Presidential power

[burrrton]

There's a whole lot more there than 3 cells when the first heart beat starts. I would prefer it at conception but we should be able to agree that if life ends when the heartbeat stops then it most certainly begins when the heartbeat starts.

True, but that's all that's there (well, less, by one cell ) at conception.

Beyond that, it's a difficult conversation that both sides seem to think can be reduced to absolutes. I'm just willing to admit I'm not sure, argue that we need to find a reasonable compromise, and accept that that compromise is forever going to make some group squeamish (maybe rightfully, maybe not).

[idhawkman]

True, but that's all that's there (well, less, by one cell ) at conception.

Beyond that, it's a difficult conversation that both sides seem to think can be reduced to absolutes. I'm just willing to admit I'm not sure, argue that we need to find a reasonable compromise, and accept that that compromise is forever going to make some group squeamish (maybe rightfully, maybe not).

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a heartbeat until 2-3 months in.

[burrrton]

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a heartbeat until 2-3 months in.

I'm with ya- I just meant to say I know there's "a whole lot more there" in the time between the egg splitting and birth. Where the cutoff point should be I can't say with any confidence.

I think that's why both parties relish it as a wedge issue.

[RiverDog]

I could be wrong but I don't think there is a heartbeat until 2-3 months in.

It's earlier than 2-3 months:

A fetal heartbeat may first be detected by a vaginal ultrasound as early as 5 1/2 to 6 weeks after gestation. That’s when a fetal pole, the first visible sign of a developing embryo, can sometimes be seen. But between 6 1/2 to 7 weeks after gestation, a heartbeat can be better assessed.

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregn ... -heartbeat

[RiverDog]

There's a whole lot more there than 3 cells when the first heart beat starts. I would prefer it at conception but we should be able to agree that if life ends when the heartbeat stops then it most certainly begins when the heartbeat starts.

Life ends when the heartbeat stops? You can go into cardiac arrest for several minutes before life ends. As a matter of fact, you don't even need your heart in order to continue life. That's not a good standard for determining the end of life, nor should it be used as a standard for the beginning of life.

[burrrton]

That's not a good standard for determining the end of life, nor should it be used as a standard for the beginning of life.

Agree, but I don't even like using the term "beginning of life" as the yardstick.

A 3-cell zygote is scientifically a human life- it's human, and it's alive (and growing).

The question is when the law against extinguishing that life should kick in.

Some people argue (as IDA does) that it should kick in when the egg splits. I don't think that's very defensible on the sniff test, though- nobody is going to call that "murder". There is nothing there that we would associate with a sentient being (feeling and avoiding pain, etc?).

However, those that argue it shouldn't kick in until the child is born (the "magic birth canal" argument) are on even flimsier ground, both scientifically and morally. There is no argument an 8.5 month fetus isn't a "person" (or whatever term you choose). There is literally no distinction that can be made between it and a newborn besides the slap on the ass.

[RiverDog]

That's not a good standard for determining the end of life, nor should it be used as a standard for the beginning of life.

Agree, but I don't even like using the term "beginning of life" as the yardstick.

A 3-cell zygote is scientifically a human life- it's human, and it's alive (and growing).

The question is when the law against extinguishing that life should kick in.

Some people argue (as IDA does) that it should kick in when the egg splits. I don't think that's very defensible on the sniff test, though- nobody is going to call that "murder". There is nothing there that we would associate with a sentient being (feeling and avoiding pain, etc?).

However, those that argue it shouldn't kick in until the child is born (the "magic birth canal" argument) are on even flimsier ground, both scientifically and morally. There is no argument an 8.5 month fetus isn't a "person" (or whatever term you choose). There is literally no distinction that can be made between it and a newborn besides the slap on the ass.

I agree with all of that, including my use of the term "beginning of life". I was only doing so to keep the discussion I was having with Idahawk on the same wave length.

[idhawkman]

Life ends when the heartbeat stops? You can go into cardiac arrest for several minutes before life ends. As a matter of fact, you don't even need your heart in order to continue life. That's not a good standard for determining the end of life, nor should it be used as a standard for the beginning of life.

Doctors call time of death when they can't establish a heartbeat. On scene's, first responders check for a heartbeat first to see if there is "LIFE". Your heart can stop momentarily and extraordinary means must be taken to "RESUSCITATE" the victim/patient. No extraordinary measures are needed for a heart to start beating in a womb. During ultrasounds, if the doctor can't find a heartbeat the fetus is claimed to be dormant or dead and a D and C is performed.

Most certainly, you can define life as a heartbeat.

[RiverDog]

Life ends when the heartbeat stops? You can go into cardiac arrest for several minutes before life ends. As a matter of fact, you don't even need your heart in order to continue life. That's not a good standard for determining the end of life, nor should it be used as a standard for the beginning of life.

Doctors call time of death when they can't establish a heartbeat. On scene's, first responders check for a heartbeat first to see if there is "LIFE". Your heart can stop momentarily and extraordinary means must be taken to "RESUSCITATE" the victim/patient. No extraordinary measures are needed for a heart to start beating in a womb. During ultrasounds, if the doctor can't find a heartbeat the fetus is claimed to be dormant or dead and a D and C is performed.

Most certainly, you can define life as a heartbeat.

The reason EMT's and doctors use a heartbeat to determine "life" is that it is easily detectable, not that it's the ultimate standard. A more accurate way would be brain wave activity. A person can live for a short period of time, up to 5-6 minutes, w/o a heart beat. All it does is pump blood and provide oxygen to the other organs. People have lived months without their hearts as the same function can be provided by a machine.

But regardless, if they were to use your standard for "life" in abortion laws, it would essentially outlaw the procedure entirely as a heart beat can be detected almost as early as it takes a woman to find out that she's pregnant.

[idhawkman]

The reason EMT's and doctors use a heartbeat to determine "life" is that it is easily detectable, not that it's the ultimate standard. A more accurate way would be brain wave activity. A person can live for a short period of time, up to 5-6 minutes, w/o a heart beat. All it does is pump blood and provide oxygen to the other organs. People have lived months without their hearts as the same function can be provided by a machine.

But regardless, if they were to use your standard for "life" in abortion laws, it would essentially outlaw the procedure entirely as a heart beat can be detected almost as early as it takes a woman to find out that she's pregnant.

I don't think I've ever seen a machine keeping a fetus alive in a mother. I also don't know of a machine being employed for other than heroic measures. Again, the fetus doesn't require any heroic measures to beat or stop beating and there's nothing that can be done if it does stop beating. They don't have infant paddles to stick into the mother and try and restart the fetus' heart. We are talking natural death and life here. When does life start and when does it end. On their own, it ends (even in your example of brain activity) when the heart stops or starts. Yes, there is oxygen left in the brain to survive up to 4-6 minutes but then the brain cells start to die and after 10 minutes of no oxygen, the organs cease. So maybe up to 10 minutes after the heart starts beating would be enough leeway to satisfy even your definition of when life starts or stops.

[RiverDog]

The reason EMT's and doctors use a heartbeat to determine "life" is that it is easily detectable, not that it's the ultimate standard. A more accurate way would be brain wave activity. A person can live for a short period of time, up to 5-6 minutes, w/o a heart beat. All it does is pump blood and provide oxygen to the other organs. People have lived months without their hearts as the same function can be provided by a machine.

But regardless, if they were to use your standard for "life" in abortion laws, it would essentially outlaw the procedure entirely as a heart beat can be detected almost as early as it takes a woman to find out that she's pregnant.

I don't think I've ever seen a machine keeping a fetus alive in a mother. I also don't know of a machine being employed for other than heroic measures. Again, the fetus doesn't require any heroic measures to beat or stop beating and there's nothing that can be done if it does stop beating. They don't have infant paddles to stick into the mother and try and restart the fetus' heart. We are talking natural death and life here. When does life start and when does it end. On their own, it ends (even in your example of brain activity) when the heart stops or starts. Yes, there is oxygen left in the brain to survive up to 4-6 minutes but then the brain cells start to die and after 10 minutes of no oxygen, the organs cease. So maybe up to 10 minutes after the heart starts beating would be enough leeway to satisfy even your definition of when life starts or stops.

It's not "my definition". As I mentioned to burrton, I was simply repeating your usage of the term "end of life" to correspond with how you were using it in order to respond to your comments.

What I said was that using a heart beat is not a good method to determine when life begins and/or ends. I also said that a more accurate method, at least for determining the end of life, is the lack of brain wave activity, but I'm not necessarily advocating that measure, either. I honestly don't know how to define the beginning of life, only that using a heartbeat is not a good means for attempting to do so.

[idhawkman]

It's not "my definition". As I mentioned to burrton, I was simply repeating your usage of the term "end of life" to correspond with how you were using it in order to respond to your comments.

What I said was that using a heart beat is not a good method to determine when life begins and/or ends. I also said that a more accurate method, at least for determining the end of life, is the lack of brain wave activity, but I'm not necessarily advocating that measure, either. I honestly don't know how to define the beginning of life, only that using a heartbeat is not a good means for attempting to do so.

Ok. I was just trying to point out that using the machines to keep someone alive is not equatable to an infant in that you can't use a machine to keep a baby alive in the womb or to have them live sooner. So that makes it that we have to use natural life and death definitions if we want to make that the point life begins/ends.

I get your point though about the "essence" of a being being brain activity but wouldn't that relegate the debate to admitting there is a soul? I think that would result on a split along religious lines though.

[RiverDog]

It's not "my definition". As I mentioned to burrton, I was simply repeating your usage of the term "end of life" to correspond with how you were using it in order to respond to your comments.

What I said was that using a heart beat is not a good method to determine when life begins and/or ends. I also said that a more accurate method, at least for determining the end of life, is the lack of brain wave activity, but I'm not necessarily advocating that measure, either. I honestly don't know how to define the beginning of life, only that using a heartbeat is not a good means for attempting to do so.

Ok. I was just trying to point out that using the machines to keep someone alive is not equatable to an infant in that you can't use a machine to keep a baby alive in the womb or to have them live sooner. So that makes it that we have to use natural life and death definitions if we want to make that the point life begins/ends.

"We" weren't trying to make a point as to where life begins and ends. You were the one that claimed to have that all figured out. I have admitted that I don't know exactly where that point begins or ends, nor do I want to debate the issue as it can go off on all sorts of different tangents, people with near death or out of body experiences, etc.

I get your point though about the "essence" of a being being brain activity but wouldn't that relegate the debate to admitting there is a soul? I think that would result on a split along religious lines though.

Once again, I did not say that cession of brain wave activity was necessarily the end post of life. I simply said that it was more accurate than the absence of a pulse and that the major reason why EMT's/Dr.'s use a heartbeat for guidance is that it's easily observed.

I'm not going down this "when does life begin" rabbit hole with you. My position on abortion is that there must be a reasonable amount of time afforded to a pregnant woman so that she can consider her options and make a rational, informed decision utilizing whatever resources her, her family, and/or partner wish to reference. I'm talking in terms of months after conception, not days or weeks. I don't want them saying to themselves after they've confirm their pregnancy "OMG, I only have a week to decide if I want an abortion, I'd better do it now before it's too late!

[idhawkman]

I'm not going down this "when does life begin" rabbit hole with you.

I can see why since you can't seem to figure out when life ends. No heartbeat, no brain activity but you're not sure yet. Maybe when the body starts to bloat and stink it can finally be declared DEAD!