Tampa

[RiverDog]

He's been waiting for ever to say that. Lol sure let's trade him, and HOPE we can draft a decent QB, HOPE we can get another HOF defense, HOPE we can find a other RB since Carson will be gone. HOPE the other players will not want out, HOPE other players will want to come here after showing we dont plan on winning anytime soon. Lots of Hope's. Lots of 4 or less wins in the future of this suggestion.

Of course thankfully smarter heads prevail so they will do what they should do, and build around Wilson and build up the defense.

I mean your really suggesting its Wilson's fault our defense sucks, lol yup he the reason we have. Not drafted an impact defensive player in years or for that matter signed one despite having the money. Sorry I will say it, this is the stupidest thing I have heard.

I have not been waiting to say lets trade RW Anthony. I have been drug there kicking and screaming. I love RW, who doesn't, but how with his and BW's salary, are we ever going to enough around them to get over the hump. Maybe we get lucky, and it happens. I really hope I am out to lunch.

To River: I am not hand wringing! is making the playoffs but not being a Championship contender really that bad, or is it really that good? All I am saying is its the new Hawk Fan reality. I am just asking the question. No doubt in the old days I was the hand wringer from hell!! Trust me IF the Ducks won a title, Trump is beaten, and Hawks just get back to the SB I could die in eternal bliss!!

Call it what you want, but the impression you were giving me is what I could call hand wringing. It's not a slam, to the contrary, I've been accused of harboring the same type of attitude so I'll admit that it's somewhat a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I always like to wait at least until the 5th or 6th week of the season before I make a judgement on what kind of a team we are. I've been waiting for this defense to gel and it hasn't happened, and we haven't exactly been working our way through the NFL's version of Murderer's Row. IMO given the type of offense we have, we're not a legitimate SB contender W/O a top 10 defense, and I don't see it yet. The rest of the league has also played their first 8 or 9 games, too, and a picture of our remaining schedule is starting to take shape, and when combined with the state of our defense and the difficulty of our remaining schedule, I'm starting to get filled with pessimism despite our very competitive 7-2 record.

That doesn't mean that either of us are any less of a Seahawk fan than the Pollyanna wing. My tendency is to intentionally lower my expectations as it's more enjoyable for me to have the team surprise me than it is for me to harbor false hopes and experience an even greater disappointment if they fail. In essence, I'm standing near a window on the 2nd floor vs. the 10th floor. Either way, I'll jump out the window if we lose, but it's going to hurt less if I'm closer to the ground.

[NorthHawk]

It's funny that a few years ago we were lamenting the lack of Offensive productivity and how we
were wasting a once in a lifetime Defense. Now the tables have turned. The Offense isn't as
good as those Defenses were, but they can be pretty good nonetheless.

Now the FO has to turn back to getting the Defense in order and I think it's only a matter of a
couple of impactful players that can bring pressure on the QB. They will be available in the
off season, and we will have the money, so it depends on whether the available players fit
the scheme we play on Defense and whether they want to come here or are available when
we draft.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree ASF, this is the new normal, with his giant contract. I would rather ship off RW and hope for the best with the new batch of qB's coming out every year. Its better than riding this train to being a B or B+ team every year.

You can build a defense with a high QB contract. We're in the perfect situation to sustain a high paid QB. We have a strong defensive coach who now has a QB. Main thing I'm seeing is Pete and John have moved away from what built that original defense: strong drafting and finding cheap free agent gems that want to work. They been trading too many high picks for players we don't keep like Graham, Harvin, and Sheldon Richardson. They need to move away from that trading high picks for talent trash. I don't mind them taking cheap shots on good possible talent as that is how we landed Clemons and Marshawn. But these high picks for talent that doesn't work out hurts our ability to build through the draft.

I fully believe if Pete and John recommit to their original strategy of tirelessly sifting for talent in the draft and free agency, they can build another elite defense. Pete and John (not sure which one) need to stop overpaying for shiny, overvalued baubles and go back to digging in the coal piles for diamonds.

[Uppercut]

SF has a high paid QB and a great D

It can be done with a good coordinator

[mykc14]

SF has a high paid QB and a great D

It can be done with a good coordinator

Actually his cap hit is less than 20 mil... He had a 37 mil cap hit last year but SF had like 100 mil in cap space. They structured his contract in a way that wouldn’t screw them over in the long run. They were able to do that because they Didn’t try to contend for a few years so they didn’t spend, giving them a ton of cap space last year.

[Anthony]

First we have 12 mil in cap space right now. Next year we will have 72 mil the 8th most. Wilson is not costing us anything in terms of our ability to get players. Ship him off and then you will see it impact our ability to get players. No one will want to come to a team that jettisons its best player, a QB no less, a guy who has done everything right, for draft picks. The message is we don't want to win now, and any time soon. Only way you get people to come is over paying, and then we have a bigger problem. The whole idea was ludicrous.

[NorthHawk]

it’s just plain stupid to get rid of a starting Pro Bowl and
possible MVP QB any time. It’s too hard to get a good starting QB
let alone a perennial Pro Bowl QB.

Some of the problems with finding Defensive players like we did in the
early years of this regime stems from other teams now looking for the
same type of players that we are like DB’s with length over speed. As
Pete’s Defenses dominated for years, others copied or were influenced
by that success and the pool of Pete’s type of players is impacted.
So now it’s harder to get those special players than in 2010 - 2013.

Lightning can strike again, but it’s going to be harder to do.

[RiverDog]

Let’s see, in the last 3 years the Hawks have spent 2 high picks to assist the pass rush. One is totally out of the league and the other is a non factor this year. Sure Collier missed training camp, but since he has come back he hasn’t shown any ability to get on the field and contribute anything meaningful. Little early to label him a bust, but he is headed that way. Russell’s contract hurts the ability to stockpile quality depth, but it is not the reason defense sucks. The reason the defense sucks as I see it is (1) poor drafting In the early rounds for pass rush help (2) a stale defensive scheme and lack of vision in scheming to produce a pass rush. When was the last time the Hawks blitzed a corner or safety. It can be risky, but obviously whats happening now ain’t gettin it done. Sometimes the straight up talent to dominate the LOS and create a pass rush isn’t there. Sometimes the coaches need to figure another way to get it done.

Pope out

Yes, that's been a big reason for the situation we find ourselves in now. We burned a 2nd round draft pick on McDougall, a player that never so much as practiced with us, and so far, Collier has not been a factor in his rookie season. Some if not most of it is a case of getting snake bitten by injuries, but whatever the reason, they aren't on the field producing.

Agreed about Russell's contract. It's not the reason the defense sucks. The only defensive player we've lost due to money was Clark, and no one in their right mind would have advocated that we should have traded Russell, or for that matter Wagner, and kept Clark.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

The McDowell pick was unfortunate. Some of these young kids do that risky stuff, but come away from it with out career changing consequences. McDowell didn't. Not sure how you would spot that.

[RiverDog]

The McDowell pick was unfortunate. Some of these young kids do that risky stuff, but come away from it with out career changing consequences. McDowell didn't. Not sure how you would spot that.

Thanks for the correction on McDowell. I got my "Mic's" mixed up.

We also selected Rasheem Green in the 3rd round in 2018. He hasn't panned out, either, although it's only his second season. Bottom line is that whatever the reason, whether it be injuries or bad judgement, we haven't been procuring the young, cheap talent like we did when Pete built is first version.

[curmudgeon]

Bottom line is that whatever the reason, whether it be injuries or bad judgement, we haven't been procuring the young, cheap talent like we did when Pete built is first version.

Three words why: No Scot McGloughan........

[NorthHawk]

Three words why: No Scot McGloughan........

Yah, whatever his faults, he seems to have a good handle on talent and might be the unsung hero of
that Seahawk era.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

True that, River. Regardless of best intentions or research, they aren't hitting on those guys right now.

I had thought the drawback with Green was that he wasn't being used appropriately in college; playing out of position because of need. Had also thought he had some growing to do physically since he entered the draft his junior year (profile said he lacked "sand" on his frame.. Another regardless, he was a pick they made because you are supposed to have the talent to hold you over while he develops for a couple of years.

[idhawkman]

Main thing I'm seeing is Pete and John have moved away from what built that original defense: strong drafting and finding cheap free agent gems that want to work. They been trading too many high picks for players we don't keep like Graham, Harvin, and Sheldon Richardson. They need to move away from that trading high picks for talent trash. I don't mind them taking cheap shots on good possible talent as that is how we landed Clemons and Marshawn. But these high picks for talent that doesn't work out hurts our ability to build through the draft.

I fully believe if Pete and John recommit to their original strategy of tirelessly sifting for talent in the draft and free agency, they can build another elite defense. Pete and John (not sure which one) need to stop overpaying for shiny, overvalued baubles and go back to digging in the coal piles for diamonds.

I think the misses on the high talent is due to the schemes we employ. Our system is not meant to build a scheme around the talents of an individual or two. Our scheme is our scheme and you do your job in that scheme no matter if it fits your particular strengths or not. So "special" talents are schemed out of our players when we bring them in here. We just need to acknowledge that and not go for the special talent that doesn't fit in our scheme.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think the misses on the high talent is due to the schemes we employ. Our system is not meant to build a scheme around the talents of an individual or two. Our scheme is our scheme and you do your job in that scheme no matter if it fits your particular strengths or not. So "special" talents are schemed out of our players when we bring them in here. We just need to acknowledge that and not go for the special talent that doesn't fit in our scheme.

Graham for sure did not fit our scheme well. Zach Miller was the perfect fit for our scheme. Wish we could find another Miller. That TE that does everything well, even if not the best.

[Hawktawk]

Graham for sure did not fit our scheme well. Zach Miller was the perfect fit for our scheme. Wish we could find another Miller. That TE that does everything well, even if not the best.

That guy was named Dissley . We still hung up 40, the Hollister kid performed. It seems like some want to apologize for being 7-2. 7-2 baby bring on Frisco

[RiverDog]

I think the misses on the high talent is due to the schemes we employ. Our system is not meant to build a scheme around the talents of an individual or two. Our scheme is our scheme and you do your job in that scheme no matter if it fits your particular strengths or not. So "special" talents are schemed out of our players when we bring them in here. We just need to acknowledge that and not go for the special talent that doesn't fit in our scheme.

Graham for sure did not fit our scheme well. Zach Miller was the perfect fit for our scheme. Wish we could find another Miller. That TE that does everything well, even if not the best.

I didn't like that trade at all. We not only gave up a first round pick, we gave up a Pro Bowl center without having a viable plan to fill that position. And as you pointed out, Graham was strictly a receiving tight end and although he improved from when he arrived, was a horrible blocker in a run first offensive scheme.

Agreed about Zach Miller. I'd vote him on my all time Seahawks team even though he was injured a lot. He blocked as well if not better than our offensive linemen yet made some spectacular, wide receiver-type catches and had a good sense of where Russell was going with his scrambling.

And I agree with Hawktalk about Will Dissley. He reminds me a lot of Miller. Too bad he can't stay on the field.

[c_hawkbob]

Y'all are up in the night on Graham. Despite the fact the we never properly utilized his talent (Pete knew he was a pass catching TE when we got him and Bevel just never properly integrated him into the playbook) he was the most prolific TE the Seahawks ever had. If we'd have adjusted our offensive scheme a touch he'd have been historic.

[RiverDog]

Y'all are up in the night on Graham. Despite the fact the we never properly utilized his talent (Pete knew he was a pass catching TE when we got him and Bevel just never properly integrated him into the playbook) he was the most prolific TE the Seahawks ever had. If we'd have adjusted our offensive scheme a touch he'd have been historic.

The entire team is built on Pete's philosophy of a run first, ball control offense that compliments a strong defense. IMO it would have entailed a little more than a tweak here or there to incorporate Graham into Pete's offense if the object was to play him as a 3 down, in line tight end.

It would have been easier to convert Graham to a wide receiver than it would have been to try to fit a square peg into a round hole like we tried to do with him. And that doesn't even speak to the void the trade left at the center position or the #1 draft pick we had to surrender.

[NorthHawk]

And that's why Gordon is a better fit than Graham. Pete's Offense is built on a strong run game and explosive downfield
plays. Gordon is an explosive WR and fits the scheme.

[idhawkman]

That guy was named Dissley . We still hung up 40, the Hollister kid performed. It seems like some want to apologize for being 7-2. 7-2 baby bring on Frisco

You know, I thought the exact same thing about Dissly but maybe RW is just more comfortable throwing to a TE again. I don't think he was comfortable doing that since Miller moved on. Of course, that could be scheme and Shotty getting RW comfortable with those throws again. I love watching the seam routes by TEs going for 15+ at a whack.

[idhawkman]

Y'all are up in the night on Graham. Despite the fact the we never properly utilized his talent (Pete knew he was a pass catching TE when we got him and Bevel just never properly integrated him into the playbook) he was the most prolific TE the Seahawks ever had. If we'd have adjusted our offensive scheme a touch he'd have been historic.

The entire team is built on Pete's philosophy of a run first, ball control offense that compliments a strong defense. IMO it would have entailed a little more than a tweak here or there to incorporate Graham into Pete's offense if the object was to play him as a 3 down, in line tight end.

It would have been easier to convert Graham to a wide receiver than it would have been to try to fit a square peg into a round hole like we tried to do with him. And that doesn't even speak to the void the trade left at the center position or the #1 draft pick we had to surrender.

I'm with Cbob on this. "IF" Pete's scheme is what killed Graham here then why do we have other TEs being highly explosive in a "Pete" offense both now and with Zach when he was here? I think Bevel just never chose to call plays to the TEs and the only way Luke and Graham, etc ever got a play is off of a broken play that RW improvised on.

[RiverDog]

I'm with Cbob on this. "IF" Pete's scheme is what killed Graham here then why do we have other TEs being highly explosive in a "Pete" offense both now and with Zach when he was here? I think Bevel just never chose to call plays to the TEs and the only way Luke and Graham, etc ever got a play is off of a broken play that RW improvised on.

We're talking about two different things. You're talking about his ability as a receiver, to which I largely agree with, and I'm talking about his overall ability as a blocker as well as a receiver. It is no coincidence that our running game sucked when Graham was here (#18 and #23 in 2016 and 2017) and improved dramatically after we moved on from him (#1 in 2018). He was not suited to be an in line, 3 down tight end in our offense. He was a finesse player that should have been limited to passing situations, but because we spent so much for him, they tried to force him to do things that wasn't part of his game and in doing so, hurt the team's chances of success.

Zach's problem was that he couldn't stay on the field. If he had, he might have put up some pretty decent receiving numbers as he did when he was with Oakland. But there's no doubt that he was leaps and bounds a better blocker than Graham.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Miller played all but 3 games in his first three seasons with Seattle. His numbers were always low because he was not a major part of the passing attack like he was in Oakland (Tarvaris Jackson as the starting QB his first season also didn't help). He was a blocker first, and, as stated, excellent at it. He averaged about 50 targets each season until he injured is ankle in Week 3 of his fourth season with the Seahawks. That ended up shutting him down for good, unfortunately for him.

As y'all know, Pete's offense was all about running the ball well and making big plays in the passing game. Miller was never going to be a big play guy. He took what he could get as a reliable check down and redzone threat, and, for some reason, was the one guy Atlanta couldn't/wouldn't cover in that divisional round playoff game where he dominated.

So,:

1. Graham didn't fit the offense all that well, but showed on multiple occasions how dangerous a receiving threat he was. Bevel didn't do what Sean Peyton did to fully capitalize on his talent, but that's also not how Pete likes to operate anyway. Got more opportunities than any other tight end under Bevel, but still under utilized as a receiver.
2. Miller was also a product of Bevel and Pete not running an offense conducive to TE production. I believe he was quite capable as both a blocker and a receiver, but his blocking skills were valued and utilized more.
3. As we saw with Dissly (wish he was still in the line up this season!), it looks like Schotty was getting in the groove of taking advantage of Dissly's full skill set. Quite possible that a Graham or Miller would see better production with an OC that integrates them properly as a receiver, like you said cbob. Wouldn't hurt for them to both have a well-seasoned, MVP-caliber Russel Wilson throwing to them either.

Edit: Also, I think even Pete realizes he can, should, and has adjusted his philosophy a bit to take advantage of Wilson level of play at this stage in his career. Early on, there were limitations to what Wilson could do throwing the ball; not the case anymore. Not by a mile.

[Aseahawkfan]

Y'all are up in the night on Graham. Despite the fact the we never properly utilized his talent (Pete knew he was a pass catching TE when we got him and Bevel just never properly integrated him into the playbook) he was the most prolific TE the Seahawks ever had. If we'd have adjusted our offensive scheme a touch he'd have been historic.

Because our scheme was run first and control the clock. That is exactly what we're talking about. I'm not down on Graham. He was an amazing talent that did not fit our scheme. Zach Miller fit our scheme better. Pete was never going to use Graham right because of his focus on the run. Same reason all our receivers seemed to under perform even while exhibiting amazing talent like Golden Tate or Doug. We like to run. That's what Pete likes. Given Pete's scheme, better to have a Zach Miller than a Jimmy Graham. That guy that is good at everything including blocking, while Graham was amazing at receiving but a soso blocker at best.

When you spend a 1st round pick on a guy you don't plan to keep who isn't ideal for your scheme, that doesn't seem particularly smart. I would have rather kept some of these picks and went after talent in the draft. Though I never really complain too much as I don't have much power to affect team decisions. If I did, I wouldn't have traded for many of these guys they traded for like Harvin or Graham.

[idhawkman]

We're talking about two different things. You're talking about his ability as a receiver, to which I largely agree with, and I'm talking about his overall ability as a blocker as well as a receiver. It is no coincidence that our running game sucked when Graham was here (#18 and #23 in 2016 and 2017) and improved dramatically after we moved on from him (#1 in 2018). He was not suited to be an in line, 3 down tight end in our offense. He was a finesse player that should have been limited to passing situations, but because we spent so much for him, they tried to force him to do things that wasn't part of his game and in doing so, hurt the team's chances of success.

Zach's problem was that he couldn't stay on the field. If he had, he might have put up some pretty decent receiving numbers as he did when he was with Oakland. But there's no doubt that he was leaps and bounds a better blocker than Graham.

Yeah, I can't lay that on the TE blocking when the Oline was a disaster. Even Zach Miller wouldn't have been able to help our running game with the oline we had and the carousel of RBs we tried in the interim between Beast and Carson. I think you would agree to some degree on that. (Remind me again what year we brought in Brown and Flukker and Carson - was it like 2018? I think that is the bigger impact to the run game than letting JG move on.

(Yes, I know Brown came in half way through 2017 but how effective could he be on his own?)

[RiverDog]

Yeah, I can't lay that on the TE blocking when the Oline was a disaster. Even Zach Miller wouldn't have been able to help our running game with the oline we had and the carousel of RBs we tried in the interim between Beast and Carson. I think you would agree to some degree on that. (Remind me again what year we brought in Brown and Flukker and Carson - was it like 2018? I think that is the bigger impact to the run game than letting JG move on.

(Yes, I know Brown came in half way through 2017 but how effective could he be on his own?)

Of course, we can't lay the entire blame for our running woes on one player, and you're right, the OL was a mess and one player like Zach, or for that matter any one of the aforementioned names you brought up, wouldn't have been the total solution. But Graham was a component of it, and some accountability is entirely fitting. He was also a very poor pass blocker, and not much help for our tackles when called upon to stay in and block. On the other hand, there were times that I swore that Zach was a better pass blocker than either of our tackles.

The point is that while Graham was an above average receiver, he was a below average blocker and as such, was a bad fit for our run first offense.

[jshawaii22]

and he's having the same issues in GB. Doesn't fit in.

[RiverDog]

and he's having the same issues in GB. Doesn't fit in.

Yup. After what was termed a "disappointing season" in 2018, Graham isn't even a starter anymore, replaced by 35 year old Marcedes Lewis.

Meanwhile, Marcedes Lewis has nine catches on 12 targets (75 percent) for 119 yards (13.2 yards per catch). He’s averaging 9.9 yards per target with three catches over 20 yards, and he’s been the far better blocker. It’s clear who has been the best tight end on the Packers’ roster through six games.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/1 ... t-in-2019/

[idhawkman]

Of course, we can't lay the entire blame for our running woes on one player, and you're right, the OL was a mess and one player like Zach, or for that matter any one of the aforementioned names you brought up, wouldn't have been the total solution. But Graham was a component of it, and some accountability is entirely fitting. He was also a very poor pass blocker, and not much help for our tackles when called upon to stay in and block. On the other hand, there were times that I swore that Zach was a better pass blocker than either of our tackles.

The point is that while Graham was an above average receiver, he was a below average blocker and as such, was a bad fit for our run first offense.

I won't argue any of what you said above. I would offer though that the intent of bringing him in was to have a legitimate pass threat to loosen up some of the box stacking that occurred and not to have him line up inside and bring another defender in to the box. "IF" he was used correctly, he would have been as much a threat as anyone outside making teams have to "occasionally" double team him which then loosen up the box for runs.

He was more misused IMO than a bad fit.

[RiverDog]

I won't argue any of what you said above. I would offer though that the intent of bringing him in was to have a legitimate pass threat to loosen up some of the box stacking that occurred and not to have him line up inside and bring another defender in to the box. "IF" he was used correctly, he would have been as much a threat as anyone outside making teams have to "occasionally" double team him which then loosen up the box for runs.

He was more misused IMO than a bad fit.

If that's the case, he was an awfully expensive decoy.

Using him "correctly" would have meant changing our offensive scheme, something we obviously weren't willing to do. Therefore, he was a bad fit.

We can argue about whether it was a case of being misused or a bad fit, but it's undeniable that the experiment was, for the most part, a failure.

[idhawkman]

If that's the case, he was an awfully expensive decoy.

Using him "correctly" would have meant changing our offensive scheme, something we obviously weren't willing to do. Therefore, he was a bad fit.

We can argue about whether it was a case of being misused or a bad fit, but it's undeniable that the experiment was, for the most part, a failure.

Not a decoy at all. Either you double him or he burns you. That's not a decoy that is a weapon!

What we don't know is whether it was Bevel or Carroll that was "Unwilling" to implement him (or maybe it was RW just choosing not to target him). I think we would both agree that it isn't in RWs nature and desire to win that it isn't him. I think we can agree that Carroll with Shotty is using the TE as a threat now so the only thing left is Bevel's system which we both may agree was never really embraced by us (fans) or even players (Beast constantly flipping off Bevel from the field) and lets not forget his biggest boob move in 49.

[NorthHawk]

He was a receiver playing TE, not an inline blocking TE.
What they tried to do was turn a diamond into a turd.

[idhawkman]

He was a receiver playing TE, not an inline blocking TE.
What they tried to do was turn a diamond into a turd.

Agreed. and the diamond did what it does - it cut us!