Are Seahawks wasting Wilson’s prime

[TriCitySam]

Earl was pretty good, but that goes back to 2010, which was a good draft, and while the grade on '19 is undecided, you're right about DK. However, moving forward from 2010, aside from '19, they had 24 1st thru 3rd picks. Of those 9 became starters. Some pretty good. '12 was great because of Russ and Bobby - and a couple really good ones in '15 (Clark, Lockett). But you have starters of questionable value (Ifedi, Irvin, Green) and a whole slew of guys that weren't that good: Carpenter, Moffett, Michael, J. Hill, Prosise, Odihiambo, Darboh, Jones, D. Hill. And the rest are in the "OK" category.

I don't know what the success rate should be (I used to hear 1-3 rds should produce starters at some point). Add to the "not that good" category the guys that washed out for other reasons and you've got nearly 50% that didn't work out. Maybe that's better than average, but of the last 9 very first picks we've taken, 5 were busts and only 1 standout among them (Clark).

Seems to me that's low, at least I've expected more, because were so good in the later rounds, why not in the early ones??

[RiverDog]

Earl was pretty good, but that goes back to 2010, which was a good draft, and while the grade on '19 is undecided, you're right about DK. However, moving forward from 2010, aside from '19, they had 24 1st thru 3rd picks. Of those 9 became starters. Some pretty good. '12 was great because of Russ and Bobby - and a couple really good ones in '15 (Clark, Lockett). But you have starters of questionable value (Ifedi, Irvin, Green) and a whole slew of guys that weren't that good: Carpenter, Moffett, Michael, J. Hill, Prosise, Odihiambo, Darboh, Jones, D. Hill. And the rest are in the "OK" category.

I don't know what the success rate should be (I used to hear 1-3 rds should produce starters at some point). Add to the "not that good" category the guys that washed out for other reasons and you've got nearly 50% that didn't work out. Maybe that's better than average, but of the last 9 very first picks we've taken, 5 were busts and only 1 standout among them (Clark).

Seems to me that's low, at least I've expected more, because were so good in the later rounds, why not in the early ones??

The only reason why I threw Earl in there is because you had mentioned Okung. They were both drafted the same year in the first round.

Any comparisons of drafting success has to be weighted by the fact that on the whole, we draft lower than other teams due to our making the playoffs for the past 9 seasons. Except for his first season in 2010, Pete has never had a draft pick in the top 10, and of course, that draft slotting carries through the entire draft. In addition, we have had the tendency to trade away our top picks and/or trade down to accumulate more selections.

As far as the early round flops vs. the late round gems, I can't answer that. It's a mystery to a lot of us. The Hawks have their own system and make selections that conventional wisdom would classify as reach picks. Our top two picks in the last two drafts, Penny and Collier, fall into that category.

[NorthHawk]

Stop with the reach pick garbage.
Teams are selecting potential and just like picks such as Aaron Curry, and others like Tom Brady, no team really knows
what they are getting or how other teams view each player. They do their due diligence and then try to select players
based on what they know about them and how they perceive they will fit their system and needs.

Regarding the draft, there are hardly any drafts where 1st round talent extends to the 32nd spot. Most drafts top
players and true exceptional talent end around 12 to 15. Therefor when the talent tier extends past the draft position
the team is selecting, it's wise to move down and garner more picks. As we've been selecting in the latter half of
the rounds, we are selecting 2nd round talent for the most part, so expecting our 1st round picks to be Pro Bowl players
or instant starters is naive at best, however, they can develop into solid players over time. We just have to have more
patience with our top picks than a team selecting in the top 10. This is especially true of the OL who don't get the same
coaching and pro set techniques they used to. They now have to get that at the NFL level. That means it's going to
take a couple of years before they stop making bad plays and become consistent.
Look at Tunsil as an example. He had a ton of mental mistakes, but has more potential than most OL in his draft year
and still today, he's learning how to play the position properly.

[idhawkman]

I’ve been having this thought the last few years, and just read an article by someone about, are the Hawks as an organization wasting Russell Wilson’s prime years?? We all have different opinions about this and that about the Seahawks, on what they need to fix. Of course a rash of major injuries sure didn’t help this year, and some terrible OL and DL drafting success as of late hasn’t helped either..

.. yes I know Seahawks have one of the youngest rosters... but until they get the OL and DL better, I feel like We will be squandering Wilson’s prime and could have been to many more championship opportunities and super bowls, obviously there is luck involved and good health and fortune to be able to get there year in and year out, but Seahawks need to fix the obvious drags on the team before it’s to late for Wilson to do what he does... . or is capable of.
As time goes he won’t get faster and quicker, so we need to maximize our hall of fame QB now.... I know they’ve tried to fix things on the lines but, but geez.... their top 4 picks in the draft should be OL and DL, would be a good start and go aggressive in FA

Frankly I think Russell Wilson is wasting Russell Wilsons prime. "If" RW would play all four quarters of every game his "prime" would have a different outcome for history and posterity.

[obiken]

Frankly I think Russell Wilson is wasting Russell Wilsons prime. "If" RW would play all four quarters of every game his "prime" would have a different outcome for history and posterity.

ID your usually spot on and more well balanced than I am, but this criticism is way off the ranch. RW is it for us, he is taking a mediocre team at best and putting them on his back. IF he goes down, people would sadly find out how good he is. IF RW was to say, get in a car accident, and the current back up had to take over this team, how many games would we win? 5, at most! Moreover, to address your critique directly, teams like LA and SF start out with a mission to stop him, but by the 4th quarter I would argue that they get fatigued enough to finally slow down enough for him to do the job. IF you look at our losses the defense is the failure not him. Sure he is human and can have bad games, but by and large this is not the 2005 SH, were you had several stars. RW is it for us, he goes down and we are D O N E!

[Anthony]

Frankly I think Russell Wilson is wasting Russell Wilsons prime. "If" RW would play all four quarters of every game his "prime" would have a different outcome for history and posterity.

So your assumption is he is the reason for our slow starts, a ec etc.

Lets see

Q1 68.1 compt % 114.2 qb rating
Q2 65.3 complt%, 105.8 qb rating
Q3 72 complt %, 111.9 Qb rating
Q4 63 compt%, 99 Qb rating

Hmm seems like hs is not the problem in the 1st half at all, or the 2nd half

Now lets look at other facts

Q1 94 attempts
Q2 150 attemtps
Q3 100 Attempts
Q4 152 Attempts

Hmm seems we dont like to throw in the 1st and 3rd qtrs as much as 2nd and 4th now more

Q1 9.2 YPC
Q2 7.8 YPC
Q3 7.3 YPC
Q4 7.8 YPC

Hmm 9.2 YPC but he only throws on avg 6 times per Q1 Hmm not good


Hmm so much for Wilson not playing 4 qtrs, the issue is the style of play from 1st half to 2nd half. Something more experts are taking note of. Something several players have made comments about.

[RiverDog]

Ahh, nothing like a post critical of RW to bring Anthony out of the woodwork. Good to see you again, my friend!

[Anthony]

Ahh, nothing like a post critical of RW to bring Anthony out of the woodwork. Good to see you again, my friend!

I have been a round just not been much happening. That said as it relates to Wilson and 4 qtrs I will say I would like to see him run more in the 1st half, he seems, well actually the stats show to do more of that in the 2nd the question is, is it his choice or PCs?

[RiverDog]

Ahh, nothing like a post critical of RW to bring Anthony out of the woodwork. Good to see you again, my friend!

I have been a round just not been much happening. That said as it relates to Wilson and 4 qtrs I will say I would like to see him run more in the 1st half, he seems, well actually the stats show to do more of that in the 2nd the question is, is it his choice or PCs?

Was that a Freudian slip, that you meant "us" or "them",ie the team, rather than "him" being Russell?

If it was the latter, I think we've seen the last of designed runs from Russell Wilson. We can count on one hand how many times Russell kept on read options or QB keepers/draws last season, and that's fine by me.

As far as Russell having slow starts, I don't think there's any question that he does, but IMO it's more a reflection of the team in general than it is any personal flaw of Russell's. It doesn't seem like we play with the same sense of urgency when we're up by 7 as we do when we're down by 10.

[obiken]

Not only that Anthony to piggy back on Rivers point, RW is not 24 anymore, he is 31 to be 32 in Nov. Do you really want him running around out there on scripted runs with bad blocking? 3 more years and the RW that is totally underappreciated, will be done.

[RiverDog]

Not only that Anthony to piggy back on Rivers point, RW is not 24 anymore, he is 31 to be 32 in Nov. Do you really want him running around out there on scripted runs with bad blocking? 3 more years and the RW that is totally underappreciated, will be done.

The days of Russell's 500+ yard rushing seasons are over, and rightfully so. He's going to win games for us with his arm and opportunistic scrambling, not by carrying ten times a game on read options ala Lamar Jackson. He needs to run just enough to force defenses to respect him.

[mykc14]

The days of Russell's 500+ yard rushing seasons are over, and rightfully so. He's going to win games for us with his arm and opportunistic scrambling, not by carrying ten times a game on read options ala Lamar Jackson. He needs to run just enough to force defenses to respect him.

In Anthony's defense I did not read his comment to mean that the Hawks should create more opportunities for him to run, i.e. read options, but instead I read it to mean that he wants RW to scramble more. RW is risk averse to both turnovers and getting hurt until the game is on the line (or come playoffs when the games really matter). I'm not saying I want him to run more, I'm just pointing out that maybe he wasn't suggesting that the Hawks call more run plays for RW.

[Anthony]

In Anthony's defense I did not read his comment to mean that the Hawks should create more opportunities for him to run, i.e. read options, but instead I read it to mean that he wants RW to scramble more. RW is risk averse to both turnovers and getting hurt until the game is on the line (or come playoffs when the games really matter). I'm not saying I want him to run more, I'm just pointing out that maybe he wasn't suggesting that the Hawks call more run plays for RW.

I was not saying call more runs at all, put perhaps when the opportunity permits scramble/run in the first half a few times, this may make the dline have to think twice and give Wilson perhaps a little more time. And above all else if he does run GET DOWN ASAP when danger is coming. I agree the days of Wilson getting 500 yards should be over, but a few positive scrambles in the first half can help.

[RiverDog]

I agree the days of Wilson getting 500 yards should be over, but a few positive scrambles in the first half can help.

The scrambles aren't called plays, they happen more or less at random throughout the game. We really can't say that Russell should scramble more in the first half. It's sort of like saying that the fire department should put out their fires on weekdays between 9am and 5pm. Or am I reading you wrong and that you're trying to say that we should be calling more passing plays and hence a higher likelihood of scrambles in the first half?

Our offense worked just fine until the last 1/4 of the season when the injuries started to pile up. I don't think you'll see a huge change in philosophy next season.

[c_hawkbob]

The scrambles aren't called plays, they happen more or less at random throughout the game

Exactly. Scrambles are by definition what happens when things go wrong with a play. I could see having a designed rollout or RPO in the first half of a game to keep Russ' athletic ability in the mind of the defense but I'd just as soon Russ never had to scramble again. That'd mean we had the best pass blocking O-line in the history of the game ... but we all know that aint happening, so I'll just satisfy myself with knowing we've still got an A+ scrambler at the controls for when sh!t does get sideways.

[RiverDog]

The scrambles aren't called plays, they happen more or less at random throughout the game

Exactly. Scrambles are by definition what happens when things go wrong with a play. I could see having a designed rollout or RPO in the first half of a game to keep Russ' athletic ability in the mind of the defense but I'd just as soon Russ never had to scramble again. That'd mean we had the best pass blocking O-line in the history of the game ... but we all know that aint happening, so I'll just satisfy myself with knowing we've still got an A+ scrambler at the controls for when sh!t does get sideways.

I'm not sure that I'd call Russell an A+ scrambler anymore, at least not compared to the younger guys like Mahomes and Jackson and as it pertains to avoiding sacks and gaining yardage, but he's still damn good and well above the norm. Defenses still have to assign a 'spy' to keep Russell honest.

The biggest thing that separates Russell from the others isn't his scrambling for yardage as much as it is his ability to keep his eyes downfield and complete passes during those scrambles, and if you intended to incorporate that attribute into your grade, I agree that Russell's definitely an A+. That's something that I don't see in Lamar Jackson and why I think he's nothing more than Michael Vick 2.0.

[c_hawkbob]

The biggest thing that separates Russell from the others isn't his scrambling for yardage as much as it is his ability to keep his eyes downfield and complete passes during those scrambles, and if you intended to incorporate that attribute into your grade, I agree that Russell's definitely an A+.

Of course I do, in fact scrambling to continue the play as a pass first is 75% of the equation. Scrambling for yards is relatively easy by comparison, and not nearly as valuable to your team.

[RiverDog]

Of course I do, in fact scrambling to continue the play as a pass first is 75% of the equation. Scrambling for yards is relatively easy by comparison, and not nearly as valuable to your team.

And to break it down even further, avoiding sacks and knowing when to take one, knowing the game situation, knowing when to throw it away and live for another down, and protecting the ball and not doing anything stupid (something Dave Krieg never mastered) are all parts that enter into that equation.

Russell isn't as good at getting out of sacks like he was when he first came into the league and he's lost a step in his ability to outrun defenders, but he's improved at avoiding doing something Krieg-ish.

[trents]

In so far as the draft is concerned, the Hawks are in the no man's land of a team that is still good enough to have winning seasons and get into the playoffs year after year; such that the draft talent they need to actually excel is already gone. The current NFL draft pick system penalizes success. In the NFL, the only way to get on top is to first go to the bottom - unless you have Bill Belichick as your head coach.

[NorthHawk]

Where has KC drafted the last few years? The last 2 years they haven't had a 1st round pick, Mahomes was
selected 10th in in 2017 and they didn't have a 1st in 2016.
So it can be done without high picks.

[RiverDog]

In so far as the draft is concerned, the Hawks are in the no man's land of a team that is still good enough to have winning seasons and get into the playoffs year after year; such that the draft talent they need to actually excel is already gone. The current NFL draft pick system penalizes success. In the NFL, the only way to get on top is to first go to the bottom - unless you have Bill Belichick as your head coach.

I wouldn't say that the 'only' way to get on top is to first go to the bottom. There are some franchises, like Denver and Green Bay, that haven't gone 'to the bottom', at least not in the past couple of decades, yet have been on top. The Steelers and Chiefs also fit into that category. But I get your point.

Then you have the polar opposite of the Patriots, teams like the Browns and Lions, who consistently pick in the top 10 yet never come anywhere close to the top.

[trents]

True, it doesn't always work that way. There are exceptions. But it still holds largely true I think for teams with competent management and coaching. The Packers are in much the same situation as the Hawks, stuck in a mediocrity loop. The Browns and Lions need to draft new front office and coaching personnel worse than better players on the field.

[obiken]

In so far as the draft is concerned, the Hawks are in the no man's land of a team that is still good enough to have winning seasons and get into the playoffs year after year; such that the draft talent they need to actually excel is already gone. The current NFL draft pick system penalizes success. In the NFL, the only way to get on top is to first go to the bottom - unless you have Bill Belichick as your head coach.

Right on man! That was my concern with paying RW's ginormous contract. 9-7 to 7-9 at worse. We were damned if we did, and damned if we didnt.

[RiverDog]

True, it doesn't always work that way. There are exceptions. But it still holds largely true I think for teams with competent management and coaching. The Packers are in much the same situation as the Hawks, stuck in a mediocrity loop. The Browns and Lions need to draft new front office and coaching personnel worse than better players on the field.

The Packers won it all in 2010 and have gone to the NFC Championship game three times since then, including last season. In today's NFL, that's pretty good. I'm not sure I would call that a mediocrity loop.

I understand what you're driving at, but IMO I'd rather take over a team that is a player or two away from the SB with a franchise QB in place as both us and the Packers are vs. blowing up a team and starting over like Gruden is doing with the Raiders.

[idhawkman]

I noticed you didn't point out the points scored in the 4 different quarters. The fact of the matter is, RW walks to the huddle in the first and second quarter, maybe trots in the 3rd and then really shows he's fully awake in the 4th and any OT.

Next season, watch RW and how he approaches the huddle and you will see exactly what I mean. If you don't think the rest of the offense feeds off his energy then you are underestimating his role on the offense.

[Aseahawkfan]

I noticed you didn't point out the points scored in the 4 different quarters. The fact of the matter is, RW walks to the huddle in the first and second quarter, maybe trots in the 3rd and then really shows he's fully awake in the 4th and any OT.

Next season, watch RW and how he approaches the huddle and you will see exactly what I mean. If you don't think the rest of the offense feeds off his energy then you are underestimating his role on the offense.

Why do you keep making things up about Wilson that don't have any bearing on the game? Unreal.

[RiverDog]

I noticed you didn't point out the points scored in the 4 different quarters. The fact of the matter is, RW walks to the huddle in the first and second quarter, maybe trots in the 3rd and then really shows he's fully awake in the 4th and any OT.

Next season, watch RW and how he approaches the huddle and you will see exactly what I mean. If you don't think the rest of the offense feeds off his energy then you are underestimating his role on the offense.

You're getting into some pretty subjective analysis there. Besides, if there's anything that Russell doesn't lack, it's enthusiasm and energy. From the time he comes out of the tunnel to the time he's back in the locker room, he's constantly on the field and sidelines acting like a cheerleader, to the point that he can get pretty cheesy at times. He's a shorter, younger, and darker version of Pete Carroll.