Democrat Debates and Trump

[RiverDog]

The drop off in college enrollment isn't a problem, it's a symptom of a problem. It is an indication of the shrinking pool of available workers.

I'm not sure what this even means, RD. "College students" != "workers", and if elementary and secondary ed enrollment is flat, but college is down, the problem isn't the number of students available.

It's a function of our declining birth rate and the shrinking pool of available workers.

The bottom line is that due to the steady decline in the birth rate, there aren't going to be enough American born citizens from the 18-35 age group that are needed to pay into group health insurance without taking out. The ratio of worker to retiree is going to continue to get worse and make Medicare and Social Security even more unsustainable. We have a need for young, healthy workers, particularly in those occupations that do not require a college education, like truck drivers, electricians, health care workers, etc.

Agreed. Maybe I'm missing the gist of something here.

That we need young, healthy, law abiding immigrants. I see no other way to supplement our work force with the necessary laborers if we're not going to be able to find them amongst native born citizens and allow our to continue to expand. Do you?

[Aseahawkfan]

I thought it was common knowledge, but here you go!

It’s official: The US economy doesn’t have enough workers.

For nearly a year now, the number of open jobs each month has been higher than the number of people looking for work — the first time that’s happened since the Department of Labor began tracking job turnover two decades ago.

At the end of January, the US economy had 7.6 million unfilled jobs, but only 6.5 million people were looking for work, according to data released Friday by the US Department of Labor. This was the 11th straight month that the number of job openings was higher than the number of job seekers. And each month, the gap has grown.

Nearly ever industry now has a labor shortage, but here’s the twist: Employers are having a harder time filling blue-collar positions than professional positions that require a college education.

https://www.vox.com/2019/3/18/18270916/ ... workers-us

I don't like the source Vox. That's a leftist rag.

If what you say is true, then in a supply-demand labor market real wages should be rising. This labor shortage is a year old, so if it continues we should see a real rise in wages. I want to see that happen first. A short-term boost in employment can quickly be destroyed if the economy has a downturn. If the American economy needed workers like you claim for any extended period of time, then real wages would rise as a shortage in the labor supply would require employers to pay more for labor. I don't believe we've seen that yet.

I don't trust a leftist rag with an agenda pushing open borders. I read a lot of economic information. This is not common information like you state it is except in specific industries. It certainly isn't showing up in real wages yet across the board.

I knew about trucking having a shortage. Trucking still requires training. Healthcare and Tech have had shortages for years less due to the number of people and more due to the lack of education. I would like to see the data on wages in the retail sector. I believe you are overstating the problem by a good margin unless this economic strength continues unchecked.

[Aseahawkfan]

The drop off in college enrollment isn't a problem, it's a symptom of a problem. It is an indication of the shrinking pool of available workers.

The bottom line is that due to the steady decline in the birth rate, there aren't going to be enough American born citizens from the 18-35 age group that are needed to pay into group health insurance without taking out. The ratio of worker to retiree is going to continue to get worse and make Medicare and Social Security even more unsustainable. We have a need for young, healthy workers, particularly in those occupations that do not require a college education, like truck drivers, electricians, health care workers, etc.

Or it could be that college isn't proving to be as valuable as it used to be. In the part of the tech industry I work in, college education is not required. You generally need certifications which are easy to obtain and job experience.

Once again, the type of immigrants you are talking about are not best found in Central and South America. The problem is not immigrants in general, it is immigrants not offering useful skills to our economy. You ever read Canada's immigration policy? They specifically focus on Asian immigrants. They also focus on education levels and don't allow easy anchoring. It's a merit-based system as much as dumbass liberals try to sell this idea that European and Canadian immigration is easier than ours. It is not. They are very focused on specific immigrant groups that bring a higher value to their nation.

Regardless of our need for immigration, it should not be border rushing immigration from the south from poorly run nations that do not provide an educated group to choose from. It should be controlled and focused on improving the nation.

[Hawktawk]

I'm calling BS on you for this. You say he's wise and smart etc, yet he can't even run a police department in his own city as a mayor. How the heck are you going to justify giving him a 3-4 position raise for failing at his current job?

OK buddy I've heard enough of your BS. Buttigeig is dealing with a crisis in his city involving a white cop shooting a black man who was breaking into cars and allegedly pulled a knife on the officer before being shot. The biggest controversy is that the lapel cam was off. #1 you as a Faux watching right wing fanatic would be all over having the cops back normally just as I was before Trump came around. #2 Mayor Pete went to the meetings, the town halls and took the heat and tried to figure out a way to make it better, ADMITTED MISTAKES..

Stack that up against a man who prior to being installed by Vlad Putin was known as a reality TV host and bankruptcy acrobat.Hes a freak on twitter, never wrong, a nasty foul unpleasant disgusting excuse for a human being.Then look at the current record with an acting sec of defense who just stepped down after revelations of horrific family abuse after leaving his job at Boeing where he was part of the rush to market of the deadly max 8 airplane.There's an acting chief of staff who Trump is reportedly souring on and may dump, an acting DHS chief who is resigning, a dumpster fire in Iran and N Korea, in the idiotic trade wars hes losing( well we are) a man who ran on immigration and is deluged with the most refugees in 15 years when he inherited a 30 year LOW in border crossings.

And you want to point out Mayor petes problems with his police force?????You're freaking ridiculous even pointing out a single flaw in any politician challenging the worst most ineffective scatterbrained imbecile ever to disgrace the oval office...

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm calling BS on you for this. You say he's wise and smart etc, yet he can't even run a police department in his own city as a mayor. How the heck are you going to justify giving him a 3-4 position raise for failing at his current job?

OK buddy I've heard enough of your BS. Buttigeig is dealing with a crisis in his city involving a white cop shooting a black man who was breaking into cars and allegedly pulled a knife on the officer before being shot. The biggest controversy is that the lapel cam was off. #1 you as a Faux watching right wing fanatic would be all over having the cops back normally just as I was before Trump came around. #2 Mayor Pete went to the meetings, the town halls and took the heat and tried to figure out a way to make it better, ADMITTED MISTAKES..

Stack that up against a man who prior to being installed by Vlad Putin was known as a reality TV host and bankruptcy acrobat.Hes a freak on twitter, never wrong, a nasty foul unpleasant disgusting excuse for a human being.Then look at the current record with an acting sec of defense who just stepped down after revelations of horrific family abuse after leaving his job at Boeing where he was part of the rush to market of the deadly max 8 airplane.There's an acting chief of staff who Trump is reportedly souring on and may dump, an acting DHS chief who is resigning, a dumpster fire in Iran and N Korea, in the idiotic trade wars hes losing( well we are) a man who ran on immigration and is deluged with the most refugees in 15 years when he inherited a 30 year LOW in border crossings.

And you want to point out Mayor petes problems with his police force?????You're freaking ridiculous even pointing out a single flaw in any politician challenging the worst most ineffective scatterbrained imbecile ever to disgrace the oval office...

Well, if this is true then you just proved even the worst president in history can preside over one of the best economies in history. We are a pretty amazing nation when the worst president ever elected, a traitor, and the most despised president in history can't stop America from being the most powerful and productive nation on the planet. More power to us I guess.

[I-5]

Since ID’s first response to my reply at the top of the thread was about America not being ready for socialism, I’d like to share that I grew up in Seattle from 2nd grade all the way to graduating from the U of W, and worked in the design field (also in Seattle) for 25 years before marrying a Canadian girl and moving to Vancouver BC 4 years ago. Funny story; when we were dating, my wife would routinely get interrogated at the border when it was her turn to visit me because they assumed any single woman traveling alone was planning to hide in the US, and were perplexed and slightly annoyed when she would adamantly tell them she much preferred living in Canada and had zero desire to stay in the US. True to her word, she’d only agree to get married if I moved up north. Fast forward to tidat, and I honest feel bad for anyone who gets sick or injured in the US to the point they need to see a doctor, because it can financially ruin you. We stayed in the hospital for 3 days after our our was born, and it was such a shock to this American when the staff simply smiled and said bye when we went home. There was literally no paperwork, nothing at all to sign, nothing mailed to us. They just said come back if you need anything. Since then, we’ve visited the walk in clinic to check up on when we’re not feeling well or worried about anything at all, and I’ve still never seen any paperwork (they just ask for your health number). Of course, I do pay a higher tax rate now, but the 10-12% difference (it was about 39% last year because I sold some property and that put me in a higher bracket), and I also make slightly less now than I did in the US, but on balance I sincerely MUCH prefer my current situation now, and I think anyone from the US would be pleasantly surprised, too. I still believe in capitalism, but I LOVE the social healthcare. If and when I apply for Canadian citizenship, then it will be free for life even if I live outside of Canada. The best part is that I feel safe knowing my family will always be cared for by my government. Don’t knock it til you try it.

[RiverDog]

If what you say is true, then in a supply-demand labor market real wages should be rising. This labor shortage is a year old, so if it continues we should see a real rise in wages. I want to see that happen first. A short-term boost in employment can quickly be destroyed if the economy has a downturn. If the American economy needed workers like you claim for any extended period of time, then real wages would rise as a shortage in the labor supply would require employers to pay more for labor. I don't believe we've seen that yet.

Wages are a lagging indicator. Companies don't often times react ahead of time. Additionally, many wages are controlled by union contracts and will only increase as a part of the collective bargaining process. The contracts I was involved with were all 3-5 years in length.

Having said that, wages have been going up. Trump has..surprise surprise...claimed credit for them. To be fair, some of the wage growth is due to the minimum wage increases in a number of states that are mandated by law

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages

I don't trust a leftist rag with an agenda pushing open borders. I read a lot of economic information. This is not common information like you state it is except in specific industries. It certainly isn't showing up in real wages yet across the board.

Which leftist rag are you talking about? The information is taken from the Department of Labor.

I knew about trucking having a shortage. Trucking still requires training. Healthcare and Tech have had shortages for years less due to the number of people and more due to the lack of education. I would like to see the data on wages in the retail sector. I believe you are overstating the problem by a good margin unless this economic strength continues unchecked.

Truck driving courses are relatively short and cheap compared to other professions. The ones I've seen are from 150-200 hours of training and cost $3-4,000. As far as health care professionals go, not all of the job openings are for positions requiring a lot of training or education, like nurses aids, medical assistants, etc.

I don't always believe numbers and stats, but in this case, those on the labor shortage lines up with our declining birth rate and aging population. They make sense, like 2 plus 2 equaling 4. Additionally, I also have plenty of contacts from my former employer, who is trying to expand, and they cite numerous difficulties in hiring and retaining new workers, and they offer very generous health care and 401K benefits. Most are discouraged because it involves odd shifts and working weekends as they're a 24/7 operation.

As far as immigrants from central America goes, you are probably correct, that there is not a lot of highly education and/or trained individuals seeking entry compared to other countries. But they do exist. I have a number of friends and co workers from central America, and they speak very good English and obtained high school equivalent education they obtained in their home countries. I'm not advocating that we let everyone in, but we need to conducting interviews, give them short tests, and make determinations on how much potential exists for an applicant to obtain non farm, full time work.

[RiverDog]

Since ID’s first response to my reply at the top of the thread was about America not being ready for socialism, I’d like to share that I grew up in Seattle from 2nd grade all the way to graduating from the U of W, and worked in the design field (also in Seattle) for 25 years before marrying a Canadian girl and moving to Vancouver BC 4 years ago. Funny story; when we were dating, my wife would routinely get interrogated at the border when it was her turn to visit me because they assumed any single woman traveling alone was planning to hide in the US, and were perplexed and slightly annoyed when she would adamantly tell them she much preferred living in Canada and had zero desire to stay in the US. True to her word, she’d only agree to get married if I moved up north. Fast forward to tidat, and I honest feel bad for anyone who gets sick or injured in the US to the point they need to see a doctor, because it can financially ruin you. We stayed in the hospital for 3 days after our our was born, and it was such a shock to this American when the staff simply smiled and said bye when we went home. There was literally no paperwork, nothing at all to sign, nothing mailed to us. They just said come back if you need anything. Since then, we’ve visited the walk in clinic to check up on when we’re not feeling well or worried about anything at all, and I’ve still never seen any paperwork (they just ask for your health number). Of course, I do pay a higher tax rate now, but the 10-12% difference (it was about 39% last year because I sold some property and that put me in a higher bracket), and I also make slightly less now than I did in the US, but on balance I sincerely MUCH prefer my current situation now, and I think anyone from the US would be pleasantly surprised, too. I still believe in capitalism, but I LOVE the social healthcare. If and when I apply for Canadian citizenship, then it will be free for life even if I live outside of Canada. The best part is that I feel safe knowing my family will always be cared for by my government. Don’t knock it til you try it.

I'm not necessarily knocking the quality of care you are receiving in Canada. I used to hear complaints from Canadians about months long waits to get routine procedures like MRI's and CAT scans and that they would often times come down the the US for surgeries, but that was probably 20 years ago and it may have improved since then. I don't want to keep kicking a dead horse, but many of the arguments presented in our various debates on health care and insurance revolves around the United States essentially subsidizing health care in socialistic countries like Canada and western Europe. If the US were to go to a single payer system and restrict drug companies from making a profit off the drugs they sell, it would have a world wide impact.

I don't have a lot of paperwork to deal with when I go to the doctor. I have a $20 copay for office visits that I'll pay immediately. A month or so later, I'll receive an explanation of benefits from my insurance company of which I may or may not have an additional charge to pay depending on if my deductible and out of pocket thresholds have been met. My wife is on Medicare with a Plan F supplement, has been averaging 3-4 doctors appointments a month, and she doesn't have to pay a dime.

[I-5]

And I’m not knocking what you’re saying, Riv. I just wanted to share a non-theoretical, completely firsthand genuine account of what it’s like as an American who has experienced both healthcare systems. We’ve probably visited the hospital or clinic 15-20 times since I’ve been here (about 5-6 times per year), not because we’re always sick but because we want to make sure we’re healthy (which sounds crazy I know but is actually sensible), and I don’t think we’ve ever waited more than an hour to be seen with no appointment. The quality of the care and the condition of the facilities is no different or in some cases better than what I experienced in Seattle. I will also say that the doctors we encounter here seem less stressed out and seemed extraordinarily patient with any questions we have. They’re also younger in general from what I’ve seen so far.

I’m sure Canadians with a lot of money can easily go to the US for any procedure they want, but the thing is, they don’t NEED to. If I know of any firsthand accounts of cancer patients, I’ll let you know. I do know someone who has had to have major back surgery multiple times, and he did it all here and all paid for by the govt, and doing well now. His did involve waiting, because his involved different electives, but his wait was no longer than a few months, and was never tempted to fork over huge $$ to get treated in the US.

[Hawktawk]

Well, if this is true then you just proved even the worst president in history can preside over one of the best economies in history. We are a pretty amazing nation when the worst president ever elected, a traitor, and the most despised president in history can't stop America from being the most powerful and productive nation on the planet. More power to us I guess.

I agree completely with you for once Asea. First of all the "make america great again"slogan was a great campaign slogan for sure but it was an insult to the greatest nation in history which has always been great and whose greatness is proven no more so than the last 2.5 years when it hasn't utterly collapsed with the adult day care known as the trump WH. The man is an unhinged incompetent disaster which is why his reelect # is at 37% despite this economy.

As for this great economy, one of the best ever etc it probably needs its own thread and Im no economist but here's a few things to ponder. Trump inherited a 7 year economic expansion and equally long bull market run. Unemployment was 4.7 % when the election was held and had dropped to the low 4% range BEFORE HE TOOK OFFICE. The economy actually created more jobs monthly in the final 2 years of the Obama administration than the first 2 of Trump. Of the 20 million jobs added in the current economic expansion 15 million were under Obama and 5 million under Trump but lets look at the baseline. Obama inherited 10% unemployment and a 64.5% labor participation rate and an economy shedding jobs at hundreds of thousands monthly. Trump inherited an economy producing jobs at a 220 k monthly clip. He also inherited a labor participation rate nearer 63% Putting that in context if the participation rate was what Obama inherited there would be another 9 million workers out of a job and about 8.5% unemployment.

0ne in 4 families nobody works. MOF the unemployment rate staying at 50 year lows is more a byproduct of people continuing to exit the workforce than actual job creation. Feb saw only 20k jobs created and mays # has been revised down to 75K. And of these 20 million jobs "created" by Obama/Trump over 40% pay less than 15$ per hour.

The market has bounced up and down for over a year and a strong argument could be made it would do far better if dildo baggins wasn't tweeting out tariff threats on the S#1tt#r in his bathrobe at 1 AM as most of the market dives have directly followed his trade war proclamations. 80% of the market is on autopilot computer generated trading I am told anyway.
Steve Mnunchin is one of the good hires and has helped the market which hates uncertainty historically as has the President bullying and threatening the fed chair into keeping rates so low that nobody is saving any money in banks, consumer debt is at an all time high and the ponzi scheme known as the stock market is the only way to make any return on investment.

Add to that the fact that this Administration has blown the deficit wide open to the tune of Trillion a year deficits with no end in sight in large measure due to the biggest tax giveaway ever to the wealthiest people in the world , well it all affects economic growth positively short term but there will come a day of reckoning that will make the 2008 meltdown look like an economic expansion Im afraid.And I dont think China will be there with another 3 Trillion to bail us out this time, only we would need probably 10 Trillion this time.

And beyond all that when we've become so transactional that our 401 K or the employment rate is a reason to reward a treasonous mentally unfit assaulter of women, a remorseless liar,psychotic twitter addict, a racist, coddler of dictators while dissing our allies of hundreds of years we really haven't been made great at all, quite the latter. America will be a lot greater when he's gone and the sooner the better.

[RiverDog]

And I’m not knocking what you’re saying, Riv. I just wanted to share a non-theoretical, completely firsthand genuine account of what it’s like as an American who has experienced both healthcare systems. We’ve probably visited the hospital or clinic 15-20 times since I’ve been here (about 5-6 times per year), not because we’re always sick but because we want to make sure we’re healthy (which sounds crazy I know but is actually sensible), and I don’t think we’ve ever waited more than an hour to be seen with no appointment. The quality of the care and the condition of the facilities is no different or in some cases better than what I experienced in Seattle. I will also say that the doctors we encounter here seem less stressed out and seemed extraordinarily patient with any questions we have. They’re also younger in general from what I’ve seen so far.

I’m sure Canadians with a lot of money can easily go to the US for any procedure they want, but the thing is, they don’t NEED to. If I know of any firsthand accounts of cancer patients, I’ll let you know. I do know someone who has had to have major back surgery multiple times, and he did it all here and all paid for by the govt, and doing well now. His did involve waiting, because his involved different electives, but his wait was no longer than a few months, and was never tempted to fork over huge $$ to get treated in the US.

I appreciate your sharing your experience in Canada. It's been awhile since I've talked to any Canadians about their health care system. The company I used to work for had a plant in Tabor, Alberta, and a lot of those folks hated it, particularly the part about having to wait so long for common procedures like MRI's. But that was a long time ago and just a random sampling.

The key in the US is being covered. One of the problems with a voluntary system like we have is that a lot of younger people can't see the sense in paying several hundred dollars a month in insurance premiums since they are perfectly healthy. They'll opt out then they get in a car accident or find out they have cancer and get hit with huge medical bills. Their opting out of insurance coverage also drives up the premiums everyone else pays. As a conservative, I don't like the idea of the government telling an individual how to manage their paycheck, but on the other hand, it's not fair to other participants as a lot of times those folks that roll the dice and lose get a lot of those debts cancelled when they go through bankruptcy and those costs get passed onto the other participants in the form of higher premiums.

[burrrton]

It's a function of our declining birth rate and the shrinking pool of available workers.

If it was a function of a declining birth rate, it would match primary and secondary enrollment. It doesn't, so there's something else at work there.

Or it could be that college isn't proving to be as valuable as it used to be.

This is unquestionably true, even if you don't believe it's the *only* problem.

[burrrton]

his wait was no longer than a few months

That you think this supports, rather than damns, the Canadian system is telling.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies ... anada-2018

"Waiting for treatment has become a defining characteristic of Canadian health care... Specialist physicians surveyed report a median waiting time of 19.8 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment."

[idhawkman]

OK buddy I've heard enough of your BS. Buttigeig is dealing with a crisis in his city involving a white cop shooting a black man who was breaking into cars and allegedly pulled a knife on the officer before being shot. The biggest controversy is that the lapel cam was off. #1 you as a Faux watching right wing fanatic would be all over having the cops back normally just as I was before Trump came around. #2 Mayor Pete went to the meetings, the town halls and took the heat and tried to figure out a way to make it better, ADMITTED MISTAKES..

Stack that up against a man who prior to being installed by Vlad Putin was known as a reality TV host and bankruptcy acrobat.Hes a freak on twitter, never wrong, a nasty foul unpleasant disgusting excuse for a human being.Then look at the current record with an acting sec of defense who just stepped down after revelations of horrific family abuse after leaving his job at Boeing where he was part of the rush to market of the deadly max 8 airplane.There's an acting chief of staff who Trump is reportedly souring on and may dump, an acting DHS chief who is resigning, a dumpster fire in Iran and N Korea, in the idiotic trade wars hes losing( well we are) a man who ran on immigration and is deluged with the most refugees in 15 years when he inherited a 30 year LOW in border crossings.

And you want to point out Mayor petes problems with his police force?????You're freaking ridiculous even pointing out a single flaw in any politician challenging the worst most ineffective scatterbrained imbecile ever to disgrace the oval office...

You can't even get the reason he's being attacked right. Its not only because of the shooting. Its more about how he fired the black police chief and in his tenure has reduced the number of black officers on the force to less than 10%. He's a racist in the worst kind of way in that he does it behind the scenes and then claims it isn't him.

BTW, I fixed your poor quoting in this response by taking my words out of your response. PLEASE LEARN HOW TO QUOTE PROPERLY!!!

[idhawkman]

Since ID’s first response to my reply at the top of the thread was about America not being ready for socialism, I’d like to share that I grew up in Seattle from 2nd grade all the way to graduating from the U of W, and worked in the design field (also in Seattle) for 25 years before marrying a Canadian girl and moving to Vancouver BC 4 years ago. Funny story; when we were dating, my wife would routinely get interrogated at the border when it was her turn to visit me because they assumed any single woman traveling alone was planning to hide in the US, and were perplexed and slightly annoyed when she would adamantly tell them she much preferred living in Canada and had zero desire to stay in the US. True to her word, she’d only agree to get married if I moved up north. Fast forward to tidat, and I honest feel bad for anyone who gets sick or injured in the US to the point they need to see a doctor, because it can financially ruin you. We stayed in the hospital for 3 days after our our was born, and it was such a shock to this American when the staff simply smiled and said bye when we went home. There was literally no paperwork, nothing at all to sign, nothing mailed to us. They just said come back if you need anything. Since then, we’ve visited the walk in clinic to check up on when we’re not feeling well or worried about anything at all, and I’ve still never seen any paperwork (they just ask for your health number). Of course, I do pay a higher tax rate now, but the 10-12% difference (it was about 39% last year because I sold some property and that put me in a higher bracket), and I also make slightly less now than I did in the US, but on balance I sincerely MUCH prefer my current situation now, and I think anyone from the US would be pleasantly surprised, too. I still believe in capitalism, but I LOVE the social healthcare. If and when I apply for Canadian citizenship, then it will be free for life even if I live outside of Canada. The best part is that I feel safe knowing my family will always be cared for by my government. Don’t knock it til you try it.

I have a buddy whose dad died of cancer in Canada last year. That is not so pleasant a story just so you know. You may want to move back here before you get to the age of no longer being a productive citizen up there.

[idhawkman]

I don't always believe numbers and stats, but in this case, those on the labor shortage lines up with our declining birth rate and aging population.

You still haven't addressed that the "declining birth rate" has only happened since 2007 which puts the shortage of people being born at only 12 years old. Mostly due to the lack of a good economy through the Obumer years.

[idhawkman]

And I’m not knocking what you’re saying, Riv. I just wanted to share a non-theoretical, completely firsthand genuine account of what it’s like as an American who has experienced both healthcare systems. We’ve probably visited the hospital or clinic 15-20 times since I’ve been here (about 5-6 times per year), not because we’re always sick but because we want to make sure we’re healthy (which sounds crazy I know but is actually sensible), and I don’t think we’ve ever waited more than an hour to be seen with no appointment. The quality of the care and the condition of the facilities is no different or in some cases better than what I experienced in Seattle. I will also say that the doctors we encounter here seem less stressed out and seemed extraordinarily patient with any questions we have. They’re also younger in general from what I’ve seen so far.

I’m sure Canadians with a lot of money can easily go to the US for any procedure they want, but the thing is, they don’t NEED to. If I know of any firsthand accounts of cancer patients, I’ll let you know. I do know someone who has had to have major back surgery multiple times, and he did it all here and all paid for by the govt, and doing well now. His did involve waiting, because his involved different electives, but his wait was no longer than a few months, and was never tempted to fork over huge $$ to get treated in the US.

I'm curious, can you sue a doctor in Canada for multiple millions for malpractice? who pays their malpractice insurance and who pays for their education?

[I-5]

ID, I’m sorry to hear about your friends dads passing. People die of cancer everywhere. Do you have stats that say care in the US is any different or better? That is, besides the fact that the individual costs are huge in the US, and zero in Canada.

You’re also inaccurate about your warning that somehow you should be worried when you’re no longer useful to the country. What policy exactly are you referencing? As I told you, citizens are covered for life.

I can’t stop you from scaring yourself about socialized healthcare, but from having seen both firsthand, speaking from my experience, it’s a no brainer.

[burrrton]

I can’t stop you from scaring yourself about socialized healthcare, but from having seen both firsthand, speaking from my experience, it’s a no brainer.

I'd think so, too, if I was credulous enough to believe this:

individual costs are huge in the US, and zero in Canada.

You think Canadian MDs are paid with dollars off some money tree in Ottawa?

[RiverDog]

...besides the fact that the individual costs are huge in the US, and zero in Canada.

Ironically, I'll be signing up for Medicare tomorrow as July 1st will be 3 months prior to my 65th birthday month. When I go on the system on Oct. 1st, I will be paying $135/month for the Part B premium and $50/month for a Plan F High Deductible ($2200) supplement. My wife's Medicare Part B premium is the same as mine will be but her Plan F supplement is a little more pricey at $223/month but it pays for everything Medicare doesn't.

Added together, our Medicare premiums will be $543/month or $6516 annually based on 2019 rates. In addition, my employer will set up what's called an RRA (Retiree Reimbursement Account) for me and contribute $6400/year in health care credits to it. I will be able to use these credits to get reimbursed for both me and my wife's Medicare and Medicare supplement premiums, prescription drugs, anything that the IRS considers a health care expense. Taking into account the RRA, the two of us will be paying $116 a year for all of our medical expenses except prescription drugs and any medical expenses I may incur (fingers crossed, I'm in good health at the moment) that's not covered by Medicare.

Subtract your tax rate from the 12% I'm paying and times that amount by $68,000, our income from 2018, and tell me what you come up with. I'll bet it's more than $116.

And before anyone says that I shouldn't be including my RRA, if we ever go to a single payer system, my company, and other companies that have similar Retiree Medical plans, will chit can that thing faster than a New York minute as any financing method would certainly include a steep corporate tax. Now do you see why I don't want anything to do with socialized medicine?

[Aseahawkfan]

Ironically, I'll be signing up for Medicare tomorrow as July 1st will be 3 months prior to my 65th birthday month. When I go on the system on Oct. 1st, I will be paying $135/month for the Part B premium and $50/month for a Plan F High Deductible ($2200) supplement. My wife's Medicare Part B premium is the same as mine will be but her Plan F supplement is a little more pricey at $223/month but it pays for everything Medicare doesn't.

Added together, our Medicare premiums will be $543/month or $6516 annually based on 2019 rates. In addition, my employer will set up what's called an RRA (Retiree Reimbursement Account) for me and contribute $6400/year in health care credits to it. I will be able to use these credits to get reimbursed for both me and my wife's Medicare and Medicare supplement premiums, prescription drugs, anything that the IRS considers a health care expense. Taking into account the RRA, the two of us will be paying $116 a year for all of our medical expenses except prescription drugs and any medical expenses I may incur (fingers crossed, I'm in good health at the moment) that's not covered by Medicare.

Subtract your tax rate from the 12% I'm paying and times that amount by $68,000, our income from 2018, and tell me what you come up with. I'll bet it's more than $116.

And before anyone says that I shouldn't be including my RRA, if we ever go to a single payer system, my company, and other companies that have similar Retiree Medical plans, will chit can that thing faster than a New York minute as any financing method would certainly include a steep corporate tax. Now do you see why I don't want anything to do with socialized medicine?

No, I don't see why. I think you haven't looked very deeply into socialized healthcare in other nations. I've looked at corporate tax rates in Germany and Canada and they are not far off here. From what I can tell socialized medicine is funded by taxes on individuals and extreme cost controls. Literally, we pay five times as much or more for many many procedures and medicines than other nations.

Your healthcare funding and profit argument was a better one than your tax argument. I have no idea why you like your health or I should say unhealthiness looked at as a primary income stream to a big healthcare company. They don't want to cure you, they want to find new sicknesses to treat to fund their growth. This was even discussed with Gilead Pharma which made the mistake of producing a cure for I believe Hepatitis B and thus cut their profits because they couldn't keep their "customers" returning. A couple of financial analysts were chuckling about how creating a cure was not profitable and it was better to create something that would be taken endlessly. This is what you prefer? I don't know, man. I don't like it.

Investing in bio-tech and healthcare has really changed my view of all this. I do not like being looked at it as the primary revenue stream of biotech because nearly every other nation has put strict cost limits on profiting off the sick.

I'm not going to pull up some specific article on all this as I used to be more like you before I started investing in biotech and healthcare. You can only listen to discussions on life threatening disease and how the American market is necessary for profitability for so long before you start going, "Hmm. My illness is looked at as a profit opportunity. I don't know if I like that." Not to mention the feeling of "I need to find a job or I can't afford healthcare." All while still seeing your relatives die of cancer even with available medical care at the same rate as other nations.

I'm just not seeing the bang for the buck. I think we can come up with a better system with more economic freedom and less of a "profit from the dying" macabre morality to it.

[burrrton]

No, I don't see why.

Then you're not reading carefully enough.

The problems you describe don't go away with 'socialized medicine". They either get (arguably) worse, or are replaced with different problems, and you won't have any choice in the matter once it's in place, at least not in any timeframe within a lifetime.

[RiverDog]

No, I don't see why. I think you haven't looked very deeply into socialized healthcare in other nations. I've looked at corporate tax rates in Germany and Canada and they are not far off here. From what I can tell socialized medicine is funded by taxes on individuals and extreme cost controls. Literally, we pay five times as much or more for many many procedures and medicines than other nations.

Your healthcare funding and profit argument was a better one than your tax argument. I have no idea why you like your health or I should say unhealthiness looked at as a primary income stream to a big healthcare company. They don't want to cure you, they want to find new sicknesses to treat to fund their growth. This was even discussed with Gilead Pharma which made the mistake of producing a cure for I believe Hepatitis B and thus cut their profits because they couldn't keep their "customers" returning. A couple of financial analysts were chuckling about how creating a cure was not profitable and it was better to create something that would be taken endlessly. This is what you prefer? I don't know, man. I don't like it.

Investing in bio-tech and healthcare has really changed my view of all this. I do not like being looked at it as the primary revenue stream of biotech because nearly every other nation has put strict cost limits on profiting off the sick.

I'm not going to pull up some specific article on all this as I used to be more like you before I started investing in biotech and healthcare. You can only listen to discussions on life threatening disease and how the American market is necessary for profitability for so long before you start going, "Hmm. My illness is looked at as a profit opportunity. I don't know if I like that." Not to mention the feeling of "I need to find a job or I can't afford healthcare." All while still seeing your relatives die of cancer even with available medical care at the same rate as other nations.

I'm just not seeing the bang for the buck. I think we can come up with a better system with more economic freedom and less of a "profit from the dying" macabre morality to it.

We're kicking a dead horse. I'm not changing your mind and you most certainly aren't changing mine.

[I-5]

burrrton, clearly I’m not suggesting that healthcare in Canada doesn’t have costa attached. We pay for it as individual Canadian taxpayers, but I’m saying you personally won’t get a bill, which makes a HUGE difference in individuals’ fiscal health. I’m also saying that the change in my taxes is not as big as you might think. To answer Riv, it’s not just doing the math in any given year where you might need less or more doctor visits or claims to file, but the overall qualiry of life and peace of mind that comes with it can’t be underestimated. Canada is far from perfect, but it’s a breath of fresh air to this American, and I think if you experienced it, you’d be surprised.

[burrrton]

We pay for it as individual Canadian taxpayers, but I’m saying you personally won’t get a bill, which makes a HUGE difference in individuals’ fiscal health.

Of course, but the point is "NO COST" is the feel-good way of characterizing it, when all you're really arguing for is removing the consumer even further from the cost of treatment ("You don't have an 'insurance premium' anymore- we just take it straight out of your check- thank you, government woohooo!").

It may have palliative benefits, but you're not helping things overall, and are arguably worsening them.

It still costs a sh*tload- if it's any less, it's because you force providers to accept less money, and/or see fewer patients. I hope I don't have to explain the drawbacks to that (see my link above if so).

Canada is far from perfect, but it’s a breath of fresh air to this American, and I think if you experienced it, you’d be surprised.

I've known a lot more people who've "experienced it" than most, and to a man, they've all had sh*tloads of private insurance in addition to whatever standard care offered, because it wasn't close to sufficient for what they were comfortable dealing with (they're all high earners- take from that what you will).

[I-5]

Its amazing how much we Americans are willing to stick with the most expensive healthcare bar none no matter how much anyone tries to spin it. What other citizens of other countries start Go Fund Me accounts to pay for treatment? It’s so common now. I need a real answer to that question.

If you think US healthcare has better outcomes, better research it. One of the strongest indicators of a country’s health is infant mortality rate. Among first world countries, US is highest at 5.8 per 1000 (Canada is 4.8, Germany is 3.2, and Japan has the lowest at 2.1)

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha ... item-start

[I-5]

Well, burrrton, I’ve experienced it firsthand, and although I have a supplemental work plan, I haven’t even attempted to use it, because everything I’ve gone in for was already covered. My wife keeps telling me to take advantage of the LMT (Licensed Massage Therapy), because that’s covered, too.

[RiverDog]

Its amazing how much we Americans are willing to stick with the most expensive healthcare bar none no matter how much anyone tries to spin it.

There's lots of reasons. I'd rather do business with the Devil I know than the Devil I don't know. We don't know how going to a completely new system will work out. There's a lot of Americans, myself being one, that don't trust our government to run something as big and complex as a single payer health care system after we've seen what they've done with Social Security. Government workers, in general, are a different breed than their private sector counterparts because there is no competition, no fear of losing your business. A government take over of a major industry is bound to have a negative effect on Wall Street and with it, our 401K's and other investments.

The current proposals have not been well thought out, particularly on the funding side. The Dems want to create a wealth tax, which has the possibility of being ruled as unconstitutional as the only tax the Constitution has authorized is an income tax. They also want a tax on big businesses. Both would be extremely difficult to collect as there would be a multitude of ways to hide wealth and companies would move many of their assets out of the country to avoid the tax, so say hello to an expanded, more aggressive IRS. A massive tax increase on individuals could push the economy into recession as they will react by not buying.

Even if I were open to a new system, they'd have to come to me with a lot better plan than some of the ideas they've been floating around. And by the way, you never answered my question regarding my comparison of my health care expenses.

[idhawkman]

Ironically, I'll be signing up for Medicare tomorrow as July 1st will be 3 months prior to my 65th birthday month. When I go on the system on Oct. 1st, I will be paying $135/month for the Part B premium and $50/month for a Plan F High Deductible ($2200) supplement. My wife's Medicare Part B premium is the same as mine will be but her Plan F supplement is a little more pricey at $223/month but it pays for everything Medicare doesn't.

Added together, our Medicare premiums will be $543/month or $6516 annually based on 2019 rates. In addition, my employer will set up what's called an RRA (Retiree Reimbursement Account) for me and contribute $6400/year in health care credits to it. I will be able to use these credits to get reimbursed for both me and my wife's Medicare and Medicare supplement premiums, prescription drugs, anything that the IRS considers a health care expense. Taking into account the RRA, the two of us will be paying $116 a year for all of our medical expenses except prescription drugs and any medical expenses I may incur (fingers crossed, I'm in good health at the moment) that's not covered by Medicare.

Subtract your tax rate from the 12% I'm paying and times that amount by $68,000, our income from 2018, and tell me what you come up with. I'll bet it's more than $116.

And before anyone says that I shouldn't be including my RRA, if we ever go to a single payer system, my company, and other companies that have similar Retiree Medical plans, will chit can that thing faster than a New York minute as any financing method would certainly include a steep corporate tax. Now do you see why I don't want anything to do with socialized medicine?

Congratulations River. You have a real good plan there. Medical costs are a huge factor in most American families lives when considering retirement. My sister who is 61 is working now because of medical insurance costs. If it wasn't for the high premiums she would have retired 2 years ago.

[idhawkman]

I have no idea why you like your health or I should say unhealthiness looked at as a primary income stream to a big healthcare company. They don't want to cure you, they want to find new sicknesses to treat to fund their growth. This was even discussed with Gilead Pharma which made the mistake of producing a cure for I believe Hepatitis B and thus cut their profits because they couldn't keep their "customers" returning. A couple of financial analysts were chuckling about how creating a cure was not profitable and it was better to create something that would be taken endlessly. This is what you prefer? I don't know, man. I don't like it.

Investing in bio-tech and healthcare has really changed my view of all this. I do not like being looked at it as the primary revenue stream of biotech because nearly every other nation has put strict cost limits on profiting off the sick.

You made me stop and think about this. I had an uncle that had ulcers for years and the doctor that treated him would treat him a couple times a year. He was on vacation and went to a new doctor that called bullshit on his doctor and prescribed him a pill that cleared up the problem. He never had another issue. So there is some truth in treating the symptoms and not the root cause to make more profits.

[idhawkman]

burrrton, clearly I’m not suggesting that healthcare in Canada doesn’t have costa attached. We pay for it as individual Canadian taxpayers, but I’m saying you personally won’t get a bill, which makes a HUGE difference in individuals’ fiscal health. I’m also saying that the change in my taxes is not as big as you might think. To answer Riv, it’s not just doing the math in any given year where you might need less or more doctor visits or claims to file, but the overall qualiry of life and peace of mind that comes with it can’t be underestimated. Canada is far from perfect, but it’s a breath of fresh air to this American, and I think if you experienced it, you’d be surprised.

I haven't seen you answer my question yet about whether or not you can sue a canadian doctor for malpractice.

I believe that the major costs of healthcare would be driven out of the American system if there was Tort reform that would reduce the costs for doctors to have malpractice insurance and over subscribe tests to avoid suits.

[I-5]

Sorry ID, didn’t see your question. Can you sue a doctor in Canada? The answer is yes, if they are considered of breaching the ‘medical standard of care’. There are good and bad, competent and incompetent people everywhere on earth.

https://contelawyers.ca/canada-suing-me ... egligence/

[RiverDog]

Congratulations River. You have a real good plan there. Medical costs are a huge factor in most American families lives when considering retirement. My sister who is 61 is working now because of medical insurance costs. If it wasn't for the high premiums she would have retired 2 years ago.

Hopefully my former employer keeps funding their retiree medical plan. They state over and over again in the policy that it is subject to termination at any time.

Buying health care insurance on your own when you're over 50 is extremely expensive. I'm currently paying $1045/month, and that's a subsidized rate and covers just me. It would have been much cheaper for me to have taken COBRA for 18 months but in order to take advantage of the post-65 benefits, I had to be enrolled in their plan the moment I retired.

Which brings up another point. There are a lot of people that would have retired before 65 but didn't because of the cost of providing health care. If we institute a single payer plan and made it free for individuals, there will be no motivation for people to continue to work until 65, so there's going to be a lot more people retiring at 62 and drawing Social Security. One of the problems with SSA's fund is that too many people are taking their benefits early, which is why they're encouraging people to work longer. Going to a single payer health care system will be a further drain on an already problematic SS fund.

[burrrton]

Its amazing how much we Americans are willing to stick with the most expensive healthcare bar none no matter how much anyone tries to spin it.

It is extremely expensive, but that's the drawback of the situation we're in.

One of the strongest indicators of a country’s health is infant mortality rate.

Oh for chrissakes- you say this right after telling us we should "research it"? You going to quote the WHO rankings for us next?

If you'd done any reading on the subject (I have because I worked in the health industry for 10 years), you'd know "infant mortality rate" is calculated *vastly* differently among virtually all countries so is as unreliable a statistic as you can find.

That you chose to bring it up at all, let alone calling it "one of the strongest indicators", is hilarious.

[I-5]

Riv, I totally understand your concerns about ‘government work’. Bureaucracy is frustrating and inefficient on a good day.

I find it equally if not more insane to put healthcare insurance in a capitalist framework, where there are shareholders and a board involved whose goal is to make money out of the equation. To me, that is a conflict of interest, and I’ll take bureaucracy over that.

I might be the only one, but I prefee high inventive capitalism with a strong socialized underpinning, and keep it separate from hospitals and prisons for starters.,

[burrrton]

I find it equally if not more insane to put healthcare insurance in a capitalist framework, where there are shareholders and a board involved whose goal is to make money out of the equation. To me, that is a conflict of interest, and I’ll take bureaucracy over that.

Translation: I-5 would rather get his healthcare at the DMV over Kadlec Clinic, RD.

[I-5]

Burrrton, actually, I did some research, and in Canada, healthcare providers are considered private, who bill the government hence ‘single payer’. Pretty cool, huh!

Also, Canadian DMV are MUCH nicer (and usually much prettier) than the surly ones I encountered in Seattle. Not sure why, but it rocks!

[I-5]

I love the ad hominem attacks instead of explaining why Americans resort to GoFundMe (a phenomenon I’ve never seen in other countries), or why a capitalist system is good for your health insurance. They are there to make money first, second, and third. You trust them?! That’s insane.

[c_hawkbob]

I love the ad hominem attacks instead of explaining why Americans resort to GoFundMe (a phenomenon I’ve never seen in other countries), or why a capitalist system is good for your health insurance. They are there to make money first, second, and third. You trust them?! That’s insane.

I agree 100%. It's as insane as a for profit prison system.

[burrrton]

This shouldn't have to be explained, but the pursuit of profit requires those pursuing it to find a mutually beneficial transaction with those from whom they hope to collect $$.

This doesn't mean there are never bad outcomes, but bad outcomes don't vanish if you move from private insurers to the government. You just lose any chance of recourse because you don't have any choice in who you give your $$ to.

or why a capitalist system is good for your health insurance.

I present to you as proof the healthcare we receive in this country.

You're welcome (and I have no idea why someone created a GoFundMe- I don't know anyone who ever has, but I imagine it has something to do with it being an easy way to get a lot of money quick).