Seahawk Free Agents

[obiken]

Okay, I get how some of you want to keep Clowney, I really do. But all the people that want to keep Ifetti, just Pukes me out. Like fighting to keep Steve August, a journeyman at best!

[NorthHawk]

The problem is there is a shortage of RT's that are competent. Ifedi is improving every year
and will have a good career, so if we pay market value, it's going to cost. People talk about
Bulaga, but he has an injury history, and Conklin will cost a whole lot more. Fant is a downgrade
as he couldn't beat out Ifedi, and Pete always wants a hulking RT. Maybe if they get some kid
in the draft it would work out, but that's a big gamble with a $30 million QB in the backfield.

Edit:
As well, it would take a rookie a couple of years to get to the level Ifedi is currently at.

[mykc14]

The problem is there is a shortage of RT's that are competent. Ifedi is improving every year
and will have a good career, so if we pay market value, it's going to cost. People talk about
Bulaga, but he has an injury history, and Conklin will cost a whole lot more. Fant is a downgrade
as he couldn't beat out Ifedi, and Pete always wants a hulking RT. Maybe if they get some kid
in the draft it would work out, but that's a big gamble with a $30 million QB in the backfield.

I don't think there is any way that we should pay Ifedi over 11 mil, let alone the 15 mill he is probably going to get. Also, I think that you have to realize that when you don't resign him it is going to be a downgrade. What JS has to do is find the best replacement at a decent cost. A $6 mill journeyman replacement who is a slight downgrade is better than spending that much on Ifedi if it's spent to improve our terrible DL. ALso, Fant may not be the long term answer at RT, but if he the organization see's him as a future LT then it might be worth paying him close to 9 mill and then letting him slide to LT when the time comes, although I agree he is not PC's ideal RT.

[RiverDog]

Okay, I get how some of you want to keep Clowney, I really do. But all the people that want to keep Ifetti, just Pukes me out. Like fighting to keep Steve August, a journeyman at best!

Ifedi isn't a Pro Bowl offensive tackle, but he's not a journeyman, either. He's been a starter almost since the day he was drafted and has missed just one start in the past 4 seasons. I didn't much care for him, either, but he's improved on what was once a huge problem, his tendency to draw flags and he's as solid as a rock injury-wise, which has to be a consideration.

As North Hawk states, offensive tackles are in high demand, and we also have George Fant that's a free agent. If we lose both of them and don't bring in a bona fide starter through free agency to replace them, you can kiss goodbye any chances we might have of improving our team. Our offensive line, of which the past couple of years has been a relative strength, will regress to what it was under Bevell/Cable.

So who are you going to want to overpay, Ifedi or Fant?

[RiverDog]

I don't think there is any way that we should pay Ifedi over 11 mil, let alone the 15 mill he is probably going to get. Also, I think that you have to realize that when you don't resign him it is going to be a downgrade. What JS has to do is find the best replacement at a decent cost. A $6 mill journeyman replacement who is a slight downgrade is better than spending that much on Ifedi if it's spent to improve our terrible DL. ALso, Fant may not be the long term answer at RT, but if he the organization see's him as a future LT then it might be worth paying him close to 9 mill and then letting him slide to LT when the time comes, although I agree he is not PC's ideal RT.

If you're looking at the option of resigning either Ifedi or Fant and use your assumed $15M for Ifedi and $9M for Fant as their price tags, the difference of $6M should we decide to overspend on Ifedi shouldn't hurt our ability to improve the DL that much. I'm also not keen on overspending on Fant under the assumption that he's going to replace Brown in a few years. I can remember a similar strategy when we resigned Sean Locklear under the assumption that he was going to replace Big Walt.

I don't want to get hung up on $6M for our preferred starter at a critical spot like RT when we're sitting on $60M of cap space. It's a case of being penny wise and pound foolish.

[mykc14]

If you're looking at the option of resigning either Ifedi or Fant and use your assumed $15M for Ifedi and $9M for Fant as their price tags, the difference of $6M should we decide to overspend on Ifedi shouldn't hurt our ability to improve the DL that much. I'm also not keen on overspending on Fant under the assumption that he's going to replace Brown in a few years. I can remember a similar strategy when we resigned Sean Locklear under the assumption that he was going to replace Big Walt.

I don't want to get hung up on $6M for our preferred starter at a critical spot like RT when we're sitting on $60M of cap space. It's a case of being penny wise and pound foolish.

The comparison you'r using isn't exactly accurate. I would only spend $9 mil on Fant if I viewed him as the LT of the future, If he's not your guy after Brown then you let him walk for $9 mil/year. If you don't view Fant as your LTOF then you sign somebody closer to the 6-7 mil/year range at RT. To me it's about positional value. The 13th Highest paid RT in the league is only getting 5 mil/year. To pay Ifedi, who is closer to the 13th best RT in the league than the 3rd 15 mil/year is not great value. The extra 6-10 we save by not signing Ifedi is the difference between keeping Clowney getting a DE or DT like Fowler Jr, Griffen, trading for a Von Miller, or Campbell who would all cost 15-19 mil/year or getting a $9 mil/year pass rusher. The guys getting 9 mil/year are like the 25th highest paid pass-rusher in the league....

In other words, would you rather have the 3rd highest paid RT and the 30th Highest paid Pass Rusher or the 12th Highest Paid RT and the 7th Highest Paid Pass-Rusher. Obviously paying somebody isn't going guarantee production but the idea is the better players get paid more.

[RiverDog]

The comparison you'r using isn't exactly accurate. I would only spend $9 mil on Fant if I viewed him as the LT of the future, If he's not your guy after Brown then you let him walk for $9 mil/year. If you don't view Fant as your LTOF then you sign somebody closer to the 6-7 mil/year range at RT. To me it's about positional value. The 13th Highest paid RT in the league is only getting 5 mil/year. To pay Ifedi, who is closer to the 13th best RT in the league than the 3rd 15 mil/year is not great value. The extra 6-10 we save by not signing Ifedi is the difference between keeping Clowney getting a DE or DT like Fowler Jr, Griffen, trading for a Von Miller, or Campbell who would all cost 15-19 mil/year or getting a $9 mil/year pass rusher. The guys getting 9 mil/year are like the 25th highest paid pass-rusher in the league....

In other words, would you rather have the 3rd highest paid RT and the 30th Highest paid Pass Rusher or the 12th Highest Paid RT and the 7th Highest Paid Pass-Rusher. Obviously paying somebody isn't going guarantee production but the idea is the better players get paid more.

If a OT that grades out in the bottom 1/3 of OT's in the league gets paid $15M/year, who are you going to be able to sign for $6-7M?

I want to improve our pass rush as badly as anyone else, but I don't want to skimp on our OL, either.

[NorthHawk]

I think you are mistaken in thinking the price of RT's is static. It's not, it's increasing every year
and I think that paying around $15m/yr will seem a bargain in 2 or 3 years for an average RT. The
Cap increases each year by about $10 - $12 million and there are new negotiations for TV and streaming
rights coming up as well as the added bonus of gambling revenue. The Salaries and Cap are probably
going to significantly increase and the relatively little money to keep Ifedi vs another lesser RT will seem
like peanuts.

But who knows how our FO views Ifedi's value. They didn't extend him with the 5th year option, but I think
the Cap issues at the time were a factor in that decision.

[obiken]

Okay, You and Northhawk's logic is overwhelming, but the guy has been a penalty machine! What would Big Walt bring if he was playing in his prime, probably scary to think about. Part of the problem River is I think line play has gone down the last 10 years. Limited practices, etc, the cost of good lineman, as you and NH have proven, have gone up.

[NorthHawk]

That's another point, Obi.
Getting players up to speed with limited practice means trying to keep your own players
who know the system and the players around him on the OL might become more important
than Cap issues. Of course there is a limit, but it might become a factor in that decision.
What is surely means is the GM's job is getting tougher every year.

[mykc14]

If a OT that grades out in the bottom 1/3 of OT's in the league gets paid $15M/year, who are you going to be able to sign for $6-7M?

I want to improve our pass rush as badly as anyone else, but I don't want to skimp on our OL, either.

Ifedi is not getting paid based on what he has done in this league. Whoever decides to pay him $15 mil/year is paying him based on potential (which is why I wouldn't do it). He is a high draft pick who has improved year after year. There has been a pattern of team overpaying for our FA lineman (see Sweezy and Carpenter). Just because somebody is willing to pay them top end money doesn't mean they are worth it.

This is why my perfect scenario is Fant, but if he isn't the guy you are looking for at RT then you simply wait until the 2nd wave of Free Agent T's. A guy like Mike Remmers (will be 31 next year and has started a ton of games in his career) should be in the 5 mil/year range (he started for the Giants and made like 2 mil last year). There are lots of guys who will be 6 mil or less next year. The issue will be finding the right one who is not a huge drop off from Ifedi. Whoever you sign probably won't be your long-term answer. An older player who has a lot of experience makes sense, but you draft somebody who you like enough to think they will be the guy in a year or two.

[mykc14]

I think you are mistaken in thinking the price of RT's is static. It's not, it's increasing every year
and I think that paying around $15m/yr will seem a bargain in 2 or 3 years for an average RT. The
Cap increases each year by about $10 - $12 million and there are new negotiations for TV and streaming
rights coming up as well as the added bonus of gambling revenue. The Salaries and Cap are probably
going to significantly increase and the relatively little money to keep Ifedi vs another lesser RT will seem
like peanuts.

But who knows how our FO views Ifedi's value. They didn't extend him with the 5th year option, but I think
the Cap issues at the time were a factor in that decision.

Where did you get that I think the price of any position is static? It definitely is not, its going to increase each year, but a middle level player (lets say the 16th highest paid RT) isn't going to go from 5 million/year in 2019 to 15 mil/year in 2021 or 2022. For example in 2016 the 16th ranked RT was paid 4.5 mil in 2019 the 16th ranked OT was 5 mil. The middle teir guys aren't going to go up that much. The top end guys are going to go up way more than they should, but the middle of the road will be at the most 10 mil 3 in years.

[NorthHawk]

The point I was making was position salaries make big jumps. Now it's the OL and RT's turn
as we saw with the Cards signing their RT. What is reasonable today won't be reasonable tomorrow
if you use today's yardstick. Expect average RT's to be making $10m - $15m/yr in the near future.
It's just how it's going. The other option is to draft another RT and hope he doesn't make the same
blunders Ifedi has got passed in his play as well as hope that draftee can actually run block well enough
for the run game to not suffer.
The average per year for a top RT is about $14m. Expect that to rise substantially and drag the lower
salaries along with them for starters.
The fact is there aren't that many starters in the $$ range you expect to pay that would not be a big
downgrade or injury concern. So you have to pay more.

[mykc14]

That's another point, Obi.
Getting players up to speed with limited practice means trying to keep your own players
who know the system and the players around him on the OL might become more important
than Cap issues. Of course there is a limit, but it might become a factor in that decision.
What is surely means is the GM's job is getting tougher every year.

Another factor is the lack of 'pro-systems' in college. Rookie lineman need more work than in the past and they don't get nearly as much time as they used to, which makes that transition take more time.

[mykc14]

The point I was making was position salaries make big jumps. Now it's the OL and RT's turn
as we saw with the Cards signing their RT. What is reasonable today won't be reasonable tomorrow
if you use today's yardstick. Expect average RT's to be making $10m - $15m/yr in the near future.
It's just how it's going. The other option is to draft another RT and hope he doesn't make the same
blunders Ifedi has got passed in his play as well as hope that draftee can actually run block well enough
for the run game to not suffer.
The average per year for a top RT is about $14m. Expect that to rise substantially and drag the lower
salaries along with them for starters.
The fact is there aren't that many starters in the $$ range you expect to pay that would not be a big
downgrade or injury concern. So you have to pay more.

I agree the average is going to go up but what we disagree about is how much. The top end will certainly raise more than the rest, but my point is the average of the middle of the pack (16th highest paid) doesn't go up nearly as much. I've looked at different positions and they typically will go up at 10-40% after 3 years. I agree that certain positions will make bigger jumps but that big jump doesn't seem to effect the middle of the pack as much. I've looked at WR, QB, C, TE, and LT. LT is a good example- it has gone up a lot for that middle of the pack guy, but only 3 million (which is more than the others and was about 30%). Even if RT doubles that it will still only be about 10 million after 3 years. It it possible that 15 mil looks like a bargain after 3 years, of course, but probably 8-10 mil will be closer to the price that a middle of the road RT can expect.

[NorthHawk]

I think the Cap is going to take a big leap and therefor all positions will as well, so in a few years $12m - $15m will be average or low.
We are already seeing some of it with the Cards re-signing their RT to $15m/yr average for an average RT. That's pretty much going
to be the going rate maybe as soon as this year.

[mykc14]

I think the Cap is going to take a big leap and therefor all positions will as well, so in a few years $12m - $15m will be average or low.
We are already seeing some of it with the Cards re-signing their RT to $15m/yr average for an average RT. That's pretty much going
to be the going rate maybe as soon as this year.

I don't doubt that there is a chance that the salary cap could make a big jump in the near future, but I still don't see RT's salaries increasing that much, we will see. The Cards paying all of that money to a below average RT seems stupid to me too, but who knows. IMO signing Ifedi to anything North of 11 million is a mistake. Not the end of the world, obviously, but it will certainly hinder us from getting the DL/Pass-rush help that we so desperately need.

[RiverDog]

Okay, You and Northhawk's logic is overwhelming, but the guy has been a penalty machine! What would Big Walt bring if he was playing in his prime, probably scary to think about. Part of the problem River is I think line play has gone down the last 10 years. Limited practices, etc, the cost of good lineman, as you and NH have proven, have gone up.

Ifedi's penalties aren't nearly the problem they were a couple seasons ago when he led the league.

https://www.nflpenalties.com/all-players.php?year=2019

Out of his 13 penalties, which includes playoffs, Ifedi drew 5 for holding and 1 for illegal downfield, and at least some of that can be attributed to playing behind a scrambling quarterback who holds onto the ball forever and that is a nightmare to block for. Additionally, Ifedi played nearly every snap last season, which means more opportunities to draw a penalty.

Because they play on an island in full view of the officials and are up against the edge rushers like Von Millers and Kahlil Macks more often than guards and centers, offensive tackles are going to be one of the heaviest penalized positions on the field.

Ifedi's penalties are a weak spot in his game, but they aren't so bad that they should be used as a reason to ship him off.

[NorthHawk]

The perception is he's a penalty machine and early in his career he had a lot of them, however he's getting better
but a players reputation often precedes him and that perception is perpetuated even if no longer true.
Not to mention Refs being human might also have a shorter leash for players with a penalty rep.
The bottom line is I think it's foolish to not retain a player you know fits the system well for just a few
dollars more and that will become the norm very shortly.
But who knows. Maybe Jones is the actual heir apparent and he didn't play RT because of his shoulder injury and
the need for help inside last year.

[c_hawkbob]

Ifedi's penalties are a weak spot in his game, but they aren't so bad that they should be used as a reason to ship him off.

I agree with this.