49er schism

[RiverDog]

Smith and TJack have two different weakness but the same mindset. Smith's issue is arm strength. He absolutely cannot drive the ball outside the numbers and he's smart enough to know he can't so he doesn't try. TJack has the arm but he can't place the ball accurately and so he turns into a check down machine when there is decent coverage. Same result but different reason.

Smith ain't Ryan Fitzpatrick but he has a weak arm. It's his biggest weakness as a QB.

I just want to interject something into this discussion and I don't mean to divert the thread, but I always felt that TJack's biggest problem was his indecisiveness and refusal to take even the slightest risk of an interception. I think that's why he chose to check the ball down, not a lack of confidence in being able to make a throw except as it relates to taking a risk of having it picked off. I didn't think his accuracy was that much of an issue IMO. And just to defend him for a bit, the guy certainly didn't have much of a receiving corps to work with, either. At least Russell had Rice in 2012 and Tate in 2013.

Jackson had all three ( 4 if you want to count Miller) in 2011. To be fair though, Rice got injured ( as usual) Miller was being asked to block a LOT, Baldwin was consistent and good, Tate was sporadic and needed time to mature. The names were indeed the same as far as the receiver core goes, though I wouldn't profess it as equal to the one Wilson just won a SB with, do to inexperience in the system and in their careers.

I realize that he had all 3. He also had big, fat, and lazy BMW as his #1 receiver, Tate wasn't the Tate that we know today, and as you pointed out, Rice was hurt for most of that season. If a rookie like Doug Baldwin can lead the team in receptions, you know your receiving corps is pretty damn weak.

Just defending TJack a little bit. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for him. He busted his ass for us yet all we did was to ridicule and complain about him. He had plenty to b**** about the year we traded him to Buffalo, but he took it professionally and eventually returned to play a different role on our team.

[HumanCockroach]

Actually Rice played in more games that season than Wilson had him for this past season ( 9 games) and Williams ( a player I absolutely railed against early and often) only played in 12 before being injured. Rice not Williams was the #1 receiver. As I said, I was not saying they were on "par" with 2013 receiver core due to inexperience, and agree with how professional Jackson handled his stay both times in Seattle, like the dude on the team, just never wanted him as the starter. His O-line was atrocious, his receivers were all in a new system minus Rice, and Jackson simply refused to throw a ball some times. I have zero issues lauding his positives, just won't forgo his warts while doing so.

You said he didn't have the receivers Wilson had, I was just pointing out he did indeed have the SAME receivers, doesn't mean the level of those receivers was at that level Wilson enjoyed.

[EntiatHawk]

I think Kaep should ask for 20mil. I want more dysfunction. I want the Niners to have a mini melt down, not enough to not em out but enough to be close and whiff the smell of us getting another championship.

[Hawktawk]

Actually Rice played in more games that season than Wilson had him for this past season ( 9 games) and Williams ( a player I absolutely railed against early and often) only played in 12 before being injured. Rice not Williams was the #1 receiver. As I said, I was not saying they were on "par" with 2013 receiver core due to inexperience, and agree with how professional Jackson handled his stay both times in Seattle, like the dude on the team, just never wanted him as the starter. His O-line was atrocious, his receivers were all in a new system minus Rice, and Jackson simply refused to throw a ball some times. I have zero issues lauding his positives, just won't forgo his warts while doing so.

You said he didn't have the receivers Wilson had, I was just pointing out he did indeed have the SAME receivers, doesn't mean the level of those receivers was at that level Wilson enjoyed.

SSSSOOOOO TRUE!!!! Jackson would refuse to throw the ball. And he wouldn't throw it away either. I remember him taking a sack ON FOURTH DOWN at the end of a brutal loss to the Redskins in 2011. WTF its 4th down you have to throw it up, there's no next play. And he refused to scramble too even though he was a superior athlete. It was maddening to watch.

[Vegaseahawk]

I've been away for a while & came back. This is the 1st thread I've read. It's a very good one. Theres plenty of healthy debate regarding TJack, Kaep, A Smith, & even RW. After I 1st read the point about Smith not making that attempt in the 4th Qtr that Sherm tipped, I immediately thought, "yeah, but Smith wouldn't have gotten his team in position to win". After reading some of the counterpoints, it seems to me that there are well placed points that support the argument on both, sides, but I don't believe that Smith could've done what Kaepernick did against the Seahawks Defense,...no way. ...having said that, I can't believe I just gave Krapperdick props...I can't stand him.

[kalibane]

Hey the truth is the truth. And the truth is Kaepernick is flawed but he still scares me when he has it going. If Alex Smith were still the 49er QB I wouldn't be scared of the Niners at all.


P.S. Let's all hope Kaep doesn't get 20 million. Even if Kaep got 18 it's kind of a depressing thought what it's going to cost to resign RW.

[burrrton]

P.S. Let's all hope Kaep doesn't get 20 million. Even if Kaep got 18 it's kind of a depressing thought what it's going to cost to resign RW.

I was about to point this out. Kaep's contract is going to have a big influence on what we have to pay RW.

[NorthHawk]

It will be interesting to see what RW wants. Perhaps a cap friendly number to keep some of the key players here, but he will get his millions.
After all, it was Seattle who drafted him and it was Seattle who gave him a real honest chance to show what he has. He might not have got that on another team considering the bias with his height.
You know if it was Martz as his HC he never would have got the opportunity and I'm sure there are more than a few others that would look to pull him the first time he made a mistake.

[RiverDog]

Actually Rice played in more games that season than Wilson had him for this past season ( 9 games) and Williams ( a player I absolutely railed against early and often) only played in 12 before being injured. Rice not Williams was the #1 receiver. As I said, I was not saying they were on "par" with 2013 receiver core due to inexperience, and agree with how professional Jackson handled his stay both times in Seattle, like the dude on the team, just never wanted him as the starter. His O-line was atrocious, his receivers were all in a new system minus Rice, and Jackson simply refused to throw a ball some times. I have zero issues lauding his positives, just won't forgo his warts while doing so.

You said he didn't have the receivers Wilson had, I was just pointing out he did indeed have the SAME receivers, doesn't mean the level of those receivers was at that level Wilson enjoyed.

I limited my comparison to the Sidney Rice of 2012, of which he was healthy the entire season and played lights out, caught everything he could touch. I was one of the first to jump off of the BMW bandwagon, which started with our playoff game vs. Chicago when he was supposed to have this huge advantage over Chicago's much smaller secondary. I also saw him loaf in person at several Hawk games, as he would not work to get open once his QB started to scramble, which in TJack's case, happened every other passing play as our line blocking that year was as bad as it's ever been, hence Miller's disappearance.

I absolutely agree with his reluctance to throw. It was his major weakness. He could have been a damn good QB had he some confidence in his arm and his receivers.

I'll never forget TJack's warts, it's just that we tend to lose sight of how hard the guy busted his nuts for us, kinda like how everybody turned on Shaun Alexander when his performance diminished so rapidly.

[Eaglehawk]

Tjack was not perfect. But he was a baller. Playing hurt against the Skins(I think), was all I needed to see to forever respect the guy.

[EntiatHawk]

I am wondering if Rice will come back on lower rate and have a bunch of performance incentives built in? When healthy he can play.

[RiverDog]

I am wondering if Rice will come back on lower rate and have a bunch of performance incentives built in? When healthy he can play.

Rice wasn't playing all that well in 2013 prior to his getting hurt. He wasn't getting hardly any separation and not near as many balls were thrown in his direction as there was in 2012. But he is a big receiver, something that we're lacking at that position, and with a short quarterback like Russell, having a taller target is more important than a QB that benefits from a higher launching point. IMO one of the reasons we struggled at times in the red zone was because we didn't have a big receiver that could go up and get passes. If he can pass a physical, I wouldn't mind bringing Rice back on a severely reduced and incentive laden contract.

[NorthHawk]

I think every team needs some tall receivers regardless of the QB height. It's about an advantage against the DBs rather than a QB being short.
Provided of course the tall WRs can also jump.

[EntiatHawk]

Riverdog, I agree but I was wondering if his knees were bothering him. That is why I would put together an offer that is laden with performance incentives.

[RiverDog]

I think every team needs some tall receivers regardless of the QB height. It's about an advantage against the DBs rather than a QB being short.
Provided of course the tall WRs can also jump.

Take a look at the height of receivers the other notable short QB, Drew Brees, has. Colson, Meacham, Graham, those guys are a lot bigger than the WR's Russell is throwing to. It's a lot more of an advantage for a QB with a lower launching point to have those big trees out there than it is for a guy like Andrew Luck.

[HumanCockroach]

I think every team needs some tall receivers regardless of the QB height. It's about an advantage against the DBs rather than a QB being short.
Provided of course the tall WRs can also jump.

Take a look at the height of receivers the other notable short QB, Drew Brees, has. Colson, Meacham, Graham, those guys are a lot bigger than the WR's Russell is throwing to. It's a lot more of an advantage for a QB with a lower launching point to have those big trees out there than it is for a guy like Andrew Luck.

Every team is looking for those receivers, and every team that has one benefits from it, regardless of the height of the QB, thing is those guys simply aren't just floating around to be had by every team. Manning has Thomas, Cutler has Marshall and Alshon, Stafford has Megatron, Eli has Nicks and Cruz etc. It does not matter the height of the QB, if a team, any team, can get that guy they do.

[NorthHawk]

I think every team needs some tall receivers regardless of the QB height. It's about an advantage against the DBs rather than a QB being short.
Provided of course the tall WRs can also jump.

Take a look at the height of receivers the other notable short QB, Drew Brees, has. Colson, Meacham, Graham, those guys are a lot bigger than the WR's Russell is throwing to. It's a lot more of an advantage for a QB with a lower launching point to have those big trees out there than it is for a guy like Andrew Luck.

That's not even close to being right.
It doesn't matter the launch point rather it matters where the ball is when it arrives. I would think that Russell has as high a release point as Rivers or Stafford and nobody thinks they have problems delivering the ball to average size receivers.
Big receivers have a height advantage over most DBs, that's why they are wanted.

[RiverDog]

I think every team needs some tall receivers regardless of the QB height. It's about an advantage against the DBs rather than a QB being short.
Provided of course the tall WRs can also jump.

Take a look at the height of receivers the other notable short QB, Drew Brees, has. Colson, Meacham, Graham, those guys are a lot bigger than the WR's Russell is throwing to. It's a lot more of an advantage for a QB with a lower launching point to have those big trees out there than it is for a guy like Andrew Luck.

That's not even close to being right.
It doesn't matter the launch point rather it matters where the ball is when it arrives. I would think that Russell has as high a release point as Rivers or Stafford and nobody thinks they have problems delivering the ball to average size receivers.
Big receivers have a height advantage over most DBs, that's why they are wanted.

A lower launch point requires a higher arch to reach the same target as a higher launch point. A higher arch means a longer distance to the target. A longer distance to target means a longer time to target, and a longer time in which a DB has to react.

Or in simpler terms, a taller quarterback is throwing downhill. A shorter quarterback is throwing uphill. Raising the target by putting a 6'7" receiver on the end of a pass allows a QB to throw on more of a straight line.

[NorthHawk]

If you're talking 4 feet difference, then maybe but we know Russ has a high release point and others have a low release point therefore it cancels out any difference. Unless you think Russ has a weak arm, then a greater arc would be required.

It's the release point that's key if you believe what you are saying, not the QB height.
I don't really think throwing downhill has any advantage for a receiver, it's more a matter of the ball being in the right place at the right time.

[HumanCockroach]

Any route over 20 yards the "downhill" theory is shredded. Might be an advantage on shorter passes, but downfield throws can't be thrown downhill, which is where a majority of big receivers make their hay. Not underneath timing routes, add in that a downhill throw is more than likely going to be tipped by a d'lineman and I really am not sure what the advantage is in this instance. Big targets have an advantage in the redzone because they can go UP not down. Not sure what the point is here, seldom do I see a downhill throw, as it isn't advantageous to lead a receiver to the ground very often, which even a 6'5" manning would do should he throw on a downhill plain.

The SAME throw on a downhill plain can be made by a 5' QB as a an 8' QB, because in order to complete it, there needs to be a throwing lane. Numerous articles have discussed Wilson's release point, which is the same as Rivers, not sure where this became a problem, but it isn't due to height.

[RiverDog]

I never said it was a problem. I was merely pointing out the fact that a lower launch point requires a higher trajectory to reach the same target and that having bigger receivers would be more of a benefit to Russell than a taller quarterback like Andrew Luck. You are correct that this effect is diminished by distance, but I specifically pointed out our red zone troubles where he's not throwing 30-40 yard passes.

The Saints seemed to have recognized this need as they've surrounded Drew Brees with some pretty big receivers, unless you want to argue that it's a mere coincidence that one of the shortest QB's in the league has one of the tallest receiving corps.

[HumanCockroach]

Would you like to really argue that a tall talented receiver isn't wanted in the Redzone by ANY QB? Manning is surrounded by tall receivers as well ( both) Flacco also has a bevy of them. The height of the QB isn't the deciding factor, it's the ability to find the tall productive receiver. Seattle has tried numerous times to draft or sign one, and yet they currently do not have one on the team. If Jackson was still the QB, they would STILL be trying to get one, they swung and missed at Marshall, and Jackson and yet they did so without Wilson at QB.

A throw in the redzone, no matter the QB height is 98 out of a 100 times high, regardless of the QB's height, just the way it is, and is the way it ALWAYS has been, whether it be Bree's or the tallest QB in the league.

And as I posted, Wilsons "launch" point is the same as Rivers ( a tall QB) so still not sure what you are attempting to say. He isn't throwing the ball from the top of his head, so his height is irrelevant to the discussion, he is releasing the ball at the SAME point as a QB that is 6'3 +.

[NorthHawk]

I'll let HC take it from here...

[kalibane]

Not necessarily so Riv, the Saints aren't especially big at WR and when they won the Superbowl Lance Moore and Devery Henderson were major contributors at 5'9" and 5'11" respectively.

I think as it relates to release point height of the WRs is a negligible advantage at best. QBs like Wilson and Brees tend to find throwing lanes. The main advantage of a big WR is to provide a big target and that helps all QBs pretty much on an equal basis.

[HumanCockroach]

Seattles average receiver height last season 6'2 1/3"

New Orleans average receiver height last season 6'2 2/3"

Atanta Falcons 6'2 2/3"

It's fine if you want a big target RD, but as you can see by the list I provided for you, the difference simply has NOTHING to do with QB height, plenty of "taller" QB'S with big receivers and targets....

http://www.therunnersports.com/2013/09/ ... receivers/

By the way, Marques Colston weighs in at a whopping 5'9" ( to Tate 5'10") Rice was 6'4" ( taller than Moore) the only reason NO average height is a 1/3 of an inch taller on average is that Graham has 2" on Miller ( 6'7" to 6'5") your assumption was off to begin with, and really, it is as inaccurate as it can be ( considering NONE of Seattles receivers are as small as Colston). So is it because they haven't come to that conclusion or because they aren't a dime a dozen?

[RiverDog]

Seattles average receiver height last season 6'2 1/3"

New Orleans average receiver height last season 6'2 2/3"

Atanta Falcons 6'2 2/3"

It's fine if you want a big target RD, but as you can see by the list I provided for you, the difference simply has NOTHING to do with QB height, plenty of "taller" QB'S with big receivers and targets....

http://www.therunnersports.com/2013/09/ ... receivers/

By the way, Marques Colston weighs in at a whopping 5'9" ( to Tate 5'10") Rice was 6'4" ( taller than Moore) the only reason NO average height is a 1/3 of an inch taller on average is that Graham has 2" on Miller ( 6'7" to 6'5") your assumption was off to begin with, and really, it is as inaccurate as it can be ( considering NONE of Seattles receivers are as small as Colston). So is it because they haven't come to that conclusion or because they aren't a dime a dozen?

Are you serious? Is this really Human Cockroach or did your wife make this post? How could an intelligent follower of the NFL such as you are watch as many Saints games as you must have and come away with the impression that Marques Colston is 5'9"? FYI Colston is 6'4", Graham 6'7", and Meacham is 6'2". They also had Nick Toon at 6'4". Every one of those receivers is as tall or taller than the tallest Seahawk WR with the exception of Rice, who was hurt for most of the season, wasn't much of a factor when he did play (15 rec. in 8 games), and is no longer on our roster. Tossing in the 5'9" Lance Moore in with the rest of the Saints tall trees skews the averages more than a 2" difference between Graham and Miller. Your link isn't an accurate reflection of how tall the Saints receivers are or how short the Hawks are.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/rost ... ans-saints

Without Rice, our wide receivers were/are Doug Baldwin (5'10"), Golden Tate (5'10"), Jermaine Kearse (6'1), Percy Harvin (5'11), Phil Bates (6'1") and Lockett (6'2"), the latter three having only caught 6 passes between them. Revise your heights and go back and calculate how many passes were caught by Saints WR's/TE's that were 6'2" or taller and compare that with number of completions to 6'2" and taller WR/TE's Russell was throwing to then get back to me.

You have some 'splainin to do about the 5'9" Colston, HC. Jeez.

[HumanCockroach]

You want to trash me for believing the article was correct? Be my guest, I ain't wasting time fact checking something that is in the link. The original point I made was EVERY single QB whether he be 5' or 7' wants a tall big target in the redzone. How about you provide some actual info for your position, then maybe I'll provide MORE to counter it? If Seattle felt it NEEDED them, I have little doubt they would have some ( or have you simply forgotten the SLEW of them that have been on the team for parts the last couple seasons, only to be released?). They don't have them because they simply aren't that easy to come by, and whether you WANT to pretend they put a high priority on them or not, they don't, haven't and won't simply because it is YOUR preference. They HAVE drafted some ( only in the mid to late rounds) or brought them in ( but only on low contracts, and high risk players) and they have even tried to trade for them ( but only if the price was right). They pulled off one trade, and it was for a small receiver, they could have had Marshall and Jackson if they were willing to part with a first round pick for them, and they didn't.

Yep, high priority. LMAO. Obviously anyone paying attention, can see that big receivers aren't a priority to them, and it isn't because they feel they have to have them for Wilson to be successful.

Now how about you answer the whole Wilsons release point is as high as a 6'3" QB you have been glossing over?

Seattle isn't NO and Wilson isn't Brees you are attempting to make a point, refuse to back it up, and refuse to acknowledge basic principals in the NFL game, namely, the fact that ALL teams want big targets, and the QB height. Is irrelevant to that desire.

[burrrton]

Be my guest, I ain't wasting time fact checking something that is in the link.

They were referring to Lance Moore (iirc) being 5'9", not Colston. FYI.

[HumanCockroach]

Oops, transposed the player.

[RiverDog]

Oops, transposed the player.

LOL! After reading the link, I thought you must have had them mixed up, although Colston has been Brees' leading WR for years. Sorry if I appeared to rub your nose in it. The stats in that link are very deceiving, especially if they're including Sidney Rice, who was a non factor in 2013 and is no longer on the roster.

BTW, I'm not buying that RW's release point is the same as a 6'3" QB. It's that simple. Besides, release point is only one disadvantage of a shorter quarterback, the other being field vision, and having a taller receiver makes him easier to spot. I really don't want to get into this short QB debate again as Russell has done such a great job of mitigating it, so forgive me if I don't respond to anymore comments on the subject.

[HumanCockroach]

Ok, my point has always been that regardless of QB height, big targets are desired in the redzone. So we disagree in principle. I can live with that.

[SalmonBB]

Hey guys,

An observation not about Smith vs. Kaep vs. RW, nor about the advandatages of tall receivers in the red-zone, but about this forum. What an amazing analysis taking place on all theses things here by each of you - very detailed and thoughtful. Not that this is new, but everyone has definitely evolved in some form or other as experts in the field of football analysis over the past few years, and on this forum.

Just had a flash feeling come over me: we're fricking Super Bowl Champions!!! I know ... a month's gone by already, but sometimes I think that - at least for me - I've been in some weird state of not knowing what to do or say or think over this period of time. Then every so often, and momentarily, it hits me what just happened - and I'm filled with incredible joy.

GO SEAHAWKS!!! SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS!!!

[Hawktawk]

Hell Yeah!!!! SB Champs baby. Makes for a whole nother different offseason:()

[burrrton]

Then every so often, and momentarily, it hits me what just happened - and I'm filled with incredible joy.

Just sat down last night and watched the 60min SoundFx show for the 8th or 9th time. Probably watch the DVD again today sometime.

[Eaglehawk]

Hell Yeah!!!! SB Champs baby. Makes for a whole nother different offseason:()

Yeah, I type SB champions on the SF web sites and other sites and I am banned immediately. Oh what a feeling! Thank god!

[Eaglehawk]

HC,

Oh by the way your post:

"OOPS, TRANSPOSED THE PLAYER"

should go down in Hawk Shack history as being the funniest post I have ever read on here to date!


Truly classic bro. Especially considering your "rant" prior. Gotta love the off-season HC! Who do we have to argue with other than ourselves?

Props to the fact checker Burr! (truly watch over your shoulder for this bastard).

[RiverDog]

HC,

Oh by the way your post:

"OOPS, TRANSPOSED THE PLAYER"

should go down in Hawk Shack history as being the funniest post I have ever read on here to date!


Truly classic bro. Especially considering your "rant" prior. Gotta love the off-season HC! Who do we have to argue with other than ourselves?

Props to the fact checker Burr! (truly watch over your shoulder for this bastard).

And ironically, today the Saints released the 5'9" Lance Moore. There goes the height stat!

[HumanCockroach]

HC,

Oh by the way your post:

"OOPS, TRANSPOSED THE PLAYER"

should go down in Hawk Shack history as being the funniest post I have ever read on here to date!


Truly classic bro. Especially considering your "rant" prior. Gotta love the off-season HC! Who do we have to argue with other than ourselves?

Props to the fact checker Burr! (truly watch over your shoulder for this bastard).

And ironically, today the Saints released the 5'9" Lance Moore. There goes the height stat!

Please tell me you are not implying his height had anything to do with his release.$$$$$$ was the sole reason, and I would hope you understand that, Moore was on the Saints for 9 seasons.

[RiverDog]

HC,

Oh by the way your post:

"OOPS, TRANSPOSED THE PLAYER"

should go down in Hawk Shack history as being the funniest post I have ever read on here to date!


Truly classic bro. Especially considering your "rant" prior. Gotta love the off-season HC! Who do we have to argue with other than ourselves?

Props to the fact checker Burr! (truly watch over your shoulder for this bastard).

And ironically, today the Saints released the 5'9" Lance Moore. There goes the height stat!

Please tell me you are not implying his height had anything to do with his release.$$$$$$ was the sole reason, and I would hope you understand that, Moore was on the Saints for 9 seasons.

Not at all. The reason I thought it ironic is that Moore was the reason that phony WR/TE height stat you posted was as skewed as it was, and now that he's gone, revising the Saints average heights, along with the Hawks releasing Sidney Rice, is going to make the disparity between the heights of the Saints receiving corps vs. ours even greater.

I also saw that the Saints released Darren Sproles. Looks like they're going to have to find a couple more players to sit in the front row of the team picture.

[HumanCockroach]

LOL, yeah "phony". I recommend sending a letter to the author of the article explaining how artificial the measurements were. While you are at it, make sure to do the same with the other 10 articles that are on that Google page about the same thing, and maybe send some info to teams like the Falcons, to let them know since they have a tall QB they don't need a tall receiver core, maybe they'll all release guys like Jones, Marshall, Alshon, Mega Tron, Demaryious etc, and Wilson can have his pick. LOL