Impeachment?

[Aseahawkfan]

This is a common misconception among never Trumpers. "IF" Trump doesn't win, the party will nominate another person like him next time, too. The party has changed for the better long term. Your parents politics where the Dems make outrageous claims and attacks and the Republicans just sit back and take it are over.

Trump actually is a middle of the road president. The only difference between Trump and other middle of the road presidents is his tweeting and combative nature. What follks like Hawktawk don't seem to get is that for all the BS talk by the press, Trump is actually running a very middle ground, centrist presidency. It's the open dirty secret of Trump is that he far more of a centrist than anyone wants to admit. They act like he's doing all this crazy stuff, but he's not. He just talks crazy.

Otherwise he's running a middle of the road presidency with a good economy. Even his immigration levels are generally no worse than previous administrations. The press is focusing on the immigration to attack him, when the same focus would have shown exactly the same problems at the border under Obama and the like. Trump did not change the facilities at the border or any of the laws. ICE was enforcing immigration law under Obama.

This is all just more media driven BS that Trump is some kind of extremist helped by his bombastic speech and twittering. Overall the country is no worse for Trump being president. He's handling foreign policy mostly fine. The economy is humming. Americans are living well. It's the ratings driven lunatic media driving this illusion of an America with all these problems that aren't just Trump tweeted this rotten, offensive thing and Omar said this really stupid thing. It's mostly much ado about nothing. That's the biggest part people hate about Trump.

The entire reason the Dems are trying to impeach him and work the racism/immigration angle is because that is all they have to work with because Trump is so middle of the road populist with most of his economic and foreign policy.

As far as future presidents, I'd bet you money right now any future president is going to go back to business as usual no matter which party. Trump is a one off. Any future candidates will go back to PC speech as politicians are trained to do. Trump's presidency will be a very unique situation where a businessman and reality TV star with a bombastic, loud style won and tweeted like a teenage girl. I'd be surprised if you ever saw another president like Trump in your lifetime. Repubs and Dems will breathe a sigh of relief and go back to their usual BS after Trump is out. Maybe Hawktawk will be able to go back to hating the Dems when that happens.

[Hawktawk]

There’s not much I “don’t get” about trump asea. It’s the 45% who support him who “don’t get it” also the too cool for school detractors who wring their hands and say oh well wait till 2020 . It is what it is.

Trump is centrist / bipolar middle of the road or whatever you want to call it for sure. His tax cuts for the rich are a republican thing as is his deregulation of any environmental protections etc. His monetary policies of bullying his fed chair into keeping rates low has given a boost to the longest postwar economic expansion ever , now into its 10th year. It has also helped the stock market become dangerously overvalued as people have nowhere else to grow their money . Tariffs on the other hand are the least republican thing ever. A trillion in debt annually in the face of booming economic times is also not republican , helps prop up an economy long overdue for a recession through government spending and is setting us up for a crash unlike anything I’ve likely seen in my lifetime . His draconian policies towards brown skinned people are just racist and he has utterly lost control of what was a 30 year low in border crossings . His lawlessness and colluding with Russia has never been seen on this scale in either party. As for hating democrats I never stopped. But I’ll take any democrat in 2020 over the worst most unfit person ever to disgrace the highest office on the planet . Oh good to see you’re coming around d on the crazy semi senile front though. Welcome aboard. I’ve been here since day one .

[RiverDog]

A 3rd party isn't going to happen anytime soon as the Constitution favors the current two party system, so we're pretty much stuck with this dumpster fire. If Trump loses in 2020, we'll see what the real Republican party is like. Right now, he has them deathly afraid of his constituency so not many will speak out against him publicly even though privately they have expressed a lot of concern. If they could ever give the party an enema and rid themselves of that POS, they might be able to re-define themselves. Problem is that too many young people see the R's as the home of white supremacists. "Make America Great Again" essentially means "Make America White Again".

This is a common misconception among never Trumpers. "IF" Trump doesn't win, the party will nominate another person like him next time, too. The party has changed for the better long term. Your parents politics where the Dems make outrageous claims and attacks and the Republicans just sit back and take it are over.

I'm not talking about Trump's politics. I'm talking about Trump's personality, his racism, his dishonesty, his basic intelligence, and leadership traits. I have some differences with him on his policies, particularly on immigration, but by and large, I'm good with it.

The American public doesn't read the fine print. What they know about him are in his tweets and his public appearances. That's what people remember the most about him, not the fact that he cut taxes or increased defense spending. There are a lot of younger people that are disturbed by his racism and are associating that with the Republican party. They're in for a major rebuilding effort once they purge that POS. Hopefully he hasn't destroyed it to the point to where the R's lose both the Presidency and the Senate/House in 2020 as I fear a united government.

[RiverDog]

Even his immigration levels are generally no worse than previous administrations. The press is focusing on the immigration to attack him, when the same focus would have shown exactly the same problems at the border under Obama and the like. Trump did not change the facilities at the border or any of the laws. ICE was enforcing immigration law under Obama.

The press is focusing on the immigration to attack him? Trump is the one making an issue out of it. He needs it for political capital. Otherwise, he wouldn't announce to the world that he's going on a campaign to deport illegal aliens and give them a chance to elude ICE. If he was sincerely worried about illegals, he wouldn't have said a word publicly, but once he did, he just made ICE's job that much harder. The way Trump sees it, the more he's attacked by the press over immigration, the more it will help him, and the press laps it up like a hungry kitten laps up a saucer of milk. Same goes for his border wall. He needs the symbolism it provides his base more than he needs the wall itself.

[idhawkman]

I'm not talking about Trump's politics. I'm talking about Trump's personality, his racism, his dishonesty, his basic intelligence, and leadership traits. I have some differences with him on his policies, particularly on immigration, but by and large, I'm good with it.

I always get a kick out of people like you who question other people's intelligence when their track record is so strong. Quite amusing actually. I can understand your not liking his personality and not liking his leadership traits but to call him a racist based on what I've seen you post, I don't think you understand the word well enough to use it.

The American public doesn't read the fine print. What they know about him are in his tweets and his public appearances. That's what people remember the most about him, not the fact that he cut taxes or increased defense spending. There are a lot of younger people that are disturbed by his racism and are associating that with the Republican party. They're in for a major rebuilding effort once they purge that POS. Hopefully he hasn't destroyed it to the point to where the R's lose both the Presidency and the Senate/House in 2020 as I fear a united government.

Major rebuilding huh? I guess they'll have to really work at losing 50% of the support from the black community that Trump has picked up since he started running. (was at 11% for Romney who got the most of any republican in history vs. Trumps support of over 22% now.)

[idhawkman]

The press is focusing on the immigration to attack him? Trump is the one making an issue out of it. He needs it for political capital. Otherwise, he wouldn't announce to the world that he's going on a campaign to deport illegal aliens and give them a chance to elude ICE. If he was sincerely worried about illegals, he wouldn't have said a word publicly, but once he did, he just made ICE's job that much harder. The way Trump sees it, the more he's attacked by the press over immigration, the more it will help him, and the press laps it up like a hungry kitten laps up a saucer of milk. Same goes for his border wall. He needs the symbolism it provides his base more than he needs the wall itself.

This is another example of Trump playing Chess and you're wanting to evaluate it as checkers. The long term strategy of announcing it now and then not actually doing it give him cover in 6 weeks or 6 months or whenever he does spring the trap. He can say, "I told you months ago we were going to do it." The illegals will eventually fall back into their ruts of daily activities and be there for the picking when they want to spring into action.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump playing chess? Now he's insulting American cities because he's angry at some political opponent. Trump could have re-election on lock, but he just can't stop tweeting and lashing out like a crazy, angry man. If he wins re-election, it will be because of how utterly pathetic and dumb the Democrats are. A Trump re-election will show the Democrats to be so incredibly weak and pathetic, I have no idea where you go from there. If you can't find someone to beat Crazy Uncle Trump, your candidates are awful.

[Hawktawk]

I pretty much agree here ASEA. Trump would be in cruise control headed for a blowout win in Nov 20 if he were an intelligent measured communicator able to focus on his administrations achievements . Bill Clinton was an excellent example of that, compartmentalizing to govern in a bipartisan fashion despite scandals and investigations .


Instead Trump is as you have said a crazy acting semi senile demagogue in severe intellectual decline . He’s more mean spirited and hate filled by the day and his racist hateful tweetstorms are becoming epic. Spending 2 days attacking a black congressman serving a 52% black district in between continuing to obsess over an investigation he says clears him is a classic symptom of a man utterly out if his mind.
Couldn’t agree more about the democrats . If they can’t beat this historically unpopular president they are weak beyond belief or Putin has learned how to actually change votes which I wouldn’t rule out frankly.

[Aseahawkfan]

Seriously, I can't repeat it enough. If the Dems lose to Trump, they have fallen to a low I can't even begin to comprehend. Trump is literally saying whatever he wants like he wants to lose and if the Dems can't beat a guy that literally is trying to lose, then where do you go from there? I don't know. I don't even know. This is an unusual situation. We've never had a president this reckless with his comments. This is unprecedented.

[I-5]

Is it reckless, or does he know the crazier he talks, the more his base will eat it up? To me, it's not Trump that is so scary, it's the outright racism and xenophobia he's inflamed in his base that is showing itself in plain daylight.

[I-5]

What kind of a 'leader' insults an American city, full of young Americans who are supposed to look up to him? Just because he watched a Fox segment attacking a democratic congressman? How irresponsible can he be?

[idhawkman]

Is it reckless, or does he know the crazier he talks, the more his base will eat it up? To me, it's not Trump that is so scary, it's the outright racism and xenophobia he's inflamed in his base that is showing itself in plain daylight.

...aaaaand there it is. the race card. What exactly, (Post it here) did he say that is racist? I bet you can't post it because nothing of what he said about Baltimore is racist - its the truth. You may want to look at what the people of Baltimore are saying, Obama, Bernie, the Mayor of Baltimore and others about the same situation. Calling out the failed policies of congressmen and democrats who have been in power for decades is not racist. I could make an argument that to ignore the plight of 52% of a population could be racist though.

[I-5]

If you read my comment again, I connected the word with his base, ie the chants from the rally. Yes, he incites and encourages that.

[I-5]

ID, why would Trump (disengenuosly of course) try to distance himself from the chants and say he doesn't like it (even though he clearly stoked it and waited for the chants to rise)? We all know he loved the chants, and even remarked that it was quite something before trying to move away from it.

[idhawkman]

If you read my comment again, I connected the word with his base, ie the chants from the rally. Yes, he incites and encourages that.

Look at this video and tell me why Trump is calling out Cummings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS92jiD7BrA

As Greg Gutfeld says:

"Trump's about to execute a white supremacist, while trying to free a black rapper from jail, as he pushes prison reform that directly benefits families of black men, while calling out a city where minorities are victims of crime and blight. If Trump's a racist, he sucks at it."

Now a bigger question, have you been to Baltimore? Here's a few stats for you:

Baltimore has the highest murder rate in the country and has over 20% of its people in poverty. Trump's administration has sent over $16B of aid to Cumming's district alone, more than any other administration in history. "IF" Trump is a racists, why would he send that much money there? What are the politicians in Baltimore doing with the money they are getting? Is it right for Trump to bring the spotlight onto a city that has had the last 3 mayors and 4 cheifs of police resign from corruption in the last 3 years? I think he owes it to the residents of Baltimore to call that out. I think it is also note worthy to mention that there hasn't been a single republican on the Baltimore city board of directors since the '30s. So don't blame the republicans for this one.

If you have the stomach for it, here's some videos of what those residents are subjected to: While watching them, think about Cumming's berating of the DHS secretary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaPYdVZzyk

If you watch that video all the way through, notice who is asking for the help. This is the exact story Trump was tweeting about. After watching this, ask yourself if you would also want to raise the awareness of the situation knowing that more money has been funneled to help those people but it isn't making it to those people. Maybe you would rather Trump say nothing and continue to have these helpless people continue to live in squalor. That would be more racists than anything Trump tweeted in my opinion.

[Aseahawkfan]

Look at this video and tell me why Trump is calling out Cummings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS92jiD7BrA

As Greg Gutfeld says:

Now a bigger question, have you been to Baltimore? Here's a few stats for you:

Baltimore has the highest murder rate in the country and has over 20% of its people in poverty. Trump's administration has sent over $16B of aid to Cumming's district alone, more than any other administration in history. "IF" Trump is a racists, why would he send that much money there? What are the politicians in Baltimore doing with the money they are getting? Is it right for Trump to bring the spotlight onto a city that has had the last 3 mayors and 4 cheifs of police resign from corruption in the last 3 years? I think he owes it to the residents of Baltimore to call that out. I think it is also note worthy to mention that there hasn't been a single republican on the Baltimore city board of directors since the '30s. So don't blame the republicans for this one.

If you have the stomach for it, here's some videos of what those residents are subjected to: While watching them, think about Cumming's berating of the DHS secretary. He's a jackass that can't help spouting his mouth off. Only reason the Dems might lose is how pathetic their polices are. Republicans as a party right now are more centrist than the Democrats far left BS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaPYdVZzyk

If you watch that video all the way through, notice who is asking for the help. This is the exact story Trump was tweeting about. After watching this, ask yourself if you would also want to raise the awareness of the situation knowing that more money has been funneled to help those people but it isn't making it to those people. Maybe you would rather Trump say nothing and continue to have these helpless people continue to live in squalor. That would be more racists than anything Trump tweeted in my opinion.

Then why the hell doesn't he call it out just like you did? Instead he tweets out it's a rat infested blah blah blah, where if he had constructed an argument like you just did he would be heading towards a Reagan-like re-election.

[I-5]

ID, I haven't met you in person, but I have every reason to think you are a fine, decent person based on the logical arguments you make, even if I disagree with a lot of it. Do you think it's acceptable for the leader of the country to paint an entire city the way he described Baltimore? Since he is a stable genius, he probably has the gift of language to legitimately point out the struggling parts of EVERY city in a way that inspires and leads. Like I said, Baltimore is full of young people that need a leader. Do you think he talks like a leader? I don't think you do, and don't understand why you think it's worth defending something that he himself Is trying to distance himself from.

I know you'd much rather focus on the actual issues, but Trump by his trashy rhetoric makes the conversation impossible. I expect more from a leader. His behaviour is transparently narcissist, not even close to the idea of how I think a leader behaves and speaks.

[RiverDog]

I know you'd much rather focus on the actual issues, but Trump by his trashy rhetoric makes the conversation impossible. I expect more from a leader. His behaviour is transparently narcissist, not even close to the idea of how I think a leader behaves and speaks.

That sums up my main beef about Trump's leadership style. His Howard Stern/Jerry Springer leadership attributes makes having a rational conversation about problems and possible solutions impossible. It's not much different than my objection to the anthem-kneeling issue. If you want to have a conversation with someone, particularly with those that are not directly responsible for the problem, you don't start it off by slapping them in the face.

[idhawkman]

Then why the hell doesn't he call it out just like you did? Instead he tweets out it's a rat infested blah blah blah, where if he had constructed an argument like you just did he would be heading towards a Reagan-like re-election.

The news segment he was calling out was the one I posted which had the same stats and had Cumming's berating the DHS Secretary video just before it.

Maybe he knows that the only way to inflame the left and media is to be edgy like that so it blows up into a big story and then becomes a focus on the problem.

Maybe it is because I didn't limit my reasoning to 140 characters.

I can't really speak to why but what I do know is that those who follow him know exactly what he's talking about and can then make the case for him - just like I did. I wish the media would take a few minutes and evaluate the issue like I did before inflaming the situation into a click bait story. (I wonder if the media will actually start to help Trump win just so they can have another 4 years of click bait like this to keep them afloat.)

[idhawkman]

ID, I haven't met you in person, but I have every reason to think you are a fine, decent person based on the logical arguments you make, even if I disagree with a lot of it. Do you think it's acceptable for the leader of the country to paint an entire city the way he described Baltimore?

Do you mean like this one did? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHOdPEFYUg4

Let me be more specific though without the whataboutmeism involved. YES! I DO! Rather than ignore the issue and let those people continue to live like that I absolutely think he needed to say something. Mentioning it in the normal way would not get the reaction that it has now received. Now the spotlight is focused where it needs to be focused, on the people responsible for spending the money given to the city and where the money has gone. If you think this is over and its all about Trump, I think you are sadly mistaken. Give it a few weeks and if nothing is done, Trump will bring this up in the 2020 election. Pointing out that the worst 5 cities in the nation have been run by democrats for decades and then showing where the money is being spent and pointing that out to those constituents is going to be real hard for the dems to refute.

Since he is a stable genius, he probably has the gift of language to legitimately point out the struggling parts of EVERY city in a way that inspires and leads. Like I said, Baltimore is full of young people that need a leader. Do you think he talks like a leader? I don't think you do, and don't understand why you think it's worth defending something that he himself Is trying to distance himself from.

Actually, I do think he's a leader. There's very little he can do however without the local politicians getting on board. Think about it this way, he's created over 150 opportunity zones for inner cities through his demagogued tax cut when he allowed the repatriation of corporate profits from overseas. You may not have known that though because that's the biggest complaint dems have about the tax cuts being only for the rich. Think about that for a minute. The dems demagogue tax cuts that incentivize companies to invest in urban blight zones.

This may be a new concept to you but I'd ask you to consider that the democrats want people (of all races) to be dependent on the government and not self reliant so that the government (them) can control them by offering or threatening to give or take more programs from them. After 50 years of democrat control in Baltimore, they've accomplished this feat in many ways. 13 of 39 schools in Baltimore can not find a single person of color that is proficient in math or English. Where do you think the kids from those 13 schools can go to find a job and what do you think their chances of winning life's lottery is? Just to exacerbate this issue, what do you think the low skill illegal aliens are doing to those people? What do you think the MS-13 gangs in the schools are doing to those people? (Please do a little research on this subject before you answer because the school officials back in 2017 stated that they welcome the Illegals and MS-13 into their schools and help to make them better). I'm not making this up.

I know you'd much rather focus on the actual issues, but Trump by his trashy rhetoric makes the conversation impossible. I expect more from a leader. His behaviour is transparently narcissist, not even close to the idea of how I think a leader behaves and speaks.

And yet he built and led a corporation worth billions worldwide. Maybe you could ask yourself, am I looking at the wrong type of leadership and maybe I should open my mind to the possibility that he may have a different style than what I'm used to (which we know doesn't work based on results).

Something I'd like you to consider when looking at Trump. There are really very few rules with him and they are crystal clear.

1. He doesn't care how much activity you do, he only cares about the results you achieve. This country has put too much emphasis on activity (everyone gets a trophy, do you time and get paid without regards to how well you did your job, etc) and not enough on results.

2. If you hit him, he's going to hit back and he's not trying to get even, he wants to get ahead. This one is self explanatory.

3. Loyalty to him, the country and yourself is more respected than almost anything else.

[Hawktawk]

It’s not the madness of trump that’s most concerning . It’s how completely deluded guys like Id are to blindly follow him....

[RiverDog]

It’s not the madness of trump that’s most concerning . It’s how completely deluded guys like Id are to blindly follow him....

Agreed. That is the one thing that has been most surprising, indeed shocking, to me is how well Trump resonates with a significant portion of the voting population to the point where they can overlook, rationalize, and in some cases, identify themselves with Trump's hugely flawed human characteristics.

[Aseahawkfan]

Agreed. That is the one thing that has been most surprising, indeed shocking, to me is how well Trump resonates with a significant portion of the voting population to the point where they can overlook, rationalize, and in some cases, identify themselves with Trump's hugely flawed human characteristics.

That part is not hard for me to follow. The left has been attacking relentlessly what a certain segment of this population believes in. In their minds, Trump is fighting for that America while no one else seems to be.

It's why I don't see Idhawkman quite the way you and I5 do. He has nowhere else to turn for the America he believes in other than Trump. An America that he believes in and loves while the left including their corporate backers seem to be willing to tear it all down and the right seems content to let happen to avoid politically correct fueled censure.

The fact the left isn't acknowledging that they are alienating a growing number of "deplorables' that feel the country they love is being destroyed by leftist philosophy whether it's the removal of freedoms to pressure political correctness, attacks on police and military personnel, attacks on their religious beliefs, attacks on their "race", and the general idea that America is a bad country are tired of it. Trump is a result of that pent up dissatisfaction and rage. Apparently that was enough to win. There seem to be a lot of very angry Americans that feel the government is not representing them well and Trump is doing a much better job representing their interests.

I can't list all they believe in one post, but it isn't just race. It's a whole lot of things the left is pushing including corporations also shoving leftist culture down everyone's throat while conservatives have to walk on eggshells hoping not to offend anyone or they'll be fired, ostracized, or generally attacked by some leftists/liberals/progressives. This rage has been building for years.

[I-5]

It’s not the madness of trump that’s most concerning . It’s how completely deluded guys like Id are to blindly follow him...

I wish this wasn't the case, but I completely agree. Trump himself is scary, his followers much scarier. I personally think Trump knows the whole thing is a farce, and he will laugh in our faces one day and mock anyone who actually bought his act.

ASF, I'm interested to hear your theory more. I'd like to see what the leftist agenda looks like...I'm guessing it's about abortion rights, big business and environmental regulations, abolishing ICE, de-criminalizing cannibis, easing refugee policies, taxing higher income earners and corporations (who manage to pay zero), the usual rift between left and right, correct? What about foreign policy? Everything the right hated about Obama talking to our enemies, we are doing now. Does it really matter to them?

[RiverDog]

Agreed. That is the one thing that has been most surprising, indeed shocking, to me is how well Trump resonates with a significant portion of the voting population to the point where they can overlook, rationalize, and in some cases, identify themselves with Trump's hugely flawed human characteristics.

That part is not hard for me to follow. The left has been attacking relentlessly what a certain segment of this population believes in. In their minds, Trump is fighting for that America while no one else seems to be.

It's why I don't see Idhawkman quite the way you and I5 do. He has nowhere else to turn for the America he believes in other than Trump. An America that he believes in and loves while the left including their corporate backers seem to be willing to tear it all down and the right seems content to let happen to avoid politically correct fueled censure.

The fact the left isn't acknowledging that they are alienating a growing number of "deplorables' that feel the country they love is being destroyed by leftist philosophy whether it's the removal of freedoms to pressure political correctness, attacks on police and military personnel, attacks on their religious beliefs, attacks on their "race", and the general idea that America is a bad country are tired of it. Trump is a result of that pent up dissatisfaction and rage. Apparently that was enough to win. There seem to be a lot of very angry Americans that feel the government is not representing them well and Trump is doing a much better job representing their interests.

I can't list all they believe in one post, but it isn't just race. It's a whole lot of things the left is pushing including corporations also shoving leftist culture down everyone's throat while conservatives have to walk on eggshells hoping not to offend anyone or they'll be fired, ostracized, or generally attacked by some leftists/liberals/progressives. This rage has been building for years.

I agree about the left and their attacks against the far right. They've driven them into the opposite corner and away from a position of compromise. AOC is a perfect example of a divisive politician that is causing the right to react by being less willing to compromise. Hillary Clinton added fuel to the fire when she referred to Trump supporters as "deplorables." People voted for DJT for a variety of reasons, and she painted everyone with the same brush stroke. And you're right, it's about more than just race, but that's the part that disturbs me the most. I can set aside some issues, say like gun control or abortion, if I see someone like DJT that I view as a racist in order to distance myself from them because I put a premium on not associating myself with that kind of thinking. It's very disappointing to me to see people that are so comfortable with sharing attributes with the truly evil KKK and Neo Nazi types. I'm afraid of sleeping so close to the dogs that I might some day wake up with fleas, but apparently not as many people share that sentiment as I thought there was.

What amazes me is the number of those really hard core, Trump-can-do-no-wrong supporters that are out there. Prior to 2016, I would have figured them to be 10% tops, but it's much, much higher than that, probably closer to 35 or 40%. Social media has allowed me to see into the minds of many that I've known for decades, including people that I went to high school with and worked for years with, that have bought into Trump's act just as feverishly as Idahawkman has. Some that have expressed their love affair for Trump makes perfect sense to me, but others took me by surprise. I guess I was pretty naïve, or maybe my ego was talking me into thinking that more people thought like me, sort of like the tendency of people to think they're middle of the road or harbor a reasonable POV when in actuality they're on the far end of the spectrum.

I vastly underestimated how deep this divide is, and like I5 says, it's a bit scary.

[idhawkman]

Agreed. That is the one thing that has been most surprising, indeed shocking, to me is how well Trump resonates with a significant portion of the voting population to the point where they can overlook, rationalize, and in some cases, identify themselves with Trump's hugely flawed human characteristics.

That part is not hard for me to follow. The left has been attacking relentlessly what a certain segment of this population believes in. In their minds, Trump is fighting for that America while no one else seems to be.

It's why I don't see Idhawkman quite the way you and I5 do. He has nowhere else to turn for the America he believes in other than Trump. An America that he believes in and loves while the left including their corporate backers seem to be willing to tear it all down and the right seems content to let happen to avoid politically correct fueled censure.

The fact the left isn't acknowledging that they are alienating a growing number of "deplorables' that feel the country they love is being destroyed by leftist philosophy whether it's the removal of freedoms to pressure political correctness, attacks on police and military personnel, attacks on their religious beliefs, attacks on their "race", and the general idea that America is a bad country are tired of it. Trump is a result of that pent up dissatisfaction and rage. Apparently that was enough to win. There seem to be a lot of very angry Americans that feel the government is not representing them well and Trump is doing a much better job representing their interests.

I can't list all they believe in one post, but it isn't just race. It's a whole lot of things the left is pushing including corporations also shoving leftist culture down everyone's throat while conservatives have to walk on eggshells hoping not to offend anyone or they'll be fired, ostracized, or generally attacked by some leftists/liberals/progressives. This rage has been building for years.

You're real close on this analysis Asea and it is why I believe the US is much closer to a Hot civil war than River or I-5 do. The right is tired of conceding at every turn.

[idhawkman]

It’s not the madness of trump that’s most concerning . It’s how completely deluded guys like Id are to blindly follow him....

Agreed. That is the one thing that has been most surprising, indeed shocking, to me is how well Trump resonates with a significant portion of the voting population to the point where they can overlook, rationalize, and in some cases, identify themselves with Trump's hugely flawed human characteristics.

Based on both your personal attacks, I will accept your concession on the Baltimore race baiting issue.

[idhawkman]

It’s not the madness of trump that’s most concerning . It’s how completely deluded guys like Id are to blindly follow him...

I wish this wasn't the case, but I completely agree. Trump himself is scary, his followers much scarier. I personally think Trump knows the whole thing is a farce, and he will laugh in our faces one day and mock anyone who actually bought his act.

Keep thinking that the Trump supporters are going to take it as a joke. As Asea pointed out, WE ARE FED UP with the left's constant attacks on what we believe in.

ASF, I'm interested to hear your theory more. I'd like to see what the leftist agenda looks like...I'm guessing it's about abortion rights, big business and environmental regulations, abolishing ICE, de-criminalizing cannibis, easing refugee policies, taxing higher income earners and corporations (who manage to pay zero), the usual rift between left and right, correct? What about foreign policy? Everything the right hated about Obama talking to our enemies, we are doing now. Does it really matter to them?

Your spew of garbage has conflicted points in it.

[Aseahawkfan]

ASF, I'm interested to hear your theory more. I'd like to see what the leftist agenda looks like...I'm guessing it's about abortion rights, big business and environmental regulations, abolishing ICE, de-criminalizing cannibis, easing refugee policies, taxing higher income earners and corporations (who manage to pay zero), the usual rift between left and right, correct? What about foreign policy? Everything the right hated about Obama talking to our enemies, we are doing now. Does it really matter to them?

How do I sum up something so vast and varied? You touched on quite a bit. For a president like Trump to get elected, you have to have a lot of pissed off people for a bunch of different reasons he has tapped into.

I'll list a few things I see:

The white folks that feel they're under attack for being white by a growing immigrant and minority leftist base. They're tired of being called racist and the reason for all the ills of other groups. I don't personally think they are angry because they see darker skinned people myself. I think they are angry because they see their culture being attacked and all their cultural heroes and are constantly inundated with "all white people are racist" talk and the like.

The religious conservatives who are being called homophobic for trying to follow The Bible and live a good Christian life. Heck, if the Republicans were smart they would have the Muslims and many minority groups with them because most religious minorities are social conservatives that want nothing to do with homosexuality. They feel homosexuality is a white American thing mostly, so they keep quiet about it. It's not in their community and they're happy to keep it that way. The abortion debate is part of the umbrella of religious conservatism.

Big business monitoring people and pushing leftist philosophy. When people are getting fired for what seem like minor offense like dressing up as a black person in a Halloween costume or holding a more conservative opinion, they have no choice but to feel the leftist philosophy of corporations infringing upon their personal freedoms and threatening their job and way of life.

I honestly don't think conservatives care about cannabis legalization in any great number. The Libertarian movement wants to legalize all drugs. Most conservatives I know support pot legalization. It's not a big issue.

I don't even think the tax on high earners is much of an issue, though that lobby has a lot of money backing them. But they're rich enough to place personal calls to politicians to get what the want done. They don't go to the working class conservative whining for lower taxes. They won't find much support there.

The primary I would say heart of things is the attack on American culture as a whole. A lot of folks love this country and believe that this is a great nation. All they see is minority and immigrant leftist group of Democrats looking to tear down The Founding Fathers, the Constitution, the Police, the military, burning the flag, not standing for the anthem, and generally seeming to hate America, just like Trump said. What else can they think when these folks show almost no love for this nation and never seem to speak well of the nation. They are always criticizing it and playing the identity politics game constantly. What did we expect when you divide a nation not only by political party, but by race, sexuality, gender, and the so many other isms I can't even comprehend them all.

And I almost forgot gun control. A lot of conservatives see the Democrats as wanting to take their guns away so they can fully control and oppress them. They do not trust the government and taking their guns away just makes them trust them less.

You live in Canada. The Canadian government recognizes 23 varieties of sexuality? There Jordan Peterson is considered too conservative. You gotta be honest at some point that leftist philosophy has been going overboard for a while now and Trump is the push back.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree about the left and their attacks against the far right. They've driven them into the opposite corner and away from a position of compromise. AOC is a perfect example of a divisive politician that is causing the right to react by being less willing to compromise. Hillary Clinton added fuel to the fire when she referred to Trump supporters as "deplorables." People voted for DJT for a variety of reasons, and she painted everyone with the same brush stroke. And you're right, it's about more than just race, but that's the part that disturbs me the most. I can set aside some issues, say like gun control or abortion, if I see someone like DJT that I view as a racist in order to distance myself from them because I put a premium on not associating myself with that kind of thinking. It's very disappointing to me to see people that are so comfortable with sharing attributes with the truly evil KKK and Neo Nazi types. I'm afraid of sleeping so close to the dogs that I might some day wake up with fleas, but apparently not as many people share that sentiment as I thought there was.

What amazes me is the number of those really hard core, Trump-can-do-no-wrong supporters that are out there. Prior to 2016, I would have figured them to be 10% tops, but it's much, much higher than that, probably closer to 35 or 40%. Social media has allowed me to see into the minds of many that I've known for decades, including people that I went to high school with and worked for years with, that have bought into Trump's act just as feverishly as Idahawkman has. Some that have expressed their love affair for Trump makes perfect sense to me, but others took me by surprise. I guess I was pretty naïve, or maybe my ego was talking me into thinking that more people thought like me, sort of like the tendency of people to think they're middle of the road or harbor a reasonable POV when in actuality they're on the far end of the spectrum.

I vastly underestimated how deep this divide is, and like I5 says, it's a bit scary.

I'm not scared other than a minor concern of crazy shooters losing their mind or random beatings by young people looking to act tough. Those have been there a while.

I hang around mostly conservatives. They're fat, out of shape, and don't have the physical ability to launch a worthwhile revolution. Even they are addicted to the Internet and TV more than they would be willing to admit. Mostly word warriors is all this is and Trump is the Jester King of word war. There is not enough will left in this nation for a civil war. I would say most Western Nations are in a similar boat. Trump is a bump in the road to us becoming more like Europe or Canada. Once the baby boomers and older generations die off, this country is going to move to a more Canada like left. Not many in America on the left or right could withstand the discomfort of a civil war with the loss of power and internet. And if they can't get their medications, what then? And what if they can't get their daily food and drink fixes. Oh no, I can't get Starbucks and krispy kreme. How can I possibly fight? Modern Americans would have trouble finding their way out of a paper bag without their GPS. For all the rhetoric on both sides, they're all talk. They'll backdoor us all with legislation at some point then send the bureaucratic enforcement agencies to ensure we all fall in line. So don't you worry. All those angry conservatives need their modern corporate amenities as well.

Suffice to say our future is more one of over-reliance on machines and likely some kind of uprising done too late that will be dispersed by the drone and robot army the wealthy and powerful are building to ensure regular humans stay in line in the future. No one seems to be willing to admit this is what is happening, but I'm not one for being asleep at the wheel. The robots are coming and there's no going back. They will magnify the power of the few far beyond what has ever been in the past.

[RiverDog]

I agree about the left and their attacks against the far right. They've driven them into the opposite corner and away from a position of compromise. AOC is a perfect example of a divisive politician that is causing the right to react by being less willing to compromise. Hillary Clinton added fuel to the fire when she referred to Trump supporters as "deplorables." People voted for DJT for a variety of reasons, and she painted everyone with the same brush stroke. And you're right, it's about more than just race, but that's the part that disturbs me the most. I can set aside some issues, say like gun control or abortion, if I see someone like DJT that I view as a racist in order to distance myself from them because I put a premium on not associating myself with that kind of thinking. It's very disappointing to me to see people that are so comfortable with sharing attributes with the truly evil KKK and Neo Nazi types. I'm afraid of sleeping so close to the dogs that I might some day wake up with fleas, but apparently not as many people share that sentiment as I thought there was.

What amazes me is the number of those really hard core, Trump-can-do-no-wrong supporters that are out there. Prior to 2016, I would have figured them to be 10% tops, but it's much, much higher than that, probably closer to 35 or 40%. Social media has allowed me to see into the minds of many that I've known for decades, including people that I went to high school with and worked for years with, that have bought into Trump's act just as feverishly as Idahawkman has. Some that have expressed their love affair for Trump makes perfect sense to me, but others took me by surprise. I guess I was pretty naïve, or maybe my ego was talking me into thinking that more people thought like me, sort of like the tendency of people to think they're middle of the road or harbor a reasonable POV when in actuality they're on the far end of the spectrum.

I vastly underestimated how deep this divide is, and like I5 says, it's a bit scary.

I'm not scared other than a minor concern of crazy shooters losing their mind or random beatings by young people looking to act tough. Those have been there a while.

I hang around mostly conservatives. They're fat, out of shape, and don't have the physical ability to launch a worthwhile revolution. Even they are addicted to the Internet and TV more than they would be willing to admit. Mostly word warriors is all this is and Trump is the Jester King of word war. There is not enough will left in this nation for a civil war. I would say most Western Nations are in a similar boat. Trump is a bump in the road to us becoming more like Europe or Canada. Once the baby boomers and older generations die off, this country is going to move to a more Canada like left.

I agree with most of that, although being fat and out of shape isn't limited to conservatives. When I said it was a bit scary, I'm not sure if I used the best term to describe my sentiments as I was simply tagging onto how I-5 characterized it.

The country is definitely moving to the left, has been for a long time. The Republicans have become Democrats and the Democrats have become Socialists. I just hope it's delayed long enough for me to fulfill the life that I crafted out of the system that I lived and worked within.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with most of that, although being fat and out of shape isn't limited to conservatives. When I said it was a bit scary, I'm not sure if I used the best term to describe my sentiments as I was simply tagging onto how I-5 characterized it.

Haha. Yeah, that's why neither side could fight. Could you imagine? "Can we please have a truce for Starbucks?" Or "I need to check my phone. Please stop shooting."

The country is definitely moving to the left, has been for a long time. The Republicans have become Democrats and the Democrats have become Socialists. I just hope it's delayed long enough for me to fulfill the life that I crafted out of the system that I lived and worked within.

Your life will be fine regardless. The dirty secret is most of what the left terms "socialist" nations nowadays aren't socialist. They're capitalist with some socialist elements. They aren't even close to dumbass Marxists. Most of the former socialist nations are going more capitalist because capitalism is the engine that makes an economy go by leveraging the largest number of people to the highest level of productivity. The socialist elements are there to support the capitalist engine. It's the dumbasses that want to run nations like a personal charity that are the worst like Ocasio-Cortez

[RiverDog]

I agree with most of that, although being fat and out of shape isn't limited to conservatives. When I said it was a bit scary, I'm not sure if I used the best term to describe my sentiments as I was simply tagging onto how I-5 characterized it.

Haha. Yeah, that's why neither side could fight. Could you imagine? "Can we please have a truce for Starbucks?" Or "I need to check my phone. Please stop shooting."

Yea, it would be like watching a couple million sumo wrestlers all squaring off on a reality TV program. I'm not afraid of a physical revolution.

The country is definitely moving to the left, has been for a long time. The Republicans have become Democrats and the Democrats have become Socialists. I just hope it's delayed long enough for me to fulfill the life that I crafted out of the system that I lived and worked within.

Your life will be fine regardless. The dirty secret is most of what the left terms "socialist" nations nowadays aren't socialist. They're capitalist with some socialist elements. They aren't even close to dumbass Marxists. Most of the former socialist nations are going more capitalist because capitalism is the engine that makes an economy go by leveraging the largest number of people to the highest level of productivity. The socialist elements are there to support the capitalist engine. It's the dumbasses that want to run nations like a personal charity that are the worst like Ocasio-Cortez

"The Squad" doesn't have a capitalistic bone in their bodies. That's why AOC was so gleeful when they successfully drove Amazon off of Long Island. Elizabeth Warren wants to levy a tax on Fortune 500 companies. Take a look at how the politicians at the Seattle City Council have blamed all of their problems on companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Starbuck's and driven them out of town. What I worry about is them igniting a war based on class. If you're successful like Jeff Bezos, no matter how much of a philanthropist you are, you're the enemy. They have a lot of crazy ideas that appeal to the young Millennials that don't go beyond Trump's stupid tweets and don't follow politics or dig deep enough into an issue to figure out that the proposals they're being sold are fool's gold.

[idhawkman]

I agree with most of that, although being fat and out of shape isn't limited to conservatives. When I said it was a bit scary, I'm not sure if I used the best term to describe my sentiments as I was simply tagging onto how I-5 characterized it.

The country is definitely moving to the left, has been for a long time. The Republicans have become Democrats and the Democrats have become Socialists. I just hope it's delayed long enough for me to fulfill the life that I crafted out of the system that I lived and worked within.

Really? What about the life you leave your kids to endure?

[Aseahawkfan]

Really? What about the life you leave your kids to endure?

That's a personal thing. I don't know many that have been very good at making sure that is done. I hope you're one of those that made sure their kids had a good start with education support and intelligent, competitive upbringing so your children are not weak and unfocused. I don't think that has anything to do with right or left. Good parenting is not the province of one's political affiliation.

[idhawkman]

That's a personal thing. I don't know many that have been very good at making sure that is done. I hope you're one of those that made sure their kids had a good start with education support and intelligent, competitive upbringing so your children are not weak and unfocused. I don't think that has anything to do with right or left. Good parenting is not the province of one's political affiliation.

Its not really a personal thing at all. I've seen socialism fail a country (3 countries in fact). It is the worst thing I've ever witnessed looking into the eyes of older women who's whole life's savings got eaten up in a matter of 30 days by the inflation that socialism leaves in its wake when it fails. Therefore, I care about the world my kids will live in and I don't trade that for a single moment to throw a protest vote up and hope that it can be stemmed afterwards. The risks are way to severe.

[Aseahawkfan]

Its not really a personal thing at all. I've seen socialism fail a country (3 countries in fact). It is the worst thing I've ever witnessed looking into the eyes of older women who's whole life's savings got eaten up in a matter of 30 days by the inflation that socialism leaves in its wake when it fails. Therefore, I care about the world my kids will live in and I don't trade that for a single moment to throw a protest vote up and hope that it can be stemmed afterwards. The risks are way to severe.

The socialist reforms pushed by current Dems isn't that kind of socialism. It's the kind in Europe, Canada, or Japan. Those nations are doing well enough. Socialized medicine and education reform to improve costs and delivery are needed. Just because they are calling it socialism, doesn't mean it is anything like Marxist socialism. That type of government failed everywhere it was tried. Even China has moved to a capitalism economic engine, while still having socialized medical services and the like.

[RiverDog]

I agree with most of that, although being fat and out of shape isn't limited to conservatives. When I said it was a bit scary, I'm not sure if I used the best term to describe my sentiments as I was simply tagging onto how I-5 characterized it.

The country is definitely moving to the left, has been for a long time. The Republicans have become Democrats and the Democrats have become Socialists. I just hope it's delayed long enough for me to fulfill the life that I crafted out of the system that I lived and worked within.

Really? What about the life you leave your kids to endure?

They will have plenty of time to adjust to a new system. I don't.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Most definitely. I can't wait for the opportunity to get used to Socialism.

[idhawkman]

Its not really a personal thing at all. I've seen socialism fail a country (3 countries in fact). It is the worst thing I've ever witnessed looking into the eyes of older women who's whole life's savings got eaten up in a matter of 30 days by the inflation that socialism leaves in its wake when it fails. Therefore, I care about the world my kids will live in and I don't trade that for a single moment to throw a protest vote up and hope that it can be stemmed afterwards. The risks are way to severe.

The socialist reforms pushed by current Dems isn't that kind of socialism.

Oh c'mon Asea, every time a socialist nations starts they say the same thing you said above. That or, "We know how to do it right and all those others did it the wrong way." History is something you know and familiarize yourself with. You know this is the slope you can't stop once momentum starts.

It's the kind in Europe, Canada, or Japan. Those nations are doing well enough. Socialized medicine and education reform to improve costs and delivery are needed. Just because they are calling it socialism, doesn't mean it is anything like Marxist socialism. That type of government failed everywhere it was tried. Even China has moved to a capitalism economic engine, while still having socialized medical services and the like.

So you are signed onto Obama's "new norm" status for the U.S.?