Are Seahawks wasting Wilson’s prime

[Klanky]

I’ve been having this thought the last few years, and just read an article by someone about, are the Hawks as an organization wasting Russell Wilson’s prime years?? We all have different opinions about this and that about the Seahawks, on what they need to fix. Of course a rash of major injuries sure didn’t help this year, and some terrible OL and DL drafting success as of late hasn’t helped either..

.. yes I know Seahawks have one of the youngest rosters... but until they get the OL and DL better, I feel like We will be squandering Wilson’s prime and could have been to many more championship opportunities and super bowls, obviously there is luck involved and good health and fortune to be able to get there year in and year out, but Seahawks need to fix the obvious drags on the team before it’s to late for Wilson to do what he does... . or is capable of.
As time goes he won’t get faster and quicker, so we need to maximize our hall of fame QB now.... I know they’ve tried to fix things on the lines but, but geez.... their top 4 picks in the draft should be OL and DL, would be a good start and go aggressive in FA

[obiken]

I think so and have for a long time. How many years in a row now have we fans, and the media, told PC to get some quality Offensive Lineman, but no, he wont.

[jshawaii22]

there's this thing called a 'salary cap'... evidently the league just doesn't allow us to 'go out and sign everyone' we want, you actually have to pay for them. Injuries killed us this year, both long-term and over the last few games. Certainly, you can blame the loss on the OLine, but it was actually the DLine that hurt us the most. No pass rush puts way too much pressure on the D-Backs.

[RiverDog]

Obviously the genesis of this thread is from an article published in USA Today entitled "If Pete Carroll won't change, the Seahawks need to move on before he wastes Russell Wilson's prime", where among other things, the author called out Pete Carroll for not going for it on 4th and 11 at our own 36 with 3:22 remaining with all 3 timeouts and the 2 minute warning:

After Preston Smith brought Wilson down for a six-yard sack on third down, the ball was back in Carroll’s court: Would he take the conservative route and punt the ball back to Green Bay, or would he let his quarterback try to make a play, as he had done all game?

Converting on 4th-and-11 is no easy task, but Carroll had watched his elite quarterback do the impossible all season; he’d also watched his defense fail to make key stops time after time over the course of 17 games. In the past, it would have made sense to ask the Seahawks defense to come up with one more stop. This season, it did not. The ball had to be put in Wilson’s hands. Carroll thought otherwise.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/01/pete-c ... R45-XLSvjc

This is just plain absurd. Conservative route? Give me a frigging break! It was the smart route. I don't know what the motivation of the author of the article and/or the purpose of the thread is, but I have this sneaking suspicion that it's more about Russell's career than it is about the Seahawks winning another Lombardi.

[Hawktawk]

Obviously the genesis of this thread is from an article published in USA Today entitled "If Pete Carroll won't change, the Seahawks need to move on before he wastes Russell Wilson's prime", where among other things, the author called out Pete Carroll for not going for it on 4th and 11 at our own 36 with 3:22 remaining with all 3 timeouts and the 2 minute warning:

After Preston Smith brought Wilson down for a six-yard sack on third down, the ball was back in Carroll’s court: Would he take the conservative route and punt the ball back to Green Bay, or would he let his quarterback try to make a play, as he had done all game?

Converting on 4th-and-11 is no easy task, but Carroll had watched his elite quarterback do the impossible all season; he’d also watched his defense fail to make key stops time after time over the course of 17 games. In the past, it would have made sense to ask the Seahawks defense to come up with one more stop. This season, it did not. The ball had to be put in Wilson’s hands. Carroll thought otherwise.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/01/pete-c ... R45-XLSvjc

This is just plain absurd. Conservative route? Give me a frigging break! It was the smart route. I don't know what the motivation of the author of the article and/or the purpose of the thread is, but I have this sneaking suspicion that it's more about Russell's career than it is about the Seahawks winning another Lombardi.

In real time I said 11 yards is a long ways but we have to go. Our gassed D isn't stopping Rodgers again. Put it in Wilson's hand , not the defense.

We saw what happened. In hindsight punting was the wrong call,barely. Had they failed they still had 3 timeouts and the 2 minute warning and had they held it to a field goal attempt they still had a chance to tie. It's always easy playing monday morning coach

As for "wasting Wilsons prime"? gimme a break. The teams he's playing on are making Wilsons prime, putting him on a trajectory for Canton. Russ has drug several extremely mediocre clubs to the playoffs and even in losing he was magnificent, leading his team in rushing the second straight postseason game while posting a 109 passer rating. The last month with basically no credible running threat, no line, 4 or less healthy receivers, a tight end off the practice squad its been Wilson making the difference. Its his reputation, his calling card. I'm optimistic about this team next year if everyone's healthy but Russells prime is doing just fine. Ask HOF guys like Marino, Fouts, Jim Kelley what they think of Russell's resume so far...

[Oly]

If the Hawks were regularly spending under the cap, then I'd say "yeah, they're wasting it." But Wilson's salary makes it difficult for him. It's incredibly difficult to build a championship roster with a QB on a mega deal. It basically means the FO can't make mistakes and needs to stay pretty healthy. So I don't think you can say the organization is wasting his prime.

But what about Carroll, as the article suggests? I think that's bollocks. Pete is the 2nd most accomplished head coach over the last decade. To argue that his poor decision making is wasting Wilson's prime is to basically argue that anything short of historically great would waste it. He's certainly not perfect, and being more aggressive on 4th and short in midfield and being better at time management would be better IMO. But the coaches who I can point to who would be better than Pete in those areas don't have nearly his track record, so he's clearly doing a lot of other stuff better than 30 other coaches in the league.

[NorthHawk]

I don't agree with the statement that Wilson's contract is binding them from adding players that help him achieve team goals.
It's a matter of having mismanaged the Cap and some unexpected injuries like to Kam who was a $10 million drag on it.
This year the team has near $70 million in Cap space and a whole lot of draft picks, so we may see an influx of talent
that will help out a lot. It depends on how they use the money.

[RiverDog]

In real time I said 11 yards is a long ways but we have to go. Our gassed D isn't stopping Rodgers again. Put it in Wilson's hand , not the defense.

We saw what happened. In hindsight punting was the wrong call,barely. Had they failed they still had 3 timeouts and the 2 minute warning and had they held it to a field goal attempt they still had a chance to tie. It's always easy playing monday morning coach

I disagree completely. To a person, all NFL coaches would have made the exact same call given that situation. Only rarely do they not send out the punt team on 4th down with the ball in your own territory with more than a couple yards to go unless it's pure desperation and never in a situation where they have 3 timeout and with 3+ minutes left trailing by one score no matter how their defense was playing or who their quarterback was. It was the right call, period.

Russell and the offense had their chance. The defense got them the ball back with 5 minutes left in the game and a full compliment of timeouts down by 5. That was a perfect scenario for a comeback win or at least to take the lead. To suggest that Pete lost the game and is wasting Wilson's prime because he "took the ball out of Russell's hands" in that situation is preposterous.

Of course, you can use 20/20 hindsight to criticize any decision, but this one doesn't pass the smell test. You might as well say "Pete should have started Marshawn Lynch at quarterback because we lost anyway, and who knows?" It would make nearly as much sense.

[obiken]

River on PC and Wilson, I think we both agree with Pete that: 1, we should be a run first team, which improves RW's Play action ability. 2. The problem we have with Pete is personnel management. He has not drafted one good OLineman since Okung. He always drops down, gets more picks, and the OLine is dog food. 3. Our Defense was not Championship class this year, Clowney has to go, too injury prone. We have to find a good cover corner, and/or a long term Pass rusher. I am I wrong?

[RiverDog]

River on PC and Wilson, I think we both agree with Pete that: 1, we should be a run first team, which improves RW's Play action ability. 2. The problem we have with Pete is personnel management. He has not drafted one good OLineman since Okung. He always drops down, gets more picks, and the OLine is dog food. 3. Our Defense was not Championship class this year, Clowney has to go, too injury prone. We have to find a good cover corner, and/or a long term Pass rusher. I am I wrong?

I don't agree with #3. Every player has a certain degree of injury risk associated with them, but I don't see anything chronic or problematic with Clowney. Plus his upside his huge. He's just coming into the prime of his career, turns 27 next month. He was the one difference maker that we had on the defense. IMO we'll go after him hard this offseason. Improving our pass rush is the #1 offseason priority, and it's going to put us behind the curve if we don't bring back our biggest playmaker. You improve by addition, not by subtraction. I don't see us letting him go unless it's due to a completely outrageous contract demand.

[obiken]

I don't agree with #3. Every player has a certain degree of injury risk associated with them, but I don't see anything chronic or problematic with Clowney. Plus his upside his huge. He's just coming into the prime of his career, turns 27 next month. He was the one difference maker that we had on the defense. IMO we'll go after him hard this offseason. Improving our pass rush is the #1 offseason priority, and it's going to put us behind the curve if we don't bring back our biggest playmaker. You improve by addition, not by subtraction. I don't see us letting him go unless it's due to a completely outrageous contract demand.

Okay, but he was Wounded at the Texans, and wounded with us. I guess it will come down to the money. I would pass.

[NorthHawk]

Who could you replace him with at a lesser cost?
He isn't just a pass rusher, he disrupts the run plays, too. That's a rare combination.
With a better supporting cast like another DE that can apply pressure and a stout DL inside,
he would have better numbers, and our secondary would take a big leap forward statistically.

[RiverDog]

Okay, but he was Wounded at the Texans, and wounded with us. I guess it will come down to the money. I would pass.

Obi, I swear, you don't want to pay anybody. We don't even know what his demands are and you're already passing.

[Klanky]

Overall Clowney was great, and if it makes sense money wise and terms to lockup Clowney. The biggest problem this year regarding pass rush was a non factor/ injured Ziggy, and zip out out of Collier and suspensions from others, Reed seemed to really never get it going after his suspension, and woods suspension didn’t help in the overall depth and rotation help of the DL.... I think what is not helping is basically nonexistent young drafted players on the DL coming thru at all, only one I can think of that helped was green.... the last couple years for Great DL help has been a nightmare.... aka ; McDowell and Collier

[NorthHawk]

I'm giving Collier a pass for this season. It's a difficult jump from College to the NFL, and missing much of TC
makes it a lot harder to develop. 2020 will show whether he has a future or not, and I suspect he will be much
better at DE. That's not to say he's going to dominate, but I hope to see some flashes of why he was drafted
in the 1st round and maybe be a valuable member of a rotation.

[Klanky]

1st round draft pick Collier even with the slow start should have done something anything, last game was a healthy scratch... I never noticed one time he was ever on the field.... bosa a 1st round pick seemed to do (ok) his rookie year, but our 1st round pick didn’t do even a microscopic fraction of what bosa did on the field

[RiverDog]

1st round draft pick Collier even with the slow start should have done something anything, last game was a healthy scratch... I never noticed one time he was ever on the field.... bosa a 1st round pick seemed to do (ok) his rookie year, but our 1st round pick didn’t do even a microscopic fraction of what bosa did on the field

I agree. Although it's way too early to be mentioning the "B" word, no matter how you slice it, Collier was a disappointment and should have contributed more than he did. For some reason, we don't seem to get a lot of mileage out of our top picks, Metcalf being an exception.

Having said that, Nick Bosa is a once in a generation player, or at least he has that kind of potential, and it's not fair to compare his success with anyone.

[NorthHawk]

I think people underestimate the importance of the reps in TC and the intensive coaching that can't go on during
the season. Once a player gets behind the 8 ball, it's rare that they catch up that year, and Collier missed almost
the entire TC, so it's no wonder we didn't see much from him.

[c_hawkbob]

Wasting Wilson's prime? If the objective is to maximize Russ' lifetime stats so that he will be thought of as the best that ever played, yes. But if the objective is to win as many games and championships as possible then no, we're not.

Individual stats are great and all, but winning is gooder.

[Anthony]

Yes we are. We all have seen almost every game we f around for a half, and then decide well we are behind lets let Wilson loose and play the offensive scheme that works. But PC has said

I want to keep it close and win in the end
you cant win in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd
We use the first half to test the defense.

[c_hawkbob]

We use the first half to test the defense.

Which has a lot to do with why we're so successful in the 2nd half.

[RiverDog]

Wasting Wilson's prime? If the objective is to maximize Russ' lifetime stats so that he will be thought of as the best that ever played, yes. But if the objective is to win as many games and championships as possible then no, we're not.

Individual stats are great and all, but winning is gooder.

Bravo! I couldn't have said it better!

And if we were playing Scrabble, I'd challenge the underlined word.

[Anthony]

Which has a lot to do with why we're so successful in the 2nd half.

It might, it might not. The few times we started out playing the uptempo and did it the whole game we won.

[Anthony]

Wasting Wilson's prime? If the objective is to maximize Russ' lifetime stats so that he will be thought of as the best that ever played, yes. But if the objective is to win as many games and championships as possible then no, we're not.

Individual stats are great and all, but winning is gooder.

we have not even been to the SB since 2014 and beyond the 2nd round since 2014, so its not working. However, would it if we just let him off the leases earlier? Good question that we should find out before we say no. For all we know if we did we would have 3 more SBs by now, or we miss the playoffs, however why not try at least 1 year and see?

[obiken]

We have not even been to the SB since 2014 and beyond the 2nd round since 2014, so its not working. However, would it if we just let him off the leases earlier? Good question that we should find out before we say no. For all we know if we did we would have 3 more SBs by now, or we miss the playoffs, however why not try at least 1 year and see?

I agree Anthony, say what you want nothing changes next year. I dont know about the leash argument, but We will still have RW running around, making plays, hoping at 30 he doesn't get hurt, and we end up as 2nd rounders at best. We need major upgrades on Defense and Offense to take us from a playoff team to Championship class.

[Aseahawkfan]

Nope. Football is a sport with a lot of movement. Only team in the modern era that had similar success to the old dynasties was the Patriots and they look done. We're in competition every year. New teams rise and fall, but we're in it nearly every year since Pete been here. He's giving Wilson every chance to shine. We can get better and we'd all like more Super Bowls, but playoff runs every year but one under Wilson are not wasted years. Seattle fans are making themselves look like every other fan base out there that forgets their past and bad years and thinks this is somehow wasted years. We had a bunch of years of not competing and being ousted early. We didn't compete this well under Holmgren. I'm not sure what Seattle fans expect.

Now if Pete and John can just get the defense rebuild and continue with the old philosophy they got back to last year, then we can get some more SB runs. No more trading for Percy's and Graham's and temporary fixes that don't work with high draft picks. Stick to the method that worked: churn the roster, low cost high value trade deals, and drafting well. Then letting everyone compete an the cream rises. That is the path back to the SB.

[trents]

As has been pointed out, resigning Wilson and to a mega contract was a two-edged sword because of the salary cap and having the bucks to bring in talent to fill other shortcomings team-wide. But you can't really argue with the fact that a team cannot excel without and excellent QB even though they have solid components in every other dimension of the game. The QB is the king pin.

I wish Russ had been willing to accept a smaller amount for the good of the team. What's he getting, $30 million? What can you do with $30 million that you can't do with $20 million?

[Agent 86]

Nope, it's just such a competitive league, no one is guaranteed a championship. I get the sentiment that RW3 has carried this team for the last few years and the surrounding talent hasn't exactly been where it needs to be, but I would not say it is "wasting" his prime away. The team has still been competitive and in the mix for the most part, just seems a few pieces away.

One thing I have to remind myself is the defense the 'Hawks had from 2012-2016 was elite, it was special, it was one of the best in football history. I don't expect to see another Seahawks defense of that caliber in my lifetime. We all saw what a championship defense that was, just incredible. But I don't think Pete will ever duplicate that level of success. That is not to say he can't build another great defense, just not that caliber.

It is the one thing that scares me a bit about the rise of the 49'ers. Their defense has the potential to be special I think, and it is only the beginning, kind of our 2012 version. I think they may have a bit of a run coming up where they dominate for a few seasons on that side of the ball. The Hawks need to get to a level of defense that the 49'ers had during the 2011-2014 years, it was really good as well, just the Seahawks were that much better. We all know the best path to the Super Bowl is getting the #1 seed and HFA, something the "Hawks haven't had since 2015. With the 49'ers on the rise, the #5 seed is quite possibly the best the 'Hawks will do for the next couple years.

[Klanky]

Even with Wilson’s salary, the hawks have about 60 mil. In cap space, and a bunch of draft picks so with all that we should be able to fill our carts with some good stuff... (players) lol

[obiken]

Even with Wilson’s salary, the hawks have about 60 mil. In cap space, and a bunch of draft picks so with all that we should be able to fill our carts with some good stuff... (players) lol

Sure should but will they?

[RiverDog]

Nope. Football is a sport with a lot of movement. Only team in the modern era that had similar success to the old dynasties was the Patriots and they look done. We're in competition every year. New teams rise and fall, but we're in it nearly every year since Pete been here. He's giving Wilson every chance to shine. We can get better and we'd all like more Super Bowls, but playoff runs every year but one under Wilson are not wasted years. Seattle fans are making themselves look like every other fan base out there that forgets their past and bad years and thinks this is somehow wasted years. We had a bunch of years of not competing and being ousted early. We didn't compete this well under Holmgren. I'm not sure what Seattle fans expect.

Nope, it's just such a competitive league, no one is guaranteed a championship. I get the sentiment that RW3 has carried this team for the last few years and the surrounding talent hasn't exactly been where it needs to be, but I would not say it is "wasting" his prime away. The team has still been competitive and in the mix for the most part, just seems a few pieces away.

One thing I have to remind myself is the defense the 'Hawks had from 2012-2016 was elite, it was special, it was one of the best in football history. I don't expect to see another Seahawks defense of that caliber in my lifetime. We all saw what a championship defense that was, just incredible. But I don't think Pete will ever duplicate that level of success. That is not to say he can't build another great defense, just not that caliber.

I agree with both of these thoughts. People forget that one of the factors that led to the Patriots dynasty is that they had the benefit of playing in the most dysfunctional division of all of football. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills have gone through a combined 21 head coaches since the turn of the century, or 20 years. Most years they advance just their division champ to the playoffs. No other division has come close to that kind of futility.

I certainly sympathize with a lot of you folks over our failed bid to get back to the Super Bowl. We've been spoiled, and we have come to expect more than we've been given over these past 4 or 5 seasons. But our best chance to get back to the Promised Land is to stay the course and let Pete make the calls.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with both of these thoughts. People forget that one of the factors that led to the Patriots dynasty is that they had the benefit of playing in the most dysfunctional division of all of football. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills have gone through a combined 21 head coaches since the turn of the century, or 20 years. Most years they advance just their division champ to the playoffs. No other division has come close to that kind of futility.

I certainly sympathize with a lot of you folks over our failed bid to get back to the Super Bowl. We've been spoiled, and we have come to expect more than we've been given over these past 4 or 5 seasons. But our best chance to get back to the Promised Land is to stay the course and let Pete make the calls.

I feel our best chance of another championship caliber team is for Pete to get the defense and run game rebuilt, moreso the defense. Pete Ball doesn't work as well unless you have a defense that can get stops. Right now our defense is nowhere near a Pete Carroll caliber defense. They have some good pieces, but not a complete defense. Need some young buck pass rushers and another good safety and corner to really get back to a dominant defense.

[RiverDog]

I feel our best chance of another championship caliber team is for Pete to get the defense and run game rebuilt, moreso the defense. Pete Ball doesn't work as well unless you have a defense that can get stops. Right now our defense is nowhere near a Pete Carroll caliber defense. They have some good pieces, but not a complete defense. Need some young buck pass rushers and another good safety and corner to really get back to a dominant defense.

The problem is that our success in getting to the playoffs has caused us to draft from the high 20's as we will again this year. The Niners rebuilt their team by being able to draft in the top 10 for a number of years. That's how they were able to end up with an impact player like Nick Bosa. Pete was able to draft well in his first year due in no small part to Mora's tanking of the 2009 season and a very good trade made by Tim Ruskell that netted us Earl Thomas.

It will be interesting to see how it goes this offseason. The first order of business is deciding on which of our 20 free agent players we're going to want to keep then how much change we have left over, assuming we do what it takes to keep Clowney in the fold. IMO John Schneider did a phenomenal job with what he had to work with last season.

[Rambo2014]

Well boys we are now 0-0 LOL

Clowney is only player we want

Clowney in new LA digs in 2020 playing alongside Arron Donald in the SB

[NorthHawk]

The problem is that our success in getting to the playoffs has caused us to draft from the high 20's as we will again this year. The Niners rebuilt their team by being able to draft in the top 10 for a number of years. That's how they were able to end up with an impact player like Nick Bosa. Pete was able to draft well in his first year due in no small part to Mora's tanking of the 2009 season and a very good trade made by Tim Ruskell that netted us Earl Thomas.

It will be interesting to see how it goes this offseason. The first order of business is deciding on which of our 20 free agent players we're going to want to keep then how much change we have left over, assuming we do what it takes to keep Clowney in the fold. IMO John Schneider did a phenomenal job with what he had to work with last season.

There seems to be a point of view out there that any player drafted in the first round should be an immediate impact player.
The reality is there is usually only a few players in any draft with true 1st round talent. Most of the time that talent only
gets to about 15 or 17 before there is a fall off. Each draft is different, and gems can be found later, but in general, there are
tiers of talent so that fits into JS plan to trade down. Drafting in the latter half of the 1st round is really selecting 2nd and in
some bad drafts almost 3rd round talent. So it's much easier for teams that are perennially on the bottom to accumulate good
players that can impact a game than for teams like Seattle who are usually drafting near the bottom of the rounds.

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem is that our success in getting to the playoffs has caused us to draft from the high 20's as we will again this year. The Niners rebuilt their team by being able to draft in the top 10 for a number of years. That's how they were able to end up with an impact player like Nick Bosa. Pete was able to draft well in his first year due in no small part to Mora's tanking of the 2009 season and a very good trade made by Tim Ruskell that netted us Earl Thomas.

It will be interesting to see how it goes this offseason. The first order of business is deciding on which of our 20 free agent players we're going to want to keep then how much change we have left over, assuming we do what it takes to keep Clowney in the fold. IMO John Schneider did a phenomenal job with what he had to work with last season.

We don't need as much work as the Niners. Very few of our guys were top picks. The best top pick we had was Earl. Wags was 2nd. KJ 4th. Russell 3rd. You don't need a lot of high picks to build a good team. We need to get back to doing what Pete and John were doing when they first got there: relentlessly pursuing talent anywhere they could find and bringing in a bunch of people to compete until gems were found.

[RiverDog]

We don't need as much work as the Niners. Very few of our guys were top picks. The best top pick we had was Earl. Wags was 2nd. KJ 4th. Russell 3rd. You don't need a lot of high picks to build a good team. We need to get back to doing what Pete and John were doing when they first got there: relentlessly pursuing talent anywhere they could find and bringing in a bunch of people to compete until gems were found.

We've also made some really big reaches that didn't fare nearly as well as those three, like James Carpenter, Bruce Irvin, LJ Collier, Rashaad Penny, and Germain Ifedi, players other teams had going much later in the draft mainly because the can't miss players were gone by the time our turn came.

But you do have a point in that we don't have as many gaps to fill as a team coming off a 4 or 5 win season.

[Hawktawk]

Russell and the offense had their chance. The defense got them the ball back with 5 minutes left in the game and a full compliment of timeouts down by 5. That was a perfect scenario for a comeback win or at least to take the lead. To suggest that Pete lost the game and is wasting Wilson's prime because he "took the ball out of Russell's hands" in that situation is preposterous.

Of course, you can use 20/20 hindsight to criticize any decision, but this one doesn't pass the smell test. You might as well say "Pete should have started Marshawn Lynch at quarterback because we lost anyway, and who knows?" It would make nearly as much sense.

That's a ridiculous analogy RD.What Lynch has to do with it is a mystery and quite a stretch on the facts. What I as the coach would have decided is " our D is gassed, they aren't going to get a stop, Im putting it in the hands of my all world QB ". Im at least lining up, hoping to get an offsides but if not go for it. Its what my instinct told me watching it on TV. I'd rather it wasnt 11 yards but let Wilson create and make Shanahan earn his money. Don't leave bullets in the chamber.

They punted. They lost. They never got it back. It was the wrong call on that day and it's ridiculous to say otherwise. The decision ended the game. Like at the end of SB 49 we dont know for sure what would have happened if they handed it off but we know what did happen.

In the 2013 NFC title game Russ threw a long TD pass to Kearse on 4th and 7. He threw a 35 yard one to Moore in Carolina on 4th and long last year. it's not unheard of for them to go for it but they played it safe with the season on the line and they are done.

[TriCitySam]

Going for it on 4th and 11 would have been a much longer shot that asking our weak D to get them out, period. It would likely have played out as it did, with RW on his back. Given all the injuries, I think they wrung as much out of this season as possible.

What I really don't understand, and this is off topic: Given JS success in finding some really good players late, why are we so pathetic with our early picks? Granted we've had some success, but Collier seems to be the rule, not the exception. I mean, of the top picks you've got Frank Clark and Okung that became quality starters, the rest??

[RiverDog]

Going for it on 4th and 11 would have been a much longer shot that asking our weak D to get them out, period. It would likely have played out as it did, with RW on his back. Given all the injuries, I think they wrung as much out of this season as possible.

What I really don't understand, and this is off topic: Given JS success in finding some really good players late, why are we so pathetic with our early picks? Granted we've had some success, but Collier seems to be the rule, not the exception. I mean, of the top picks you've got Frank Clark and Okung that became quality starters, the rest??

Earl Thomas was the #13 overall, and I'd say he did pretty well.

But recently, Metcalf was a 2nd round pick and is arguably the steal of the draft. Justin Britt was a 2nd round pick, and after failing at two other positions, found a home at center, and our friend North Hawk would remind you that Germain Ifedi has been a 4 year starter.

But I hear what you're saying. I don't know if our top picks have a higher rate of failure than other teams or not, but it sure seems like we haven't been getting very much mileage out of them.