for the long term with veterans and it might have also been a part of it too. It was kind of a point where we reached the
pinnacle and then slowly slid into that twilight of not being good enough to really challenge for a championship but not being bad
enough to get good draft picks. Along with the FO abandoning it's blueprint in building a team through the draft it cemented our
fate of being in that middling zone that we seem to have recently fallen from into near irrelevance vis a vis playoff threats.
We're going to win a few more games this year and maybe surprise some teams, but that speaks more about the parity in the NFL
than us being good enough to really compete against the best teams.

[RiverDog]

At the time I discounted your view of the importance of that loss, but in retrospect you might be right.

You know what clinched it for me? It was when on the kneel down immediately after the interception, our defense behaved in a very disgraceful and unsportsmanlike way and started fighting with the Patriots players. That display of rage said something to me, that it was going to be beyond Pete's ability to regulate.

The other factor could be that with a team of Alpha males that we had, something was going to give earlier than other teams anyway and that loss was a catalyst for dissent. It's often been said on this forum (and maybe others) that Pete's college rah rah style won't
work for the long term with veterans and it might have also been a part of it too. It was kind of a point where we reached the
pinnacle and then slowly slid into that twilight of not being good enough to really challenge for a championship but not being bad
enough to get good draft picks. Along with the FO abandoning it's blueprint in building a team through the draft it cemented our
fate of being in that middling zone that we seem to have recently fallen from into near irrelevance vis a vis playoff threats.
We're going to win a few more games this year and maybe surprise some teams, but that speaks more about the parity in the NFL
than us being good enough to really compete against the best teams.

Agreed. Having worked for a couple of those types, I was one of those that was critical of Pete's nonstop rah rah enthusiasm as a management style, that it was my feeling that it was more appropriate for the 18-23 year olds that were only going to spend 2-5 years in his program than it was for a group of 22-35 year old alpha males that had different priorities. I was wrong initially, but as you said, it sure seems like that in the long run, that judgement might have some truth to it, at least as it applies to the group of strong-minded individuals we had on that team.

[TriCitySam]

[quote="RiverDog"[/quote]There's more than Garafolo's article that gives reason to believe that there may be some big changes coming this offseason. The Vulcan-owned Portland Trailblazers went through a similar scenario.
.
Russell didn't exactly deny the no trade clause story. He said it was a "non story", whatever that means. Does that sound sort of like the difference between vaccinated and immunized? You never know about these NFL quarterback types.

So we'll see. Once they turn off life support on this season and we're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, which could happen as early as this Sunday, don't be surprised if we make a move.[/quote]

As for Garafolo, his tweet after the article makes it pretty clear that he was not saying she wanted to make changes, rather that she was involved and wanted to make sure they were on the right path. There were extenuating circumstances in the Trailblazers move that are not present in Seattle.

Russell's people and RW himself were also fairly clear in their denial. As John Clayton wrote "On Thursday, Wilson made the biggest statement of the season. He said waiving the no-trade cause was a non-issue. He said he wanted to complete his contract, which runs through 2023. Even better, he said he’d like to stay here 20 years. Wilson said he loves this city. Despite the statement, national NFL reporters will still keep bringing up the idea what Wilson wants out and could be traded. In 50 years of covering this league, the Wilson trade story is the most ridiculous story I’ve ever covered. Wilson never asked to be traded."

Another case of NFL reporters trying to make a story....but some people still believe the world is flat.

[NorthHawk]

I wouldn't quote Clayton as a great source for your argument. I think he's well past his prime and heading towards the dottering old fools stage of life.

The fact is Wilson's agent has provided a number of teams he would waive his no trade clause for. That simply doesn't happen if the player has
no intention of moving on. Wilson and his agent also have back door communications with the media like Cowherd or former players. No matter what
you might think of them as journalists, they are being used by the Wilson camp to present his feelings or wants. So it's really down to who goes, is it
going to be Pete ore Russ?

[NorthHawk]

Agreed. Having worked for a couple of those types, I was one of those that was critical of Pete's nonstop rah rah enthusiasm as a management style, that it was my feeling that it was more appropriate for the 18-23 year olds that were only going to spend 2-5 years in his program than it was for a group of 22-35 year old alpha males that had different priorities. I was wrong initially, but as you said, it sure seems like that in the long run, that judgement might have some truth to it, at least as it applies to the group of strong-minded individuals we had on that team.

That's something he should have been aware of and it doesn't mesh with not constantly rebuilding through the draft so there are fewer veterans who tune out.
If there was more success, I think that like Wagner, some would stay because of the success, but the drafting went sour and the FO ended up trading for more veterans
and since the younger players would be more amenable to Pete's message, the puzzle pieces don't fit.