49er schism

[EntiatHawk]

I know this topic was floated earlier here but thought I would post this article from the News Tribune.

I am hoping that the little team up north can put another good smack down on the bay boys and send them into a tailspin. Wouldn't that be fun

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/02/2 ... ld-be.html

[daweez]

And then there is this.
http://mynorthwest.com/719/2465673/Whil ... ve-harmony

[c_hawkbob]

That is so much fun to see

[Eaglehawk]

Got my bag of popcorn Bob. The implosion has already begun.

[yoder]

Makes it even nicer to know that we have a finely tuned machine, starting with the F.O.!

[RiverDog]

I know this topic was floated earlier here but thought I would post this article from the News Tribune.

I am hoping that the little team up north can put another good smack down on the bay boys and send them into a tailspin. Wouldn't that be fun

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/02/2 ... ld-be.html

Glad to see Boling's still around. I need to read the TNT more often. I always liked Boling's commentaries.

I agree with all the points in the article, and I'll add a few more. The division is getting stronger, more so than any other in the league. Bruce Arians' Cards are on the rise and the Rams are reaping the benefits from the RG3 trade as they have two draft picks in the top 15 along with the hiring of a hard as nails defensive coordinator. And of course, we're not getting any weaker. The Niners window of opportunity could be closing, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they slipped big time this season.

[monkey]

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2014/02/2 ... ld-be.html

Well, thanks in large part to Richard Sherman, the Seahawks are already living rent free in their heads! The fact that we won the Superbowl when they've gotten so close three straight years, and FAILED only exacerbates that. I cannot even begin to imagine how much that much drive Harbaugh crazy, the fact that Pete Carroll who beat him in college, and won a National Championship there, has now beat him again in the pros, and won a Superbowl, while his team has choked. As angry and nutso as he is, I'd guess he's not much further than a small nudge away from needing to be institutionalized.

The rift, which was reported before last years Super Bowl against the Ravens, is a real rift, one which I would bet cannot be resolved amicably and will eventually lead to front office turnover.
Even if this doesn't happen before the start of next season, I truly believe that Harbaugh's coaching style, will start to burn the team out, and you will start to see the effects next year.

In fact, while everyone is predicting the Niners and Cards to be super tough teams next season, making it tough for Seattle to repeat, I think the Niners cracks will start to spread. Three straight years of getting close, only to fail, while the team is getting older, and the front office is coming apart...not a good sign for a team at all.
The Cards still have a terrible QB. Yeah the defense is terrific, but Carson Palmer....that team isn't going anywhere with him at the helm!
In fact, depending on how well the Rams do in the draft, we could be looking at the Rams as the surprise second place finisher next year, while the Seahawks easily run away with the division.

I'm not predicting that yet mind you, I need to see how the rest of the off season plays out first, but I am leaning that way.
The Niners are a good/great team, but they are starting to show serious cracks under the pressure to win it all, because they keep coming up just short. As long as Kaepernick is their QB, they will continue to come up short in big situations, he's shown he has a knack for it. Last year in the Super Bowl, this year in the NFC Championship game etc...and that will only continue to widen the already apparent cracks.
I guess the point I am making is the Niners window of opportunity is quickly closing. VERY quickly. I wouldn't be that surprised to see them miss the playoffs entirely next year.

[NorthHawk]

The 49ers will be a tough team for the next few years.
The Rams and Cards are also improving rapidly, so it will be on cakewalk winning this division.
It might be tough enough that the winner of the NFC West won't get HFA for the playoffs.

[Eaglehawk]

NH,
Definitely gotta say you are on to something.

[HumanCockroach]

Never a good sign when there is rumblings of players having issues with a coach....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... cker-room/

Seems like people on the outside aren't the only ones seeing how much of a douche the guy is. Doesn't mean they won't still be the main competition, but any time the coach loses credibility amongst his team leaders, it isn't a good thing, and that goes two fold if he lacks the support of the FO.

[monkey]

It just hit me who Harbaugh and this whole situation reminds me of. Jim Harbaugh is the Billy Martin of the NFL.

[Hawktawk]

I wonder if the handling of Smith vs Kaepernic by Hairball is a component of the problem. I realize the entire 9ers FO was involved in the pick of Kap but his premature insertion into the starting lineup coupled with his regression as a player this year is all on Hairball.When a HC benches a guy with the best QBR in the league at mid season for his new toy they will all 3 be forever linked.

As Hawks fan I think I would have been more worried with Smith in the game on that final drive because he is RW lite. He runs only if he has to and he doesn't do dumb stuff with the ball. He was a couple of stupid plays by a kick returner from leading the 9ers to the SB in 2011 and he was unceremoniously dumped after a concussion. Smith showed this year he is capable of being much more than a game managing dink and dunker.

Kap has showed the last year and a half that he is an extremely athletic QB but really poor at reading defenses and extremely turnover prone. He almost singlehandedly cost the 9ers another trip to the SB this year with his 3 turnovers in the 4th quarter of the conference championship, also turning in a couple of stinkers on offense in the regular season to insure the game would be at the Clink instead of the Stick.

I don't know, maybe its just wishful thinking but whatever it is I sure enjoy watching the whiners implode.

[Eaglehawk]

I wonder if the handling of Smith vs Kaepernic by Hairball is a component of the problem. I realize the entire 9ers FO was involved in the pick of Kap but his premature insertion into the starting lineup coupled with his regression as a player this year is all on Hairball.When a HC benches a guy with the best QBR in the league at mid season for his new toy they will all 3 be forever linked.

As Hawks fan I think I would have been more worried with Smith in the game on that final drive because he is RW lite. He runs only if he has to and he doesn't do dumb stuff with the ball. He was a couple of stupid plays by a kick returner from leading the 9ers to the SB in 2011 and he was unceremoniously dumped after a concussion. Smith showed this year he is capable of being much more than a game managing dink and dunker.

Kap has showed the last year and a half that he is an extremely athletic QB but really poor at reading defenses and extremely turnover prone. He almost singlehandedly cost the 9ers another trip to the SB this year with his 3 turnovers in the 4th quarter of the conference championship, also turning in a couple of stinkers on offense in the regular season to insure the game would be at the Clink instead of the Stick.

I don't know, maybe its just wishful thinking but whatever it is I sure enjoy watching the whiners implode.

KARMA. Remember how half the Niner team wanted us to lose the SB?

[Oly]

As much as I like seeing the 49ers implode, I LOVE seeing anything bad happen to Harbaugh. I don't think there is a person in sports I hate more than that guy...although if Ken Behring, pox on his house, was still in sports he'd take the honor. But that's it. That's the company Harbaugh keeps in my mind.

All I can think about when reading these stories is how angry Harbaugh must be every day. He hates his GM, but the organization seems to value the GM more than him. He hates Carroll, and Carroll has both the ring and team harmony that has eluded him. And those he can control--the players--are starting to hate him. He sees himself as this god of a coach, but instead of a ring he has the enmity of everyone that can help him get a ring.

Just put yourself in his khakis for a second and imagine how much you'd hate your life (and your wardrobe). How would you feel if you felt that you had the passion and intelligence to succeed as long as all of these idiot administrators and idiot referees and idiot big-jawed coaches and idiot players just got with the program? He has to just be angry and spiteful all the time. And that warms the cockles of my Seahawks-loving heart.

[Eaglehawk]

As much as I like seeing the 49ers implode, I LOVE seeing anything bad happen to Harbaugh. I don't think there is a person in sports I hate more than that guy...although if Ken Behring, pox on his house, was still in sports he'd take the honor. But that's it. That's the company Harbaugh keeps in my mind.

All I can think about when reading these stories is how angry Harbaugh must be every day. He hates his GM, but the organization seems to value the GM more than him. He hates Carroll, and Carroll has both the ring and team harmony that has eluded him. And those he can control--the players--are starting to hate him. He sees himself as this god of a coach, but instead of a ring he has the enmity of everyone that can help him get a ring.

Just put yourself in his khakis for a second and imagine how much you'd hate your life (and your wardrobe). How would you feel if you felt that you had the passion and intelligence to succeed as long as all of these idiot administrators and idiot referees and idiot big-jawed coaches and idiot players just got with the program? He has to just be angry and spiteful all the time. And that warms the cockles of my Seahawks-loving heart.

Now this is the classic Oly post at the PI that I remember u posting back in the day!

+1 brother.

[NorthHawk]

I wonder if the handling of Smith vs Kaepernic by Hairball is a component of the problem. I realize the entire 9ers FO was involved in the pick of Kap but his premature insertion into the starting lineup coupled with his regression as a player this year is all on Hairball.When a HC benches a guy with the best QBR in the league at mid season for his new toy they will all 3 be forever linked.

As Hawks fan I think I would have been more worried with Smith in the game on that final drive because he is RW lite. He runs only if he has to and he doesn't do dumb stuff with the ball. He was a couple of stupid plays by a kick returner from leading the 9ers to the SB in 2011 and he was unceremoniously dumped after a concussion. Smith showed this year he is capable of being much more than a game managing dink and dunker.

Kap has showed the last year and a half that he is an extremely athletic QB but really poor at reading defenses and extremely turnover prone. He almost singlehandedly cost the 9ers another trip to the SB this year with his 3 turnovers in the 4th quarter of the conference championship, also turning in a couple of stinkers on offense in the regular season to insure the game would be at the Clink instead of the Stick.

I don't know, maybe its just wishful thinking but whatever it is I sure enjoy watching the whiners implode.

KARMA. Remember how half the Niner team wanted us to lose the SB?

According to PFT, Kapaernick now wants $18 million per year after only 29 starts. That figure might be their opening gambit to start the negotiations.
Since they have jettisoned Smith, they would have to develop a new QB should they not come to an agreement.

This ties in with Harbaugh replacing Smith in 2012 with Kap who some argue was too early even though he got within 5 yards of a SB victory, but if true, his salary demands are more than Brady but in the same ballpark as Romo, Stafford, and Cutler.

It's going to be a big decision for them because if Harbaugh leaves or is pushed out, the new HC might not want to keep Kap but if he's signed to a big deal they would have to.

[kalibane]

I think this is hilarious but I do have to disagree with the Kaep, Smith, Harbaugh thing.

If you want to know what the NFC championship looks like with Alex Smith at QB just go rewatch the game that took place two weeks later.

Alex Smith can't throw deep just like Peyton Manning can't throw deep. There is zero chance that Smith could have completed the TD pass to Anquan Boldin that barely made it over Earl Thomas. If Alex Smith is in that game the Corners don't have to worry about getting beaten deep and Kam Chanceller just sits on the crossing stuff all night. It ends up looking like the NFC Championship between the Giants and the 49ers where Smith couldn't do anything whatsover, only the 9ers couldn't run the ball against the Hawks. Kaep has a lot of flaws that people like Future don't like to admit to but he kept the 49ers in that game with his legs when they couldn't do anything else on offense and he made 4-5 big plays with his arm in the 2nd half that Alex Smith just flat out doesn't have the ability to make. With Alex Smith at QB that game doesn't even come down to the last possession.

[RiverDog]

I think this is hilarious but I do have to disagree with the Kaep, Smith, Harbaugh thing.

If you want to know what the NFC championship looks like with Alex Smith at QB just go rewatch the game that took place two weeks later.

Alex Smith can't throw deep just like Peyton Manning can't throw deep. There is zero chance that Smith could have completed the TD pass to Anquan Boldin that barely made it over Earl Thomas. If Alex Smith is in that game the Corners don't have to worry about getting beaten deep and Kam Chanceller just sits on the crossing stuff all night. It ends up looking like the NFC Championship between the Giants and the 49ers where Smith couldn't do anything whatsover, only the 9ers couldn't run the ball against the Hawks. Kaep has a lot of flaws that people like Future don't like to admit to but he kept the 49ers in that game with his legs when they couldn't do anything else on offense and he made 4-5 big plays with his arm in the 2nd half that Alex Smith just flat out doesn't have the ability to make. With Alex Smith at QB that game doesn't even come down to the last possession.

That's the only point I disagree with. Kaepernick completed two passes of 20+ yards in the 2nd half, both on their 3rd quarter TD drive.

But I get your point. No way Smith could have put the same number of points on the board. They would have punted more and given our offense more opportunities. It wouldn't have been a rout like we saw in the SB, but it wouldn't have been a one score game, either.

Harbaugh's act is beginning to wear thin in SF. They probably patch things up this season, but I don't think he gets the mega deal he thinks he deserves. As much as we're wringing our hands about having to resign our stars, the Niners problems are far deeper than ours. Sometimes it helps put things in perspective to look around and see what our neighbors are doing.

[Hawktawk]

You are some smart guys but you weren't paying attention very well late in the season to the Chiefs offense last year to be making the comments you are about Smith. The Chiefs finished the season scoring 35 or more points in 5 of their last 7 games, four of them over 40 points. In the playoff loss to the Colts Smith was 30 of 46 for 378 yards, 4 touchdowns, no picks, and a 119 QBR. He also rushed 8 times for 57 yards, a 7.1 average ypc. And that was in spite of losing his top 2 running backs including all world Jamaal Charles early in the game.

Reid is developing Smith and Carl Peterson is wanting to lock him up with a long term deal. And his arm is looking a lot better now that he has a coach who trusts him.

Manning I agree has lost his velocity completely and would be cooked if the officials would call the illegal picks which account for many of his completions. I wont quibble any more about who would have fared better against our defense, probably none of the above as focused as they were. But I think the 9ers will rue the day they handed the keys to the Escalade to a tatted up punk with his hat on backwards and sent the real NFL field general on their roster packing. Maybe some of them already do.................

[Seahawks4Ever]

Jim also had to watch his brother hoist the Lombardi and that is something no sibling wants to see. Jim Harbaugh I think is going to be the Larry Brown of the NFL. Brown was a very good basketball coach and was successful every where he went but could not stand to stay put for more than 4-5 seasons at most in one place. Right now, Jim wants a big whopping pay raise or he is threatening to walk. he acts as if his team he won the championship 3 years running. The Yorks will probably tell Jim to win the SB next year then they will give him a raise. That will be enough to cause Jim to sulk and then go act like an idiot every chance he gets and then storm off. The Yorks have already said they won't stand in his way if he has a better offer some where else.

[kalibane]

1. That's in Andy Reid's offense, not Jim Harbaugh's. There are a lot of mediocre QBs that have looked good to passable with Andy Reid coaching them. (Kevin Kolb, Brian Hoyer, Ty and Koy Detmer).

2. I think you need to look a little closer than the point totals and his stat line. Yes he basically had the game of his life against Indianapolis in the playoffs, a game where no defense was being played. He wasn't making tough throws. Guys were open by 3-4 yards. The Colts DBs were banged up and they weren't good to begin with. In week 17 though the Colts held them to 7 points in Arrowhead.

He put up 45 on the Redskins but the Redskins were the 30th ranked scoring defense. They couldn't stop anyone all year.

He put up 56 on the Raiders. The Raiders were the 29th ranked scoring defense and saying Alex Smith put up those points is almost laughable. That was the game Jamal Charles caught passes out of the backfield and had like 200 yards after the catch and 5 TDs total. That wasn't Smith.

What you saw was Andy Reid's offense against terrible defenses not Alex Smith carving teams up.



Riv,

I meant big in terms of impact. Kaep had a couple plays where he was able to extend the play and rifle passes into tight coverage on the outside. They weren't necessarily long plays but they were big plays that got first downs and kept drives alive and they were throws that Alex Smith can't make.

[HumanCockroach]

You are some smart guys but you weren't paying attention very well late in the season to the Chiefs offense last year to be making the comments you are about Smith. The Chiefs finished the season scoring 35 or more points in 5 of their last 7 games, four of them over 40 points. In the playoff loss to the Colts Smith was 30 of 46 for 378 yards, 4 touchdowns, no picks, and a 119 QBR. He also rushed 8 times for 57 yards, a 7.1 average ypc. And that was in spite of losing his top 2 running backs including all world Jamaal Charles early in the game.

Reid is developing Smith and Carl Peterson is wanting to lock him up with a long term deal. And his arm is looking a lot better now that he has a coach who trusts him.

Manning I agree has lost his velocity completely and would be cooked if the officials would call the illegal picks which account for many of his completions. I wont quibble any more about who would have fared better against our defense, probably none of the above as focused as they were. But I think the 9ers will rue the day they handed the keys to the Escalade to a tatted up punk with his hat on backwards and sent the real NFL field general on their roster packing. Maybe some of them already do.................

The Chiefs broke 35 points 3 out of 16 games, 4 out of 17 if you would like to include the Colts WC loss. Not sure what team you were watching, but it was not the chiefs. Link provided for their scores.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/schedule-and-ev ... edule.html

[Hawktawk]

I got my stats from a KC website and they were obviously wrong. Still its a little ridiculous to pooh pooh putting up 56 points on any team. Yeah Charles had a great game vs the Raiders, and YAC happens. But Smith wasn't a potted plant.He obviously got the ball to the right guy. People say the same chit about our guy RW because he doesn't always put up eye popping numbers

.And Charles MISSED the playoff game after being a huge part of the game plan and Smith still played excellent. It is a fact that the KC offense was much more productive in the second half of the season. And watching KC games including some losses I saw plenty of beautifully thrown deep balls by Smith that were flat out dropped by receivers. I think hes going to continue to have success in KC for a few years.

But my point is that I believe the 9ers were better with Smith, or at a minimum Hairball made the switch very prematurely. It looked horrible, benching a guy for having a concussion. Maybe that's one reason why it is being reported that among "name and face" players his act is wearing thin, as well as the FO.
IMO Kap has peaked. He's Randall Cunningham, Mike Vick, Vince Young. Add in RG3. Hes an unbelievable athlete who likes to run all the time. He has a huge arm. But he is not a good QB when it matters the most and I don't think he will ever win it all. I sure hope not. I'm rooting for a total meltdown. Then maybe in a few years we can go hang our billboard in Frisco except they will be so irrelevant it wont be worth the bother.

[HumanCockroach]

I don't know, what I see is Smith at his absolute best, and an exceedingly young Kaepernik, who still has a ton of room to grow and the time to get there. Smith IMHO is a very good QB, but, that said, he isn't a "great" QB, and I honestly don't believe he ever will be. The jury is still out on Kaepernik IMHO and I'm not sure anyone can accurately decide what his career will look like when everything is said and done.

At this point, if I add in the bonuses of each QB, I guess I would place Smith above Kap at this point, slightly, but I'm not sure if Smith has the ability to win a game on his own, which whether you want to admit it or not, Kap certainly does. If I had to choose between the two, Kaps ceiling would win out for me.

[Hawktawk]

I don't know, what I see is Smith at his absolute best, and an exceedingly young Kaepernik, who still has a ton of room to grow and the time to get there. Smith IMHO is a very good QB, but, that said, he isn't a "great" QB, and I honestly don't believe he ever will be. The jury is still out on Kaepernik IMHO and I'm not sure anyone can accurately decide what his career will look like when everything is said and done.

At this point, if I add in the bonuses of each QB, I guess I would place Smith above Kap at this point, slightly, but I'm not sure if Smith has the ability to win a game on his own, which whether you want to admit it or not, Kap certainly does. If I had to choose between the two, Kaps ceiling would win out for me.

One other factor is that Kap is 4 years younger. The ceiling and who might have reached it is the huge question though, particularly for the 9ers.

If you compare Smith and Kap for the 2013 season its almost like they are the same guy.
Smith 23 TDs 7 picks 3313 yards 431 yards rushing
Kap 21 TDs 8 picks 3197 yards 524 yards rushing
But Smith was the main player change on a 2-14 team from the year before. More telling is that from week 8 to seasons end he threw 20 TDs with only 3 picks. His increased
production coincided with the injuries neutering the Chiefs defense and his increasing familiarity with a very complicated offense.

Kap was on a SB team that had gotten there in part by Alex Smith completing 70 percent of his passes for a 109 qbr and a 7-1-1 record in 9 starts in 2012 before getting benched.
Kap has some impressive weapons and a filthy defense behind him. His offensive line is far better than KC's and superior to Seattle's for that matter. Yet he regressed badly in his second season IMO. So we will see, I hope the trend continues:()

[kalibane]

That's exactly my point Hawk. You're not paying attention. Alex Smith had 290 yards pasing in that game. 195 of them came from Charles on dump offs and screens 165 of those 195 yards were AFTER THE CATCH. 8 catches travled an average of less than 4 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. that is not great Quarterbacking that's all Jamal Charles. The Raiders put on a clinic on how to not defend screen passes. They looked like a highschool team out there. The Chiefs scored 56 in that game. Here's how it happened.

49 yard screen pass to Jamal Charles. (1 play drive) 7
39 yard screen pass to Jamal Charles. (7 play 68 yard drive) 14
47 yard INT return by Eric Berry 21
1 yard run Jamal Charles ( 5 yard total 2 play drive) 28
16 yard (short) pass to Jamal Charles (1 play drive) 35
71 yard swing pass to Jamal Charles (3 play drive) 42
6 yard pass to Sean McGrath (28 yard, 4 play drive)
17 yard run Knile Davis (49 yard 4 play drive)

You obviously did not watch that game or even the highlights to that game because Alex Smith only orchestrated one actual drive the entire day and more than 2/3 rds of the yardage in that one "drive" came on a screen pass and a run by Jamal Charles. Smith only threw 2 balls all day that went further than 10 yards in the air all game. I'm about 99% certain that you couldn't find another game in NFL history (not an exaggeration) where the QB threw 5 TD passes and had less to do with the score than this game Tim Tebow could have scored 50 points in that game (also not an exaggeration). That game was all about Jamal Charles, a short field and Oakland's terrible defense.

And no Hawk... people don't say the same things about Russell Wilson because Russell Wilson has the ability to make big plays down the field and outside the numbers. Those plenty of deep throws you saw Alex Smith make, must have been in your dreams because Smith ranked 29th in yards per attempt behind guys like Geno Smith and Christian Ponder. Just ahead of Brandon Wheedon.

Stop looking at box scores man. Smith is an accurate, efficient QB. But he has a weak arm that limits your route concepts. Not as big a deal in Andy Reid's west coast offense but it's a problem in most other systems. That's why they chose Kaep over him. Because good defenses can pack the middle of the field and crowd underneath routes knowing that Smith can't beat them over the top or to the outside, and furthermore he won't even really try.

[HumanCockroach]

You know Kal, I am not so sure he can't make those throws, in my mind, it is that he WON'T make those throws, he is an upgraded version of TJak IMO. Will not make the throw to kill a teams chance, but tends also to not make the throw, that can and does win games. He is a smart, capable, somewhat mobile QB. He simply refuses to take a chance from time to time even when NEEDED. I am all for ball security, but sometimes you have to let your receivers go up and make a play ( especially when one of them is named Bowe, who for all his drops can make amazing catches in traffic).

Add to that that he SELDOM throws a receiver "open" and I think that is a main reason why his ceiling has been reached, I just don't see him improving. Kap, is inconsistent, but also has that ability. Smith isn't the next coming of Johnny U, but he is a legitimate starter. Which is all Reid's system needs.

[Hawktawk]

Again Kal, I'm not saying Smith has a cannon, he doesn't, but later in the season he definitely threw some longer balls, surprisingly so. A lot of them were dropped, especially in both the Denver games and the home loss to the Chargers, although Smith went toe to toe with Rivers in that one.

The entire KC offense was so pedestrian starting the year it skewed the stats all season but the numbers for Smith from week 8 on were about as good as any in the league except for Manning, and lets don't get started on YAC with that washed up shell.I think at this point Smith has a much stronger arm.

I didn't watch the Raiders game.Charles is a freak.And screen passes aren't that easy to complete sometimes. Hass never really figured it out.

But a smart QB is going to take whats there. A dumb QB is going to throw it to a mediocre reciever being guarded by the best CB in the league with the season on the line.Thats my main point.

[kalibane]

Smith and TJack have two different weakness but the same mindset. Smith's issue is arm strength. He absolutely cannot drive the ball outside the numbers and he's smart enough to know he can't so he doesn't try. TJack has the arm but he can't place the ball accurately and so he turns into a check down machine when there is decent coverage. Same result but different reason.

Smith ain't Ryan Fitzpatrick but he has a weak arm. It's his biggest weakness as a QB.

[HumanCockroach]

That's fair I guess, though it kind of plays into the "can't throw a receiver open" comment. QB's with weaker arms can indeed complete those passes, but it takes an anticipation that I believe Smith lacks ( as well as Tjack). My point wasn't that he can't make the throw, it's that he chooses not to, whether that be lack of arm strength or lack of anticipation really doesn't make much difference, if he can't or won't the result is the same..

[Eaglehawk]

I remember last season when people implied here that RW didn't have a canon.
Now its Smith. Just because he does not throw the long ball often, does not mean that he does not have a canon.

[kalibane]

People saying that about Wilson were idiots. He's in the top 10 in arm strength as far as Starters in the NFL. Smith is in the bottom 10. Yes you can work around it, especially in the offense he's in currently, but Alex Smith would be a pure game manager (even though I hate the term) in the Seahawks Offense and he'd be completely inneffective in say the Cardinals offense, and it's because of his arm.

Wilson has enough arm for any offense.

I have to say it's kind of funny watching people stick up for Alex Smith like this but totally dismiss Phillip Rivers this last season.

[Hawktawk]

People saying that about Wilson were idiots. He's in the top 10 in arm strength as far as Starters in the NFL. Smith is in the bottom 10. Yes you can work around it, especially in the offense he's in currently, but Alex Smith would be a pure game manager (even though I hate the term) in the Seahawks Offense and he'd be completely inneffective in say the Cardinals offense, and it's because of his arm.

Wilson has enough arm for any offense.

I have to say it's kind of funny watching people stick up for Alex Smith like this but totally dismiss Phillip Rivers this last season.

No argument there, Wilson has a great arm, accurate too. And hes one of the most versatile qbs in the league with his arm. He has the back shoulder, the missile on the slant or in the seam, and that beautiful perfect catch-able rainbow over the top like the one he threw to Baldwin in the SB. He also throws a mean jump pass and has the little second baseman flip in traffic. Add his elusiveness hes just a top QB period.

Rivers is a stud and had a great season last year. Hes had a few of them and is one of the fiercest most mentally tough competitors anywhere.

Ive consistently defended Alex Smith, i think his arm is underrated and his in game decision making and timely scrambling much more so. Andy Reid's endorsement says a lot.

Kap is Adonis body, brain by Wal mart. He will always find a way to screw it up.

[monkey]

Alex Smith can't throw deep just like Peyton Manning can't throw deep. There is zero chance that Smith could have completed the TD pass to Anquan Boldin that barely made it over Earl Thomas. If Alex Smith is in that game the Corners don't have to worry about getting beaten deep and Kam Chanceller just sits on the crossing stuff all

That's probably true, though I think Smith has the arm strength to throw the deep ball in a way that Manning never could. Still though I think you are probably right about that.
One thing though. Smith also probably wouldn't turn over the ball THREE TIMES IN THE FOURTH QUARTER ALONE!
Laughing at Kaepernick for that never gets old!

I wonder if Smith would throw just 11 picks in a season with over half of them coming against the Seahawks.
Personally I think that Kaepernick is Michael Vick, nothing more. For all intents and purposes, they are essentially the same player, with the same problem...they just aren't good enough in the passing game.
I hope the Niners lock up Kaepernick LOOOOONG term to a HUUUUUUGE contract! I'd love to see many more seasons of turnovers every time they play the Seahawks.

[c_hawkbob]

Kap is asking $18M/year. Personally I think he needs to show more consistency under pressure befor he gets that big a contract, but the Niners will probably give it to him.

As for Smith, there is not an NFL throw he's not capable of. His "conservative" label is part coaching, part scheme and part being risk averse in his decision making (which is born of his first 5 years as a Niner, he was a gunslinger in college).

[kalibane]

Gunslinger is a mentality not a physical trait. Ryan Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger, he still might have the weakest arm among NFL starters. It's a mistake to remember the rainbow deep balls that weak armed QBs throw as evidence that they have a big enough arm.

Technically speaking every NFL QB can get the ball down field. It's the outside the hash throws that really tell the tale and Smith can't drive those throws in against tight coverage. Now props to him for being smart enough to realize his limitations because the afore mentioned Fitzpatrick still tries to make those throws and they get picked.

Being conservative is all on Alex Smith also. He had the same coach as Kaepernick and they never took shots down the field or outside the numbers with Smith. With Kaep it's a big part of their play book. Smith was a big part of why Crabtree never was that productive and then he all of a sudden took off when Kaep took snaps.

The playbook didn't change. Kaep can just work the routes outside the numbers and Smith couldn't.

[c_hawkbob]

Gunslinger is a mentality not a physical trait. Ryan Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger, he still might have the weakest arm among NFL starters. It's a mistake to remember the rainbow deep balls that weak armed QBs throw as evidence that they have a big enough arm.

Technically speaking every NFL QB can get the ball down field. It's the outside the hash throws that really tell the tale and Smith can't drive those throws in against tight coverage. Now props to him for being smart enough to realize his limitations because the afore mentioned Fitzpatrick still tries to make those throws and they get picked.

Being conservative is all on Alex Smith also. He had the same coach as Kaepernick and they never took shots down the field or outside the numbers with Smith. With Kaep it's a big part of their play book. Smith was a big part of why Crabtree never was that productive and then he all of a sudden took off when Kaep took snaps.

The playbook didn't change. Kaep can just work the routes outside the numbers and Smith couldn't.

If you're replying to me Kal you need to reread my post. I used the term gunslinger in the context you "corrected" me to, I also said Alex's risk avers decision making was born of his first 5 years as a Niner, a period over which his coaching was far from the same as Kap had.

If you were a Utes fan while Smith was in college you wouldn't for a second question his physical capabilities or his (at the time) gunslinger mentality. He wasn't the first player taken in his draft on the strength of a questionable college career or workouts for pro scouts. Gil Brant called his workout the most perfect he'd ever seen of a QB prospect.

[NorthHawk]

I remember when he came out of college.
He was said to be a great passer and had all the throws.
Like Bob said, after 5 years or more of different OCs, he was a changed QB.
He became far more conservative than he was in College and it looked to me like he lost a lot of confidence in his abilities.
Basically his experience in SF ruined what might have been a very good QB and turned him into a good QB if he's in the right system.
Maybe Reid can instill a better sense of confidence and he will start to attempt all of the throws he has been avoiding the last few years.

[RiverDog]

Smith and TJack have two different weakness but the same mindset. Smith's issue is arm strength. He absolutely cannot drive the ball outside the numbers and he's smart enough to know he can't so he doesn't try. TJack has the arm but he can't place the ball accurately and so he turns into a check down machine when there is decent coverage. Same result but different reason.

Smith ain't Ryan Fitzpatrick but he has a weak arm. It's his biggest weakness as a QB.

I just want to interject something into this discussion and I don't mean to divert the thread, but I always felt that TJack's biggest problem was his indecisiveness and refusal to take even the slightest risk of an interception. I think that's why he chose to check the ball down, not a lack of confidence in being able to make a throw except as it relates to taking a risk of having it picked off. I didn't think his accuracy was that much of an issue IMO. And just to defend him for a bit, the guy certainly didn't have much of a receiving corps to work with, either. At least Russell had Rice in 2012 and Tate in 2013.

[HumanCockroach]

Smith and TJack have two different weakness but the same mindset. Smith's issue is arm strength. He absolutely cannot drive the ball outside the numbers and he's smart enough to know he can't so he doesn't try. TJack has the arm but he can't place the ball accurately and so he turns into a check down machine when there is decent coverage. Same result but different reason.

Smith ain't Ryan Fitzpatrick but he has a weak arm. It's his biggest weakness as a QB.

I just want to interject something into this discussion and I don't mean to divert the thread, but I always felt that TJack's biggest problem was his indecisiveness and refusal to take even the slightest risk of an interception. I think that's why he chose to check the ball down, not a lack of confidence in being able to make a throw except as it relates to taking a risk of having it picked off. I didn't think his accuracy was that much of an issue IMO. And just to defend him for a bit, the guy certainly didn't have much of a receiving corps to work with, either. At least Russell had Rice in 2012 and Tate in 2013.

Jackson had all three ( 4 if you want to count Miller) in 2011. To be fair though, Rice got injured ( as usual) Miller was being asked to block a LOT, Baldwin was consistent and good, Tate was sporadic and needed time to mature. The names were indeed the same as far as the receiver core goes, though I wouldn't profess it as equal to the one Wilson just won a SB with, do to inexperience in the system and in their careers.