LOL Robert Kraft

[NorthHawk]

He entered a plea of Not Guilty to Solicitation charges.
I don't know if it means much other than crossing t's and dotting i's at this stage but it
might mean he intends to fight it.

[RiverDog]

A few more details...

“The Defendant, Robert Kraft, hereby pleads not guilty to all charges and requests a non-jury trial,” Jack A. Goldberger, Kraft’s attorney, wrote in a filing – reviewed by USA TODAY Sports – made in Palm Beach County.

Kraft was originally scheduled to be arraigned on April 24, although the hearing was moved to March 27. By entering a plea before the arraignment, Kraft avoids having to attend the arraignment in person.

Any idea why he's requesting a non-jury trial? Perhaps to expedite the proceedings?

[idhawkman]

Curiouser and curiouser, isn't it?

[NorthHawk]

The cynic in me suggests it’s easier to buy off a single judge than a jury.

In reality it might mean his lawyer is going to take a legal technicality tack that
a jury might not fully appreciate.
I also wonder if it could mean a private trial?

But I’m just guessing...

[RiverDog]

The cynic in me suggests it’s easier to buy off a single judge than a jury.

In reality it might mean his lawyer is going to take a legal technicality tack that
a jury might not fully appreciate.
I also wonder if it could mean a private trial?

But I’m just guessing...

I'm pretty sure that court trials are subject to the Freedom of Information Act, so there's no such thing as a 'private trial', but a jury might make it more embarrassing than it already is.

At this point, having the charges thrown out on a technicality does Kraft little good in the Court of Public Opinion. He has to be found not guilty. He has to prove he wasn't there. IMO the only thing he can do to reclaim some of his lost respect is to throw money at it, ie a large donation.

[RiverDog]

Idahawk, you might want to take note of this and file it under evidence:

Sources who reviewed the video told ESPN’s TJ Quinn that “it is unquestionably Kraft” and that the 77-year-old is unlikely to dispute the charges.

However, lawyers have filed a motion to prevent the videos from being released to the public, so we might not get a chance to see them. One of the accused lawyers is going to argue that since the investigation was about human trafficking that the videos of his client should never have been part of the search warrant:

The attorney, Richard Kibbey, who said he does NOT represent Kraft, is arguing that police never should have been able to get a warrant for video surveillance if it's a human trafficking case and the Johns weren't charged with trafficking.

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/r ... deo/485884

I don't know how far that argument will go. It seems to me that proving that the women were employed in illegal activity was a key part of a human trafficking charge and that the only way to determine that was through video surveillance, but what do I know.

[RiverDog]

The prosecutors are offering Kraft and other first time offenders a plea deal that would, among a few other things, to admit that the state has enough evidence on them to convict. It's a pretty standard move as the johns aren't the primary target in this case, but in Kraft's case, taking the deal probably isn't sufficient. He's going to have to take the matter to court and show that the accusations were false if he wants to reclaim his reputation and would likely lead to some very stiff (pardon the pun) discipline by the league.

http://time.com/5554490/robert-kraft-pl ... stitution/

Additionally, there's been some accusations that the POTUS was involved in a side show to this scandal as he apparently was very recently partying with the owner of the "brothel" and some in Congress are demanding an investigation. That's a discussion that we'll have to take to the other forum, but it's appropriate to make a note of it.

[NorthHawk]

And as expected, his lawyers are working hard to hide the evidence from the public.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... tion-case/

[RiverDog]

And as expected, his lawyers are working hard to hide the evidence from the public.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... tion-case/

I don't think that's going to work for Kraft, either, as it wouldn't convince the court of public opinion of his innocence, nor would it satisfy the personal conduct policy in the CBA. All it would do would be to spare him further embarrassment.

But it does reinforce my personal conclusion that Kraft is as guilty as sin (pardon the pun) if the best defense he can come up with is to try to get the case thrown out on a technicality.

[jshawaii22]

I read an article that has him at $6000/hr based on 2 legal teams he's paying, One in Florida and one in NE, and yes, I realize it's chump change to him, but it's still 6k an hour. And don't be surprised if the evidence is suppressed. Probably cause has so many 'outs' that good lawyers can get almost anything suppressed.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think that's going to work for Kraft, either, as it wouldn't convince the court of public opinion of his innocence, nor would it satisfy the personal conduct policy in the CBA. All it would do would be to spare him further embarrassment.

But it does reinforce my personal conclusion that Kraft is as guilty as sin (pardon the pun) if the best defense he can come up with is to try to get the case thrown out on a technicality.

Kind of hard to come down on the players if the owners get a pass.

[RiverDog]

I read an article that has him at $6000/hr based on 2 legal teams he's paying, One in Florida and one in NE, and yes, I realize it's chump change to him, but it's still 6k an hour. And don't be surprised if the evidence is suppressed. Probably cause has so many 'outs' that good lawyers can get almost anything suppressed.

I'm not sure. Courts have consistently upheld the legality of evidence of a crime being committed under a court approved search warrant regardless of whether or not the crime was part of the original acts cited as cause for the warrant, but Kraft and the others aren't being charged with a criminal act, they're being charged of a misdemeanor. On the other hand, I've read where this action by Kraft's defense team is routine in cases like this one. I guess we'll find out.

[idhawkman]

... and some in Congress are demanding an investigation.

Oh that's a shock! Who'd of Thunk it?

[RiverDog]

It looks like Kraft has finally fessed up as he issued this statement:

In deference to the judicial process, I have remained silent these past several weeks. To correct some of the misinformation surrounding this matter, my attorney made his first public comments on Friday night. I would like to use this opportunity to say something that I have wanted to say for four weeks,” Kraft said.

“I am truly sorry. I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard. Throughout my life, I have always tried to do the right thing. The last thing I would ever want to do is disrespect another human being. I have extraordinary respect for women; my morals and my soul were shaped by the most wonderful woman, the love of my life, who I was blessed to have as my partner for 50 years.

“As I move forward, I hope to continue to use the platform with which I have been blessed to help others and to try to make a difference. I expect to be judged not by my words, but by my actions. And through those actions, I hope to regain your confidence and respect.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ro ... smsnnews11

[idhawkman]

It looks like Kraft has finally fessed up as he issued this statement:

In deference to the judicial process, I have remained silent these past several weeks. To correct some of the misinformation surrounding this matter, my attorney made his first public comments on Friday night. I would like to use this opportunity to say something that I have wanted to say for four weeks,” Kraft said.

“I am truly sorry. I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard. Throughout my life, I have always tried to do the right thing. The last thing I would ever want to do is disrespect another human being. I have extraordinary respect for women; my morals and my soul were shaped by the most wonderful woman, the love of my life, who I was blessed to have as my partner for 50 years.

“As I move forward, I hope to continue to use the platform with which I have been blessed to help others and to try to make a difference. I expect to be judged not by my words, but by my actions. And through those actions, I hope to regain your confidence and respect.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ro ... smsnnews11

You see that as "Fessing up"? Wow!

[RiverDog]

It looks like Kraft has finally fessed up as he issued this statement:

In deference to the judicial process, I have remained silent these past several weeks. To correct some of the misinformation surrounding this matter, my attorney made his first public comments on Friday night. I would like to use this opportunity to say something that I have wanted to say for four weeks,” Kraft said.

“I am truly sorry. I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard. Throughout my life, I have always tried to do the right thing. The last thing I would ever want to do is disrespect another human being. I have extraordinary respect for women; my morals and my soul were shaped by the most wonderful woman, the love of my life, who I was blessed to have as my partner for 50 years.

“As I move forward, I hope to continue to use the platform with which I have been blessed to help others and to try to make a difference. I expect to be judged not by my words, but by my actions. And through those actions, I hope to regain your confidence and respect.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ro ... smsnnews11

You see that as "Fessing up"? Wow!

Of course, he's fessing up. Why would he would be saying that he was "truly sorry" if he wasn't guilt ridden? Why all the politically correct words about his respect for women? Why would he be asking for forgiveness by saying that he "hopes to regain your confidence and respect"?

It's as close to a pure confession as you will ever see and would stand up as such in court if the prosecution needed it. It's clear that Kraft's defense team has determined that they can't argue the quality of the evidence, such as mistaken identity, can't see money being exchanged, etc, making the confession irrelevant to their defense. As Kraft himself indicated, that's why his lawyers had him wait before he confessed, so they could make a determination on the quality of the evidence before deciding their tact, ie how identifiable he was, the money being exchanged, other witness testimony, etc. All indications are that Kraft's face and the currency exchange is unmistakable.

Instead, Kraft's legal team is concentrating on getting the evidence against him thrown out on the grounds that his arrest didn't have anything to do with the reason for the court approved surveillance because Kraft was not involved in the human trafficking aspect of the activity, which was the main thrust of the investigation.

[idhawkman]

You see that as "Fessing up"? Wow!

Of course, he's fessing up. Why would he would be saying that he was "truly sorry" if he wasn't guilt ridden? Why all the politically correct words about his respect for women? Why would he be asking for forgiveness by saying that he "hopes to regain your confidence and respect"?

It's as close to a pure confession as you will ever see and would stand up as such in court if the prosecution needed it. It's clear that Kraft's defense team has determined that they can't argue the quality of the evidence, such as mistaken identity, can't see money being exchanged, etc, making the confession irrelevant to their defense. As Kraft himself indicated, that's why his lawyers had him wait before he confessed, so they could make a determination on the quality of the evidence before deciding their tact, ie how identifiable he was, the money being exchanged, other witness testimony, etc. All indications are that Kraft's face and the currency exchange is unmistakable.

Instead, Kraft's legal team is concentrating on getting the evidence against him thrown out on the grounds that his arrest didn't have anything to do with the reason for the court approved surveillance because Kraft was not involved in the human trafficking aspect of the activity, which was the main thrust of the investigation.

I see it as a non statement as he said he wanted to correct some of the misinformation and that his respect for women was shaped by his spouse and that he will hopes people judge him on his actions. Regaining the respect of people is because of the new stance by the american people to hold people guilty until proven innocent.

[RiverDog]

I see it as a non statement as he said he wanted to correct some of the misinformation and that his respect for women was shaped by his spouse and that he will hopes people judge him on his actions. Regaining the respect of people is because of the new stance by the american people to hold people guilty until proven innocent.

So please explain why Kraft felt it necessary to say "I'm truly sorry"? Sorry, I was framed? Sorry, people jumped to conclusions? What was it that he did that prompted him to say "I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard.?

I don't understand your position on this. Why are you defending him?

[idhawkman]

I see it as a non statement as he said he wanted to correct some of the misinformation and that his respect for women was shaped by his spouse and that he will hopes people judge him on his actions. Regaining the respect of people is because of the new stance by the american people to hold people guilty until proven innocent.

So please explain why Kraft felt it necessary to say "I'm truly sorry"? What was it that he did that prompted him to say "I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard.?

that and maybe that it took so long to refute the charges. I learned a long time ago, any charge against a person's character appears to be real the more it is claimed and not refuted. Maybe he's apologizing for it taking him so long to refute it and thus misleading the Patriot's fans to the wrong conclusions. (Maybe)

[RiverDog]

that and maybe that it took so long to refute the charges. I learned a long time ago, any charge against a person's character appears to be real the more it is claimed and not refuted. Maybe he's apologizing for it taking him so long to refute it and thus misleading the Patriot's fans to the wrong conclusions. (Maybe)

Oh, come off it, Ida! Had he wanted to apologize for the delay in his response, he would have done it in the first paragraph by saying something like "I'm sorry, but my legal team advised me to be silent". But that's not how he phrased it.

His sentence "I am truly sorry" is followed immediately by "I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard, so it's clear and unambiguous that his first sentence is an apology for his actions in the very next sentence.

[idhawkman]

Oh, come off it, Ida! Had he wanted to apologize for the delay in his response, he would have done it in the first paragraph by saying something like "I'm sorry, but my legal team advised me to be silent". But that's not how he phrased it.

His sentence "I am truly sorry" is followed immediately by "I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard, so it's clear and unambiguous that his first sentence is an apology for his actions in the very next sentence.

You "MAY" be right. I just don't trust anything abiguous like this statement is. Until he comes out a specifically states what he's apologizing for, I just don't trust these slicksters. Reminds me of Clinton's comment about, "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is". Makes you kinda say "hmmmm...." as Arsenio used to say.

[RiverDog]

Oh, come off it, Ida! Had he wanted to apologize for the delay in his response, he would have done it in the first paragraph by saying something like "I'm sorry, but my legal team advised me to be silent". But that's not how he phrased it.

His sentence "I am truly sorry" is followed immediately by "I know I have hurt and disappointed my family, my close friends, my co-workers, our fans and many others who rightfully hold me to a higher standard, so it's clear and unambiguous that his first sentence is an apology for his actions in the very next sentence.

You "MAY" be right. I just don't trust anything abiguous like this statement is. Until he comes out a specifically states what he's apologizing for, I just don't trust these slicksters. Reminds me of Clinton's comment about, "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is". Makes you kinda say "hmmmm...." as Arsenio used to say.

I don't see any ambiguity in the way Kraft phrased his words at all, and your suggestion that it could mean anything different is exactly the kind of word games a lawyer like Slick Willy might play to weasel out of an incriminating statement or action. I don't know about you, but I'm not that gullible.

It's also important to note that not once has Kraft himself ever said that he didn't do it. The only information they ever released was by his attorneys claiming that he did nothing illegal. Their only defense is that the evidence against him was illegally obtained as it didn't relate to human trafficking.

I honestly don't know how much more you want. Are you waiting to hear Kraft say "Yes, paid $100 for a BJ"?

[idhawkman]

It's also important to note that not once has Kraft himself ever said that he didn't do it. The only information they ever released was by his attorneys claiming that he did nothing illegal. Their only defense is that the evidence against him was illegally obtained as it didn't relate to human trafficking.

I honestly don't know how much more you want. Are you waiting to hear Kraft say "Yes, paid $100 for a BJ"?

Nor has he literally said that he did do it. So I'm also not gullible anymore after hearing that there's a difference in the word "IS". I just now parse the words more carefully because it is always about the ability to say, "Oh, I thought you were talking about something else." That is exactly what James Clapper did when he lied to Congress about the amount of information the Intel agencies were collecting about American citizens. There's tons more examples but I won't go into them. I just want someone to come out and say, "I did it." or "I did NOT do it." No other fluff or obfuscation needed in a public statement.

[idhawkman]

Interesting update in the Kraft case yesterday when the judge disallowed the video from the prosecutors since they didn't take enough precaution to keep legitimate massage seekers from being video'd. So now where does this go for Kraft? No video, no case? If Kraft did admit to something, his lawyers sure aren't acting like it.

[NorthHawk]

With good lawyers, you can buy your way out of just about anything.

[RiverDog]

With good lawyers, you can buy your way out of just about anything.

Boy, you can say that again!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/in ... smsnnews11

I fully expect the charges to be dropped. Unless they can get the girls to admit to committing the acts in exchange for money, they don't have a lot to go on, and I doubt the DA gets that aggressive, especially when you consider that those girls were the true victims in this story. There's bigger fish to fry besides going after a bunch of old men looking to get their rocks off.

But the damage has been done. Kraft is always going to be looked at as a dirty old man.

[idhawkman]

Boy, you can say that again!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/in ... smsnnews11

I fully expect the charges to be dropped. Unless they can get the girls to admit to committing the acts in exchange for money, they don't have a lot to go on, and I doubt the DA gets that aggressive, especially when you consider that those girls were the true victims in this story. There's bigger fish to fry besides going after a bunch of old men looking to get their rocks off.

But the damage has been done. Kraft is always going to be looked at as a dirty old man.

Agree with all of this. He will hold on to the fact that he was never convicted but I think you are also right, the girls are the true victims here. I hope they go after the traffickers and fry them to a crisp. I'm not condoning the people who buy the services but I truly hope they fry those that forced the girls into the service.

[RiverDog]

Boy, you can say that again!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/in ... smsnnews11

I fully expect the charges to be dropped. Unless they can get the girls to admit to committing the acts in exchange for money, they don't have a lot to go on, and I doubt the DA gets that aggressive, especially when you consider that those girls were the true victims in this story. There's bigger fish to fry besides going after a bunch of old men looking to get their rocks off.

But the damage has been done. Kraft is always going to be looked at as a dirty old man.

Agree with all of this. He will hold on to the fact that he was never convicted but I think you are also right, the girls are the true victims here. I hope they go after the traffickers and fry them to a crisp. I'm not condoning the people who buy the services but I truly hope they fry those that forced the girls into the service.

He's already publicly apologized, so he's essentially admitted to his participation and thus nothing for him to "hold on" to. The personal conduct policy, of which he clearly violated, is very specific that it's not good enough even to be proven innocent, not to mention having his case thrown out on a technicality, so even if it is dismissed, it's not going to help him. It will spare him some embarrassment, especially if the videos were ever released, but not much beyond that.

My guess is that he'll be suspended, probably 4 games, and levied a large fine then he'll voluntarily make a big donation to the victims of human trafficking.

The Patriots under Kraft/Belichek have compiled the best record in the history of the game, but they've also compiled the most scandals in the history of the game, including Spygate, Deflategate, Aaron Hernandez, and now Rub 'n 'Tugate.

[Rambo2014]

LOL

I am willing to bet that most guys on this board have visited those type of places.....

[idhawkman]

He's already publicly apologized, so he's essentially admitted to his participation and thus nothing for him to "hold on" to. The personal conduct policy, of which he clearly violated, is very specific that it's not good enough even to be proven innocent, not to mention having his case thrown out on a technicality, so even if it is dismissed, it's not going to help him. It will spare him some embarrassment, especially if the videos were ever released, but not much beyond that.

My guess is that he'll be suspended, probably 4 games, and levied a large fine then he'll voluntarily make a big donation to the victims of human trafficking.

The Patriots under Kraft/Belichek have compiled the best record in the history of the game, but they've also compiled the most scandals in the history of the game, including Spygate, Deflategate, Aaron Hernandez, and now Rub 'n 'Tugate.

Again, we just disagree that he apologized for that. Without the video, without the conviction, he just got a massage from a local establishment and there's no violations for him in any way.

[RiverDog]

He's already publicly apologized, so he's essentially admitted to his participation and thus nothing for him to "hold on" to. The personal conduct policy, of which he clearly violated, is very specific that it's not good enough even to be proven innocent, not to mention having his case thrown out on a technicality, so even if it is dismissed, it's not going to help him. It will spare him some embarrassment, especially if the videos were ever released, but not much beyond that.

My guess is that he'll be suspended, probably 4 games, and levied a large fine then he'll voluntarily make a big donation to the victims of human trafficking.

The Patriots under Kraft/Belichek have compiled the best record in the history of the game, but they've also compiled the most scandals in the history of the game, including Spygate, Deflategate, Aaron Hernandez, and now Rub 'n 'Tugate.

Again, we just disagree that he apologized for that. Without the video, without the conviction, he just got a massage from a local establishment and there's no violations for him in any way.

So in other words, what I think you're saying is that since Kraft has not apologized and did nothing wrong, he will not get disciplined by the league for a violation of the personal conduct policy. Is that what I am hearing you say?

[idhawkman]

So in other words, what I think you're saying is that since Kraft has not apologized and did nothing wrong, he will not get disciplined by the league for a violation of the personal conduct policy. Is that what I am hearing you say?

He admitted to embarassing his family but he didn't admit to paying for sex. Since that most likely won't be charged now, or if it is probably won't be found guilty without the tape, he won't be disciplined.

[RiverDog]

So in other words, what I think you're saying is that since Kraft has not apologized and did nothing wrong, he will not get disciplined by the league for a violation of the personal conduct policy. Is that what I am hearing you say?

He admitted to embarassing his family but he didn't admit to paying for sex. Since that most likely won't be charged now, or if it is probably won't be found guilty without the tape, he won't be disciplined.

So he didn't pay for sex but he embarrassed his family. Got it!

And I have you marked down as predicting that the league will not discipline him.

[idhawkman]

So he didn't pay for sex but he embarrassed his family. Got it!

And I have you marked down as predicting that the league will not discipline him.

You can mark me down for it but it isn't what I said. If you can find it, post where he said, "I paid for sex"! I bet you can't find that.

[RiverDog]

So he didn't pay for sex but he embarrassed his family. Got it!

And I have you marked down as predicting that the league will not discipline him.

You can mark me down for it but it isn't what I said. If you can find it, post where he said, "I paid for sex"! I bet you can't find that.

I was quoting you, not Kraft. You're the one that said he didn't pay for sex.

[idhawkman]

I was quoting you, not Kraft. You're the one that said he didn't pay for sex.

Exactly where did I say that?

[RiverDog]

I was quoting you, not Kraft. You're the one that said he didn't pay for sex.

Exactly where did I say that?

Without the video, without the conviction, he just got a massage from a local establishment and there's no violations for him in any way.

[idhawkman]

Exactly where did I say that?

Without the video, without the conviction, he just got a massage from a local establishment and there's no violations for him in any way.

Great, now you are trying to merge two different things and call it one. This is my actual quote regarding if he will be disciplined.

He admitted to embarassing his family but he didn't admit to paying for sex. Since that most likely won't be charged now, or if it is probably won't be found guilty without the tape, he won't be disciplined.

I trust that you can discern that there's conditions in my statement as to whether he will be charged.

Here's my quote with regards to whether he will go to court or if they have a case against him.

Again, we just disagree that he apologized for that. Without the video, without the conviction, he just got a massage from a local establishment and there's no violations for him in any way.

You can try and twist that into what you want it to say but as far as having a case against Kraft, without the video they can't tell if he was legit or not. As far as being disciplined by the league, what would they discipline him for if he's not charged? "IF" which is a huge "IF" they could prove otherwise that he actually paid for the sex, then he would be disciplined by the league but even you agreed that they don't have a case against him without the video.

here's your quote:

I fully expect the charges to be dropped. Unless they can get the girls to admit to committing the acts in exchange for money, they don't have a lot to go on, and I doubt the DA gets that aggressive, especially when you consider that those girls were the true victims in this story. There's bigger fish to fry besides going after a bunch of old men looking to get their rocks off.

And

My guess is that he'll be suspended, probably 4 games, and levied a large fine then he'll voluntarily make a big donation to the victims of human trafficking.

So what you are saying is that they will discipline him for not committing a crime since you don't think he will be charged now but that he will be disciplined. Got it.

[obiken]

Get over it ID, I had Correctional Captains get 5 DUII's and I might have gotten 2. Kraft is rich, and yes its America, justice can be bought.

[idhawkman]

Get over it ID, I had Correctional Captains get 5 DUII's and I might have gotten 2. Kraft is rich, and yes its America, justice can be bought.

I've never denied that. In fact, that's been my position all along. Since he can buy his way out of this charge and most likely already has, he won't be disciplined by the league. Nothing to get over.