Pats vs. Bills

[RiverDog]

It's been a long time since I've watched a game like that. I've seen games in similar weather conditions, seen a game once where the wind was blowing so hard that it blew a punted ball behind the line of scrimmage, seen games where teams chose to go on defense at the start of both halves so they could choose which goal to defend, seen a game where it was so foggy that they had to place all the tv cameras on the sidelines, seen a game where a punt landed in the mud like a 25 pound sack of potatoes and where it was raining so hard that paper cups and sandwich wrappers were floating down the stairs of the stadium in the runoff.

Mac Jones passed just 3 times last night. I heard on Good Morning Football that Peyton and Eli kept saying "now here comes the play action pass", and they'd hand off. There was a point where it was 3rd and 5 and New England ran a QB sneak, then ran another QB sneak on 4th and one. I could imagine the Bills' DC, rolling his eyes in disgust.

Someone made the comment that the only coach that would have the balls to tell his offense that they weren't passing the ball AT ALL was Belichick, and I believe that to be true.

People said that was a tough game to watch, but not me.

[NorthHawk]

The game was like a throwback to the ‘60s or ‘70s when coaches like George Allen won with
a good defense and a largely run based offense. It sure showed how important it is to control
the LoS.

[trents]

Let's face it. The Patriots were better equipped to win a game under those conditions than were the Bills. NE just didn't conjure up a dominant run game for that one contest last night. It's something they have relied on all season and have built their team around. On the other hand, the Bills have become too one dimensional and relied too heavily on Josh Allen's arm and athleticism, assets that do not transfer into points very well under the environmental conditions we saw in that game last night.

[RiverDog]

The game was like a throwback to the ‘60s or ‘70s when coaches like George Allen won with a good defense and a largely run based offense. It sure showed how important it is to control the LoS.

Even in that era, teams averaged around 25-30 passing attempts per game. You'd have to go all the way back to 1938 to get to a season where the average passing attempts per team per game was below 20:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... assing.htm

This game was unique. I have never seen a football game at the high school, college, or professional level where a team had fewer than 5 passing attempts.

[RiverDog]

Let's face it. The Patriots were better equipped to win a game under those conditions than were the Bills. NE just didn't conjure up a dominant run game for that one contest last night. It's something they have relied on all season and have built their team around. On the other hand, the Bills have become too one dimensional and relied too heavily on Josh Allen's arm and athleticism, assets that do not transfer into points very well under the environmental conditions we saw in that game last night.

Absouletly true. And I'll also add that the Bills defense has shown some susceptibility to the run recently. Two weeks ago, the Colts rang them up for 264 rushing yards and Jonathan Taylor scored 4 rushing TD's. Even without the weather conditions, a good plan would have been to run the ball.

But 3 passing attempts was insane, as were those back-to-back quarterback sneaks. Weird game.

[Aseahawkfan]

Crazy. 3 passing attempts.

[trents]

A famous NFL coach of a bygone ear used to say, "There are three things that can happen when the ball is passed. And two of them are bad." Billy Boy took that one to heart in this game.

[RiverDog]

A famous NFL coach of a bygone ear used to say, "There are three things that can happen when the ball is passed. And two of them are bad." Billy Boy took that one to heart in this game.

Actually that wasn't an NFL coach that was famous for that statement. That was Woody Hayes, the legendary Ohio State coach known for his offenses being characterized as 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But it's a good analogy.

[Hawktawk]

Kinda like Barry Switzers Oklahoma clubs . Run 40 time and pass 6 and every one of them was a big gain . But this was unique. It’s easy to overreact but IMO it’s one of the finest coaching jobs I’ve ever seen , really all season . They started 2-4 with a rook qb and haven’t missed since . They were a few points from maybe having one loss . After 2 decades of winning by dealing stars in their prime for draft picks , bringing in key FAs to being the biggest spender in FA this year and hitting on almost every signing . As for Monday aside from 3 passes thrown it was clear one was an audible by Mac Jones based on the angry sideline reaction. Just a masterful job of building a new team in the offseason and coaching it . I been watching the game 50 years and I must bow down . As great as Brady has been , the GOAT for sure , Belichick is further ahead of any other coach in history than Brady is ahead of any other QB. Who was responsible for the dynasty ? Both . Minus a miraculous 9 game Run by my Hawks to get to the game I’m rooting Tampa New England . Getcha popcorn .

[RiverDog]

Kinda like Barry Switzers Oklahoma clubs . Run 40 time and pass 6 and every one of them was a big gain . But this was unique. It’s easy to overreact but IMO it’s one of the finest coaching jobs I’ve ever seen , really all season . They started 2-4 with a rook qb and haven’t missed since . They were a few points from maybe having one loss . After 2 decades of winning by dealing stars in their prime for draft picks , bringing in key FAs to being the biggest spender in FA this year and hitting on almost every signing . As for Monday aside from 3 passes thrown it was clear one was an audible by Mac Jones based on the angry sideline reaction. Just a masterful job of building a new team in the offseason and coaching it . I been watching the game 50 years and I must bow down . As great as Brady has been , the GOAT for sure , Belichick is further ahead of any other coach in history than Brady is ahead of any other QB. Who was responsible for the dynasty ? Both . Minus a miraculous 9 game Run by my Hawks to get to the game I’m rooting Tampa New England . Getcha popcorn .

Well, the season isn't over yet. The Pats still have some tough games, with the Colts and a rematch with the Bills left on their regular season slate, not to mention the playoffs where the suddenly hot Chiefs are waiting for them. But I agree, this is a remarkable job to this point of the season.

When Brady left the Pats and led his new team to a Lombardi, a lot of us said that it pretty much settled the question of who was most responsible for the Patriots success, Belichick or Brady. This season may change that assessment.

[trents]

Last year was an exception due mainly to the limitations they had at QB (Cam Newton) but have you noticed that Belichick always finishes the season strong? He loses key people to retirement and trades and starts the next season looking vulnerable. But he coaches them up and gets them all on the same page such that by the end of the season they are hitting on all cylinders and are dominant in the playoffs.

[RiverDog]

Last year was an exception due mainly to the limitations they had at QB (Cam Newton) but have you noticed that Belichick always finishes the season strong? He loses key people to retirement and trades and starts the next season looking vulnerable. But he coaches them up and gets them all on the same page such that by the end of the season they are hitting on all cylinders and are dominant in the playoffs.

Agreed.

They really knew what they were doing when they traded up to get Mac Jones.

[Hawktawk]

Its been hard year to predict in both conferences but there is no question the Pats are the most stable predictable trustworthy team in the AFC. They are looking like they are on a path to HFA throughout so good luck going to Foxborough in Jan. I expect them in the SB. Of course its a single elimination league with 5 to play so anything can happen. They have it all though, defense and offense and ST.

I like the QB, I like the fact he disobeyed the HC and threw one. Hes got cajones. Not too many QBs ever get accused of a dirty play against a D end like he did earlier this year. I like it. If he stays healthy he a home run.

[obiken]

Billy is not the most innovative coach of all time, he is however the model of the salary cap era. Is he the greatest? IF he takes a non Brady team to the SB, yeah he gets my vote. My greatest of all time Shula, the most innovative: Landry. Tom gave us the 4-3 defense, we are still using the 4-3 Almost 70 years later!! He invented the Flex defense, shuttling in plays, and double motion. 2nd Walsh, he used the passing game to set up the running game, IE the WCO.

[trents]

I also note that before Belichick, Mac Jones was tutored by Nick Saban's coaching staff. His physical talents are not awesome but his decision making shows a lot of smarts and a lot of good coaching down through the years of his development. I just read the other day that Jones was a child model in his early years but ditched a promising show biz/media/retail career when he got his first taste of football and fell in love with it.

[Hawktawk]

Billy is not the most innovative coach of all time, he is however the model of the salary cap era. Is he the greatest? IF he takes a non Brady team to the SB, yeah he gets my vote. My greatest of all time Shula, the most innovative: Landry. Tom gave us the 4-3 defense, we are still using the 4-3 Almost 70 years later!! He invented the Flex defense, shuttling in plays, and double motion. 2nd Walsh, he used the passing game to set up the running game, IE the WCO.

lost 4-won 2? Id forgotten about a couple . Got ran over by Riggins on 4th down then smoked like a cheap joint by Joe Montana with a young Marino. Never got back in Marino's entire HOF career with the Marks brothers etc., never had a 1000 yard rushed in Marino's career. Don't get me wrong. He was a great coach, a definitely hall of famer. Just way better early in his tenure than late, kind of like our guy. Shula was better in the regular season, he was about 50% in the postseason with the back to back Lombardi's..
I have Landry much higher, a true visionary.
Walsh is above both those guys because the WCO he brought that he had copied from the college game and guys like Mouse Davis was basically unstoppable if properly executed by everyone in the play and to this day there is some form of that WCO in virtually every playbook in the league and plenty of college programs too. It made it possible for teams without a dominant runner or overpowering line to move the ball at will. Add those pieces and its a SB winning formula. He also was one of the first guys to employ sports psychology and other revolutionary aspects to the player regimen .You have to give Chuck Noll his due with 4 rings. Plenty of dream teams have crashed and burned. His never did.

But come on Fellas. How many Super bowls? How many rings? How many AFC title game appearances? How many AFC East titles despite turning the whole roster minus Brady over 5 or 6 times I'm sure? Hes done it every way from high flying offense to smash mouth such as we saw on steroids Monday. He coached up a rookie cb named Deion Butler for 2 weeks telling him to "get over the top" if Seattle ran the pick on the goal line. "got to get over the top, its the only way to stop it" Made him practice it every day and Butler said the only time he got home was the game.

Belichick proved his brilliance at the exact moment PC proved his fatal dynasty ending flaw by having Russell Wilson put it in the air in the middle of the field from the one with 20 seconds left, a timeout and Beast in the backfield. He plucked a play off film and determined Seattle would attempt it for only the 4th time of the season as they had been 3-0 on it in the regular season.

Don't know if I've ever heard this question asked. Would BB have thrown it or given it to Beast Mode who had gashed them for 5 yards a pop all day//// . Someone got cute, tried to switch it up, be innovative . I like how you say Billy isn't "innovative" I was listening to Brock and Salk Tuesday AM on my way to work and they said " Yeah Bill isn't one of those "genius coaches". " That's McDermott. " Then there was Genius Sean McVey getting beat in the Super bowl on one of Tom Brady's worst ever nights as a QB in one of the most unwatchable SBs ever 13-3. Bills defensive scheme dismantled the Rams completely. Bill doesn't overthink it.

Then look back at Genius Kyle Shanahan with ATL up 23 with 6 left in the 3rd with their hot young coach Quinn getting the bubbly ready after finishing off a rout. Sure the Atl decision making from then on was awful but a mark of Belichick teams is if you screw up they take advantage of it every time. They were down further with 6 left in the 3rd quarter than the Donkeys were against us at Halftime. NE was dealing with a qb that was rattled and had thrown a pick 6 and been knocked silly and the coach kept them in the game, kept their head and heart in the game. Denver was beat including their HOF QB when Percy housed it with 30 minutes to play. Not these guys.

They have had so many dogfights and won so many more than they have lost. And they haven't always had the best talent winning one SB with wideout Troy Brown at corner they had had so many injuries. They won it all with 50 man games missed due to injuries to starters. I'm going with you just hate the evil empire if you cant acknowledge nobody will ever match what hes done already and it looks like another championship caliber squad.
GOAT

[obiken]

They have had so many dogfights and won so many more than they have lost. And they haven't always had the best talent winning one SB with wideout Troy Brown at corner they had had so many injuries. They won it all with 50 man games missed due to injuries to starters. I'm going with you just hate the evil empire if you cant acknowledge nobody will ever match what hes done already and it looks like another championship caliber squad.
GOAT

Sure, but Bill had the greatest of all time at QB. I agree with all your points HT. However, Shula got there with 3 QB's IF you dont count Johnny U, which I dont. Do his teams stack up with the greatest of all time no, but they don't have to. He taught me that players are just a commodity, you have to cut them when they want too much money.

[Hawktawk]

I had to go research Shula because I was a very young kid for some of his SB wins. My adult memories of Shula were of his failures and mediocrity towards the end. No SB ring with Marino? Would BB have won a SB with Marino? Was Brady a lot better QB? Only one trip with Marino early on. Very few AFC championship appearances with Marino. Sure he won more games than anyone and nobody's doubting hes great but didn't Joe Gibbs WIN 3 SBs with 3 qbs? Theism an, Williams and Rypien. Parcells won 2 with different QBs.

Its all a great debate. To me Don Shula is a cautionary tale for we Seahawks fans because he was on cruise control the last decade of his career at least with no hardware to show for the greatest QB in team history. PC started late and is now the oldest coach in the league and after a run of Shula like success the past 9 years hes really down this year.

[c_hawkbob]

Sure, but Bill had the greatest of all time at QB. I agree with all your points HT. However, Shula got there with 3 QB's IF you dont count Johnny U, which I dont. Do his teams stack up with the greatest of all time no, but they don't have to. He taught me that players are just a commodity, you have to cut them when they want too much money.

Why would you not count Johnny U as a QB Shula went to the SB (well NFL Championship Game at the time) with? Unitas was healthy and played all game in 64.

[Hawktawk]

I would agree CBob why wouldn’t anyone include Johnny U. It’s more fun to talk about this stuff then the current team

[NorthHawk]

I had to go research Shula because I was a very young kid for some of his SB wins. My adult memories of Shula were of his failures and mediocrity towards the end. No SB ring with Marino? Would BB have won a SB with Marino? Was Brady a lot better QB? Only one trip with Marino early on. Very few AFC championship appearances with Marino. Sure he won more games than anyone and nobody's doubting hes great but didn't Joe Gibbs WIN 3 SBs with 3 qbs? Theism an, Williams and Rypien. Parcells won 2 with different QBs.

Its all a great debate. To me Don Shula is a cautionary tale for we Seahawks fans because he was on cruise control the last decade of his career at least with no hardware to show for the greatest QB in team history. PC started late and is now the oldest coach in the league and after a run of Shula like success the past 9 years hes really down this year.

Marino was a great QB with a far better arm than Brady. They had similarities in that they would have trouble outrunning a Sloth, but to me Marino was far and away better than Brady.
The difference is Brady had great Defenses behind him and Marino had to win on Offense.

[Hawktawk]

Marino was a great QB with a far better arm than Brady. They had similarities in that they would have trouble outrunning a Sloth, but to me Marino was far and away better than Brady.
The difference is Brady had great Defenses behind him and Marino had to win on Offense.

Ok well that's the 64K question. How was Shula unable to build a complimentary defense in Marino's entire career? How was he unable to ever acquire a 1000K running back in all those years?

To be fair to Don Shula Marino never saw a run play he didn't want to audible out of I'm telling you the last few years of Shula's storied career he was a lot like PC now. Petulant star future HOF QB with a deteriorating roster that's been declining a while ,not really too relevant anymore.

[NorthHawk]

There are some parallels to the Dolphins of the Marino era and you touched on some of them.
But that's often the way in professional sports. Teams get to the top then lose their way or change their plan and then they
rest on the accomplishments of one or a few players to keep them relevant. It's what has happened with us.

[Hawktawk]

There are some parallels to the Dolphins of the Marino era and you touched on some of them.
But that's often the way in professional sports. Teams get to the top then lose their way or change their plan and then they
rest on the accomplishments of one or a few players to keep them relevant. It's what has happened with us.

And the coach is beloved and has given so much to the franchise and fans he gets a pass for a little too long .