The Offense ignored

[NorthHawk]

Guys this is simple, .

Its really not that simple. They have already spent their $ on the OL and it isn't performing. The answer isn't throwing more money at it. Lets say they made a big splash and stupidly overpaid for one of the OL FA this year, at around 6 mil/yr. What if that guy doesn't work out. Then do you just sign somebody else? And then somebody else? That's just it. They have a value for each player and over all position and haven't found the value on the OL like they have on the DL.

So you just say well, we missed and spent a lot of money, too bad - and patch it up with duct tape?

[mykc14]

Guys this is simple, .

Its really not that simple. They have already spent their $ on the OL and it isn't performing. The answer isn't throwing more money at it. Lets say they made a big splash and stupidly overpaid for one of the OL FA this year, at around 6 mil/yr. What if that guy doesn't work out. Then do you just sign somebody else? And then somebody else? That's just it. They have a value for each player and over all position and haven't found the value on the OL like they have on the DL.

So you just say well, we missed and spent a lot of money, too bad - and patch it up with duct tape?

Unfortunately Yes and No sometimes.

No, you continue to have your value for players/positions and if the opportunity arises you jump on it, but you don't overpay/reach on a draft pick. You upgrade when the cost/opportunity comes, not just because there is a need. I am sure they felt pretty good about their OL going into last season, injuries and regression (Carp) showed they weren't very good. IMO I think they like what they have coming back and feel comfortable if they had to start the guys already on the roster. They didn't see any cost effective upgrades so they didn't pull the trigger. Lets say a HOF Tackle is on the open market and the Hawks can get him for cheap because he wants to win a championship, then they should jump all over it, but that doesn't usually happen.

Yes, IMO there is no way Carp would still be on this team if he weren't drafted by us. He is here because they missed and spent a lot (first round post CBA $) on him and are stuck because of the Cap hit involved with releasing him. His ineptitude was duct taped with McQ. He will still be on the roster this year and I am sure the FO is hoping he turns into a starting caliber RG, but plan on using a patch job (Bowe/Bailey/another guy they signed this offseason/unproven draft pick) if he doesn't work out. And if he doesn't work out they can be done with him after the season and spend his $ on a RG they like better. Two years of patch job RG because of his lack of productivity.

This is a problem all NFL teams run into. Usually on both sides of the ball, we are simply lucky that it is only on the offense. If PH doesn't work out (continues to be injured/play dramatically declines for some reason/etc) we are stuck with him until it is cost effective to relase him. In that situation we would have to have a duct tape patch work WR corps because you simply can't overspend on another receiver because you have too much $ going to that position already.

[RiverDog]

Yes he did look horrible but the fact remains, you don't make the decision to replace a first round pick after nine games in his rookie season. Imagine if they would have given up on Tate that quickly (and he was a 2nd rounder).

They ultimately made the decision that it wasn't going to work after he'd gone through minicamp and lacked the skill to handle the job which is far quicker than most front offices are willing to move on from a first round pick and yet you still contend they should have been faster?

I'm sorry Riv but that just makes no sense. This is all hindsight being spun right now. A the end of the day what this really proves is that it hurts your franchise badly when you miss on a 1st round pick.

There will be somewhere around 15 Offensive linemen at the start of training camp like there always is and there will be 10-11 on the roster come regular season like there always is. Right now there are 7 linemen on the roster. Do the math.

Apples and oranges. It's not as if they could have given up on Tate as a wide receiver and made him a running back. The Hawks only played Carpenter for 9 games at RT before they decided they'd seen enough and opted to move him inside. I say that our brain trust knew very early that Carpenter wasn't going to be a tackle, and not j/b he played poorly as one might rationalize as his being a rookie, but primarily because he didn't have the quickness to play the position, and that's something that you can't coach up especially after a major knee injury. If there was any topic that we all agreed on back then, it was that Carpenter didn't have a future at RT. It was pretty obvious even to MMQB's like us.

[kalibane]

No it's not apples to oranges. A first round pick is a first round pick and a lot of rookies don't perform right away regardless of position. It's why Jake Long started at RT his rookie year and then moved to LT after he showed he could play there. The Chiefs did the same thing last year with Eric Fisher. People really need to stop abusing the "apples to oranges" idiom. The option to transition to a new position has nothing to do with whether a player is capable of playing their intended position or not. Either they perform or they don't. And your contention is that because a player with a first round grade didn't perform in 9 games then it was time to give up on him playing that position forever. That is incredibly short sighted.

They were hoping Carp would rebound after his knee injury and improve. But when he got back off the ACL and went through minicamp it was clear he no longer had the mobility to handle the edge. That's why acting like they should have signed a RT for big money last offseason is ridiculous. They didn't know how Carp's knee would respond. All they knew was they had a first round grade on him before the knee injury.

It's also why it's stupid to think they should have gone out and spent 42 million dollars on Andy Levitre when they were planning on using Carp's first round talent there.


Now Roger Saffold... Um last I checked he couldn't hold down either tackle position and was being used as a guard by the Rams. Then the Raiders gave him an 8 million dollar a year contract. Is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have been in competition for him at that price?

Zane Beadles - How many times are we going to go through the process of overvaluing the linemen that play in front of Peyton Manning? He makes all his linemen look way better than they were because he gets into the right play and gets the ball out so quickly. He got 6 million a year from the Jags. So is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have paid 6 million a year to guard who's never made the pro-bowl?

Jon Asamoah - 2 things Atlanta was negotiating with Asamoah before Free Agency opened. Is it your contention that Seattle should have been competing with Atlanta to sign Asamoah instead of focusing on trying to resign Bennett and Tate? Secondly Asamoah comes from Andy Reid's system in KC which isn't a zone blocking scheme. He went to Atlanta which isn't a zone blocking scheme. Is it your contention that the Hawks should have gone after a man blocking Guard to the tune of 5 million a year to fit into their zone scheme?

[RiverDog]

No it's not apples to oranges. A first round pick is a first round pick and a lot of rookies don't perform right away regardless of position. It's why Jake Long started at RT his rookie year and then moved to LT after he showed he could play there. The Chiefs did the same thing last year with Eric Fisher. People really need to stop abusing the "apples to oranges" idiom. The option to transition to a new position has nothing to do with whether a player is capable of playing their intended position or not. Either they perform or they don't. And your contention is that because a player with a first round grade didn't perform in 9 games then it was time to give up on him playing that position forever. That is incredibly short sighted.

They were hoping Carp would rebound after his knee injury and improve. But when he got back off the ACL and went through minicamp it was clear he no longer had the mobility to handle the edge. That's why acting like they should have signed a RT for big money last offseason is ridiculous. They didn't know how Carp's knee would respond. All they knew was they had a first round grade on him before the knee injury.

It's also why it's stupid to think they should have gone out and spent 42 million dollars on Andy Levitre when they were planning on using Carp's first round talent there.


Now Roger Saffold... Um last I checked he couldn't hold down either tackle position and was being used as a guard by the Rams. Then the Raiders gave him an 8 million dollar a year contract. Is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have been in competition for him at that price?

Zane Beadles - How many times are we going to go through the process of overvaluing the linemen that play in front of Peyton Manning? He makes all his linemen look way better than they were because he gets into the right play and gets the ball out so quickly. He got 6 million a year from the Jags. So is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have paid 6 million a year to guard who's never made the pro-bowl?

Jon Asamoah - 2 things Atlanta was negotiating with Asamoah before Free Agency opened. Is it your contention that Seattle should have been competing with Atlanta to sign Asamoah instead of focusing on trying to resign Bennett and Tate? Secondly Asamoah comes from Andy Reid's system in KC which isn't a zone blocking scheme. He went to Atlanta which isn't a zone blocking scheme. Is it your contention that the Hawks should have gone after a man blocking Guard to the tune of 5 million a year to fit into their zone scheme?

My point is, as you agreed, is that there is almost always an option to move a tackle inside to guard if he doesn't cut it at tackle. Therefore, we threw in the towel on Carpenter as a tackle much sooner than we would have had there been no such option available. Had there not been the option, he might still be playing it, or at the very least, would have been playing it far longer than the 9 games that he did.

But with Tate, there wasn't any such option. We had to stick it out with him, and hope that he improved. Not only that, but Tate's rookie performance at WR/PR wasn't nearly as bad as Carpenter's at RT, and Tate always had the tools to be a very good WR, which would justify a longer learning curve. Carpenter didn't have the tools to be even an adequate RT, as evidenced by the short amount of time he spent at RT and the fact that he's never returned even though we've had a need on multiple occasions.

That's why the comparison is apples to oranges.

[kalibane]

No it's not River. This is about the offensive line not the right tackle. (actually this thread was about the offense in general). You're trying to hedge your argument because you forgot the sequence of events.

At the end of the day the front office used a first round draft choice on Carpenter whether he was a Guard or a Tackle... it doesn't matter. Even if they figured they could use him at multiple positions the investment remains static. Even if what you say is true, the idea was they would get a first round talent at either T or G. And if they had given up on him being a tackle in his first year they wouldn't have waited until two weeks before training camp in his second year to announce his position change. None of what you're saying is consistant with any sort of logical thought.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in this thread you want to base your entire argument about the RT position but in the other thread you went out of your way to move focus away from the RT position because G is a need too.

Bottomline, in the first two years this front office gave Unger a very nice extentions. Then they proceeded to used 2 first rounders and a third rounder on Offensive Linemen. That covers 4 positions on the Offensive Line and I defy you to find a team that invested more draft Capital in their Offensive Line in a 2 year stretch. It sucks that it didn't work out, but acting like they should have turned around and signed a 6-7 million dollar free agent at RT the year after your first round draft choice tore his ACL is kneejerk to say the least.

You want to see what kind of guy makes those moves? Look no further than Reggie McKenzie letting go of Valedeer for the right to pay Roger Saffold 8 million a year. It's capricious and wasteful.

And on top of all that, they also had the option to just use Tate as a Punt Returner, the same way they only use Devin Hester as a punt returner in Chicago and not a defensive back like he was drafted to be. But they didn't, they stuck with Tate and tried to develop him which is what you do when you invest a 2nd round pick on someone.

[briwas101]

No it's not River. This is about the offensive line not the right tackle. (actually this thread was about the offense in general). You're trying to hedge your argument because you forgot the sequence of events.

At the end of the day the front office used a first round draft choice on Carpenter whether he was a Guard or a Tackle... it doesn't matter. Even if they figured they could use him at multiple positions the investment remains static. Even if what you say is true, the idea was they would get a first round talent at either T or G. And if they had given up on him being a tackle in his first year they wouldn't have waited until two weeks before training camp in his second year to announce his position change. None of what you're saying is consistant with any sort of logical thought.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in this thread you want to base your entire argument about the RT position but in the other thread you went out of your way to move focus away from the RT position because G is a need too.

Bottomline, in the first two years this front office gave Unger a very nice extentions. Then they proceeded to used 2 first rounders and a third rounder on Offensive Linemen. That covers 4 positions on the Offensive Line and I defy you to find a team that invested more draft Capital in their Offensive Line in a 2 year stretch. It sucks that it didn't work out, but acting like they should have turned around and signed a 6-7 million dollar free agent at RT the year after your first round draft choice tore his ACL is kneejerk to say the least.

You want to see what kind of guy makes those moves? Look no further than Reggie McKenzie letting go of Valedeer for the right to pay Roger Saffold 8 million a year. It's capricious and wasteful.

And on top of all that, they also had the option to just use Tate as a Punt Returner, the same way they only use Devin Hester as a punt returner in Chicago and not a defensive back like he was drafted to be. But they didn't, they stuck with Tate and tried to develop him which is what you do when you invest a 2nd round pick on someone.

I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

You also make it sound like overpaying an expensive FA is the only other option.

They could have drafted OL early last year.

They could have drafted OL early the year before last.

They could have TRIED AGAIN at drafting someone earlier, but they decided that 7th rounders and people who aren't good enough to play on the other 31 teams would be good enough here.

Yes, they failed miserably with their previous attempts in the draft, basically as bad as could be. That doesn't mean they should refuse to try to improve through the draft.

Unfortunately we need linemen RIGHT NOW and because of Pete and John's ineptitude on offense it looks like we will not get the problem taken care of this year. Unless their first 5 picks are all linemen I don't see us improving.

[mykc14]

No it's not River. This is about the offensive line not the right tackle. (actually this thread was about the offense in general). You're trying to hedge your argument because you forgot the sequence of events.

At the end of the day the front office used a first round draft choice on Carpenter whether he was a Guard or a Tackle... it doesn't matter. Even if they figured they could use him at multiple positions the investment remains static. Even if what you say is true, the idea was they would get a first round talent at either T or G. And if they had given up on him being a tackle in his first year they wouldn't have waited until two weeks before training camp in his second year to announce his position change. None of what you're saying is consistant with any sort of logical thought.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in this thread you want to base your entire argument about the RT position but in the other thread you went out of your way to move focus away from the RT position because G is a need too.

Bottomline, in the first two years this front office gave Unger a very nice extentions. Then they proceeded to used 2 first rounders and a third rounder on Offensive Linemen. That covers 4 positions on the Offensive Line and I defy you to find a team that invested more draft Capital in their Offensive Line in a 2 year stretch. It sucks that it didn't work out, but acting like they should have turned around and signed a 6-7 million dollar free agent at RT the year after your first round draft choice tore his ACL is kneejerk to say the least.

You want to see what kind of guy makes those moves? Look no further than Reggie McKenzie letting go of Valedeer for the right to pay Roger Saffold 8 million a year. It's capricious and wasteful.

And on top of all that, they also had the option to just use Tate as a Punt Returner, the same way they only use Devin Hester as a punt returner in Chicago and not a defensive back like he was drafted to be. But they didn't, they stuck with Tate and tried to develop him which is what you do when you invest a 2nd round pick on someone.

I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

You also make it sound like overpaying an expensive FA is the only other option.

They could have drafted OL early last year.

They could have drafted OL early the year before last.

They could have TRIED AGAIN at drafting someone earlier, but they decided that 7th rounders and people who aren't good enough to play on the other 31 teams would be good enough here.

Yes, they failed miserably with their previous attempts in the draft, basically as bad as could be. That doesn't mean they should refuse to try to improve through the draft.

Unfortunately we need linemen RIGHT NOW and because of Pete and John's ineptitude on offense it looks like we will not get the problem taken care of this year. Unless their first 5 picks are all linemen I don't see us improving.

They did create an offense that won the SB, so ineptitude is probably a bit of a stretch, but yes the picks of both Carp and Moffitt has led to a weakness that needs to improve. Who says we won't take care of it this year, we still have the draft and Bailey and Bowe have the chance to be above average (which would be an upgrade over last year). Draft a guard or tackle early and our line will be much improved from last year, IMO. Most of the year we had McQ at LT and Carp at RG. McQ was the worst LT in the league (probably because he shouldn't have ever lined up there in the first place). Despite the horrible OL play we still managed to have a pretty good season. It won't take much to improve on what we threw out there for most of the season.

[mykc14]

No it's not River. This is about the offensive line not the right tackle. (actually this thread was about the offense in general). You're trying to hedge your argument because you forgot the sequence of events.

At the end of the day the front office used a first round draft choice on Carpenter whether he was a Guard or a Tackle... it doesn't matter. Even if they figured they could use him at multiple positions the investment remains static. Even if what you say is true, the idea was they would get a first round talent at either T or G. And if they had given up on him being a tackle in his first year they wouldn't have waited until two weeks before training camp in his second year to announce his position change. None of what you're saying is consistant with any sort of logical thought.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in this thread you want to base your entire argument about the RT position but in the other thread you went out of your way to move focus away from the RT position because G is a need too.

Bottomline, in the first two years this front office gave Unger a very nice extentions. Then they proceeded to used 2 first rounders and a third rounder on Offensive Linemen. That covers 4 positions on the Offensive Line and I defy you to find a team that invested more draft Capital in their Offensive Line in a 2 year stretch. It sucks that it didn't work out, but acting like they should have turned around and signed a 6-7 million dollar free agent at RT the year after your first round draft choice tore his ACL is kneejerk to say the least.

You want to see what kind of guy makes those moves? Look no further than Reggie McKenzie letting go of Valedeer for the right to pay Roger Saffold 8 million a year. It's capricious and wasteful.

And on top of all that, they also had the option to just use Tate as a Punt Returner, the same way they only use Devin Hester as a punt returner in Chicago and not a defensive back like he was drafted to be. But they didn't, they stuck with Tate and tried to develop him which is what you do when you invest a 2nd round pick on someone.

I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

You also make it sound like overpaying an expensive FA is the only other option.

They could have drafted OL early last year.

They could have drafted OL early the year before last.

They could have TRIED AGAIN at drafting someone earlier, but they decided that 7th rounders and people who aren't good enough to play on the other 31 teams would be good enough here.

Yes, they failed miserably with their previous attempts in the draft, basically as bad as could be. That doesn't mean they should refuse to try to improve through the draft.

Unfortunately we need linemen RIGHT NOW and because of Pete and John's ineptitude on offense it looks like we will not get the problem taken care of this year. Unless their first 5 picks are all linemen I don't see us improving.

Also, don't forget that they brought in everybody on that offense besides Unger. Tate, Baldwin, Kearse, Okung, Miller, Willson, RW, Beast Mode, etc. All brought in by PC and JS. In fact it could be argued that the only position they have had trouble drafting has been OL and that, I suspect, has just as much to do with Cable's input as PC and JS.

[Anthony]

No it's not River. This is about the offensive line not the right tackle. (actually this thread was about the offense in general). You're trying to hedge your argument because you forgot the sequence of events.

At the end of the day the front office used a first round draft choice on Carpenter whether he was a Guard or a Tackle... it doesn't matter. Even if they figured they could use him at multiple positions the investment remains static. Even if what you say is true, the idea was they would get a first round talent at either T or G. And if they had given up on him being a tackle in his first year they wouldn't have waited until two weeks before training camp in his second year to announce his position change. None of what you're saying is consistant with any sort of logical thought.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in this thread you want to base your entire argument about the RT position but in the other thread you went out of your way to move focus away from the RT position because G is a need too.

Bottomline, in the first two years this front office gave Unger a very nice extentions. Then they proceeded to used 2 first rounders and a third rounder on Offensive Linemen. That covers 4 positions on the Offensive Line and I defy you to find a team that invested more draft Capital in their Offensive Line in a 2 year stretch. It sucks that it didn't work out, but acting like they should have turned around and signed a 6-7 million dollar free agent at RT the year after your first round draft choice tore his ACL is kneejerk to say the least.

You want to see what kind of guy makes those moves? Look no further than Reggie McKenzie letting go of Valedeer for the right to pay Roger Saffold 8 million a year. It's capricious and wasteful.

And on top of all that, they also had the option to just use Tate as a Punt Returner, the same way they only use Devin Hester as a punt returner in Chicago and not a defensive back like he was drafted to be. But they didn't, they stuck with Tate and tried to develop him which is what you do when you invest a 2nd round pick on someone.

I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

You also make it sound like overpaying an expensive FA is the only other option.

They could have drafted OL early last year.

They could have drafted OL early the year before last.

They could have TRIED AGAIN at drafting someone earlier, but they decided that 7th rounders and people who aren't good enough to play on the other 31 teams would be good enough here.

Yes, they failed miserably with their previous attempts in the draft, basically as bad as could be. That doesn't mean they should refuse to try to improve through the draft.

Unfortunately we need linemen RIGHT NOW and because of Pete and John's ineptitude on offense it looks like we will not get the problem taken care of this year. Unless their first 5 picks are all linemen I don't see us improving.

Also, don't forget that they brought in everybody on that offense besides Unger. Tate, Baldwin, Kearse, Okung, Miller, Willson, RW, Beast Mode, etc. All brought in by PC and JS. In fact it could be argued that the only position they have had trouble drafting has been OL and that, I suspect, has just as much to do with Cable's input as PC and JS.

That all great but still does not change the fact that the o-line has been a weakness for sometime, and nothing they have done has fixed the problem and so far this year they have done little. This should be a concern to all fans because guess who the player is most likely to suffer from a bad o-line, suffer meaning injuries? RW, and guess which player is the most important on the field the QB and that is RW.

[mykc14]

That all great but still does not change the fact that the o-line has been a weakness for sometime, and nothing they have done has fixed the problem and so far this year they have done little. This should be a concern to all fans because guess who the player is most likely to suffer from a bad o-line, suffer meaning injuries? RW, and guess which player is the most important on the field the QB and that is RW.

Yeah, a weakness that they have been trying to fix through the draft for sometime, again using draft picks, spending money. All those things you suggest but their moves haven't panned out. The issue isn't that they haven't been focusing on the OL, its that those moves haven't worked out.

[Seahawks4Ever]

The Hawks are now paying for blowing several top picks in the last 3-4 seasons. Those whiffs were mitigated by J.S. finding diamond in the roughs in the later rounds and UDFA's not to mention FA bargains but now is when we are paying the Piper. The guy who blew those picks is Tom Cable and I am sure behind the scenes Pete has let him know it.

Anyway, I firmly believe the staff is going to fill the holes and fix the O-Line problem and then we will see RW and the offense really put some points on the board.

The posts I read by many in here you think that the Broncos kicked our fannys other than the other way around. Instead of stirring the pot maybe smoke a little and enjoy your self for once in your miserable lives LOL, TIChttp://www.hawkshack.com/forum/posti ... f=2&t=465#

[HumanCockroach]

And here I thought the title of the thread said the offense has been ignored, and yet it is the O-line supposedly, heh? Isn't accurate, or true, but hey, just keep banging that drum, cause you know, that'll fix it. Right?

[Zorn76]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to replace Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

[RiverDog]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to replace Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

Yea, I'm getting a bit weary of kicking the same dead horse around. No one's changed their opinions and are unlikely to do so until at least the draft comes around. I hereby pledge to drop the subject until the draft so long as everyone else agrees.

[monkey]

Now Roger Saffold... Um last I checked he couldn't hold down either tackle position and was being used as a guard by the Rams. Then the Raiders gave him an 8 million dollar a year contract. Is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have been in competition for him at that price?

Zane Beadles - How many times are we going to go through the process of overvaluing the linemen that play in front of Peyton Manning? He makes all his linemen look way better than they were because he gets into the right play and gets the ball out so quickly. He got 6 million a year from the Jags. So is it your contention Northhawk that the Seahawks should have paid 6 million a year to guard who's never made the pro-bowl?

Jon Asamoah - 2 things Atlanta was negotiating with Asamoah before Free Agency opened. Is it your contention that Seattle should have been competing with Atlanta to sign Asamoah instead of focusing on trying to resign Bennett and Tate? Secondly Asamoah comes from Andy Reid's system in KC which isn't a zone blocking scheme. He went to Atlanta which isn't a zone blocking scheme. Is it your contention that the Hawks should have gone after a man blocking Guard to the tune of 5 million a year to fit into their zone scheme?

As usual, I agree. Completely.
The names out there were absolutely not worth investing big money into, and yet desperate teams did just that, as always.
And that's the difference between winners and losers folks, losers get desperate and overspend, winners wait.

This years draft will probably net us a WR and O-Lineman in the first two rounds, Before the draft is over I expect us to have one brand new starter (Bitonio? I hope!) who will be an immediate upgrade to what we had last year.
Before the draft is over, we will also likely have replaced Tate, (even though we didn't really need to because of Kearse), with a big body receiver.

Why is everyone so worried about all of this?
I just don't get it.
We were easily the deepest team in football last year, and all we lost was some depth that we will EASILY replace through the draft/remaining part of free agency (which there is still SO MUCH LEFT OF, including what happens after the draft when players, even some really good ones, almost always get cut).

[c_hawkbob]

Yea, I'm getting a bit weary of kicking the same dead horse around. No one's changed their opinions and are unlikely to do so until at least the draft comes around. I hereby pledge to drop the subject until the draft so long as everyone else agrees.

Thank god

[Zorn76]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to replace Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

Yea, I'm getting a bit weary of kicking the same dead horse around. No one's changed their opinions and are unlikely to do so until at least the draft comes around. I hereby pledge to drop the subject until the draft so long as everyone else agrees.

lol, it's all good. The two lines you underlined from my last post were quotes from the movie, "Anchorman," though I think I botched it a little.

[Eaglehawk]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to replace Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

Yea, I'm getting a bit weary of kicking the same dead horse around. No one's changed their opinions and are unlikely to do so until at least the draft comes around. I hereby pledge to drop the subject until the draft so long as everyone else agrees.

lol, it's all good. The two lines you underlined from my last post were quotes from the movie, "Anchorman," though I think I botched it a little.

You know this entire thread has turned into arguing about NOTHING.

Some people on here like Kalibane, who I still respect, likes to argue for the hell of it. Although sometimes his points are spot on. Which is why there is no love lost.
However others, just love to argue and argue and argue. On this topic. Its useless since the pieces are not finished being put into place. So our points are a bit moot.

Let's see how long this truce lasts. I reckon in 48 hours we will be back at it again like crabs in a bucket.
Its the off season, I am bored as HELL.

[HumanCockroach]

Seriously RD. Tate was INACTIVE for a big chunk of his rookie year, returned 2 punts and had like 200 yards receiving. Pretty long reach man.

North, the whole "no stone unturned" thing IS happening, that whole process means finding players where others don't look, not just bringing in free agents and throwing money at them. They SIGNED two lineman this offseason and you weren't impressed, which is fine and all, but maybe your complaint should be they are spending to much time turning those stones, and not enough time using TRADITIONAL money throwing process.

[monkey]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to UPGRADE Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

Fixed that for ya.

[Zorn76]

Wow. This thread really took off.

I mean, this got out of hand quickly.

My spam on this topic remains the same, as it pertains to the OL: It is Not going to be difficult to UPGRADE Breno, or Carp for that matter.

Even with rookies.

Period.

End of story.

Fixed that for ya.

Shock the monkey:)

[kalibane]

"I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

I some respects that's exactly what I'm saying because that's the reality of the situation. Going on some FA spending spree on mediocre linemen would only compound the mistake of drafting Carpenter and Moffitt. It's the type of strategy that teams like the Cowboys engage in, like when their offensive line was so terrible they decided to give Doug Free a 32 million dollar contract extension just so they had someone at LT even though he was only average on his best day.

Make no mistake, contracts like that one that ended up forcing the Cowboys to release DeMarcus Ware. All people are focused on is the short term appearance of the line. And yes it's the biggest need on the team, but that doesn't mean you don't go about addressing that need responisbly.

[Anthony]

"I agree with some of the things you say, but in the end it still sounds like your argument comes down to "Pete and John and Tom failed at drafting quality starters, so we just have to live with it."

I some respects that's exactly what I'm saying because that's the reality of the situation. Going on some FA spending spree on mediocre linemen would only compound the mistake of drafting Carpenter and Moffitt. It's the type of strategy that teams like the Cowboys engage in, like when their offensive line was so terrible they decided to give Doug Free a 32 million dollar contract extension just so they had someone at LT even though he was only average on his best day.

Make no mistake, contracts like that one that ended up forcing the Cowboys to release DeMarcus Ware. All people are focused on is the short term appearance of the line. And yes it's the biggest need on the team, but that doesn't mean you don't go about addressing that need responisbly.

So we need to just live with it. Sorry I do not do not just live with sending your franchise QB out there to be injured. You find ways to protect him and that includes spending to do it. Other wise there is no sense in having a franchise QB and without one we are not a playoff team.

[kalibane]

As per your typical form, like a political pundit on Fox or MSNBC, you pick out one sentence, throw out the rest and proceed to over react to it like you stumbled on some gotcha moment.

I hope you enjoy the franchise you create when you have to watch Earl Thomas or Richard Sherman leave because you panicked and devoted 10 million dollars a year to signing Michael Oher and Roger Saffold.

[monkey]

I hope you enjoy the franchise you create when you have to watch Earl Thomas or Richard Sherman leave because you panicked and devoted 10 million dollars a year to signing Michael Oher and Roger Saffold.

Exactly!
Why do I get the feeling that the only reason Anthony is obsessing over this, is because someone suggested that having a weak o-line could possibly lead to Wilson getting hurt, and he read that and has been freaking out since?

Bottom line, if you want to overspend on crap free agent offensive linemen, you will not be able to resign your key players.
It's far better to be PATIENT, remembering that this off season just started, (this is only week eight since winning the Super Bowl guys!) and that there are plenty of moves both in free agency and the draft, and then again in free agency after the draft when players get cut, to fix the offensive line.
If there was an inexpensive offensive linemen that could upgrade, or even replace the garbage we lost, don't you think we'd have already gotten him?
I mean, this is the front office that set a record for the number of free agency moves, just a couple years ago, and a front office that has NEVER failed to turn over every rock...why would you start to doubt them now after winning a Super Bowl???
Makes no sense!

[Zorn76]

IMO, it's not only the "lack of FA persuit" angle that some here have taken concerning OL that gets me, but the fact that they are, to some degree, lamenting the loss of Breno, the likely benching of Carp, and today the departure of McQ.

To put it another way, it would be difficult to get much worse than the 3 players I just mentioned as former starters.

[monkey]

To put it another way, it would be difficult to get much worse than the 3 players I just mentioned as former starters.

It is somewhat ironic (if that is the correct term) that there are people lamenting this, rather than celebrating.
I guess it all comes down to how you choose to view this, personally I see these departures, and the fact that our front office let them go without even trying to re-sign them, as an OBVIOUS statement that the front office KNOWS that the line needs better players. They let those guys walk because they suck....which means they will get better players and have a plan to do so.

I think this is so obvious it's not really worth mentioning.

[Eaglehawk]

I hope you enjoy the franchise you create when you have to watch Earl Thomas or Richard Sherman leave because you panicked and devoted 10 million dollars a year to signing Michael Oher and Roger Saffold.

Exactly!
Why do I get the feeling that the only reason Anthony is obsessing over this, is because someone suggested that having a weak o-line could possibly lead to Wilson getting hurt, and he read that and has been freaking out since?

Bottom line, if you want to overspend on crap free agent offensive linemen, you will not be able to resign your key players.
It's far better to be PATIENT, remembering that this off season just started, (this is only week eight since winning the Super Bowl guys!) and that there are plenty of moves both in free agency and the draft, and then again in free agency after the draft when players get cut, to fix the offensive line.
If there was an inexpensive offensive linemen that could upgrade, or even replace the garbage we lost, don't you think we'd have already gotten him?
I mean, this is the front office that set a record for the number of free agency moves, just a couple years ago, and a front office that has NEVER failed to turn over every rock...why would you start to doubt them now after winning a Super Bowl???
Makes no sense!

Anthony is not obsessing. His viewpoints are shared by many on this board. Even though its early in the game. Anthony's views as of today, has credence.

[kalibane]

The idea that the offensive line needs to be upgraded is sensible and has credence. His actual viewpoint on that subject is extreme and overly dramatic.

[NorthHawk]

OK. We know Allen is not coming here.
So now we know that we have about 5-7 million to spend on former 6-7th round or FA castoffs from other teams for the OL.
I wager we could get around a dozen nobodies for that amount. Maybe one will make the team.

Last year Cable was being considered a possible candidate for a HC position.
Consider this scenario where it could bite us big time.
Cable gets these lower quality players to play well in his system this year.
He leaves for another team.
Another OL coach comes on board and wants to change or tweak the blocking schemes to what he knows and has success with - maybe still using ZBS, but doing it his way.
The players Cable has coached up, because they are limited or "specialized" in their abilities for Cable's system don't fit well with the changes.
We then are forced into the FA market for OL at the same time we want to re-sign RW, RS, ET, Avril, and more.

Even if Cable stays, the play on the OL needs to be upgraded significantly if the Offense is to improve or at least maintain its effectiveness.
The opposing Defensive Lines are improving and putting more emphasis on pass rushing - we have to at least keep pace but in the last 2 years very little attention has been paid to improve the overall talent base along the OL.

People on this forum are saying there were no players that were upgrades this year in FA.
Asamoah is one that was considered by some to be a perfect fit for the ZBS. He's only 25 and signed for a very reasonable price (2.8 million cap hit this year - and I think 4.3 next year). That would have been one position taken care of, but he wasn't considered as we pursued Allen. I'm sure there were others the last 2 years that could fit as well.

That leaves us with a RT and 2 Guard positions that are question marks. We know Carpenter has a lot of work to do to improve and I doubt he will get past being a backup quality Guard. Sweezy is a good story but he still has a lot to learn and he might be OK, but that's with a lot of improvement also.
Let's hope Bowie steps up his game against speed rushers and we need another player who can move to LT for when Okung goes down again.
Bailey may be able to work into a starting Guard position, too but again we don't yet know.

The options left now are cutdown days from TC and the draft. Maybe we will get some talent upgrades there.
If we don't we better start praying for Russ. He's going to need it.

[HumanCockroach]

OK. We know Allen is not coming here.
So now we know that we have about 5-7 million to spend on former 6-7th round or FA castoffs from other teams for the OL.
I wager we could get around a dozen nobodies for that amount. Maybe one will make the team.

Last year Cable was being considered a possible candidate for a HC position.
Consider this scenario where it could bite us big time.
Cable gets these lower quality players to play well in his system this year.
He leaves for another team.
Another OL coach comes on board and wants to change or tweak the blocking schemes to what he knows and has success with - maybe still using ZBS, but doing it his way.
The players Cable has coached up, because they are limited or "specialized" in their abilities for Cable's system don't fit well with the changes.
We then are forced into the FA market for OL at the same time we want to re-sign RW, RS, ET, Avril, and more.

Even if Cable stays, the play on the OL needs to be upgraded significantly if the Offense is to improve or at least maintain its effectiveness.
The opposing Defensive Lines are improving and putting more emphasis on pass rushing - we have to at least keep pace but in the last 2 years very little attention has been paid to improve the overall talent base along the OL.

People on this forum are saying there were no players that were upgrades this year in FA.
Asamoah is one that was considered by some to be a perfect fit for the ZBS. He's only 25 and signed for a very reasonable price (2.8 million cap hit this year - and I think 4.3 next year). That would have been one position taken care of, but he wasn't considered as we pursued Allen. I'm sure there were others the last 2 years that could fit as well.

That leaves us with a RT and 2 Guard positions that are question marks. We know Carpenter has a lot of work to do to improve and I doubt he will get past being a backup quality Guard. Sweezy is a good story but he still has a lot to learn and he might be OK, but that's with a lot of improvement also.
Let's hope Bowie steps up his game against speed rushers and we need another player who can move to LT for when Okung goes down again.
Bailey may be able to work into a starting Guard position, too but again we don't yet know.

The options left now are cutdown days from TC and the draft. Maybe we will get some talent upgrades there.
If we don't we better start praying for Russ. He's going to need it.

LOL. Even IF that were to occur, which is highly unlikely as both Quinn and Bradley would be the coaches teams would be looking for, you are suggesting the Seahawks should have paid MORE money, MORE guaranteed, for MORE years, for the SAME kind of player? At least with low cost players, or players on shorter contracts, if a new o-line coach appears, it will NOT be difficult to move on from them. Also, a ZBS is a ZBS, and the desired traits are the same amongst them, pretending like speed and athleticism will somehow no longer be desired by another coach in that regard is silly.

You are fretting over what might, maybe happen a couple years down the road with a coach you have made clear you don't think is very good now?

[kalibane]

Okay again with the Asamoah. How about you answer these two questions instead of just throwing his name around like he was waiting around outside the VMAC but the Seahawks just didn't care... I asked them before but you seem to be in denial about reality.

1. If he's so perfect for a ZBS, then why weren't zone blocking teams after him? And why was the one team that made him an absolute priority run a man blocking scheme?

2. The Falcons started negotiating with Asamoah as soon as they could under the collective bargaining agreement, several days before free agency. In order to compete for Asamoah the Seahawks would have had to be doing the same thing instead of focussing their energy on extending Michael Bennett and Golden Tate. So.. would you have rather had Asamoah than Michael Bennett? Because that's what it would have cost to get Asamoah.

Now you think that 2 weeks into free agency that there is no way the Seahawks can upgrade their offensive line. News flash. The Cardinals signed Carlos Dansby in May and they signed John Abraham in July. Along with Bennett and Avril those were two of the absolute best free agent signings last year and they occurred AFTER the draft. The Broncos didn't sign Shaun Phillips until April and he was their best pass rusher last year.

This woe is us garbage is really getting old. We're two weeks into the offseason. There is plenty of time. For instance now Evan Mathis, an actual pro-bowl guard from a ZBS is supposedly on the trading block likely due to the salary he makes. Who knows maybe he gets released or can be had for a low round pick and restructure his contract. Or even if you don't restructure his contract he still makes less than a couple of mediocre guys you suggested (Zane Beadles and Roger Saffold). There are or will be options to upgrade the line. Stop freaking out that they didn't overpay guys that aren't that good.

[Eaglehawk]

The idea that the offensive line needs to be upgraded is sensible and has credence. His actual viewpoint on that subject is extreme and overly dramatic.

Maybe so. But still a good read for bored guys like me.


I have not had the time to get into the FA and draft picks this season like you all have.
Hopefully we get lucky and improve our talent from last year.

[Zorn76]

lol, ah, man.

6 weeks until the draft, and our OL is already doomed for 2014.

Classic.

[mykc14]

Here is a Guard that seems to fit our system. He might be nice insurance and would probably be an upgrade over Carp. I am already calling this: We are going to sign Mike Brisiel



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10711 ... ke-brisiel

[Zorn76]

I dunno.

At 31, it's hardly ideal to count on this guy, especially with an injury history, though he did manage to gut it out and play in 30 out of 32 games for the Raiders.

I think we find our eventual starters in the draft, and that they will turn out to be upgrades over what we had up front last season. Again, we don't need to hit home runs here in the beginning, per say, just provide enough of an upgrade to build on for the future. If we land something substantial via the draft (or FA) and they make a huge impact up front, great.

Otherwise, noticeable improvement would be a good start.

[mykc14]

I dunno.

At 31, it's hardly ideal to count on this guy, especially with an injury history, though he did manage to gut it out and play in 30 out of 32 games for the Raiders.

I think we find our eventual starters in the draft, and that they will turn out to be upgrades over what we had up front last season. Again, we don't need to hit home runs here in the beginning, per say, just provide enough of an upgrade to build on for the future. If we land something substantial via the draft (or FA) and they make a huge impact up front, great.

Otherwise, noticeable improvement would be a good start.

I don't disagree I don't really think he is a long term starter, but a guy that knows the ZBS and has been able to gut it out through injuries at the very least provides depth and is probably better than Carp. At the same time I agree we probably will find our long term starter in the draft.

[EntiatHawk]

This year will be interesting to see how the development of Carp and Sweezy go. Also throw in Bowie and Bailey and what other Draft picks/FA we might not be as bad off as it looks. We were pretty dinged up last year and survived. I am hoping things go better this year and RW is not running for his life.

Also it must be noted that we played some pretty tough defenses last year. Our division is sick when it comes to getting to QB's and then add Houston whose defensive line is pretty darn good. The line did pretty well in the SB against just a good defense.

[Eaglehawk]

This year will be interesting to see how the development of Carp and Sweezy go. Also throw in Bowie and Bailey and what other Draft picks/FA we might not be as bad off as it looks. We were pretty dinged up last year and survived. I am hoping things go better this year and RW is not running for his life.

Also it must be noted that we played some pretty tough defenses last year. Our division is sick when it comes to getting to QB's and then add Houston whose defensive line is pretty darn good. The line did pretty well in the SB against just a good defense.

Maybe it will happen as you say. The only thing I am sure about is that Okung will be injured again and miss 3 -4 games. Someone will have to step up, if they don't then Wilson will be running for his life again.

I like the substitution concept they started last year. Cohesion my ass. Rotate them all and see what happens. Keep them at the same positions, just move them in and out for various plays.
Will this tip off the next team? Not if its done well.