Jamal Adams!

[c_hawkbob]

https://nypost.com/2020/07/25/jets-trad ... -seahawks/

[RiverDog]

Awfully steep price: Two first round picks, a third round pick, and a starter (Bradley McDougald). This is one of the most expensive trades Pete/Schneider have made. Hope it works out.

[jshawaii22]

sorry about stepping on your post -- i didn't look before hitting go. --

[c_hawkbob]

sorry about stepping on your post -- i didn't look before hitting go. --

No worries man!

[TriCitySam]

It is a big price, considering it doesn't include a long term deal (I think he has 2 yrs left) and is considered a bit of a head case.....but, we've all heard the complaints about JS and PC not being agggressive enough and wasting RW's best years....this is pretty aggressive and follows the "build from the back" philosophy. And with the pandemic, do we get two years? And with a lower cap coming, can we afford to extend him?

[jshawaii22]

for that price, or less, they could of traded for DeAndre Hopkins, who I think would of been a far better acquisition as Russell has been out looking for another weapon.

[RiverDog]

Most of our big trades have involved offensive players, like Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham, and Duane Brown. I trust Pete a heck of a lot more when it comes to his eye for the types of defensive players that fit his system than I do when he rolls the dice on offense.

But for this kind of price, 2 1st's and a 3rd, he'd better be damn good, like Pro Bowl quality good.

[c_hawkbob]

Jamal Adams:
▫️2x All Pro, 2x Pro Bowler
▫️Only 24 years old
▫️*Currently* under contract through 2021 for $10.7M total
▫️Game-changing, play-wrecking safety
▫️He and JJ Watt are the only players in NFL history with 200+ tackles, 10+ sacks & 25+ PBU within their first 3 seasons

[TriCitySam]

Let's remember the talk about the Hawks "wasting" Russ' best years......and I think Pete's contract expires at the end of the '21 season also. So maybe it's a "win now" mentality. Media generally think Schneider got fleeced, but considering how poorly we do with our 1st round picks, maybe we didn't give up that much (but certainly a lot of draft capital)

[Agent 86]

From everything I have read over the last month on this guy, he is game change, a "superstar" (didnt' RW3 ask for more superstars earlier this offseason?)

I know the price was steep, but he appears to be a special player. And for that type of price to pay, they must have some sort of feel for his demands for an extension and feel they can meet it. The defense was the weak link last year, and now with Adams and Diggs at Safety, this changes alot for how they will defend.

Is Clowney still in the mix? Does a move like this help convince him to sign back in Seattle? I stated before I think Clowney only signs a 1 year deal, and an Adams extension probably wouldn't kick in for 2 years (I don't know how it works for rookie deals, he was a 1st rounder, so pretty sure it's a 4 year deal with a 5th year team option, but don't know if an extension is allowed to kick in earlier than that?).

Overall, I am pretty happy about this move. Draft picks are never guaranteed, Adams is already a stud entering his 4th year.

[TriCitySam]

Given that college FB could be moved to spring, hard to guess how valuable the ‘21 draft pick is.

[NorthHawk]

We gave up what seems to be a lot, but if you consider that our FO thinks that we
will be drafting in the last half of each round, we are probably giving up 1st round choices but
2nd round talent. As well, our track record with 1st round picks hasn’t been stellar, it might
not be a lot of quality draft capital at the end of the day.

Pete’s history on Defense is having very good secondary players, and this trade fits
the bill, but his best success was with a good pass rush, and that part of the equation
has yet to be determined. They’re betting a lot on marginal pass rushers and young
players to get pressure on opposing QB’s.

[RiverDog]

Given that college FB could be moved to spring, hard to guess how valuable the ‘21 draft pick is.

Good point. But on the other hand, we could lose a season's worth of Adam's contributions if the 2020 NFL season tanks. The crystal ball is pretty cloudy.

I'm a little undecided on this trade. It's a huge price to pay especially when our biggest need is on the front four, but he is a proven player that should have an immediate impact on the entire defense. And unless someone can come up with a video of Adam's chasing his head coach down the sidelines in the middle of the game to read him the riot act, I don't see him as a 'head case' to anywhere close to the same degree that existed prior to our trade for Percy Harvin.

[mykc14]

Wow, great player but a very steep price. We now have the best safety tandem in the league which will obviously help to improve upon last years unit but we still haven’t done much to improve our pass rush.

[TriCitySam]

Well, in his demands for a trade he has talked negatively about his team, and called out his head coach. So in my mind a bit of a head case fits. Having said that, I too am undecided. I could argue both sides. A year or two from now we’ll have a better idea. JS may look like a genius or his stock may have fallen.

[jshawaii22]

He had 7 sacks last year and led the NFL DBacks. I think that would of led the Seahawks.
We also signed both Bruce Irvin and Benson Mawowa who both had more sacks then any Seahawk last year. Not sure if that is a good thing, or just a statement about how poor our pass rush was last year.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sounds like a replacement for Earl Thomas. I don't like giving up 2 1st round picks. But for Pete's defense this is a high value pick. Pete's version of 4-3 is predicated on an elite safety covering the middle and backing up the sides. If we can rebuild the secondary around this guy, we won't even remember the 1st round picks which are usually low 1st round picks anyway. We basically traded two low first round picks for a top 5 or 10 first round pick. He was the 6th overall pick. What is the 6th overall pick normally worth when he is unproven?

I have to say this is one of the first times I feel like they price may have been worth the risk. This guy is an incredible safety coming into his prime who played two years against Tom Brady twice a year.

[jshawaii22]

I didn't know much about him either. -- but his bio show him as a hard-hitting, ballhawk, Strong safety, who prefers to play closer to the LoS and who yaps all the time like Sherman, so he's a mix of all the LOB's... Nothing wrong with that.
The 2020 DBacks are looking good with Diggs (also a SS) and Blair (I see him as the starting FS) in his second year, I see us playing all 3 of the safety's for 5 DB's most of the time - those 3 + 2 CB's. We made no attempt to resign Kendricks as i see us using 2 LB's most of the time. I know Pete hates it, but that's the NFL and this trade suggests he knows it, too. The era of the "base" 4-3-4 defense may be a history lesson.
Let's hope Dunbar can stay out of jail for at least the 2 years we have him under contract, too. He's an improvement in a weak spot.

[RiverDog]

I think that TC Sam hit on something when he noted how much of a cluster next spring's draft is likely to be. The Pac 12 and Big 10 have already canceled all non conference games and several FCS leagues, the Ivy League and Patriot League, have canceled or postponed their seasons. With the coronavirus raging in CFB hotbeds like Florida and Texas and showing signs of getting worse in states like Alabama and Georgia, CFB might be forced to at least postpone their seasons, and if they do cancel their season, a lot of players will will gain a year of eligibility.

Next spring's draft could be a real mess, which would devalue any draft pick. This is likely one of the factors that gave Pete and John the motivation to trade draft picks.

[Oly]

I think that TC Sam hit on something when he noted how much of a cluster next spring's draft is likely to be. The Pac 12 and Big 10 have already canceled all non conference games and several FCS leagues, the Ivy League and Patriot League, have canceled or postponed their seasons. With the coronavirus raging in CFB hotbeds like Florida and Texas and showing signs of getting worse in states like Alabama and Georgia, CFB might be forced to at least postpone their seasons, and if they do cancel their season, a lot of players will will gain a year of eligibility.

Next spring's draft could be a real mess, which would devalue any draft pick. This is likely one of the factors that gave Pete and John the motivation to trade draft picks.

I hadn't considered that point before TCS brought it up but I agree completely. I also think that the best take I've read on the trade, Barnwell's thorough review on ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/295 ... worth-much) misses that point. Barnwell made a good case that the Hawks overpaid by a lot, but when you consider the unknown of the 21 draft I think it just creates more uncertainty than you have in the draft, which is already uncertain.

Personally, I have always thought that the league dramatically overvalues draft picks in trades. If the Hawks had kept their first two draft picks, then even IF they were good at drafting 1st rounders we'd probably only expect one of the two players taken in the back half of the first round to be good enough for a second contract. Would I be willing to trade a solid starter, a draft bust, and McDougald for Adams? Hell yeah I would. Adams is like a Kam who can be trusted to cover TEs, which has been the Hawks' Achilles heel for a while. He also allows Pete to get back to his kind of defense. And the fact that he's cheap for 2 years means the Hawks have some flexibility in adding a pass rusher or competent OL.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think that TC Sam hit on something when he noted how much of a cluster next spring's draft is likely to be. The Pac 12 and Big 10 have already canceled all non conference games and several FCS leagues, the Ivy League and Patriot League, have canceled or postponed their seasons. With the coronavirus raging in CFB hotbeds like Florida and Texas and showing signs of getting worse in states like Alabama and Georgia, CFB might be forced to at least postpone their seasons, and if they do cancel their season, a lot of players will will gain a year of eligibility.

Next spring's draft could be a real mess, which would devalue any draft pick. This is likely one of the factors that gave Pete and John the motivation to trade draft picks.

Sound reasoning. 1st round picks are usually unknowns, though expected to be quality starters. This guy was a 6th overall pick who performed at a high level who is in year 4 of his career. Both of our picks are likely to be in the 20s or lower unless some surprise happens like Russell going down. We picked 27 this year. 29 the previous year. 27 the previous year. 31 in 2016. The last time we picked high in the draft was Pete's first and second year eight years ago in 2012 where we picked at 15.

[obiken]

Good young player but way too much, I would have said no, but not a solid no or yes either way.

[c_hawkbob]

Besides Earl, what two (or even three) Pete Carroll 1st round draft choices would you not trade for Jamal Adams?

[RiverDog]

Besides Earl, what two (or even three) Pete Carroll 1st round draft choices would you not trade for Jamal Adams?

But by the same token, we haven't had that great of a record of first round trades producing, either. Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham come to mind. And we're not just talking about one first round pick, we're talking about two of them. That kind of capital could have moved us up into the top 10 in a given draft where we've had just one pick in Pete's 11 seasons.

Being that Adams is a defensive player and that Pete has such a good eye for those that fit his system, I'm a little more optimistic than I would be if it were an offensive player we were betting the house on. But make no mistake: This is a huge gamble. Adams has to produce.

[NorthHawk]

There's an old saying that the team that ends up with the best player wins the trade.
Nobody knows if the eventual picks will even turn out to be successful NFL players, but
we do know that Adams can play at a Pro Bowl and All Pro level. Whether he can do so
in our Defense is still a question, but he can be a very good Safety in Pete's system. Looking
back, Pete's best Defenses had a big play Safety even in College with Polomalu.

Regarding what we gave up, if the trend continues, we will be giving up the equivalent of
2 2nd round players. What we lose is opportunity cost meaning what those selections might
turn out to be and possible players in the mid rounds that we might have selected after trading
down into the 2nd round. As we are going to need another LT with Brown getting up there in
age, it might come back to bite us, but how many top LT's are there in the 24-32 range anyway?

[c_hawkbob]

But by the same token, we haven't had that great of a record of first round trades producing, either. Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham come to mind. And we're not just talking about one first round pick, we're talking about two of them. That kind of capital could have moved us up into the top 10 in a given draft where we've had just one pick in Pete's 11 seasons.

Being that Adams is a defensive player and that Pete has such a good eye for those that fit his system, I'm a little more optimistic than I would be if it were an offensive player we were betting the house on. But make no mistake: This is a huge gamble. Adams has to produce.

Harvin helped us win a SB and Graham was the best TE we ever had, if that's failure, I'll take it.

[RiverDog]

But by the same token, we haven't had that great of a record of first round trades producing, either. Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham come to mind. And we're not just talking about one first round pick, we're talking about two of them. That kind of capital could have moved us up into the top 10 in a given draft where we've had just one pick in Pete's 11 seasons.

Being that Adams is a defensive player and that Pete has such a good eye for those that fit his system, I'm a little more optimistic than I would be if it were an offensive player we were betting the house on. But make no mistake: This is a huge gamble. Adams has to produce.

Harvin helped us win a SB and Graham was the best TE we ever had, if that's failure, I'll take it.

A lot of players helped us win that SB. You said yourself that our win was so dominating that the absence of any one of them would not have changed the outcome. Harvin played one game in the 2013 regular season and outside of the SB, none in the playoffs. His contributions to that ring rank way, way down the ladder, not to mention that he nearly blew up the team by getting into fights with teammates and disobeying his coaches. It was one of, if not the worst trade in our history.

And unless you're basing your appraisal of Graham on stats alone, I disagree with your assessment of him being the best TE in our history. Even considering his injury history, I'd take Zach Miller over Graham every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

This trade has to produce.

[TriCitySam]

After hearing an interview with a New York reporter - I am retracting my comment say Adams was a "bit of a head case". Granted, he ripped his head coach, but the story was that the NYJ Execs were dishonest with him and questioned his "integrity and loyalty" as a ploy to justify tabling promised contract discussions. Obviously, I don't know all the details, but at least in this reporters mind it forced Adams to start his rants, etc. to get out of NY.

[Aseahawkfan]

A lot of players helped us win that SB. You said yourself that our win was so dominating that the absence of any one of them would not have changed the outcome. Harvin played one game in the 2013 regular season and outside of the SB, none in the playoffs. His contributions to that ring rank way, way down the ladder, not to mention that he nearly blew up the team by getting into fights with teammates and disobeying his coaches. It was one of, if not the worst trade in our history.

And unless you're basing your appraisal of Graham on stats alone, I disagree with your assessment of him being the best TE in our history. Even considering his injury history, I'd take Zach Miller over Graham every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

This trade has to produce.

I'd take Zach Miller too. He was perfect for our offense. Jimmy G was a successful trade and Jimmy G performed the way he was supposed to perform as a pass catcher and TD producer. He didn't have that Seahawks toughness we like. Jamal Adams has that toughness.

And Harvin was just crazy. Not crazy in that good Marshawn Lynch way, but selfish crazy. He felt like his talent allowed him to do whatever he wants to do, but even amazing talent mixed with selfish crazy eventually makes the cost not worth it. Harvin was ever bit the talent Pete was looking for, but in a fragile package mentally and physically. Too bad. If Harvin could have performed, he would probably be a Hall of Famer with that insane speed and talent.

[obiken]

I'd take Zach Miller too. He was perfect for our offense. Jimmy G was a successful trade and Jimmy G performed the way he was supposed to perform as a pass catcher and TD producer. He didn't have that Seahawks toughness we like. Jamal Adams has that toughness.

And Harvin was just crazy. Not crazy in that good Marshawn Lynch way, but selfish crazy. He felt like his talent allowed him to do whatever he wants to do, but even amazing talent mixed with selfish crazy eventually makes the cost not worth it. Harvin was ever bit the talent Pete was looking for, but in a fragile package mentally and physically. Too bad. If Harvin could have performed, he would probably be a Hall of Famer with that insane speed and talent.

Yeah with all due respect to you and Cbob, we gave up an All-Pro Center for JG Sorry, we got took. The best TE we ever had? Charlie Young. This is a hard trade to argue against, but its equally as hard to argue for. How many Dion Branch type trades like this ever panned out for us. Course Bob made the best argument, we are talking PC drafts here, not Normal drafting!

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah with all due respect to you and Cbob, we gave up an All-Pro Center for JG Sorry, we got took. The best TE we ever had? Charlie Young. This is a hard trade to argue against, but its equally as hard to argue for. How many Dion Branch type trades like this ever panned out for us. Course Bob made the best argument, we are talking PC drafts here, not Normal drafting!

I am never quite sure what you're talking about with the draft. Do you have some kind of actual examples of teams drafting better than Pete and John late in the draft? We've picked an average of 23 for like 8 years because the team has been successful.

We've gotten some studs in the draft. Tyler Lockett is damn good. D.K. Metcalf looks pretty awesome. Frank Clark was good before we traded him. Our running game did start to get going before Carson and Penney got hurt. They did draft and trade for the best Seahawks defense of all time bar none. And our best QB in history and our first Hall of Fame QB. I don't know what to tell you. We all wish we had more Super Bowls, but as far as teams go this is the best we've ever had with more playoff appearances than any Seahawks team in history.

If you think Pete and John are doing a bad job, you must have really despised Holmgren and Knox and their GMs.

[TriCitySam]

If you look at last years draft, Hawks selected 27th. On the trade chart, that pick is worth 680 pts. #6 is worth 1600 points, so at 27th, you would have to give two picks at #27 and a 3rd, #70 to get to 1600. Plus, this time you get a known quantity - best safety in FB, 2nd or 3rd best defensive guy - a potentially HOF guy, in the draft you might whiff. So I get the deal.

[obiken]

I am never quite sure what you're talking about with the draft. Do you have some kind of actual examples of teams drafting better than Pete and John late in the draft? We've picked an average of 23 for like 8 years because the team has been successful.

We've gotten some studs in the draft. Tyler Lockett is damn good. D.K. Metcalf looks pretty awesome. Frank Clark was good before we traded him. Our running game did start to get going before Carson and Penney got hurt. They did draft and trade for the best Seahawks defense of all time bar none. And our best QB in history and our first Hall of Fame QB. I don't know what to tell you. We all wish we had more Super Bowls, but as far as teams go this is the best we've ever had with more playoff appearances than any Seahawks team in history.

If you think Pete and John are doing a bad job, you must have really despised Holmgren and Knox and their GMs.

ASHF,
Its not the over all drafts I have a problem with, but we usually punt on the 1st round anyway. We have wiffed on people like Carpenter, passed on Fletcher Cox, taken Ifetti, and Paul Richardson. Holmy was good at 2nd rounders like Lofta, Hamlin, and Boulware, he had was horrible at 1st rounders with a few exceptions. But yeah ask these guys, I used to Flip out every Holmy draft. I tried to tell my best friend in Cleveland that Holmy was a really good coach, but a horrible drafter. 3 years later he came around.

[Aseahawkfan]

ASHF,
Its not the over all drafts I have a problem with, but we usually punt on the 1st round anyway. We have wiffed on people like Carpenter, passed on Fletcher Cox, taken Ifetti, and Paul Richardson. Holmy was good at 2nd rounders like Lofta, Hamlin, and Boulware, he had was horrible at 1st rounders with a few exceptions. But yeah ask these guys, I used to Flip out every Holmy draft. I tried to tell my best friend in Cleveland that Holmy was a really good coach, but a horrible drafter. 3 years later he came around.

Well, I know you're a huge Seahawks fan and want them to be a as perfect as possible. I get the frustration. Sucks when trades don't work out or you end up with a Carpenter or Malik McDowell. And that second Super Bowl loss is rotten, one bad decision by a coach ruined it all. We had checkmate given our players and personnel and someone decided to get cute. It will always kill me no matter how many people argue it was a good move.

As mad as I get about that like you get mad about the draft, overall team management for a decade has made us a perennial contender where our fans expect us to make the playoffs and compete for the division on a yearly basis. Our offense is looking better at WR than we have in years. If Pete can get the defense rebuilt, we'll be contending strongly again rather than just getting into the playoffs. I hope this Adams trade works out and some of these secondary picks work out. This all pro safety Adams is the best building block we've had to rebuild the secondary in years. Now we just gotta hope the D-line improves, especially in stuffing the run and the new LB can strengthen the overall corps.

[NorthHawk]

We had a few drafts in and around 2013 where we got almost nobody for a few years in a row.
That really set us back when we had to replace players that got hurt or were ending their careers.

[obiken]

Well, I know you're a huge Seahawks fan and want them to be a as perfect as possible. I get the frustration. Sucks when trades don't work out ]or you end up with a Carpenter or Malik McDowell. And that second Super Bowl loss is rotten, one bad decision by a coach ruined it all. We had checkmate given our players and personnel and someone decided to get cute. It will always kill me no matter how many people argue it was a good move.
As mad as I get about that like you get mad about the draft, overall team management for a decade has made us a perennial contender where our fans expect us to make the playoffs and compete for the division on a yearly basis. Our offense is looking better at WR than we have in years. If Pete can get the defense rebuilt, we'll be contending strongly again rather than just getting into the playoffs. I hope this Adams trade works out and some of these secondary picks work out. This all pro safety Adams is the best building block we've had to rebuild the secondary in years. Now we just gotta hope the D-line improves, especially in stuffing the run and the new LB can strengthen the overall corps.

I agree ASSY it beats the previous years no doubt. No question JA is a 24 year old great talent, its just the price that makes me cringe. We got Beast for 4 and a 5th rounder, man this guy goes south and we are just hosed. Outside of RW there is no on the Hawks I would not trade for 2 1st and a 3rd.

[RiverDog]

I agree ASSY it beats the previous years no doubt. No question JA is a 24 year old great talent, its just the price that makes me cringe. We got Beast for 4 and a 5th rounder, man this guy goes south and we are just hosed. Outside of RW there is no on the Hawks I would not trade for 2 1st and a 3rd.

Not every trade has to be a fire sale. To use a poker analogy, you're going to lose more often than you win if all you do is bet on a sure hand and fold anytime someone raises you. I'm OK with Pete and John making this kind of a deal and trust that they know what they're doing. But I still reserve my right to b**** about it if it fizzles.

[obiken]

Not every trade has to be a fire sale. To use a poker analogy, you're going to lose more often than you win if all you do is bet on a sure hand and fold anytime someone raises you. I'm OK with Pete and John making this kind of a deal and trust that they know what they're doing. But I still reserve my right to b**** about it if it fizzles.

Riv, I have to agree with the Herd, that this trade smacks of desperation. Your getting a Box Safety, not a position we need to cover for: a Starter, 2-First and a 3rd. No question he makes plays, but he is not Mack, Watt, or Reggie White who can take over a game. PC and JS look like they are covering their butts for declining Offensive and Defensive Lines. No doubt you dont find all world play makers drafting 23 or 24th every year, but finding good O and D lineman should not have been that hard. Now with Womack opting out, once again RW runs for his life, but that is what he does best till.....................wham o! We won 11 games by a score or less, good luck repeating that this year. IF we have a this year. I am not jumping on the trade trade or jumping on board. No, I would not have done it, but I think the Jets were desperate, and they got a haul. Why?

[NorthHawk]

I don't see desperation, I see opportunity.
Pete and John have always bee about gathering top talent or athletes. This was just another
chance to upgrade the overall talent on the team.

Admittedly it's a bit of a gamble that we continue to draft in the latter rounds, but still, draft
picks aren't proven Pro Bowl players or All Pros. At least not yet and 1st round talent rarely
extends past the 1st 15 picks. So if the trend continues and we select at around 23 both years
we are giving up the equivalent of 2 2nd round potential stars and a 3rd for a proven All Pro.
Add in the doubts about the College season this year and the scat show the draft may be at
the top because of lack of College games and proper evaluations, it mitigates the value given up.

Regarding OL and DL, this regime has never been able to put together a good OL so I don't expect
it to ever change. They seem to be happy with the DL at the moment, but looking at the roster I
would expect them to add a player or two to replace Woods/Jefferson inside from TC cuts.

[RiverDog]

Riv, I have to agree with the Herd, that this trade smacks of desperation. Your getting a Box Safety, not a position we need to cover for: a Starter, 2-First and a 3rd. No question he makes plays, but he is not Mack, Watt, or Reggie White who can take over a game. PC and JS look like they are covering their butts for declining Offensive and Defensive Lines. No doubt you dont find all world play makers drafting 23 or 24th every year, but finding good O and D lineman should not have been that hard. Now with Womack opting out, once again RW runs for his life, but that is what he does best till.....................wham o! We won 11 games by a score or less, good luck repeating that this year. IF we have a this year. I am not jumping on the trade trade or jumping on board. No, I would not have done it, but I think the Jets were desperate, and they got a haul. Why?

Desperation? The Hawks were the fourth winningest team in the decade and made the playoffs 9 out of 10 seasons, for crying out loud, and we were arguably one of the best teams in the league last season. "Desperation" is a better description of a team like the Browns, Jets, Dolphins, or Lions. This trade is a calculated risk, not one done in a fit of frustration.

Pete values safeties in his defense more so than other coaches. That's why we spent a #13 overall on Earl Thomas. As far as I'm concerned, Pete is right until proven wrong.