Iran: What next?

[Aseahawkfan]

So we hit some Iranian military bigwigs after our embassy was attacked by some Iranian supported militias in Iraq. Personally, Iran has had this coming for a long time as far as I'm concerned. They stepped out of line to test us further and they got the pop in the nose they been asking for. As far as I'm concerned if Iran retaliates as the rhetoric out of Iran indicates, then we should be prepared to level parts of that nation and dismantle their military apparatus. We don't need to go into their nation, but we should be prepared to knock out major parts of their military capacity escalating as needed to neutralize their threat. They are extremely tiresome.

What do you all think? Did we go too far? Do they get to back non-state actors like militias to attack our embassy and we sit back and pretend they didn't do it because it wasn't official? I'm done watching Middle Eastern nations use proxy militias and terrorists myself. These other nations keep pushing us, time to rip some people up. The world should know by now America is a not some nation that will cower to threats. You threaten us, we will fight. That is our way from the very founding of our nation.

[RiverDog]

I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude. I'm glad that we retaliated like we did as it seemed to be an appropriate and measured response designed to protect American lives, but I'm not anxious to get into another war like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"What next" is largely up to the Iranians as the ball's in their court. If they choose to escalate the confrontation, then we meet it, but with the kicker that we do the minimum necessary to protect the people we have in the country.

[Hawktawk]

I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude. I'm glad that we retaliated like we did as it seemed to be an appropriate and measured response designed to protect American lives, but I'm not anxious to get into another war like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"What next" is largely up to the Iranians as the ball's in their court. If they choose to escalate the confrontation, then we meet it, but with the kicker that we do the minimum necessary to protect the people we have in the country.

I read an article this morning describing the thought process leading up to the strike. I'd link it but it wants a subscription to read the whole article. I already read it earlier so I'll try to relay the bullet points by memory .
The simmering Trump escalated proxy war with Iran had further escalated with the rocket attack that killed a US contractor and injured several others. The US responded fairly aggressively with multiple airstrikes killing many Iranian insurgents. Iran and anti US forces then surrounded the US Embassy, set fires then basically staged a sit in protesting america. US troops were dispatched and the protesters/terrorists and whoever else was involved followed orders to disperse.

Trump was briefed on a range of options regarding Iranian behavior. Trump chose the option of killing this guy. His advisors and brass were reportedly surprised and reminded him that he had not taken any action despite a drone shoot down,attacks on tankers and the drone attack on a saudi refinery, advised him of potential ramifications. But he was concerned his earlier actions against Iran had looked "weak" and was adamant to take this course. This is what an unpredictable pathologically narcissistic commander in chief does.
The next act was the killing/assassination or whatever of the second most powerful man in Iran and really an idol in the anti Israel, anti USA Arab world. Of course Trump called it in from the golf course. That isn't what I would call an appropriate measured response incinerating a guy driving down the highway in BAGHDAD IRAQ like he had for the last 5 years at least. Britain is reportedly livid. Iraq is reevaluating their relationship with America.

Nobody beyond Bernie Sanders and Illian Omar is crying any tears for this scumbag at all. Its the timing that's very suspicious as though we are supposed to believe this administration at this point about anything, much less something this controversial.It was wag the dog from hell and Trump was blazing it out to a crowd of fawning evangelicals just last night, today on twitter etc. It was a campaign ad, impeachment distraction move plain as day. Hes referred to Chuck Schumer as being just like this Iranian General. Not a presidential bone in his body.

I also wonder why GW, Obama who for all the criticism of being weak on terror was the drone king killing thousands of terrorists, and especially Israel who is in far greater peril from Iran haven't taken the guy out in 20 years?
Their reason was concern about taking out a very highest ranking military and government official from a sovereign nation might cause greater unrest. Time will tell how it will shake out, people are in the streets and I heard about a couple of rockets being fired at the US embassy in Iraq. Iran has missiles that can reach any US base in the middle east. Clearly they understand an all out war with America is unwinnable but no doubt many american lives and those of our allies are at risk more than ever. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Keep your head on a swivel folks.

[RiverDog]

Trump was briefed on a range of options regarding Iranian behavior. Trump chose the option of killing this guy. His advisors and brass were reportedly surprised and reminded him that he had not taken any action despite a drone shoot down,attacks on tankers and the drone attack on a saudi refinery, advised him of potential ramifications. But he was concerned his earlier actions against Iran had looked "weak" and was adamant to take this course. This is what an unpredictable pathologically narcissistic commander in chief does.

No more than a professional football team wants their offense or defense to be "predictable" do we want our adversaries thinking that they know how we will respond given certain contingencies. We want to place serious doubt in their minds that we might just pull the trigger if they go too far. I want Iran thinking that Trump is exactly as you're always portraying him as: An unpredictable goofy lunatic with the codes to the missiles that could wipe out their country in a matter of a couple hours.

If Trump was, indeed, reflective and critical of his own previous actions, it would be an indication of the exact opposite of what you're contending. I've always thought that Trump was "pathologically narcissistic" because he could never admit to anyone that he was wrong about anything...his speech praising revolutionary army for taking airports (blamed it on a teleprompter), his attempt to cover up his mistake regarding a hurricane strike in Alabama (coercing NOAA to revise forecasts), etc. Now we have information that he is actually self critical of his previous actions and you're saying it's evidence of him being "pathologically narcissistic"?

[Hawktawk]

Trump IS who I correctly point out he is. An unstable lunatic. He’s got no business having anything whatsoever to do with the military. Any military adventure led by him terrifies me and most thinking folks. And it’s particularly rich that asea is suddenly in favor of military intervention

[RiverDog]

Trump IS who I correctly point out he is. An unstable lunatic. He’s got no business having anything whatsoever to do with the military. Any military adventure led by him terrifies me and most thinking folks. And it’s particularly rich that asea is suddenly in favor of military intervention

That may or may not be, but you can't use the information you pointed out as evidence that Trump is a "pathological narcissist" as was your accusation, to the contrary, the ability to be self critical is the exact opposite trait associated with narcissism.

Can you imagine how frightened the Iranians must be if their appraisal of Trump is similar to yours? They know that we have the power to squish them like a bug.

[c_hawkbob]

Pathological Narcissism. A person with narcissistic personality disorder generally has a distorted sense of importance or ability. In clinical terms, they tend to have grandiose thoughts about their social value, particularly in relation to other people.

I believe no supporting evidence is necessary, Trump defines himself as this by every tweet and campaign rally speech.

Not that he's got a corner on the Pathological Narcissism market in the political world ... but I cannot see how there can be doubt that he is indeed every inch that.

[RiverDog]

Pathological Narcissism. A person with narcissistic personality disorder generally has a distorted sense of importance or ability. In clinical terms, they tend to have grandiose thoughts about their social value, particularly in relation to other people.

I believe no supporting evidence is necessary, Trump defines himself as this by every tweet and campaign rally speech.

Not that he's got a corner on the Pathological Narcissism market in the political world ... but I cannot see how there can be doubt that he is indeed every inch that.

I agree, both with your definition and your follow up comment. But I wasn't presenting any evidence. What I was doing was objecting to the evidence that Hawktalk was presenting when he said this:

But he (Trump) was concerned his earlier actions against Iran had looked "weak" and was adamant to take this course. This is what an unpredictable pathologically narcissistic commander in chief does.

I'm not saying that Trump isn't a narcissist, to the contrary, I believe he's the most self aggrandizing megalomaniac I've ever seen in a position of authority in my lifetime. It's just that particular statement would tend to support the opposite in that Trump was being self critical of previous decisions of his.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree, both with your definition and your follow up comment. But I wasn't presenting any evidence. What I was doing was objecting to the evidence that Hawktalk was presenting when he said this:

But he (Trump) was concerned his earlier actions against Iran had looked "weak" and was adamant to take this course. This is what an unpredictable pathologically narcissistic commander in chief does.

I'm not saying that Trump isn't a narcissist, just that particular statement would tend to support the opposite.

Not sure why you try, but good on you for trying to maintain objectivity in this time of lies, hyperbole, and general rubbish from all sides. The anti-Trump crowd would paint anything Trump does in a negative light. He could spend his day walking little old ladies across the street and they would find something negative to say along with the anti-Trump press. They hate him and all their views are through that lens. Which is why hating someone doesn't allow for objective analysis. That's why anything the anti-Trump folk say can be trusted about as much as what comes out of Trump's mouth. You have to constantly analyze the information because they will twist everything to a Trump attack or negative. I noticed that with the press as well where they are trying to attack this economy with lots of but, but, but because they can't stand to see something going well with Trump in office.

Everyone who has followed the Iranian situation close at all knows this was a long time coming. Iran has been killing our guys, funding anti-American rhetoric in Iraq, and generally acting against us for quite a while. They got a taste of what will come if they continue. I don't care if who is president, this was a solid response to their actions.

You know what is amusing. The environment is not prevalent only in politics. I follow fitness and nutrition closely. There are a lot of lies and ignorance there as well. And of course investing is filled with BS. It's unbelievable how prone humans are to lying, confirmation bias, and a variety of other behaviors that make for a very unscientific and ignorant world. People are driven far more by emotions than they are by logic. It's a far cry from what humans think they are compared to what they actually are. It is unfortunate as the world would run a great deal better if people were more logical and educated.

[RiverDog]

You know what is amusing. The environment is not prevalent only in politics. I follow fitness and nutrition closely. There are a lot of lies and ignorance there as well. And of course investing is filled with BS. It's unbelievable how prone humans are to lying, confirmation bias, and a variety of other behaviors that make for a very unscientific and ignorant world. People are driven far more by emotions than they are by logic. It's a far cry from what humans think they are compared to what they actually are. It is unfortunate as the world would run a great deal better if people were more logical and educated.

That's true. I remember when I was growing up that my parents used to invite a door-to-door salesman, the "Fuller Brush Man", into our home for coffee and let him go through his sales pitch. Every phone call was answered politely. When my mom was sick, she would call to the corner grocery store and the owner sacked up what she needed and delivered it to our house. It's no wonder why so many people in the older generation that grew up trusting everyone are so susceptible to scams.

The average American is an idiot. When debating the electoral college, I'll point out that one of the arguments for it back in the 18th century was that the common man was too stupid to be trusted with something as consequential as a vote. When I read things like 30% of all adult Americans can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, it makes one realize how right the founding fathers were and how society hasn't progressed beyond what we were 250 years ago.

That's one of the things that concerns me so much about Donald Trump is his propensity to just make up things. People believe him.

[Hawktawk]

The point I make is complex when I say this decision was driven by narcissism . according to leaks from someone present Trump said his earlier inaction “ made him look weak” . Not “ I was weak in my response , I was wrong “.

Trump made an extremely over the top call not made by 2 previous adminstrations and Israel because of perception of his image . That’s extreme narcissism by a man who has terrifying power. I see where asea the secret trump admirer is riffing on about trump haters never giving him credit for anything good he does . Of course that’s rubbish. CNN , MSN. Etc credit him for the markets and economy . As a republican Im in agreement with much of the deregulation . I liked the opioid bill. Regardless there were 16 other candidates in 2016 more qualified , dignified , sane, competent with a proven record of accomplishment and governance. No amount of agreeable policy is an excuse to leave a corrupt unfit person in office.

Beyond that his *accomplishments* are the worst most screwed up foreign relations I can remember in my life . Coddling dictators , attacking allies . Rocket man, suppine in Helsinki .Abandon the Kurds then drone the second most powerful man in a sovereign state while he’s driving down the highway in response to unrest created by his decision to rip up a signed deal.

Trump made America’s word worthless . It wasn’t Obamas signature . It was America’s . I don’t blame Iran for being pushed about being betrayed although I never condone terror. But the rocket attacks on allied positions had been very limited since 2011. A couple of years of turning down the screws , devastating the economy and now they are striking back.

And it was wag the dog. Only a fool thinks a guy who has been traveling openly for 5 years needed popped then and there In an allied country out of dire national security .

The statement about imminent threats is hard to swallow coming from this administration. Looks to me like all the evacuations of oil workers and civilians , fortifying US positions etc happened AFTER this killing . Correct me if I’m wrong about that. In other news Iraq’s parliament just voted to expel US troops. Our coalition has already suspended training Iraqi forces out of security concerns . Protests continue throughout the Arab world and elsewhere . Again it seems to me this was not a de escalating act ?

[Hawktawk]

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/natio ... story.html

This is the report I've been referring to. And before decrying the "fake media" remember that if there's anything the Mueller report proved its that the leaks were mostly the truth. Its significant to me that this information have to have come from someone very intimately involved with this operation. Patriotic Americans leak to warn the country. Expect more all the time.

[RiverDog]

The point I make is complex when I say this decision was driven by narcissism . according to leaks from someone present Trump said his earlier inaction “ made him look weak” . Not “ I was weak in my response , I was wrong “.

You're arguing over semantics. The point is that you were contending is that his past inaction compared to his decision a few days ago was evidence of his narcissism, a point to which I am disagreeing with you on.

Trump made an extremely over the top call not made by 2 previous adminstrations and Israel because of perception of his image . That’s extreme narcissism by a man who has terrifying power.

Not necessarily. Perception of the POTUS as a "tough guy" not to be messed with is a legitimate reason for him being concerned about his image as it could be a deterrent to our adversaries.

Keep in mind that I'm not disagreeing with your overall analysis of Trump being a narcissist, just that this particular example you're attempting to use does not represent evidence of it. You're seeing and hearing the things Trump says and does within a fixed framework shaped by your own perception of him.

[Hawktawk]

And over the last 48 hours trump tweets about targeting 52 sites in iran including cultural sites. He doubled down on it on AF 1 when asked about attacking culturals sites which is generally considered a war crime. He asserted that his tweets were sufficient notice to congress of his intention to attack Iran. Iraqi parliament voted to seek the expulsion of coalition forces from their country despite the US pleading with them not to do so. Trump's twitter response is if they kick us out we will put extreme sanctions on them that will make Iran's seem "tame". What a superior dealmaker

There's some people whose perception of this lovely competent sober sane president and commander in chief is fixed and also Fd up, fatally complacent. I'm not that guy not are many well known people formerly in his party. I was right from day 1 only I had no idea it would be this bad. Those cabinet officials discussing the 25th amendment early in his term were spot on. God help us..

[I-5]

Can anyone look at this fool who thinks he can 'inform' congress about going on offense without giving the mandatory 48 hours notice in writing, and think this is business as usual or no worse than past presidents? He is a danger not only to the US, but to the entire region, and the world.

[c_hawkbob]

If twitter is now sufficient notification he's giving himself license to do absolutely as he pleases with no oversight.

Congress used to care about retaining it's share of governmental authority, but evidently the Republican Party of Trump has completely wilted in the name of keeping their guy in office.

[RiverDog]

I completely agree with I-5 and Cbob. Using social media to inform Congress? And to think I got hugely pissed off when I had a boss reprimand me via email.

[I-5]

I'm sure he would consider his Twitter policy 'perfect' as well, just like his Ukraine call. When is enough enough for the rest of the grownups?

[RiverDog]

And over the last 48 hours trump tweets about targeting 52 sites in iran including cultural sites.

Trump might have over reached on this one. He's getting some push back from his own cabinet. His defense secretary came out and said that the United States will “follow the laws of armed conflict,” and when asked if that ruled out targeting cultural sites, he responded by saying “That’s the laws of armed conflict.”

It brings up an interesting dilemma. Trump is the commander in chief, and the military is required to do everything and anything he orders them to do....except that he can't tell them to do something that is illegal. For example, if Trump told one of his subordinates to go out and kill Nancy Pelosi, that person would be fully within their rights, indeed, would be legally liable if they didn't, to refuse the order. It was a central principle at the Nuremburg trials in the aftermath of WW2.

As most of you know, I've been a supervisor for 40 years, and one of the first things I was taught as to the limits of my authority was that I couldn't tell someone to do something that was unsafe, illegal, or immoral. That principle extends not only to supervisors, but to anyone in our society that's in the position of an authority, whether it be a teacher and their students, a policeman and the citizens, or a President and the military. It's another example as to why I feel that Trump is a spoiled rich kid that has never had to deal with the limits of his authority. He's never had someone tell him "No, you can't do that".

[I-5]

He's never had someone tell him "No, you can't do that".

I’m sure he’s had many people tell him things like that, but they usually end up being fired or quitting on their own (Kelly, Matthis, Tillerson), so that all who are left are yes men/women. Again, when is enough enough with this petty, childish conman? What will it take?

[RiverDog]

He's never had someone tell him "No, you can't do that".

I’m sure he’s had many people tell him things like that, but they usually end up being fired or quitting on their own (Kelly, Matthis, Tillerson), so that all who are left are yes men/women. Again, when is enough enough with this petty, childish conman? What will it take?

Let me rephrase my statement. Trump has never had to comply with a person telling him that he can't do something. He's never had a boss he's had to reconcile his initial desires with, and as such, never had to compromise on his preferred course of action in order to make those desires of his more acceptable to his superiors. Couple that with his laziness to educate himself and you get these half baked, uninformed statements like the one threatening to bomb cultural sites.

Additionally, I was speaking of throughout Trump's life, not just the past 3 years. Trump's never had to deal with restraints on his power, at least not in the same manner that 99+% of the rest of us have. In some respects, JFK was much like that, once telling an aid urging restraint that "they can't touch me while I'm alive, and when I'm dead, who gives a sh!t." Trump's taken that same attitude to a much higher level.

Fortunately the Secretary of Defense has said quite bluntly that we're not targeting cultural sites, as well he should. If he were to authorize such an action, he and any other officer that knowingly complied with an illegal order would be subject to prosecution by an international court. Trump cannot order the military to take action of which they know is illegal.

[Hawktawk]

I hear from Trump supporters what a tough guy he is . In the last 3 years he has fired Tillerson , Kelley , Mattis , Comey etc basically on Twitter , career public servants whose boots captain bone spurs draft dodger is not worthy to polish.

In 150 years not one member of the Trump family tree has served in the military.

James Comey found out he had been fired in a television report. Then trump trashed them on Twitter , trashed dead hero’s on Twitter.

The guy would be jerked out of any management position in the country including McDonald’s nigh shift assistant manager. He would be sued by the terminated employees and lose .

Trump is a pussy, a bully who has had security since he was in a diaper and never had a proper ass kicking .

[RiverDog]

I hear from Trump supporters what a tough guy he is . In the last 3 years he has fired Tillerson , Kelley , Mattis , Comey etc basically on Twitter , career public servants whose boots captain bone spurs draft dodger is not worthy to polish.

In 150 years not one member of the Trump family tree has served in the military.

James Comey found out he had been fired in a television report. Then trump trashed them on Twitter , trashed dead hero’s on Twitter.

The guy would be jerked out of any management position in the country including McDonald’s nigh shift assistant manager. He would be sued by the terminated employees and lose .

Trump is a pussy, a bully who has had security since he was in a diaper and never had a proper ass kicking .

Nice rant. Thanks for giving us some new metaphors beyond orange haired witch.

[Hawktawk]

What part of my analysis would you call a "rant"? break it down. What do I say that is untrue beyond the completely appropriate "metaphors". It's just righteous anger at this freak show presidency. One of the saddest, maybe THE saddest is that there are so many complacent ambivalent people like Asea, to a degree yourself and of course the Trumptard base and Republican congress who know full well it's wrong who will vigorously defend everything he does..

Anger and fear for our nation and world stability is the appropriate response to this. Every other view is misguided, naive.

Don't ask me, ask George Conway respected republican attorney and husband of Kellyane Conway, the presidential spokesperson who was tongue tied when asked about Trump's cultural site comments and his twitter is OK for the congressional notification. Talk about a rant Ask Joe Scarborough of the Gingrich contract with America wave and still a staunch conservative. Howe about George Will, Richard Steele first black Republican party chairman? Bill Kristol who was willing to bankrupt himself and lose his Weekly Standard magazine rather than pull a Faux News Rush Limbaugh and defend the indefensible;, the reprehensible.Peggy Noonan, lifelong Republican stalwart. NIcole Wallace, press spokesman for GW. John Heilman, loong time republican strategist for several campaigns.Even Trump bobblehead Ann Coulter is furious over this adventure droning Solemein and turning the middle east into twice the tinder box..

I could go on, the Florida Republican party chairman who sacrificed his position in the party, his law career and many friendships rather than accept this pile of dung. I could go on quite a while but i'm getting carpal tunnel.Yeah I know they are all never trump Rhinos Trump may or may not have 90% of the base but the base is shrinking. Yeah I hate his freakin guts and have no apologies.Plus my metaphors are tame compared to Trump's incessant insults and name calling, attacking dead war heroes, the DOJ, FBI, calling them scum etc. And I'm a bipolar grass janitor and he's the most powerful man on the planet.Can anyone see the problem here?

50+ % who have said there is no way they will vote to reelect says I'm in a distinct majority of americans whether this guy threads the needle in the screwed up rigged electoral college, gets more help from Putin, china,NK, whoever and the world gets another 5 years of chaos. Seeing Trump's unhinged response to his first real self inflicted military crisis It should cause every american to shudder. Imagine a financial crisis, a real actual shooting war

[RiverDog]

What part of my analysis would you call a "rant"? break it down.

Here ya go!

"...career public servants whose boots captain bone spurs draft dodger is not worthy to polish."

The guy would be jerked out of any management position in the country including McDonald’s nigh shift assistant manager.

Trump is a pussy, a bully who has had security since he was in a diaper and never had a proper ass kicking.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, indeed, I've also stated that Trump wouldn't make it in any management position I'm familiar with. It's just that your metaphors are quite inflammatory and would tend to turn a civil exchange into a giant pissing contest.

[I-5]

Inflammatory? Maybe. Inappropriate for this forum? Not at all.

It's also much tamer than the language of our Dear Leader.

[RiverDog]

Inflammatory? Maybe. Inappropriate for this forum? Not at all.

It's also much tamer than the language of our Dear Leader.

Do you care to speculate as to why burrton and Idahawkman, formerly two very heavy contributors, don't frequent this forum anymore?

[I-5]

Are you suggesting Hawktalk's tone is the reason? I hardly think so. My speculation is that this joker of a president is indefensible, and it gets tiring trying to come up with new excuses for his immature and dangerous behaviour.

[RiverDog]

Are you suggesting Hawktalk's tone is the reason? I hardly think so. My speculation is that this joker of a president is indefensible, and it gets tiring trying to come up with new excuses for his immature and dangerous behaviour.

Here's the first paragraph that Hawktalk wrote in a thread he started a little over a year ago titled "Sad decline in forum discourse":

I love this forum OT and Hawks but I feel it's time to say something about the overall derogatory insulting tone of ad hominem attacks in both forums. Ot in particular has become a microcosm of america where there is no middle ground and zero civility. Strongly held beliefs about political things and even sports are older than the internet and one should be able to have a passionate discourse without being attacked as being some sort of mentally unstable person.

I think it entirely possible that we have lost some posters due to over the top theatrics that others may have taken as a ad hominin attack, and I'm not just pointing the finger at Hawktalk. Lord knows I think of him as a friend. Heck, I haven't always been as pure as the wind driven snow, either. I once referred to Trump as a pornstar banger, and it really irritated Idahawkman, so I know he internalized it as an attack against him. Burrton used to react to Hawktalk's many rants by calling him an unstable lunatic, among other things, which is what motivated him to start the thread.

So every once in awhile, I feel it appropriate to point out when we start moving away from civility.

[I-5]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, except that I don't see any glimmer of ad hominem attacks against any poster on this forum. Trump, yes, but he's the subject, not a member of the forum. Do you?

[c_hawkbob]

Tawk has not been derogatory or insulting fellow posters, only to Trump. We have other posters here who are very much more derogatory and insulting to fellow posters on a regular basis. Your singling out Tawk is out of line.

[RiverDog]

I am not calling out Hawktalk for insulting posters, at least not directly, and if I gave anyone that perception, I sincerely apologize. But I do think that if we allow ourselves (and I include myself) to just go off on rants, calling anyone, no matter who it is, a pussy, that it's not going to encourage others that many not share our views to participate, or if they did participate, to retaliate in kind. It's the type of behavior Hawktalk himself complained about that led to his starting the "forum discourse" thread some time ago.

This exchange all started when I sarcastically replied "nice rant" to a long, derisive, slightly profane diatribe of his and Hawk asked for more detail, so I gave it to him. I personally don't have a problem because I agree with most of it. But I don't see it as particularly appealing to others or adding any value to our discussions.

[Aseahawkfan]

Here's the first paragraph that Hawktalk wrote in a thread he started a little over a year ago titled "Sad decline in forum discourse":

I love this forum OT and Hawks but I feel it's time to say something about the overall derogatory insulting tone of ad hominem attacks in both forums. Ot in particular has become a microcosm of america where there is no middle ground and zero civility. Strongly held beliefs about political things and even sports are older than the internet and one should be able to have a passionate discourse without being attacked as being some sort of mentally unstable person.

I think it entirely possible that we have lost some posters due to over the top theatrics that others may have taken as a ad hominin attack, and I'm not just pointing the finger at Hawktalk. Lord knows I think of him as a friend. Heck, I haven't always been as pure as the wind driven snow, either. I once referred to Trump as a pornstar banger, and it really irritated Idahawkman, so I know he internalized it as an attack against him. Burrton used to react to Hawktalk's many rants by calling him an unstable lunatic, among other things, which is what motivated him to start the thread.

So every once in awhile, I feel it appropriate to point out when we start moving away from civility.

The posters have likely left because what's the point? Everyone is pretty set in their view on one side or the other. I only show up to discussion forums for entertainment purposes because I enjoy debate.I know no one is going to change their mind or opinion. This will all be decided over our head. I study all of this as much as possible and I know educated opinions are not what makes voters vote the way they are. If educated debate did, then our country and more importantly our news would operate very differently.

Fortunately most people at the top of the ladder operate with an agenda in mind. It's not always a great agenda for our nation, but it's an agenda with a well thought out plan of action. Even Trump has an agenda and is acting in a manner feels sends the message he wants. If that works out well, we will see.

We got about 11 more months of the looney behavior from the peanut gallery unless Trump wins, then four more years. Then I'll probably bow out. I can't take the 4 more hears of Hawktawk rants or the constant questioning and attacks on the guy even if most Trump invites on himself. The United States is doing quite well under this president. If things continue on, I'll leave the looney left to shout into the nether on their own. You can't have objective or interesting political discussion when it starts off with "I hate Trump..." followed by reasons supported by obviously biased press stories meant to further paint Trump in the light these people already want to see him in. Not much objective discussion when that is the narrative.

[I-5]

If that's the case and we all had the same rose-colored glasses that ASF is wearing regaridng people in charge...what is Trump's possible agenda with pulling out of the Iran deal and assassinating their top general (who no one likes) at an airport instead of on the battlefield? Looks like we might have just entered a war. What's the master plan?

[Aseahawkfan]

If that's the case and we all had the same rose-colored glasses that ASF is wearing regaridng people in charge...what is Trump's possible agenda with pulling out of the Iran deal and assassinating their top general (who no one likes) at an airport instead of on the battlefield? Looks like we might have just entered a war. What's the master plan?

Rose-colored glasses? I wear clear glasses and have been following Iranian interference against us in Iraq and other areas for years. The Iran Deal was terrible. We already discussed that ages ago. It was a terrible deal to fund a nation that stands against us and will stand against us as long as America sides with Israel and Saudi Arabia. As far as assassinating their general, been a long time coming. Like I said, I don't care who is president. This guy had it coming.

Do you really not follow what is going in the Middle East at all? Are you this ignorant of affairs between Iran and Iraq and the balance of power in Middle East period? How can you possibly enter a discussion and not know anything about what is going on?

Don't ask me about things any more if you're not even going to spend the time to educate yourself on what is going on in a region of the world of this importance. Go and start reading if you want to know why this occurred. Stop reading news articles from anti-Trump or pro-Trump sources. Go read on the area and the specific details of how Iran is operating against us in Iraq. Who they are funding. How they are operating against us in Afghanistan and to their interests against Saudi Arabia and the other allies. Then you'll see why things are going down as they are and how this is inevitable.

Iran is never going to capitulate to us as long as we are allied with Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran is the leader of the Shiite power in the Middle East. They are against Saudi Arabia and Israel. They interfere in a lot of nations as well.

You know the Cold War between Russia and America? There has been a "Cold War" equivalent between Shia Iran and the Sunni Muslim world for decades now. Guess which side we're on? Oh wait, you don't which side we're on because you don't spend the time to learn about the situation in the Middle East, you just criticize the guy in office because you hate him. And you expect a rational answer.

How do you even discuss these matters when your viewpoint is based on political bias rather than what has been happening in that region of the world for decades? I don't even know.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's true. I remember when I was growing up that my parents used to invite a door-to-door salesman, the "Fuller Brush Man", into our home for coffee and let him go through his sales pitch. Every phone call was answered politely. When my mom was sick, she would call to the corner grocery store and the owner sacked up what she needed and delivered it to our house. It's no wonder why so many people in the older generation that grew up trusting everyone are so susceptible to scams.

The average American is an idiot. When debating the electoral college, I'll point out that one of the arguments for it back in the 18th century was that the common man was too stupid to be trusted with something as consequential as a vote. When I read things like 30% of all adult Americans can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, it makes one realize how right the founding fathers were and how society hasn't progressed beyond what we were 250 years ago.

That's one of the things that concerns me so much about Donald Trump is his propensity to just make up things. People believe him.

We all know how campaigns work. Trump is a slick salesman. That's how he apparently won.

I know people believe him. My mother is one of those irrational Trump supporters. She eats up Fox News. Then she goes in rants and I have to tell her what is BS and what is not. She insists it's right because the "news reported it." She doesn't read very much and makes it seem like these events happen out of nowhere because she's been asleep at the wheel when it comes to American politics for decades like so many other people. It's tiresome. I have to stop talking to her because I don't want to hear the lying BS.

I get the feeling from this forum and the people I talk to that they don't pay attention to American politics save through the news and mainly if they have a guy in office to hate and rail against. The majority really don't care about historical relationships. events, political situations, or the like. They don't even begin to comprehend how deeply entrenched we are with certain situations or what other nations are doing or to even care. To them all this started happening when Obama or Trump was president or whoever the last guy they loved or hated was in office trying to skew everything in whatever light suits them.

For those of us that spend time learning and following these events, it's frustrating to discuss American politics with people who derive their opinions based on emotional reasoning with biased stories and reasoning for events that have a long and storied history like our relationship with Iran and the Middle East in general.

[Hawktawk]

And ballistic missiles are raining down on US troops in Iraq. Casualties and damage is being reported . In response the US has dispatched nuclear armed b 52s to Diego Garcia, just outside Iranian estimated missile range. Just last week Trump said if they retaliated for this killing there would be a “disproportionate response “

But hey that HT is just psychotic, paranoid. Guy isn’t starting a war, he’s not crazy HT, it’s you. You’re just a loon blinded by hate . Besides look at my 401 K! Trumps not so bad.

I’ve been bashed for my passionate resistance to trump , my contention he’s not well mentally, unfit for office , hopelessly corrupt .

I rest my case .

I’m owed crow I’ll never get because forums are like a microcosm of life and especially politics these days , nobody will ever admit the other guy might be right . I don’t care . I’ve never put anyone on this forum on ignore or whatever never even looked into it. Not the worst troll , not the most arrogant abusive posters . I’m sad to see so many who have gone over the years for whatever reason . Hated to see roach bail, really smart guy. His fights with Anthony didn’t bother me but it’s not my call. I don’t know what happened to Burrt. I hope he’s ok cause I don’t see him on either side anymore unless I’m blocked. In spite of our harsh fights which did go over the top both directions I’m really impressed by his intellect in both forums .I see ID On the Hawks side but I don’t blame him for staying out of the octagon. Pretty hard to defend Trumps actions any more. Anyway if you think I’m hard to take imagine George and Kellyanne Conway sitting at the dinner table . If you haven’t read George Conways editorials google it if you think I’ve TDS. I’d say it takes balls to be willing to anger your wife for your moral beliefs .

[RiverDog]

The Iranians have fired "at least a dozen" ballistic missiles at two American bases in Iraq. No casualties have been reported, at least not yet. I have heard reports that some missiles were intercepted while several missed their targets. They are still assessing the attack. Trump and VP Pence have notified Congressional leaders of the attack...by phone, not Twitter.

It seems that Trump has walked back on his threat to attack cultural sites in Iran but only after multiple people within his own administration told him that doing so would be a war crime.

Once again, it's proof how Trump does not prepare for anything he says or does, that he just wings it, and makes decisions by the seat of his pants. Fortunately we have others both within the Administration and in the military that have better judgment than does the POTUS.

[I-5]

Once again, it's proof how Trump does not prepare for anything he says or does, that he just wings it, and makes decisions by the seat of his pants. Fortunately we have others both within the Administration and in the military that have better judgment than does the POTUS.

Yes, but what's the point if none of those people are decision-makers? Pompeo, Bolton, and Sec of Defense Esper tried talk Trump out of witholding funds from Ukraine....

[RiverDog]

Once again, it's proof how Trump does not prepare for anything he says or does, that he just wings it, and makes decisions by the seat of his pants. Fortunately we have others both within the Administration and in the military that have better judgment than does the POTUS.

Yes, but what's the point if none of those people are decision-makers? Pompeo, Bolton, and Sec of Defense Esper tried talk Trump out of witholding funds from Ukraine....

The point is that attacking cultural sites is a very clear violation of international law and subordinates obeying such an order could be put on trial for a war crime because they know better. Withholding funds from Ukraine isn't even in the same league and it's unclear to me why you're trying to link the two.