Impeach yes or no and why ?

[RiverDog]

Excellent! Great theatre there, Idahawk! Let's try another one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 425173001/

Donald Trump said the UK is America’s largest trading partner. It ranks 5th.

At a business roundtable on his visit to the United Kingdom, President Donald Trump said there was a great opportunity to expand the trading relationship between the two nations.

"We are your largest partner," Trump said June 4. "You’re our largest partner. A lot of people don’t know that. I was surprised. I made that statement yesterday, and a lot of people said, ‘Gee, I didn’t know that.’ But that’s the way it is."

Trump was right that the United States is Britain’s biggest trade partner, according to British government data. But he’s very wrong that the United Kingdom is America’s largest trading partner.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... ding-part/

Pass the popcorn!

You really have no idea how to blow smoke up someone's arse when talking with them, do you? Maybe we should hold impeachment proceedings after a 2 year probe over who our largest trading partner is and see if they have something on Trump for him to say that.... (queue twilight zone music....)

Completely irrelevant remark, at least as it applies to me. I've already expressed my opinion on the impeachment question, that I have yet to see concrete evidence of an impeachable crime, and even if I did see sufficient evidence, I will not support impeachment proceedings unless there's sufficient support in the Senate to convict.

My point in these last few posts are how many false or misleading statements Trump makes on a daily basis and how you either rationalize them or ignore them completely. You're swimming in that big Egyptian river.

[idhawkman]

Completely irrelevant remark, at least as it applies to me. I've already expressed my opinion on the impeachment question, that I have yet to see concrete evidence of an impeachable crime, and even if I did see sufficient evidence, I will not support impeachment proceedings unless there's sufficient support in the Senate to convict.

My point in these last few posts are how many false or misleading statements Trump makes on a daily basis and how you either rationalize them or ignore them completely. You're swimming in that big Egyptian river.

It is very applicable to you. You see conspiracy on everything. I did not mention impeachment in my remark at all. I merely suggested that you may prefer a 2 year investigation and another special counsel to go over his remarks about UK and their status as a trading partner. You see malice in those remarks to bring them up.

[I-5]

ID calling Riv out for seeing conspiracy in everything while believe in the deep state....

Riv, if you don't think Trump can be called a traitor (yet), do you believe a quid pro quo is not possible for foreign dirt he may try to get?

[idhawkman]

ID calling Riv out for seeing conspiracy in everything while believe in the deep state....

Riv, if you don't think Trump can be called a traitor (yet), do you believe a quid pro quo is not possible for foreign dirt he may try to get?

Unfortunately, the deep state has been proved already and more is still coming out about it.

[Aseahawkfan]

First, let's figure out if receiving foreign dirt is illegal. Because as near as I can tell Hilary Clinton and the F.B.I. used foreign dirt to attack and investigate Trump. If Trump receiving foreign dirt is a traitorous crime, is what Hilary and the F.B.I. did with the Steele Dossier a crime?

I would really like to know if receiving foreign dirt is a crime. I think politicians have been receiving foreign dirt and support in elections for ages. If going after Trump makes it so everyone in the government is on watch for this type of behavior, then I'm all for it. Politicians like the Bush's and Clinton's are so tied up in foreign affairs that I'd love to see exactly what the laws are on foreign aid in election and how these folks walk that fine line of legality. If so, then Trump and Hilary should both be prosecuted to put both parties on notice that this is not tolerable.

[I-5]

The deep state has been proven, so there is no more controversy or arguments remaining, right?

[Aseahawkfan]

So the legal experts are saying accepting information counts is a thing of value from a foreign government which is illegal. I'm wondering how did Hilary get away with using the Steele Dossier as well as the F.B.I.? So is it a loophole kind of thing that a person no longer affiliated with the foreign government providing information without stating it was directly obtained from a foreign government source allowed? What kind of finagling is allowed I'm left to wonder. Is this a friend of a friend of a friend loophole.

I know people use us for election information as America has tampered with elections worldwide as intelligence operations for ages. The American government has rigged and/or influenced more foreign elections than any criminal organization or foreign government in recent history. We maintain contacts with nearly every foreign government in the world and our politicians constantly maintain friendships with foreign powers as well as our businessmen and other powerful figures in society. Then there is the relationship of our military to foreign governments. We're very intertwined.

So I wonder where the line is drawn and how many walk it. I think I would like to see constant investigations into our politicians foreign relations. That might stop some of this BS. Then again it might be the pot calling the kettle black given how much we interfere in foreign elections.

I wonder if Trump is talking too much now and maybe pissing of the wrong people.

[RiverDog]

Riv, if you don't think Trump can be called a traitor (yet), do you believe a quid pro quo is not possible for foreign dirt he may try to get?

Of course, it's possible, perhaps even possible, that he's doing this in order to seek some sort of political advantage. I am by no means approving of Trump's behavior, I'm simply saying that I haven't seen any obvious laws being broken or national security interests being compromised to where calling him a "traitor" can be justified.

If Trump were encouraging a foreign entity to break US or international laws in the acquisition of the "dirt" or in the process, compromise some sort of national security resource, then I'd consider him guilty of a crime as well. Whether employing the "traitor" word may or may not be applicable, depending if it enhanced the position of, say the Russian government, or compromised our own.

Although I think what Trump is doing by encouraging others, whether they be foreign or not, to go out and dig up "dirt" on his political opponents is deplorable, I'm not convinced that it's illegal, at least not yet.

[RiverDog]

So I wonder where the line is drawn and how many walk it. I think I would like to see constant investigations into our politicians foreign relations. That might stop some of this BS. Then again it might be the pot calling the kettle black given how much we interfere in foreign elections.

I wonder if Trump is talking too much now and maybe pissing of the wrong people.

I agree with this statement. Back in the 50's and 60's when we were in competition with the Soviets when the spread of communism was considered the #1 threat to US security, our government was not bashful in interfering in the formation of governments in developing countries, particularly in southeast Asia and central and South America. The Bay of Pigs in 1961 is perhaps the most blatant example, backing the Shaw of Iran is another as is Reagan's Iran Contra scandal. If a foreign government is friendly to our government, we'll help them out with their efforts to maintain power.

This could be one of those people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks moments for Trump. I am convinced that there's many times more dirt that exists on Trump than there is on his opponents as he hasn't been vetted nearly as well some of these career politicians like Biden, Warren, Sanders, et al.

But I guess he figures that it doesn't matter to his base how or what kind of dirt they dig up on him, that they'll still support him, so why not throw a piece of meat into the dog fight of 20 some Democratic candidates for POTUS and watch them maul each other.

[c_hawkbob]

This morning on NBC they said pretty unequivocally that it is illegal to accept or to seek anything of value (information has value) from a foreign entity in relation to an election. Pretty black and white if you ask me.

[RiverDog]

This morning on NBC they said pretty unequivocally that it is illegal to accept or to seek anything of value (information has value) from a foreign entity in relation to an election. Pretty black and white if you ask me.

Of course, Trump left himself an out by saying "maybe I'd go to the FBI". But he did openly encourage foreign governments to influence the election. At this point, IMO Trump thinks he's invincible, that no one can touch him no matter what he says or does.

[idhawkman]

Ridiculous. Trump has not invited anyone to do anything. He was asked a hypothetical question and he answered it honestly as any politician would do.

He was not asked specifically about Russia. He was asked if a foreign government told him they have information on his opponent would he accept it? The media is agasped by this. "he should turn it over to the FBI" they say. Well what is he going to turn over to the FBI if he doesn't know what it is? It could be publicly available information. It could be that they really wear size 11 shoes and not 11.5. That's the first thing.

Second, who would he turn the information over to? If this happened in 2016, he would be turning it over to an FBI director who thought he "could get away with it" when interviewing his designated national security advisor. A deputy FBI director who is under criminal investigation for leaking and lying about investigating Trump, a senior investigator who has been fired for bias against this president an attorney who was demoted and left because she was bias against the president, lead counsel of the FBI who is the subject of numerous investigations into FISA abuse and other matters against this president. (I-5, I think you can see that there is definitely a deep state there). Maybe the DOJ but they were unmasking US citizens at a rate unheard of before and who meets secretly with the opponent to his candidacy on a tarmac. Kind of a ridiculous scenario isn't it?

Unfortunately, the only way to get out of the distrust of the deep state is to drain the swamp which is what Barr is doing.

[RiverDog]

Ridiculous. Trump has not invited anyone to do anything. He was asked a hypothetical question and he answered it honestly as any politician would do.

He was not asked specifically about Russia. He was asked if a foreign government told him they have information on his opponent would he accept it? The media is agasped by this. "he should turn it over to the FBI" they say. Well what is he going to turn over to the FBI if he doesn't know what it is? It could be publicly available information. It could be that they really wear size 11 shoes and not 11.5.

I actually agree with Idahawk on this one. It was an off the cuff remark to a question being posed by a reporter. He was not officially on the record, never issued any instructions to his subordinates, never made a plea to foreign entities, he just said that he'd "want to hear it".

Additionally, he's since back peddled, changing is original statement from "I might give it to the FBI" to "of course I'd give it to the FBI". It's another example how Trump just "wings it" in his interviews and statements and more times than not doesn't know what he's talking about.

[idhawkman]

I actually agree with Idahawk on this one.

Awe, c'mon Riv. You're gonna make me look like snoopy doing the happy dance all weekend long.

It was an off the cuff remark to a question being posed by a reporter. He was not officially on the record, never issued any instructions to his subordinates, never made a plea to foreign entities, he just said that he'd "want to hear it".

Additionally, he's since back peddled, changing is original statement from "I might give it to the FBI" to "of course I'd give it to the FBI". It's another example how Trump just "wings it" in his interviews and statements and more times than not doesn't know what he's talking about.

I don't agree with this though. He said "I'd do both" Then he said, I'd want to see it and if it is bad/wrong (can't remember the actual word he said but if I don't put this disclaimer in here, we'll go down a rabbit hole for a while on the actual word he used) then he'd turn it over.

I think his original statement is totally right. You can't turn anything over to the FBI if you don't know what it is, so you first have to hear what they want to share. If nothing else, the 4 investigations into Trump has shown that he does not collude with foreigners. All four of them have found NO collusion whatsoever. If you beleive some reporters and River, he can't even collude with his own team let alone a foreign government.

[Hawktawk]

So the legal experts are saying accepting information counts is a thing of value from a foreign government which is illegal. I'm wondering how did Hilary get away with using the Steele Dossier as well as the F.B.I.? So is it a loophole kind of thing that a person no longer affiliated with the foreign government providing information without stating it was directly obtained from a foreign government source allowed? What kind of finagling is allowed I'm left to wonder. Is this a friend of a friend of a friend loophole.

I know people use us for election information as America has tampered with elections worldwide as intelligence operations for ages. The American government has rigged and/or influenced more foreign elections than any criminal organization or foreign government in recent history. We maintain contacts with nearly every foreign government in the world and our politicians constantly maintain friendships with foreign powers as well as our businessmen and other powerful figures in society. Then there is the relationship of our military to foreign governments. We're very intertwined.

So I wonder where the line is drawn and how many walk it. I think I would like to see constant investigations into our politicians foreign relations. That might stop some of this BS. Then again it might be the pot calling the kettle black given how much we interfere in foreign elections.

I wonder if Trump is talking too much now and maybe pissing of the wrong people.

The Steele dossier is not remotely comparable to what Trump did with Russia in 2016. Don Jr received an E mail from Rob Goldstone promising dirt on Hillary as part of the "crown Prince of Russia's effort to help DT". He said "I love it , especially later in the fall".He concealed it from authorities until the NYT broke the story about its existence and Trump wrote a false narrative aboard AF1 saying it was about adoption. Jr was with the senate committee several days just this week cleaning up his perjurous testimony regarding the meeting and his involvement with TT Moscow.

Trump repeatedly praised and encouraged Russian hacking efforts" Russia if you're listening I hope you can find the 30k missing E mails"(The Mueller report states the Russian Military espionage people hacked it that very day) He repeatedly praised Wikileaks"I love wikileaks" Wikileaks released Podestas E mails mere hours after the pussy grabber tape surfaced. Mueller uncovered 10 instances where Trump committed obstruction or at least tried to obstruct an investigation into our greatest geopolitical foe doing all in their power to install their patsy.

The Steele dossier was a product of an american investigative agency that was originally hired by a lawyer for a #nevertrump# republican group. At a certain point the DNC also deployed this group who used a highly respected British spy to investigate Trumps dealings in the eastern bloc. When he discovered evidence of collusion and criminal wrongdoing, Kompromat in the form of corrupt financial entanglements and the infamous water sports tape(that I'm sure exists) HE WENT TO THE CONGRESS AND THE FBI.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it Asea but what you said about this being a comparable situation is exactly the talking points the soulless republicans have seized on after their initial weak condemnations to blunt the devastating comments Trump made about being willing to accept foreign interference in another election, a criminal act under our election laws. The answer was a no brainier and either crazy man just couldn't help himself or it was a more sinister invitation to Russia, NK, Saudi Arabia, every sleazy despot on the planet to help elect him again in 2020. This man has so dumbed down the normalcy, the dignity and respect for Americas sovereignty in this administration its staggering. Hes a treasonous POS. We have become the frog in the boiling water to accept ANY OF THIS. As Biden said hes an existential threat to america.

[RiverDog]

The Steele dossier is not remotely comparable to what Trump did with Russia in 2016. Don Jr received an E mail from Rob Goldstone promising dirt on Hillary as part of the "crown Prince of Russia's effort to help DT". He said "I love it , especially later in the fall".He concealed it from authorities until the NYT broke the story about its existence and Trump wrote a false narrative aboard AF1 saying it was about adoption. Jr was with the senate committee several days just this week cleaning up his perjurous testimony regarding the meeting and his involvement with TT Moscow.

Trump repeatedly praised and encouraged Russian hacking efforts" Russia if you're listening I hope you can find the 30k missing E mails"(The Mueller report states the Russian Military espionage people hacked it that very day) He repeatedly praised Wikileaks"I love wikileaks" Wikileaks released Podestas E mails mere hours after the pussy grabber tape surfaced. Mueller uncovered 10 instances where Trump committed obstruction or at least tried to obstruct an investigation into our greatest geopolitical foe doing all in their power to install their patsy.

The Steele dossier was a product of an american investigative agency that was originally hired by a lawyer for a #nevertrump# republican group. At a certain point the DNC also deployed this group who used a highly respected British spy to investigate Trumps dealings in the eastern bloc. When he discovered evidence of collusion and criminal wrongdoing, Kompromat in the form of corrupt financial entanglements and the infamous water sports tape(that I'm sure exists) HE WENT TO THE CONGRESS AND THE FBI.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it Asea but what you said about this being a comparable situation is exactly the talking points the soulless republicans have seized on after their initial weak condemnations to blunt the devastating comments Trump made about being willing to accept foreign interference in another election, a criminal act under our election laws. The answer was a no brainier and either crazy man just couldn't help himself or it was a more sinister invitation to Russia, NK, Saudi Arabia, every sleazy despot on the planet to help elect him again in 2020. This man has so dumbed down the normalcy, the dignity and respect for Americas sovereignty in this administration its staggering. Hes a treasonous POS. We have become the frog in the boiling water to accept ANY OF THIS. As Biden said hes an existential threat to america.

Nice post Hawktalk! Not a single orange haired witch or Trumptards in the entire post, although there was a crazy man and a POS.

Seriously, those were very well thought out remarks vs. some of the wild eyed rants you've gone on in the past, but I do wish you'd add a few links to support the information you shared.

[Hawktawk]

Thanks for the props RD. I don’t come in here to change any minds but just to tell the truth as I perceive it and to vent. It’s my only social media outlet where I do so as I use my other main forum FB for fun stuff, family, cool cars , good bars and Resturant’s, vacations etc. I know my verbiage is over the top but honestly it fits the man and the situation. The trumptard stuff wasn’t to insult anyone’s intelligence but just to describe how blind they are to accept this as normal behavior from our president and commander in Chief. I’ll try to work on the new hawktawk . Have a great day RD.

[I-5]

Ironically, a football forum (HawkShack) is the only place where I feel comfortable talking politics...because of the lack of ad hominem attacks. We don't always stay on point and there are still too many over generalizations (myself included), but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm sincerely trying to understand how anyone can be supportive of Trump AND be blind to his failings. I supported Obama, but my support for him never blind me to his failings. I would expect the same from any sincere person who supports Trump.

[RiverDog]

Thanks for the props RD. I don’t come in here to change any minds but just to tell the truth as I perceive it and to vent. It’s my only social media outlet where I do so as I use my other main forum FB for fun stuff, family, cool cars , good bars and Resturant’s, vacations etc. I know my verbiage is over the top but honestly it fits the man and the situation. The trumptard stuff wasn’t to insult anyone’s intelligence but just to describe how blind they are to accept this as normal behavior from our president and commander in Chief. I’ll try to work on the new hawktawk . Have a great day RD.

Ironically, a football forum (HawkShack) is the only place where I feel comfortable talking politics...because of the lack of ad hominem attacks. We don't always stay on point and there are still too many over generalizations (myself included), but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm sincerely trying to understand how anyone can be supportive of Trump AND be blind to his failings. I supported Obama, but my support for him never blind me to his failings. I would expect the same from any sincere person who supports Trump.

I like discussing politics here, too. Idahawk does frustrates me and there are times I have to back away, but I try my best to remain objective and hear both points of view. I wish that Cbob would contribute more as he's on the left side of the spectrum and the most active participants in here are conservatives, including myself, plus he's one of the more articulate posters on the entire board.

I have to be in the right mood to respond to some posters, but when I see that one of you two have made a post, I immediately pop in to see what you've said. And I-5, there was a subject where you did change my mind, although it wasn't a political topic, rather the 737 Max issue.

[Aseahawkfan]

The Steele dossier is not remotely comparable to what Trump did with Russia in 2016. Don Jr received an E mail from Rob Goldstone promising dirt on Hillary as part of the "crown Prince of Russia's effort to help DT". He said "I love it , especially later in the fall".He concealed it from authorities until the NYT broke the story about its existence and Trump wrote a false narrative aboard AF1 saying it was about adoption. Jr was with the senate committee several days just this week cleaning up his perjurous testimony regarding the meeting and his involvement with TT Moscow.

Trump repeatedly praised and encouraged Russian hacking efforts" Russia if you're listening I hope you can find the 30k missing E mails"(The Mueller report states the Russian Military espionage people hacked it that very day) He repeatedly praised Wikileaks"I love wikileaks" Wikileaks released Podestas E mails mere hours after the pussy grabber tape surfaced. Mueller uncovered 10 instances where Trump committed obstruction or at least tried to obstruct an investigation into our greatest geopolitical foe doing all in their power to install their patsy.

The Steele dossier was a product of an american investigative agency that was originally hired by a lawyer for a #nevertrump# republican group. At a certain point the DNC also deployed this group who used a highly respected British spy to investigate Trumps dealings in the eastern bloc. When he discovered evidence of collusion and criminal wrongdoing, Kompromat in the form of corrupt financial entanglements and the infamous water sports tape(that I'm sure exists) HE WENT TO THE CONGRESS AND THE FBI.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it Asea but what you said about this being a comparable situation is exactly the talking points the soulless republicans have seized on after their initial weak condemnations to blunt the devastating comments Trump made about being willing to accept foreign interference in another election, a criminal act under our election laws. The answer was a no brainier and either crazy man just couldn't help himself or it was a more sinister invitation to Russia, NK, Saudi Arabia, every sleazy despot on the planet to help elect him again in 2020. This man has so dumbed down the normalcy, the dignity and respect for Americas sovereignty in this administration its staggering. Hes a treasonous POS. We have become the frog in the boiling water to accept ANY OF THIS. As Biden said hes an existential threat to america.

This is why I can't take you seriously. You're so biased that you can't admit when two wrongs have occurred and have been occurring for some time. Obtaining dirt from foreign sources to use in our elections has been an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed across the board for all parties. Just because Trump is the idiot that is speaking out about it doesn't make him worse than the others. Either you want our government fixed or you just want Trump out so you can go back to sleep and ignore all the problems that were there before him and will continue after he is gone. All Trump is doing is exposing Washington D.C. He did not create the problems.

[c_hawkbob]

I wish that Cbob would contribute more as he's on the left side of the spectrum and the most active participants in here are conservatives, including myself, plus he's one of the more articulate posters on the entire board.

To my mind to participate more would be to repeat myself more. If I feel as though I've already made my opinion known on a specific issue I don't need to reiterate it because the conversation has circled back to the same point for the however many'th time. If something new arises I usually speak up.

I do appreciate the sentiment though, thank you.

[Aseahawkfan]

This morning on NBC they said pretty unequivocally that it is illegal to accept or to seek anything of value (information has value) from a foreign entity in relation to an election. Pretty black and white if you ask me.

It is illegal, but we know the politicians do it. We literally have evidence that Trump's campaign was contacted by foreign reps and Hilary was using a dossier of information generated by foreign agents. So both political parties were contacted and possibly worked with operatives to obtain information from foreign sources. We know that foreign folks donate to politicians by attending things like fundraisers and the like. So the question should be less focused on just Trump and more focused how do we stop our political parties from doing this? How do we get these dirty folks we elect to be honest?

[Hawktawk]

This is why I can't take you seriously. You're so biased that you can't admit when two wrongs have occurred and have been occurring for some time. Obtaining dirt from foreign sources to use in our elections has been an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed across the board for all parties. Just because Trump is the idiot that is speaking out about it doesn't make him worse than the others. Either you want our government fixed or you just want Trump out so you can go back to sleep and ignore all the problems that were there before him and will continue after he is gone. All Trump is doing is exposing Washington D.C. He did not create the problems.

I said there is no comparison between these two things whatsoever. Russia actually interfered in our elections using actual Russian military intelligence officers, hackers etc, bots on facebook and twitter, actually arranging campaign rallies, possible illegal contributions funneled through the NRA.Many intelligence officials and politicians of both parties including UN ambassador Nikki Haley called it an "act of war"

Steele investigated eastern bloc ties of a corrupt businessman with a 30 year history of shady dealings in the region, totally fair game at the behest of first AMERICAN REPUBLICANS, then DEMOCRATS, AND EVENTUALLY THE FBI AND BOB MUELLER. He took his findings to the FBI!!!!

The Steele dossier was never used during the election but was only made known to Trump by the FBI after he had won with the help of the most massive successful campaign of FOREIGN influence in the history of the planet.

You're smart enough you should be able to draw the clear distinction rather than parrot the talking points of Trumps shameless republican defenders in the house and senate and much but not even all of Fox news. Chump is still babbling on about it 3 days later trying to clean it up he knows it was such a gaffe, on a level with the Helsinki debacle.

I've always agreed dirty tricks have happened for a long time on both sides but even the Watergate break in was a totally domestic all American affair trying to dig up dirt by exposing the Psychiatric records of I believe the democratic VP candidate.

As for Trump exposing Washington its far beyond that. Hes a creation of the sleaze, the insatiable quest for power that leads formerly respectable men like Mitch McConnell, Rudy Guliani and especially the soulless Lindsay Graham to defend his utterly indefensible actions. He and they have created a whole new level of problems never seen in our history....

[RiverDog]

To my mind to participate more would be to repeat myself more. If I feel as though I've already made my opinion known on a specific issue I don't need to reiterate it because the conversation has circled back to the same point for the however many'th time. If something new arises I usually speak up.

I do appreciate the sentiment though, thank you.

IMO the discussions are a little more dynamic than you're giving them credit for, sometimes too dynamic as they quite frequently go off on a completely different topic.

But whatever your reasons for moderating your comments and even though we can get on each other's nerves, I wish you would contribute more.

[RiverDog]

I've always agreed dirty tricks have happened for a long time on both sides but even the Watergate break in was a totally domestic all American affair trying to dig up dirt by exposing the Psychiatric records of I believe the democratic VP candidate.

I don't want to appear as a smart Alec, but I need to correct a few things. You are correct that Watergate was pretty much a domestic operation with no international connections. But just to clear up some of the facts.

The break in you are referring to was of the office of the psychiatrist for a former Pentagon employee named Daniel Ellsberg, who had made public a very uncomplimentary report, ie the "Pentagon Papers", that was politically embarrassing to both Richard Nixon and his predecessor, LBJ. The break-in was an attempt to get some dirt on Ellsberg so as to discredit him.

Although the operation to break into Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office was run by essentially the same people in Nixon's White House, ie the "Plumbers" that were created to stop leaks, it was NOT the infamous Watergate break-in. That "3rd rate burglary" was of the Democratic National Committee's headquarters in the Watergate complex.

Sorry if I appear to be a know-it-all, but Watergate was of particular interest to me back in the day.

[Hawktawk]

Thanks for the clarification RD. I followed it pretty closely as a middle schooler, wrote a poem about it in a humorous vein but after 45 years my 59 year old brain gets it a bit muddled . Regardless I feel like a full court press by Russia to elect an asset as our president and his coddling and denial and the absolute refusal of McConnell to vote on bills to stop this from happening again is the worst most chilling scandal in our political history .

[burrrton]

Regardless I feel like a full court press by Russia to elect an asset as our president...

"Tell Vlad I'll have more flexibility after the election..."

"The 80s called- they want their foreign policy back."

Trump has been infinitely more tough on Russia in everything but rhetoric than your previous POTUS.

...and his coddling and denial and the absolute refusal of McConnell to vote on bills to stop this from happening again...

I must have missed this (honestly).

...is the worst most chilling scandal in our political history .

You need:

1. To step back and take a deep breath
2. Perspective and clarity
3. A history lesson

[Hawktawk]

"Tell Vlad I'll have more flexibility after the election..."

"The 80s called- they want their foreign policy back."

Trump has been infinitely more tough on Russia in everything but rhetoric than your previous POTUS.




You need:

1. To step back and take a deep breath
2. Perspective and clarity
3. A history lesson

I lost my s#it over some of the things Obama did and so did all the republican politicians over the hot mic thing regarding missiles in Europe . The 80s foreign policy line demonstrates how unfortunate it was and is that we are not in Mitt Romney’s second term as I believe things would be infinitely better in many ways for America . Obama was naive. Trump is nefarious and corrupt and hopelessly compromised by blackmail . I’d take Obama back right now. I’m learning my history lesson daily.

You’re a bit off in your characterization of how tough trump has been on Putin. Shortly after his election and in the early months of the unfolding scandal of Russian interference the Congress unanimously!!!! Passed a sweeping sanctions bill. Trump stalled on implementing them for a year then did so kicking and screaming . He expelled some diplomats but then threw a fit saying he had received bad information .


But really sanctions are window dressing. He stood beside Putin in Helsinki after emerging from a one on one 2 hour meeting where interpreters notes were confiscated to say he had “no reason to believe Putin did” interfere in our election .its a mantra he repeats to this day . He allows Putin to operate with impunity in regards to harassment and threats to others in Eastern Europe and even nearly ramming our naval vessels .

A year or so ago Putin held a news conference unveiling the Satan II missile one warhead is capable of taking out Texas . He showed a video of it hitting Mara Lago. Trump said and says nothing critical of this bellicose regime. You see it your way and I see it mine. Trumps a grave danger to our stability and safety.

[idhawkman]

HUGE misfire by the impeach Trump group yesterday when their nationwide Impeach Trump rallies fell flat even in densely populated liberal states. Boston, DC, Portland OR, and LA. all had terrible showings for their impeach Trump rallies.

I think this should be a wake up call to the dems that their voters are more interested in getting stuff done than resistance. Can't say they haven't been warned in congress from this point forward.

[Hawktawk]

HUGE misfire by the impeach Trump group yesterday when their nationwide Impeach Trump rallies fell flat even in densely populated liberal states. Boston, DC, Portland OR, and LA. all had terrible showings for their impeach Trump rallies.

I think this should be a wake up call to the dems that their voters are more interested in getting stuff done than resistance. Can't say they haven't been warned in congress from this point forward.

I didn't hear about any rallies.Maybe on Faux?? Regardless there's a lot of difference between turning up for a rally on a nice summer day and flipping on the tube every day for weeks to see the scum, the swamp creatures that inhabit this administration exposed like a cockroach caught in a flashlight glare.

Polls show impeachment is upside down about 52% against to 42 for right now with 6% unsure but that could change real quick as the facts Trump desperately has tried to keep on lockdown are revealed to the 99% of americans who will never read the report but will watch the movie with fascination. And 70% of democratic voters support it which could depress their turnout if it doesn't happen.I've come to believe Pelosi is blowing it and history will not judge her kindly for letting this sleazeball of epic proportions escape any accountability for his actions.

[RiverDog]

HUGE misfire by the impeach Trump group yesterday when their nationwide Impeach Trump rallies fell flat even in densely populated liberal states. Boston, DC, Portland OR, and LA. all had terrible showings for their impeach Trump rallies.

I think this should be a wake up call to the dems that their voters are more interested in getting stuff done than resistance. Can't say they haven't been warned in congress from this point forward.

I didn't hear about any rallies.Maybe on Faux?? Regardless there's a lot of difference between turning up for a rally on a nice summer day and flipping on the tube every day for weeks to see the scum, the swamp creatures that inhabit this administration exposed like a cockroach caught in a flashlight glare.

It wasn't on Fox either, at least not as a headliner as I have them on my news feed. I also didn't see it on social media, either, and I have tons of friends that are always sharing anti Trump stuff like that. As usual, Idhawk is over stating it. It wasn't talked about a lot to begin with prior to the rallies and isn't being talked about a lot now. But I did see some really funny Trump caricatures when I did a search.

Polls show impeachment is upside down about 52% against to 42 for right now with 6% unsure but that could change real quick as the facts Trump desperately has tried to keep on lockdown are revealed to the 99% of americans who will never read the report but will watch the movie with fascination. And 70% of democratic voters support it which could depress their turnout if it doesn't happen.I've come to believe Pelosi is blowing it and history will not judge her kindly for letting this sleazeball of epic proportions escape any accountability for his actions.

The polls on impeachment are pretty irrelevant at this point IMO. What matters are the opinions of 20 R Senators as that's what it takes to remove him from office. No one on either side of the aisle are going to want to pursue impeachment in an election year. It's in the 4th quarter and Trump's in his victory office as all he has to do is not fumble and he can run out the clock.

[burrrton]

What matters are the opinions of 20 R Senators as that's what it takes to remove him from office.

Yup, and... Never. Happening.

No one on either side of the aisle are going to want to pursue impeachment in an election year.

Yup yup, and whatever you think of Pelosi, she's politically savvy enough to know it's suicide to pursue such things on such weak evidence, and especially at this point in the election cycle.

[Hawktawk]

I understand the senate thing. He would almost certainly not be removed from office. I get that.

But still it is the only remedy available to the congress other than their current strategy of basically conducting a piecemeal impeachment enquiry one subpoena at a time in the face of the most massive display of contempt and obstruction certainly since watergate. Impeachment would open the floodgates on the information Trumps so desperately trying to hide from the american people with the help of a complicit AG.Stephanopoulos interview didn't just catch him inviting foreign powers to help in 2020 but also saw him slamming Don McGann, basically saying he lied under oath to "make himself look like a good lawyer". Trump insisted he had answered questions in writing regarding obstruction ,even becoming angry and calling Stephanopoulos a "little wise guy" for correctly stating that he had not. Having McGann etc on the witness stand is absolutely essential at this point. Its not "case closed" as the reprehensible soulless Mitch McConnell says as long as Trump keeps re litigating the case in the court of public opinion. At least Hope Hicks has now agreed to testify which is significant

I think there's a mass miscalculation on how impeaching this sleazeball would play out to the american people at large. I really dont think it would hurt the Dems a bit at the polls in 2020 and if the case is strong in the house( It would be devastating ) it might create some very interesting situations for vulnerable republican senators up for reelection, sort of a damned if you do damned if you dont much like the Kavanagh spectacle did for Dem Senators in the midterms.

This aint about stains on a blue dress and it aint about a president at 65% in the polls and appealing to voters on both sides of the aisle.Its a guy who cant sniff 50% in a good economy . And having the veneer peeled back on his utter criminal enterprise in and out of office isn't going to elevate this man, especially since his head seems ready to explode right now after his *exoneration* and I could only imagine the daily unhinged tweet rants if he's actually called to account for his crimes.

Pelosi is blowing it. Dems are turning their backs on the people who gave them the biggest midterm sweep in the house since post watergate out of fear for their political futures.Thats what will cost them with their base.

Impeachment is the only legal remedy to punish a sitting president for serious crimes, period. It should be employed regardless of political considerations in this instance. I've come to believe it won't be. It's just another sign of how quickly this country is going down the tubes when this president can basically break the law and continue to do so with complete impunity.

[RiverDog]

I think there's a mass miscalculation on how impeaching this sleazeball would play out to the american people at large. I really dont think it would hurt the Dems a bit at the polls in 2020 and if the case is strong in the house( It would be devastating ) it might create some very interesting situations for vulnerable republican senators up for reelection, sort of a damned if you do damned if you dont much like the Kavanagh spectacle did for Dem Senators in the midterms.

Richard Nixon's popularity during Watergate took an 18 month slide, starting at about 70% after his 2nd inauguration in January of '73 and bottoming out at about 24% before he resigned in August of '74. In contrast, Trump's popularity has remained constant since he took office, hovering between 40 and 50%. The only way that 20 R Senators will give up Trump is if the nation pushes them to do so ala Nixon in '73-'74. We're stuck with the POS until January of 2021.

Impeachment is the only legal remedy to punish a sitting president for serious crimes, period. It should be employed regardless of political considerations in this instance. I've come to believe it won't be. It's just another sign of how quickly this country is going down the tubes when this president can basically break the law and continue to do so with complete impunity.

You're not thinking rationally. You're letting your hatred of Trump over ride your good logic. You've admitted to the reality that he's not going to be removed from office yet you want to impeach him anyway. There are other ways to hold him accountable besides impeachment, and you've articulated several, ie indict him after he leaves office.

[idhawkman]

Yup yup, and whatever you think of Pelosi, she's politically savvy enough to know it's suicide to pursue such things on such weak evidence, and especially at this point in the election cycle.

Not to mention that for the first time, Trump will be able to mount a defense. The Mueller report was one sided, the investigations are one sided and at no point so far has the Trump administration been able to mount a defense against the charges. Even with that, the evidence against him and public opinion is weak. Pelosi knows that as long as they can have the narrative that he did bad things they can hold what little public opinion they have now. "IF" the left wing of their party succeeds in getting an impeachment hearing, then the president can start calling his own witnesses and the truth will then finally come out and that will lose what little support the dems have now. This is also why Pelosi knows Trump wants them to impeach him. So far she's bee smart not to fall into the trap but her left wing crazies may push her into the trap against her will. Moreover, "IF" Trump is found innocent of the charges, the dems will suffer many election cycles going forward from here based on the annomous toward Trump for the last 3 years.

[idhawkman]

I think the Dems are trying to get Trump re-elected. I know this sounds crazy but how do you explain the Dem positions of late?

1. Open borders
2. Late term abortions
3. Green New Deal
4. Socialism
5. School loan forgiveness
6. Medicaid for all
7. Reparations
8. Raise taxes/Wealth Tax
9. VAT tax
10. Renew Iran deal

I mean, how many unpopular issues are they going to run on? Seriously!

[Aseahawkfan]

It is unbelievable what the Dems think Americans prefer. I know very few Americans that support alot of that trash. Dems have let the too far left take them over. Dems seem like the only people they talk to are ivory tower academics or radicalized people that don't have any idea what working folk want or need. Those are not the greatest selling points. If someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren get the nomination with their whacky ideas like prisoners voting or reparations if even Hawktawk will vote for them to oust The Narcissist. It will be like choosing which lunatic that is bad for the country will you cast your vote for.

[RiverDog]

It is unbelievable what the Dems think Americans prefer. I know very few Americans that support alot of that trash. Dems have let the too far left take them over. Dems seem like the only people they talk to are ivory tower academics or radicalized people that don't have any idea what working folk want or need. Those are not the greatest selling points. If someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren get the nomination with their whacky ideas like prisoners voting or reparations if even Hawktawk will vote for them to oust The Narcissist. It will be like choosing which lunatic that is bad for the country will you cast your vote for.

That's exactly my dilemma. A choice between Trump and Sanders/Warren would be like choosing between the Devil and the deep blue sea. If that's the choice we're given in 2020, I won't be voting for either party's candidate.

[idhawkman]

That's exactly my dilemma. A choice between Trump and Sanders/Warren would be like choosing between the Devil and the deep blue sea. If that's the choice we're given in 2020, I won't be voting for either party's candidate.

I don't think you would be alone in your non-vote River. I think the Trump base will show up regardless though which will give Trump a landslide victory in the electoral college since your state along with California and others have ceded your delegates to whoever wins the popular vote regardless of how your state's citizens vote. https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/state-status

Trump will pick up an additional 196 electoral votes if he wins the national popular vote. Those are all from traditional democrat states, too.

[Hawktawk]

The democrat that would beat the living hell out of Trump is Joe Biden, ie stable moderate adult supervision which looks damn inviting right now and the democratic media talking heads are doing all they can to destroy him. Joe isn't about any of about 90% of ID Hawkmans list which is a problem with about half the dem party but would easily make him the next president in the general election.

Picking at his gaffes or trying the "creepy Joe" stuff is laughable when looney tunes is ordering/calling off military strikes, musing about Iran's motivation for their bellicose behavior while completely ignoring the findings of his intelligence people, ordering /postponing ICE roundups and having another of his outright sexual assault/rape victims come out of the woodwork all in a span of about 3 days. Its the new normal at the adult day care known as the west wing.

If the dems succeed in destroying Biden and Warren emerges( It won't be sanders, hes sinking like a rock in the polls) Trump might have a snowball's chance in hell but that's all. It's like the Orlando Sentinels endorsement last week"Not Trump"
ABT. anyone but Trump. 52% of america has just Fing had it with him, economy etc be damned. HIs national re-elect is 37% and anything under 50 for an incumbent is trouble. Its an astounding number for a guy who has this kind of economy propping him up but no surprise to guys like me who saw through him from day one.

Im still hoping for a miracle and that Weld could gain some traction in the primaries and give me a republican candidate I could vote for. Biden? absolutely?Beto? You bet. Kamela harris?. Gladly. Tim Ryan is a real longshot but a brilliant guy from the rust belt that would be impressive if he gained some traction. There's probably a few others but IMO the democratic race looks to me like Biden vs Sanders. All that could change but if thats it im praying for Biden. Former close Trump friend turned MSNBC commentator Donny Deutsch said the other day if its warren vs Trump he wins 48 states . Im not even sure about that but she is the closest thing to Hillary running only far more left wing, equally nagging old biddy hag lecturing corporate america etc. Shes Trumps best shot.