Are We As Bad As I Think?

[Vegaseahawk]

Man, what a terrible performance. All those chances & the Seahawks failed to take advantage of any of them. I feel sick to my stomach right now.

[RiverDog]

Man, what a terrible performance. All those chances & the Seahawks failed to take advantage of any of them. I feel sick to my stomach right now.

This is the worst Pete Carroll coached football team of his Seahawks tenure, if not his worst team, relative to their competition, of his entire career as a head coach.

[obiken]

Man, what a terrible performance. All those chances & the Seahawks failed to take advantage of any of them. I feel sick to my stomach right now.

Yeah short term their bad, long term their worse!

[Hawktawk]

Yes. We are bad. Losing the 2 corners that had elevated the D really hurt us on that side of the ball. And I got to tip a cap to McCoy. It isn't as though he wasn't pressured or hit or sacked. He got away with the huge mistake to Jones but other than that he carved us a new one. And offensively weve been inept as the Flores years 4 of Russ last 5 starts. People wanna debate if the QB is the biggest part of the problem? have you forgotten what Russell Wilson on his game looks like? Other than the second half vs the 9ers we haven't seen it in months. The Waldron experiment is a failure and maybe it wouldn't matter. The offense right now looks about like the last game of the Schottenheimer era. As has been said we have had one hell of a run. Ill raise a toast to the PC,JS Hawks. They are dead. RIP. playing out the string.

[I-5]

We are definitely getting outcoached....but how to explain Russell completely outclassed by a career backup? McCoy looked like Brady in his prime out there. Did he come back too soon? If it's not the finger, then is it rust, and if so, does that mean he shouldn't have started the last 2 games?

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah short term their bad, long term their worse!

It's always nice when you're team is doing terrible and some other team has your first round pick. You literally have nothing to do look forward to. You can't even suck to look forward to a new high first round pick stud.

[RiverDog]

We are definitely getting outcoached....but how to explain Russell completely outclassed by a career backup? McCoy looked like Brady in his prime out there. Did he come back too soon? If it's not the finger, then is it rust, and if so, does that mean he shouldn't have started the last 2 games?

Yes, we're getting out coached, but we're also getting beat up front. The defense can't get off the field and the offense can't sustain a drive.

As far as Russell's finger is concerned, the longer he's out there, the less credible that excuse becomes. And regardless of whether or not the finger is a hindrance, it's on him, either for coming back too soon and jeopardizing the success of the team in lieu of satisfying his own ego or that he's just plain playing badly.

[Hawktawk]

Digging through a few stats I was kind of surprised to see the Cardinals only averaged 3 ypc running the ball . Our average had to be 4 at least on 17 carries. Last week PC said we needed to be able to run to move the chains. Our oopponent really couldn't run much but it didn't hurt their passing game in the slightest.

[NorthHawk]

Man, what a terrible performance. All those chances & the Seahawks failed to take advantage of any of them. I feel sick to my stomach right now.

We area as good as our record shows.
We'll probably win a few more games, but we're heading for a losing season.
In the past couple of years it was Russ's great play that gave us some wins but like I said in another thread a couple of weeks back he looks like he's resigned to the fact we aren't
going anywhere this year. I think he's going to ask to be traded and if not will play next year then be gone and Pete looks like he may have had enough, too.

[Uppercut]

To bad they have to play on MNF. WTF is looking better and I expect a loss

[obiken]

It's always nice when you're team is doing terrible and some other team has your first round pick. You literally have nothing to do look forward to. You can't even suck to look forward to a new high first round pick stud.

Great point! Should the league limit the number of first rounders to 1 per trade to keep a coach who is in trouble, from mortgaging the future of the successor that has to take over? I dont have an answer ASHF, but you could make a case either way.

[Vegaseahawk]

Now that I've cooled off a bit, I want to acknowledge the few positives I saw in yesterday's game. I would like to give Wags his props. That man is a true stud, going all out on every play. Lockett had the big pass play too. He showed up. That's it. Everyone else stunk up the
The Cardinals, despite trying to give us so many chances, played very clean football in 2 phases of the game. The football gods really did smile on Colt McCoy. It seemed that he pulled some major Houdini moves when we had him pinned in the pocket a few times. It reminded me of how frustrated I used to get watching John Elway elude Jacob Green back in the day. He was finding open guys when plays collapsed like RW used to do not too long ago. Zach Ertz owned us too. What's with Russ assuming the fetal position now when he get's in trouble?? He used to be able to scramble out of that $h!t. Now he just drops & curls into a ball when the pocket collapses. He ain't that old. I heard the 12's booing as early as the 2nd quarter, & who could blame them. I feel sorry for the folks that paid hundreds of dollars for a ticket to that debacle.

[Hawktawk]

Russ last offseason following the Rams game which was his most brutal playoff game ever .
“ I’m tired of getting hit so much “.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . I think Russ has been hit too much and is getting gun shy . Qbs who get hit too much sail throws , read the rush instead of the field . Russell’s first 2 sacks were mystifying . The one he stood there and got swallowed up on that first drive . But one of them we had Travis Homer one on one with Chandler jones too so WTF. McCoy gave Russ and everyone a clinic on succeeding with pressure on you .

[NorthHawk]

I think he knows we aren't going anywhere this year so when the pocket gets pressured, he gives himself up unlike in prior years when he would fight out
of it and try to make a play. It's a business decision on his part is my guess.

[obiken]

I think he knows we aren't going anywhere this year so when the pocket gets pressured, he gives himself up unlike in prior years when he would fight out
of it and try to make a play. It's a business decision on his part is my guess.

HT I am not convince RW is washed up as you and the rest of the gang, and no question I been wrong before. But I think he was rushed back too soon, does not have the arsenal like other teams, and is behind a bad OLine. Now, he will probably make protecting his body the #1 priority, not making killer plays, can you blame him?

[NorthHawk]

I am not convince RW is washed up as you and the rest of the gang, and no question I been wrong before. But I think he was rushed back too soon, does not have the arsenal like other teams, and is behind a bad OLine. Now, he will probably make protecting his body the #1 priority, not making killer plays, can you blame him?

I'm not in any way saying he's washed up, rather that he knows this team isn't going anywhere so it's best for him to stay as healthy as he can.

[obiken]

I'm not in any way saying he's washed up, rather that he knows this team isn't going anywhere so it's best for him to stay as healthy as he can.

Okay, and IF you get rid of RW its to get on with the tear down and rebuild. But to say as River has said that you would not get 3 first rounders for him, come on! Deshaun Watson is getting 3 1st and 2nd's with legal issues hanging all over him. Sorry RW on the open market, teams like Pitts, NY Giants, WFT, or the Broncos would be all over him. Moreover this is a bad draft for QB's, and I think they would be all in on him. Finger issues take longer to come back from than people think, some of those throws were B A D yesterday and they were not due to RW's bad judgement.

Pete has to go, what's happening to PC is what happened to USC before he bailed. Good young coaches, he doesn't change schemes, and he got left in the dust. He was totally out coached by Kingsbury yesterday. I am a Ducks alum, and I was on the other side of this with Chippy at Oregon.

[Hawktawk]

Washed up is a strong term . I’m not there yet . Freaked out and gun shy? Yes . I can think of very few who reverse the trend and only with a change of scenery and a scheme that protects them better . I’ll give a famous example . Kurt Warner was looking like a flash in the pan , hearing footsteps in the pocket , benched for Marc Bulger a few years after a Lombardi . Shipped off to the Giants to be cannon fodder until Eli was ready . Then came AZ which made him a HOF QB. There’s all kinds of theories with Russ , a bad concussion he hid , just too many hits , nobody knows . And I know the greats blow a read now and then but it’s getting to be pretty often . Why is this happening with a 10 year vet and one of the most accurate passers in history ? Somethings changed . It’s still shocking watching him be mortal .

[NorthHawk]

We may not have a choice.
If he demands a trade, we either comply with the demand or keep him for another year and only get a 3rd round Comp pick.
So really if he wanted to leave we will be forced to trade him.

[RiverDog]

We may not have a choice. If he demands a trade, we either comply with the demand or keep him for another year and only get a 3rd round Comp pick. So really if he wanted to leave we will be forced to trade him.

I've been saying this all along. The ball is in Russell's court. He has a no trade clause, so if the Detroit Lions were to offer 3 first rounders, he could say hell no. Besides, why would he want to go to a team that has just mortgaged their future by surrendering so many top draft picks? That severely limits the market and what we could expect to receive in a trade. No way do we get three #1's for Russell, especially the way he's been playing lately.

[TriCitySam]

Not sure about the "out coached' line, it's a popular one for fans to whine about and the first thing they want is to fire coach. History says that usually is not the answer, and we should also know that Pete can coach football. We've gone through 3 OC's and not much has changed, and while Pete has a "run first" philosophy, that's not the problem. In fact, the best we've looked in the past few weeks has been running the ball. I do know that there's not a single fan or sports writer - regardless - that knows more about coaching football than the coaching staff; I mean this is not Jerry Glanville - and we know it's not a simple fix or it would be done by now. Talent issues aside, the longer it goes on, the more you look at RW and that blank look he has on his face so frequently.....and wonder. Not that we know....

[Rambo2014]

LOL I could have told you how bad you were prior to the season and I think I did mention maybe 5-6 wins.

I feel sort of bad for your slide. When we were closer it was more fun to needle you.

Hey, maybe in a few

GO RAMS

[RiverDog]

Not sure about the "out coached' line, it's a popular one for fans to whine about and the first thing they want is to fire coach. History says that usually is not the answer..

It does? How do you qualify such a statement?

There are four head coaches in the NFL that have been with their teams longer than Pete has been with his: Belichick (2000), Sean Payton (2006), Mike Tomlin (2007), and John Harbaugh (2008). There's only two others that have been with their teams since 2017: Andy Reid (2013) and Mike Zimmer (2014). The rest of them, 25 coaches, or over 75% of the league, have been with their teams for less than 5 years.

Tomlin hasn't been to the SB in 11 years. Payton hasn't been to one in 12 seasons. Harbaugh hasn't been to one in 9 years. Zimmer never has been to one. Out of those 6 coaches, only Belichick and Reid have been to the SB in the past 9 years, so please don't tell me that history shows that sticking with a head coach is a better option than firing them unless you have some facts to support such a claim.

Let's take a look at our own history of firing head coaches: First, we fired Jack Patera and, after an interim HC, we hired Chuck Knox. Ground Chuck never made it to a Super Bowl, but I'm pretty confident that most Hawk fans feel that was a successful changing of the guard. Then we went through two bad coaches, Tom Flores and Dennis Erickson, both that ended up getting fired and that many of us attribute to bad ownership. We then hired Mike Holmgren, who took us to our first Super Bowl and next to Pete, gave us the best football our franchise has ever seen. We then fired him, hired Mora for one season, and fired him.

That's 6 fired coaches (Patera, Knox, Flores, Erickson, Holmgren, and Mora) and 3 successful replacements (Knox, Holmgren, and Carroll), a 50% record of fired coaches to successful replacements. And I'll also note that each one of those successful coaches had their team in the playoffs in their very first season.

I'm perfectly comfortable with those odds.

[I-5]

LOL I could have told you how bad you were prior to the season and I think I did mention maybe 5-6 wins.

I feel sort of bad for your slide. When we were closer it was more fun to needle you.

Hey, maybe in a few

GO RAMS

Thanks but don't worry about us...worry about the Lambs. For a team full of big names, they don't look that impressive. They looked manhandled by the last 2 teams they played, and almost lost to Geno Smith lol!

[I-5]

But I think he was rushed back too soon

I agree 100%, but I think the only person rushing him back was Russell Wilson himself. I wanted to see if Geno could build on what he was doing, and not just vs Jacksonville.

[obiken]

Not sure about the "out coached' line, it's a popular one for fans to whine about and the first thing they want is to fire coach. History says that usually is not the answer, and we should also know that Pete can coach football. We've gone through 3 OC's and not much has changed, and while Pete has a "run first" philosophy, that's not the problem. In fact, the best we've looked in the past few weeks has been running the ball. I do know that there's not a single fan or sports writer - regardless - that knows more about coaching football than the coaching staff; I mean this is not Jerry Glanville - and we know it's not a simple fix or it would be done by now. Talent issues aside, the longer it goes on, the more you look at RW and that blank look he has on his face so frequently.....and wonder. Not that we know....

We can all agree TS that RW operates better in a freewheeling backyard ball offense, than a stodgy one. Moreover, and Hawky has touched on this a little, he is a sideline kind of guy, he is not big on throwing down the middle, never has been. TE's are not big on his resume. In order to throw deep sideline routs you have to have a running game. IF Lockett, and Doug Baldwin were 6-5 that would work, but when the pressure is on you cannot hit a little 5-10 wide receiver on the sideline. I am NOT forgetting what Pete did for us, he WILL be in the HOF, but in the age of the Salary cap you cannot pay defensive players millions a year. What makes Tommy the best is his willingness to take pay cuts, his tremendous will to win. Sorry, if there is a knock on RW, its that he wants to win titles but he is not willing to make TB type sacrifices. Jamal Adams was a waste. No question RW is in as big a slump as Aaron Rogers, but AR came out of it with talent, Russ I think will leave to find that kind of talent.

[RiverDog]

But I think he was rushed back too soon

I

agree 100%, but I think the only person rushing him back was Russell Wilson himself. I wanted to see if Geno could build on what he was doing, and not just vs Jacksonville.

You can drop the "I think" from your statement. It was Russell's decision as to when to return.

But I'm still not convinced that his finger is hindering his play. We have to take the man for his word, and if Russell says it's not a problem, then it's not a problem.

[Aseahawkfan]

This team is the result of bad team management when you reach a point where your stud QB can no longer carry all the team's weaknesses. Let's be real here. Russell's ability to make a bad O-line look serviceable in the pass and run game is what was fueling this team for the past 4 or 5 years, ever since the defense fell off a cliff. Now we're seeing what this team's talent level really is when the stud QB can no longer scramble and dig out wins when the team around him is mediocre because the coach and GM have been drafting badly, trading away picks for players that don't stick around, and just overall bad roster and team management.

Russell has been saving Pete's ass for years since the defense became pedestrian as the Legion of Boom aged and eroded without any suitable replacement for that elite unit. The defensive line eroded when Bennett and Avril could no longer go. And even the LB crew is old and slower now. Pete and John haven't done a good job finding replacement talent as they started trading picks, making reaches, and are now a step behind the rest of the league rather than a step ahead like when they first got here.

Russ is no longer able to hid the terrible roster management. I'm glad because it's been bad for a while now. Pete and John are no longer close to an elite head coach and GM combo. Their failed picks are many. Their inability to build an O-line is legendary. Now they can't even rebuild a defense which used to be their strength.

We need new blood with a new eye for talent at the top because John and Pete are not getting it done when it comes to roster management.

[curmudgeon]

Spot on. Personnel management has been abysmal for a very long time. Rock bottom is here. Blow it up.

[Hawktawk]

I can’t disagree . Like PC said after Russ got hurt “ I probably wouldn’t have lasted this long without him “ indeed . It’s just shocking to see Russ look so pedestrian . I bet you could make a solid 20 minute highlight reel of just his escapes . Gotta give PC and JS credit for drafting him but he’s been sacked more than any qb in history by quite a bit first 10 seasons . We can debate why , some of them are his fault . But I’m with I5 I was interested to see at least one more game with Geno after his surgical performance vs the jags . But the point is he was also sacked 13 times , 5 versus the Steelers so it’s not just Russ getting sacked behind the line . Did PC and JS put so much on the guys back it’s breaking now ? Did they old him out in 10 seasons ? It’s a bittersweet memory . The best of times but now it’s the worst of times because we have been to the mountain and seen the promised land . Now we’re in the tunnel with a light coming our way .

[TriCitySam]

Laugh all you want, but your example is not a fair evaluation. You wanna just look at the Seahawks? Or you just look at bad coaches being replaced by successful coaches. Sure you can get to 50%. We saw what happened with Marty Schottenheimer - they have never got close to his level. Or Dallas trying to replace Jimmy Johnson; or did Texas improve after firing Mack Brown? Philly firing Andy Reid? Raiders fire Gruden and then roll thru 9 coaches trying to get back to what they left. Easy to replace a Bobby Petrino and show improvement, but not when you fire successful coaches, that doesn't get close to 50%.

[obiken]

Laugh all you want, but your example is not a fair evaluation. You wanna just look at the Seahawks? Or you just look at bad coaches being replaced by successful coaches. Sure you can get to 50%. We saw what happened with Marty Schottenheimer - they have never got close to his level. Or Dallas trying to replace Jimmy Johnson; or did Texas improve after firing Mack Brown? Philly firing Andy Reid? Raiders fire Gruden and then roll thru 9 coaches trying to get back to what they left. Easy to replace a Bobby Petrino and show improvement, but not when you fire successful coaches, that doesn't get close to 50%.

He is in Free fall TS, he was whining about the refs, and we got SHUT OUT, he walks out on a presser because he doesnt have the answers! Really Tri, really? Stick a fork in him, either Russ goes, or he does, I choose Russ.

[RiverDog]

Laugh all you want, but your example is not a fair evaluation. You wanna just look at the Seahawks? Or you just look at bad coaches being replaced by successful coaches. Sure you can get to 50%. We saw what happened with Marty Schottenheimer - they have never got close to his level. Or Dallas trying to replace Jimmy Johnson; or did Texas improve after firing Mack Brown? Philly firing Andy Reid? Raiders fire Gruden and then roll thru 9 coaches trying to get back to what they left. Easy to replace a Bobby Petrino and show improvement, but not when you fire successful coaches, that doesn't get close to 50%.

Just a correction on some of your observations. Jimmy Johnson and Jon Gruden weren't fired or forced out, they quit their teams. Big difference. And I'm sure if you ask Eagles fans that in retrospect, and even in light of Reid's subsequent success in KC, that most of them are good with the firing of Andy Reid in 2013 as just 4 years later, they got their first and only Lombardi with his replacement. Bad example.

Anytime you have as high of a turnover (over 75% of NFL head coaches with less than 5 years tenure), we both can find plenty of individual examples of failures as well as successes. My point was that you have not come anywhere close to justifying your statement that History says that usually is not the answer (firing the HC). It certainly hasn't been the case with our experience with this franchise.

[TriCitySam]

Depends on how you view the issues with Gruden and Johnson....truth is they had a mutual parting due to disagreements with the direction of the franchise, which when it comes to owner vs coach means you've go 3 choices: go along with the owner, resign or get fired. Fans aside, Philly has never had a coach as good as Andy Reid, and you can't say he wouldn't have won a Lombardi as well - but it was 5 years before they turned the corner. That's the issue I don't buy into: fire a coach for one bad year, but willing to accept 5 years of lower performance. You say that's proof it works and I say that's proof its a big gamble. We did OK taking on a winner with Knox, but moving to Flores and Erickson was no improvement, it took 6 years to improve and only changed because we hired a proven winner in Holmgren. Bottom line, I don't believe the Eagles problem was that Andy Reid couldn't coach - nor is it that Pete can't coach. Both are winners, and you'll never convince me theirs a 50% chance of improving the franchise: if it takes 5 years to turn the corner, it wasn't coaching

[RiverDog]

Depends on how you view the issues with Gruden and Johnson....truth is they had a mutual parting due to disagreements with the direction of the franchise, which when it comes to owner vs coach means you've go 3 choices: go along with the owner, resign or get fired.

The point is that neither of those coaches leaving had anything to do with their past performance.

Fans aside, Philly has never had a coach as good as Andy Reid, and you can't say he wouldn't have won a Lombardi as well - but it was 5 years before they turned the corner. That's the issue I don't buy into: fire a coach for one bad year, but willing to accept 5 years of lower performance. You say that's proof it works and I say that's proof its a big gamble. We did OK taking on a winner with Knox, but moving to Flores and Erickson was no improvement, it took 6 years to improve and only changed because we hired a proven winner in Holmgren. Bottom line, I don't believe the Eagles problem was that Andy Reid couldn't coach - nor is it that Pete can't coach. Both are winners, and you'll never convince me theirs a 50% chance of improving the franchise: if it takes 5 years to turn the corner, it wasn't coaching

Of course, we can't say that Reid wouldn't have eventually won a Super Bowl with Philly. We also can't say that Bill Belichick wouldn't have won 6 Super Bowls with the Cleveland Browns had they not fired him. Our discussion wasn't about our speculations, it was about historical facts.

Once again, this isn't just about "one bad year", at least not for me. It's about 7 years of disappointments, 7 years of not improving, 7 years of bad draft choices, bad trades, and bad FA signings. Don't you recall our disagreement at the start of the season when I sated that this season was it for me, that if we weren't a SB contender that I was "off the bandwagon"? A lot of this could see this coming while others were blinded by their very admirable faith.

I'm not disagreeing that firing Pete is a gamble. Of course, it is. But so, too, is retaining him a gamble. We're gambling that he can turn things around. If we lose that gamble, we've wasted another year chasing rainbows looking for the pot of gold.

[NorthHawk]

I think it’s a bigger gamble keeping Pete and hoping he can turn it around than replacing him.
His history here is reaching the top and then a slow slide into mediocrity or maybe insignificance.
I thank Pete for giving us a Super Bowl championship, but all things must pass and it’s time for a
fresh start. We need something to look forward to instead of expecting another middling year.

[obiken]

I think it’s a bigger gamble keeping Pete and hoping he can turn it around than replacing him.
His history here is reaching the top and then a slow slide into mediocrity or maybe insignificance.
I thank Pete for giving us a Super Bowl championship, but all things must pass and it’s time for a
fresh start. We need something to look forward to instead of expecting another middling year.

I agree!!! Its like IF you put Mr. Row your boat, IE PJ Fleck at USC its money for 4 to 5 years. Its all the Tony Robbins, positive thinking stuff that turns to crap after you've listened to it 150 times. That's why Fleck should NEVER go to the NFL. It took about 5 years in Seattle for people like ET, RS, and BM to tune out the poo poo. As Holmy was saying on KJR yesterday, IF you have Franchise QB you can build everything else, but he doesnt see RW sticking around either. Bienamy, Kellen Moore, Roman, or Josh Mac from the Pats would be better than Pete right now. Our offense is mutt food right now.

[RiverDog]

I think it’s a bigger gamble keeping Pete and hoping he can turn it around than replacing him. His history here is reaching the top and then a slow slide into mediocrity or maybe insignificance. I thank Pete for giving us a Super Bowl championship, but all things must pass and it’s time for a fresh start. We need something to look forward to instead of expecting another middling year.

Agreed in all respects. It's been a long time since I don't have a horse in the playoff race BEFORE Thanksgiving.

This could be an epic year for head football coaches in this state. WSU's Nick Rolovich was fired because he refused to get vaccinated and Jeremy Lake at UDub got fired because he pulled a Bobby Knight on one of his players. Both of them got canned in the middle of the season. Pete could make it 3 for 3.

[TriCitySam]

We'll, I simply don't get anybody's that is disappointed in the last 7 years. Other than NE, who has done better? Answer is nobody. Not GB, not KC, not Baltimore. So, so hard to win. Completely unrealistic.

[Aseahawkfan]

We'll, I simply don't get anybody's that is disappointed in the last 7 years. Other than NE, who has done better? Answer is nobody. Not GB, not KC, not Baltimore. So, so hard to win. Completely unrealistic.

I'm not disappointed. But every coach and GM combo no matter how good seems to reach a point where they're hanging on to the old days and not adjusting to a changing league. It's extremely hard to reach the apex of a coach's top time on a given team. Pete seems to have reached his apex and is on the downside of it. He doesn't know when to let go of players. He's making trades for players we don't keep. He's no longer focusing on the draft or finding hidden gems in free agency. He's looking for quick fixes with costly trades that don't provide the fix. Pete wants the good times at the apex to keep going, but the personnel that allowed that apex to be reached are gone and the players that replaced those apex players are nowhere near as good. He needs to retool from the ground up and I don't think he has it it in him. I don't think he wants to go through the hard rebuild process trading players like Bobby or rebuilding by searching under every stone for great players.

It was a good run. Pete has set the bar very high for any new coach and GM combo. But it's over. Pete don't seem to have another big run in him. He missed his opportunity for the back to back Super Bowls with the terrible play call. It's all been downhill from there.

Time to thank Pete for the great times and find a coach with the energy and vision that comes when someone wants to make a name for themselves. Pete has his name and his amazing legacy. He's not as motivated as he was when he first arrived to turn us into something great.