Kaschoggi murder

[Hawktawk]

Of all the despicable things trump has done his handling of the brutal murder of a us resident and Washington post columnist with the order coming from the crown prince is maybe the worst .

[RiverDog]

Of all the despicable things trump has done his handling of the brutal murder of a us resident and Washington post columnist with the order coming from the crown prince is maybe the worst .

I'm not sure if I'd classify it as the "most dsepicable" thing he's done, but I was not happy with how he handled the issue. It's like so many things with him. He believes what he wants to believe, and will rationalize away any information that's counter to what he's talked himself into believing. He cannot look at things with an objective mind and let the facts dictate his thinking.

[c_hawkbob]

This is what running America like a corporation looks like. It disgusts me to the core but it's what people voted for.

[RiverDog]

This is what running America like a corporation looks like. It disgusts me to the core but it's what people voted for.

I'm not defending Trump, but other POTUS's from both parties have spoken out of two sides of their mouths when it comes to denoucing something like this in public yet supporting them otherwise. Except for the personal outrage, this is no different.

[Aseahawkfan]

You were fine when Trump, Reagan, Clinton, and Obama were ignoring Saudi Arabia's evil before Trump, but because you want to blame Trump for everything you blame this on Trump? You been asleep this long.

15 of 19 Saudis did 9/11
Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi.
Saudi Arabia funds the "rebels" in Syria and Yemen, which is nothing more than religious strife between the Wahhabi Sunni and the Iran-supported Shia.
Saudia Arabia has funded more terrorism against the United States and other nations than any other nation in the world for decades, yet we're putting Venezuela on the terrorist watch list.
Read on the billions Saudi Arabia funnels into Islamic nations to foment chaos
They bought 300,000 Somali women as "servants."
They fund Islamic extremism in Somalia to prevent the Somalis from accessing their oil off the coast which apparently they've determined is connected to their underground oil reserves.
The list of Saudi crimes is endless.

U.S. presidents have overlooked this since after World War 2. We made a deal with the devil. And now you want to act like this is the first you've heard of it and Trump is at fault?

Sorry, Trump is just telling Americans the truth about scumbag Saudi Arabia. It pisses me off to no end. I literally can't figure out how to get off oil other than to go live in the woods like an caveman. Saudi Arabia only accepting U.S. dollars for their oil maintains our power as the world reserve currency. I guarantee you that Trump was told "Don't screw with Saudi Arabia" or you will destroy the economy and lose the White House.

You will notice that almost no one is saying a damn thing about Saudi Arabia. Not Democrats or Republicans. They just want it to go away because we sold our values out when it comes to Saudi Arabia for cheap oil and stability in the Middle East. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudi royalty is laughing at us saying, "What are these stupid Americans going to do? Their people will scream like whining children if the gas prices rise too high and they can't drive their SUVs or have to pay too much for electricity. What are these fat, pathetic Americans going to do? Go f*** yourself."

That's where we're at with Saudi Arabia. Not a single president or politician or what not of either party wants to even bother with it as it is political suicide.

[Aseahawkfan]

This is what running America like a corporation looks like. It disgusts me to the core but it's what people voted for.

C-bob, you are one person I did not expect to pretend to be this ignorant on a subject has been the same nearly your entire life. You know both parties, all their politicians, have sold us out to Saudi Arabia years ago. The only thing you're getting from Trump is honesty versus the usual lies from the Reagans, Clintons, Obamas, Bushes, and the entire lot of them.

If you want to see how bad we sold out to Saudi Arabia, spend a few hours reading on that nation. A Saudi national raped a 13 year old boy in a hotel, we sent him home. I have been calling out Saudi Arabia for years. No one in America in power will do a single thing about that nation because Saudi Arabia controls oil prices and has peace agreement with Israel. That's what we pay these lives for including 3000 Americans on 9/11 and a bunch in those wars that didn't even target the main nation responsible for the attack. It's just going to keep on as it is. A Saudi Prince could kill your family for fun and you'd have trouble finding a Republican or Democrat willing to do a damn thing about it other than express outrage.

Now [b]Hawktawk[/b[ has started a topic on a nation that is like pushing the hate button for me. I want no alliance with that nation. I want to cut off from them. They are the poisonous snake of the Middle East feeding us oil from their fangs poisoning our nation and corrupting us to keep our oil-fueled economy going. I despise that nation. I hate being in thrall to Saudi Arabia.

[RiverDog]

You were fine when Trump, Reagan, Clinton, and Obama were ignoring Saudi Arabia's evil before Trump, but because you want to blame Trump for everything you blame this on Trump? You been asleep this long.

That's what I was eluding to in my previous post. Yes, Trump's actions are despicable and his statements are non sensical. But we've been in bed with the Saudi's for decades, and their past behavior isn't any different from what we've seen in this incident. It's why much of the Middle East despises us, because we set aside our morals when it comes to the Saudi's because they have the oil that keeps us fat, rich Americans driving our SUV's.

[Hawktawk]

Not sure what the rant from Asea was all about. You're preaching to the choir buddy.When Steve Bannon wrote trump's travel ban with a crayon that left people stranded at airports and banned many countries with no history of domestic terror in the united states I said what about Saudi Arabia? My number is 19 of 20 hijackers and of course Bin Laden.

I liked and supported GW but was disgusted members of Bin Laden's family in the US were allowed to violate the no fly ban in the immediate aftermath of their attacks and get the hell out. I never really understood why there were no serious repercussions against Saudi Arabia for what was obviously an attack that had to be funded with deep pockets to sustain these terrorists on US soil while they prepared. The US has had a reprehensible role with letting Saudi Arabia off the hook on everything from womens rights to you name it.And its always been about money and oil.
All true.

But Trump takes the hand painted raindrop for his handling of certainly the most transparent nakedly arrogant atrocity committed by the crown prince. Since the get go on this mystery Trump has run interference for a man Jarred boy had just spent a week palling around with in the royal kingdom shortly before the murder. Saudi Arabia has given about 10 different explanations for what happened from a flat out denial to now 17 indictments including members of Bin Salams personal team for supposedly drugging Khashoggi when in fact he is on tape being garrotted to death, a tape trump says he doesn't want to listen to.

When it became clear that Khashoggi had been murdered in a consulate IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY Trump immediately took a two pronged tack and repeats it over and over and over to this day. We don't want to lose all these military sales( which he drastically inflates the value of) and this guy wasn't a US citizen.
What he leaves out is what he said on tape from the campaign stump which is "I love the saudis, they give me millions of dollars, They stay in my hotels, they buy my apartments" Pressed on those comments recently he said."I've got nothing with them, I get no money from them". Never mind that his profits spiked dramatically( 13 million) at the Trump hotel in Manhattan last Dec when the crown prince visited despite the fact most of the entourage stayed elsewhere due to the size of the rooms being inadequate which was inadvertently leaked by the hotel manager.
See with former presidents one could at least have a fig leaf of credibility saying they pampered Saudi Arabia because it was good for america. But with this reprehensible soulless man its never been about america at all. Its about Make Trump Great Again. Can't wait to see this pigs finances.

[c_hawkbob]

This is what running America like a corporation looks like. It disgusts me to the core but it's what people voted for.

C-bob, you are one person I did not expect to pretend to be this ignorant on a subject has been the same nearly your entire life. You know both parties, all their politicians, have sold us out to Saudi Arabia years ago. The only thing you're getting from Trump is honesty versus the usual lies from the Reagans, Clintons, Obamas, Bushes, and the entire lot of them.

If you want to see how bad we sold out to Saudi Arabia, spend a few hours reading on that nation. A Saudi national raped a 13 year old boy in a hotel, we sent him home. I have been calling out Saudi Arabia for years. No one in America in power will do a single thing about that nation because Saudi Arabia controls oil prices and has peace agreement with Israel. That's what we pay these lives for including 3000 Americans on 9/11 and a bunch in those wars that didn't even target the main nation responsible for the attack. It's just going to keep on as it is. A Saudi Prince could kill your family for fun and you'd have trouble finding a Republican or Democrat willing to do a damn thing about it other than express outrage.

Now [b]Hawktawk[/b[ has started a topic on a nation that is like pushing the hate button for me. I want no alliance with that nation. I want to cut off from them. They are the poisonous snake of the Middle East feeding us oil from their fangs poisoning our nation and corrupting us to keep our oil-fueled economy going. I despise that nation. I hate being in thrall to Saudi Arabia.

I may not be an expert in Middle East politics but I'm not 'ignorant" of anything Asea. And you're jumping to a whole lot of conclusions based on a single (undeniably accurate) sentence. I'm aware of the US' history regarding overlooking incidences of ally's human right issues when "national interests" (most commonly oil) are involved and I've always been against it regardless of party politics.

This was just a perfect example of what I consider to be the real problem with the country; not Democrat or Republican control of Washington, but corporate control. as far as I'm concerned "us and them" ain't about left and right but about corporations and billionaires vs us working folks.

[RiverDog]

This was just a perfect example of what I consider to be the real problem with the country; not Democrat or Republican control of Washington, but corporate control. as far as I'm concerned "us and them" ain't about left and right but about corporations and billionaires vs us working folks.

You might want to look for a better example of "corporate control" than our relationship with the Saudi's and their oil. American oil companies would like nothing better than for us to ban imports of Middle Eastern oil as doing so would raise the price and with it, the profits of domestic oil companies as they'd ramp up their own production to make up for the difference.

The reason we've been in bed with the Saudis is due to the economic realities of the 2nd half of the 20th century and the first two decades of this century. I don't like it anymore than you do, but our coziness with the Saudis has been and remains a necessary evil.

But that doesn't mean that Trump has to behave in the manner he has been, ignoring our own intel and wrapping himself around the Crown Prince.

[c_hawkbob]

This was just a perfect example of what I consider to be the real problem with the country; not Democrat or Republican control of Washington, but corporate control. as far as I'm concerned "us and them" ain't about left and right but about corporations and billionaires vs us working folks.

You might want to look for a better example of "corporate control" than our relationship with the Saudi's and their oil. American oil companies would like nothing better than for us to ban imports of Middle Eastern oil as doing so would raise the price and with it, the profits of domestic oil companies as they'd ramp up their own production to make up for the difference.

The reason we've been in bed with the Saudis is due to the economic realities of the 2nd half of the 20th century and the first two decades of this century. I don't like it anymore than you do, but our coziness with the Saudis has been and remains a necessary evil.

But that doesn't mean that Trump has to behave in the manner he has been, ignoring our own intel and wrapping himself around the Crown Prince.

Oh for chrissakes, I'm not submitting assignments (and certainly not accepting them!) for grading here. I merely said that Trump's position; specifically his "maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we don't know" quote about the Khashoggi murder after the CIA concluded he definitely did and "the Kingdom agreed to spend and invest $450 billion in the United States. This is a record amount of money. It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, tremendous economic development, and much additional wealth for the United States. Of the $450 billion, $110 billion will be spent on the purchase of military equipment from Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and many other great U.S. defense contractors" justification for not acting on it was in and of itself a perfect example of making policy decisions the way a CEO would rather than as a President should.

If you've got better examples or are of the opinion that the same has been true of other administrations in the past I don't really care. It's just obfuscation.

[RiverDog]

Oh for chrissakes, I'm not submitting assignments (and certainly not accepting them!) for grading here. I merely said that Trump's position; specifically his "maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we don't know" quote about the Khashoggi murder after the CIA concluded he definitely did and "the Kingdom agreed to spend and invest $450 billion in the United States. This is a record amount of money. It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, tremendous economic development, and much additional wealth for the United States. Of the $450 billion, $110 billion will be spent on the purchase of military equipment from Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and many other great U.S. defense contractors" justification for not acting on it was in and of itself a perfect example of making policy decisions the way a CEO would rather than as a President should.

If you've got better examples or are of the opinion that the same has been true of other administrations in the past I don't really care. It's just obfuscation.

OK, no need to get upset. I simply misread your statement. I took it to mean a generalized statement about our long term relationship with the Saudis, not specific to the Kaschoggi murder. After all, you did start a new paragraph, so I interpreted that you were changing gears.

I don't necessarily disagree with your statements, except for your assertation that Trump is "making decisions the way a CEO would." IMO most CEO's are one helluva lot more sensitive to humanitarian issues than our POTUS is. They have to be, or else their market will turn on them. Donald Trump is NOT a typical 21st century CEO. Paul Allen was essentially a CEO.

What I think we can agree on is that typical of DJT on so may issues, he's pulling chit out of his arse in an attempt to justify his failure to hold Saudi Arabia, and specifically the prince, accountable for the murder of Kaschoggi.

[Aseahawkfan]

Most presidents aren't dumb enough to rub Saudi Arabian bribery right in our face. I don't know if I think well of the honesty or just consider it stupid. The reality is oil prices rise and gas prices rise, then Americans will will cry like babies rather than do the right thing. They'll vote in some new Dem or Republican that will put their head in the sand about Saudi Arabia, but at least not rub it in our faces that they're bribing us with oil and a peace agreement with Israel so we'll overlook all their funding of terrorists, oppression of their people, buying "servants" that are really slaves from other nations like Somalia or The Philippines, funding political dissent in other nations like Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Egypt, and the list can go on, and just generally acting like complete scumbags we treat like "allies" for cheap oil.

I despise the leadership of that nation. No nation has turned America into more of an whore than Saudi Arabia. We are prostituting our values and our arms to them for cheap oil. I hate it.

The sad thing is even Europe seems to be shrugging their shoulders about Saudi Arabia not wanting to upset oil prices. The entire world seems to be ignoring this other than Turkey who is trying to take power from Saudi Arabia. I have zero belief that Turkey is dispensing this information out of the goodness of their heart or caring about their fellow man. This is scumbag power play by Turkey to challenge Saudi dominance in Middle East affairs trying to break the relationship with the United States. We're involved with both these scumbags. I don't want to be involved with those dirtbag leaders in that area of the world any longer.

We think Trump is bad? He doesn't hold a candle in scumbaggery to the Saudi "royalty" and Erdogan and his tyranny.

[c_hawkbob]

You really consider "It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs" honesty?

Hundreds of thousand of jobs from this Saudi arms deal?! He's lying out his arse, just like he always is.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="Aseahawkfan"]Most presidents aren't dumb enough to rub Saudi Arabian bribery right in our face. I don't know if I think well of the honesty or just consider it stupid.

Well said Asea. But make no mistake. ITS STUPID. I heard a republican talking head say ruefully this morning "trump says the quiet part out loud".

Its no different than him blurting out his boast about how much money he was getting from saudi arabia as candidate trump which is biting him hard now.Well how about "you can grab em by the p##ssy" Or how about "russia, if you're listening i hope you can find the missing 30,000 E mails". Bob Mueller has reportedly submitted that as one of the questions he wants answered BTW ie, what prompted you to make a statement like that?

My question would be to his rabid base, what did you find attractive about suckling up to Russia and Saudi arabia from your presidential candidate?

This guy is dumb as a post, clearly in severe mental decline based on film from a decade or more back compared to his speech patterns and lack of mental acuity today.

[RiverDog]

You really consider "It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs" honesty?

Hundreds of thousand of jobs from this Saudi arms deal?! He's lying out his arse, just like he always is.

That's a good example of the major issue I have with Trump, ie his dishonesty. He'll twist facts, make up stuff (like terrorists within the migrant caravan) without the slightest bit of evidence, and tell outright lies to make his position look reasonable. Then when someone calls him on it, he'll just call it fake news or complain about liberal media sources. I've never seen anything even remotely close to the tactics Trump uses to promote his positions and/or his agenda.

I don't necessarily disagree with Trump regarding our business dealings with the Saudis, but even on issues where I agree with him on, I feel inclined not to support him as I do not want to reward him for his lying. We need honest debates, not ones filled with lies and misinformation, and he's the all time biggest source of misinformation that I've ever witnessed either inside or outside of politics. I want to see his entire agenda stopped in its tracks until we can get someone a little more trustworthy in the Executive Branch.

[idhawkman]

Oh for chrissakes, I'm not submitting assignments (and certainly not accepting them!) for grading here. I merely said that Trump's position; specifically his "maybe he did, maybe he didn't, we don't know" quote about the Khashoggi murder after the CIA concluded he definitely did and "the Kingdom agreed to spend and invest $450 billion in the United States. This is a record amount of money. It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, tremendous economic development, and much additional wealth for the United States. Of the $450 billion, $110 billion will be spent on the purchase of military equipment from Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and many other great U.S. defense contractors" justification for not acting on it was in and of itself a perfect example of making policy decisions the way a CEO would rather than as a President should.

If you've got better examples or are of the opinion that the same has been true of other administrations in the past I don't really care. It's just obfuscation.

I think you've laid it out pretty good Cbob. Here's the problem. Substitute Russia, China, Mexico or any other country and you have the same exact problem. So what do we do with it? Do we isolate from the world because the rest of the world is ruthless and not as advanced as us in their judicial prudence? I'm not sure that's the right answer either. I'm not advocating one way or the other but every country outside of ours has major differences with us. I don't think we can mandate they all fall in line with our values and beliefs, otherwise we look like the dictators. I do think we still have to find a way to make this all work because the globe is only so big.

[idhawkman]

You really consider "It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs" honesty?

Hundreds of thousand of jobs from this Saudi arms deal?! He's lying out his arse, just like he always is.

C'mon Bob, that's not fair. How do you know if it is true or not? Have you ever considered what $450B would create? Don't forget the barbers, grocers, hardware, home builders, etc that all get employed for the factory workers that are directly employed by the $450b. Remember there's hundreds of jobs created to support all of those people, too.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think you've laid it out pretty good Cbob. Here's the problem. Substitute Russia, China, Mexico or any other country and you have the same exact problem. So what do we do with it? Do we isolate from the world because the rest of the world is ruthless and not as advanced as us in their judicial prudence? I'm not sure that's the right answer either. I'm not advocating one way or the other but every country outside of ours has major differences with us. I don't think we can mandate they all fall in line with our values and beliefs, otherwise we look like the dictators. I do think we still have to find a way to make this all work because the globe is only so big.

I knew you would sell your supposed "values" out to support the scumbag in office. Like I said, I don't believe you care about other people. Saudi Arabia was responsible for 9/11 and you want to ignore it to support Trump. They support and teach the form of Islam and created the vast majority of Wahhabi terrorist we deal with. You're just fine with Yemen, Somalia, and other such nations on the terrorist watch list, but not the country that 15 or 19 terrorists that committed 9/11 come from? You think their Saudi citizenship didn't help them get in the United States? You really think that didn't help them?

Fact is our government has proven that you can murder Americans and they will overlook it for cheap oil. It is literally a recorded fact for decades. You're ok with this? You're ok with a nation heavily responsible for 9/11 not being on a terrorist watch list? I want to hear you say you're ok with it or melee-mouth your away around it.

Then at the same time tell us "you care about America and the people in the world."

[burrrton]

"Hundreds of thousand of jobs from this Saudi arms deal?! He's lying out his arse, just like he always is.

C'mon Bob, that's not fair. How do you know if it is true or not? Have you ever considered what $450B would create? Don't forget the barbers, grocers, hardware, home builders, etc that all get employed for the factory workers that are directly employed by the $450b. Remember there's hundreds of jobs created to support all of those people, too.

This is another great example why nobody takes this incessant "HE LIES!" stuff seriously anymore. Nobody seems to be able to dial it down from 11.

A dopey and/or unrealistic prediction (I don't know if it was or wasn't, and I don't care) isn't a lie, and no rational reader misses that, and the person yelling "liar" only looks less credible for having done so.

[burrrton]

Saudi Arabia was responsible for 9/11 and you want to ignore it to support Trump.

A terrorist being Saudi doesn't make Saudi Arabia "responsible" for 9/11.

[Hawktawk]

Lots of people, a majority in fact a significant majority of voters think Trump is not honest or trustworthy. Plenty of people have a problem with it. 11 is an appropriate response level to a lying scumbag president. But keep carrying his water Burrton. You're really good at it.

[idhawkman]

I knew you would sell your supposed "values" out to support the scumbag in office. Like I said, I don't believe you care about other people. Saudi Arabia was responsible for 9/11 and you want to ignore it to support Trump. They support and teach the form of Islam and created the vast majority of Wahhabi terrorist we deal with. You're just fine with Yemen, Somalia, and other such nations on the terrorist watch list, but not the country that 15 or 19 terrorists that committed 9/11 come from? You think their Saudi citizenship didn't help them get in the United States? You really think that didn't help them?

Fact is our government has proven that you can murder Americans and they will overlook it for cheap oil. It is literally a recorded fact for decades. You're ok with this? You're ok with a nation heavily responsible for 9/11 not being on a terrorist watch list? I want to hear you say you're ok with it or melee-mouth your away around it.

Then at the same time tell us "you care about America and the people in the world."

You are well over the line here. I have not sold my values out. You need to do research on this guy you are now up in arms about. Did you know he was the mouthpiece for the Saudi intel chief that mysteriously resigned 10 days before 9/11? If anyone is selling out it is you defending this guy.

[RiverDog]

This is another great example why nobody takes this incessant "HE LIES!" stuff seriously anymore. Nobody seems to be able to dial it down from 11.

A dopey and/or unrealistic prediction (I don't know if it was or wasn't, and I don't care) isn't a lie, and no rational reader misses that, and the person yelling "liar" only looks less credible for having done so.

If someone makes a "dopey an/or unrealistic"claim, like CA diverting water to the Pacific Ocean, it's up to him/her to prove that it's true, but instead, we have guys like Idahawk issuing challenges to those that doubt these claims to prove that they're false. It's no different than the allegations in the Kavanaugh hearings: It's up to who ever is making the "dopey/unrealistic" statement to prove that it's true. It's not up to the listener to prove they're false.

And so long as you mentioned credibility, Trump has made so many "dopey/unrealistic" claims that many of us have gotten to the point that we do not accept ANYTHING he says unless it's either backed up with facts or something that aligns with our own logic.

As far as lying goes, I'm not going quite as far as Hawktalk. The definition of a lie is saying something that a person knows to be false. Trump's "dopey/unrealistic" claims happens so often that I honestly think that he makes up stuff then talks himself into believing it, meaning that it's not technically a lie. I'll give Trump the benefit of the doubt and simply call it misinformation.

[RiverDog]

You really consider [i]"It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs" honesty?

Hundreds of thousand of jobs from this Saudi arms deal?! He's lying out his arse, just like he always is.[/i]

C'mon Bob, that's not fair. How do you know if it is true or not? Have you ever considered what $450B would create? Don't forget the barbers, grocers, hardware, home builders, etc that all get employed for the factory workers that are directly employed by the $450b. Remember there's hundreds of jobs created to support all of those people, too.

Where did you get $450B? Trump himself claims it's $110B.

[burrrton]

And so long as you mentioned credibility, Trump has made so many "dopey/unrealistic" claims that many of us have gotten to the point that we do not accept ANYTHING he says unless it's either backed up with facts or something that aligns with our own logic.

I'm with you on this- I'm not claiming Trump has credibility, and you're of course free to not accept anything he says at face value (I don't do that for anyone, in fact).

The problem is preposterous claims aren't lies, so yelling "LIAAAR" about them (and almost literally everything else he says) just creates white noise and normal people start rolling their eyes about it.

[RiverDog]

I'm with you on this- I'm not claiming Trump has credibility, and you're of course free to not accept anything he says at face value (I don't do that for anyone, in fact).

You don't accept what anyone says at face value? Speaking for myself, I'll accept at face value what my wife says, what my daughter says, and what my former boss says, and what my best friends say. In certain situations, I'll accept what some 'experts' say if it's related to their field, such as a doctor or a police officer.

The problem is preposterous claims aren't lies, so yelling "LIAAAR" about them (and almost literally everything else he says) just creates white noise and normal people start rolling their eyes about it.

Preposterous claims most certainly can be lies, if they are untrue and who ever saying them knows that they aren't true.

It's Trump's own damn fault for everyone yelling "liar" whenever he speaks and creating all the white noise you are referring to. He's said so much misinformation, made so many asinine tweets, and created more myths that anytime he says anything, even if they appear reasonable, there are people that will automatically assume what he's saying is false. Just like Pablov's dog, he's been ringing a bell and feeding us, so that now all he has to do is ring the bell and everyone salivates. It's a conditioned response.

[burrrton]

You don't accept what anyone says at face value? Speaking for myself, I'll accept at face value what my wife says, what my daughter says, and what my former boss says, and what my best friends say. In certain situations, I'll accept what some 'experts' say if it's related to their field, such as a doctor or a police officer.

Oh for chrissakes.

Preposterous claims most certainly can be lies, if they are untrue and who ever saying them knows that they aren't true.

Don't be pedantic. Of course they *can be*, but they're not in and of themselves, and a statement like "this influx of cash will help create huge numbers of jobs" certainly isn't, unlikely or not.

Just like Pablov's dog, he's been ringing a bell and feeding us, so that now all he has to do is ring the bell and everyone salivates. It's a conditioned response.

You're making my point. He no longer needs to actually put food (a lie) out for you- you salivate (yell "LIES LIES LIES RAWR RAWR") regardless.

[RiverDog]

You're making my point. He no longer needs to actually put food (a lie) out for you- you salivate (yell "LIES LIES LIES RAWR RAWR") regardless.

I hope that we're not back to arguing about semantics, but I specifically said that I am not calling Trump a liar as I don't know if it meets the definition, which is knowingly saying something he knows to be false. I am simply saying that his past behavior, such as his shoot-from-the-hip tweets, commenting on subjects that he's not fully informed on, and does so with such regularity that it has conditioned some people (not me) into calling him a liar anytime he opens his cake hole. He only has himself to blame.

[burrrton]

I don't think we disagree, RD, but you're illustrating your position by characterizing it as reacting to stimuli that isn't what you thought it was, and that's my entire point.

By responding like Pavlov's dogs, you're showing everyone you don't care if there's actually food there (you don't care if there's an actual lie), you're going to respond the same regardless.

He tweets, you salivate no matter what's there.

[RiverDog]

I don't think we disagree, RD, but you're illustrating your position by characterizing it as reacting to stimuli that isn't what you thought it was, and that's my entire point.

By responding like Pavlov's dogs, you're showing everyone you don't care if there's actually food there (you don't care if there's an actual lie), you're going to respond the same regardless.

He tweets, you salivate no matter what's there.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I do not feel that I fit the same mold as someone like Hawktalk falls into. I do not assume that everything Trump says is a lie. If he presents information that is supported by facts that I know to be true, I'll believe him. If he says something that hits a chord and makes sense to me, then I'll also believe him.

But here's the catch: If Obama or Bush 43 told me that the Saudi's were going to make an arms deal worth $110B, I'd think that it's probably true and accept what they said as fact or at least based in fact. But if Trump says the exact same thing, I'd question it and have to see the actual numbers before I'd believe him because based on past experiences, I know that he has a habit of not doing his homework before he speaks and just winging it.

[burrrton]

But if Trump says the exact same thing, I'd question it and have to see the actual numbers before I'd believe him because based on past experiences, I know that he has a habit of not doing his homework before he speaks and just winging it.

And I'm right there with ya. I just can't hit caps lock and type "ALL HE DOES IS TEH LIES ARBLE GARBLE!" when he does it, unless it, you know, is actually a lie.

[RiverDog]

And I'm right there with ya. I just can't hit caps lock and type "ALL HE DOES IS TEH LIES ARBLE GARBLE!" when he does it, unless it, you know, is actually a lie.

So why are you attributing the "ALL HE DOES IS LIE" mantra to me? I've specifically said that I'm classifying much of his misinformation as something other than outright lies.

[burrrton]

So why are you attributing the "ALL HE DOES IS LIE" mantra to me?

*sigh* Because you seem to be lumping yourself in with that crowd by accepting non-lies as further proof of his being a liar?

Honestly, though, these back-and-forths get extended so long sometimes that I may be conflating you with some of our more nutty members. Apologies if so.

[RiverDog]

*sigh* Because you seem to be lumping yourself in with that crowd by accepting non-lies as further proof of his being a liar?

Honestly, though, these back-and-forths get extended so long sometimes that I may be conflating you with some of our more nutty members. Apologies if so.

I wasn't asking for an apology. I was merely trying to find out what it was that I said that caused you to draw such conclusions.

IMO Donald Trump is untrustworthy mainly because he is undisciplined and uninformed, which leads to him talking out of his arse. Sometimes people confuse that term with dishonesty, which is a completely different behavior...although I do think he's guilty of that on occasion.

[idhawkman]

If someone makes a "dopey an/or unrealistic"claim, like CA diverting water to the Pacific Ocean, it's up to him/her to prove that it's true, but instead, we have guys like Idahawk issuing challenges to those that doubt these claims to prove that they're false. It's no different than the allegations in the Kavanaugh hearings: It's up to who ever is making the "dopey/unrealistic" statement to prove that it's true. It's not up to the listener to prove they're false.

What a ridiculous statement and you know it. Many presidents make statements all the time and never give proof, e.g. you can keep your doctor if you want to keep them and this will be cheaper. All you have done with not believing anything he says is make my point that all you have to do is control what people hear long enough until they start to believe it. You are being controlled by the MSM which is plain to see now.

[idhawkman]

Where did you get $450B? Trump himself claims it's $110B.

Another attempt to say he's lying I see. The $450B is planned investments in the US by Saudi whereas you are only citing the $110B for the arms. I know it is hard to believe but we do sell more than just arms and people want to build more in the US since Trump took office.

So go ahead and fact check it but I'll save you the hassle of finding another non-existent lie. No it hasn't been spent yet, thus the "PLANNED" spending part of Trump's statment.

[idhawkman]

Preposterous claims most certainly can be lies, if they are untrue and who ever saying them knows that they aren't true.

Wow, parsing words now I see.

It's Trump's own damn fault for everyone yelling "liar" whenever he speaks and creating all the white noise you are referring to. He's said so much misinformation, made so many asinine tweets, and created more myths that anytime he says anything, even if they appear reasonable, there are people that will automatically assume what he's saying is false. Just like Pablov's dog, he's been ringing a bell and feeding us, so that now all he has to do is ring the bell and everyone salivates. It's a conditioned response.

No, it is the media for reporting everything as a lie whether they are or not. The retractions which have been volumous never gets the headline and all you want to remember is the initial report. E.g. I was wiretapped by the Obama administration. Originally reported as an outrageous lie "in a tweet" which has now turned out to be absolutely true.

As to your incessant claims that CA water management was a lie, here's a quote from a story in 2014 on CA water management. I know this is going to be really inconvenient for you to accept but try anyways.

Building (about $2.3 to 3.2 billion) and maintaining (about $10 to $21 million annually) reservoirs and dams is costly, but it provides the state with operational flexibility. For example, they provide drought protection by compensating for the snowpack loss due to higher temperatures, environmental protection by releasing water when needed, and manage floodwaters. Thus while maintaining and building new surface water infrastructure is costly in the short-term, it secures the state’s essential water supply system and offers the opportunity to respond to emergencies.

Here's the link to the article which was written in 2014 - way before Trump even announced to run.

http://uscommonsense.org/research/unsustainable-california-the-top-10-issues-facing-the-golden-state-water-supply/

The bottom line is that much of what he says has backing but you'd never know it by listening only to those outlets that want to paint him as a liar. They did this same thing to "W" about being stupid. The difference is that Trump will fight back whereas "W" just let them label him.

[idhawkman]

I am simply saying that his past behavior, such as his shoot-from-the-hip tweets, commenting on subjects that he's not fully informed on, and does so with such regularity that it has conditioned some people (not me) into calling him a liar anytime he opens his cake hole. He only has himself to blame.

MOST Republicans advocate for transparency but when you actually get it, you don't like it. You'd rather be kept in the dark than to know what the President is thinking, what's he's been told and what he knows. Interesting development there.

[idhawkman]

I wasn't asking for an apology. I was merely trying to find out what it was that I said that caused you to draw such conclusions.

IMO Donald Trump is untrustworthy mainly because he is undisciplined and uninformed, which leads to him talking out of his arse. Sometimes people confuse that term with dishonesty, which is a completely different behavior...although I do think he's guilty of that on occasion.

He probably got it from this quote of yours River:

And so long as you mentioned credibility, Trump has made so many "dopey/unrealistic" claims that many of us have gotten to the point that we do not accept ANYTHING he says unless it's either backed up with facts or something that aligns with our own logic.

Undisciplined and uniformed? Sounds to me you think he's a liar until someone called you out for it. I've alread mentioned that what you view as undisciplined and uniformed many view as "transparent." Again, many of the things that he tweeted, said or what have you have proven to be true but you would have NEVER heard about it if he hadn't bypassed the MSM and tweeted about it. As outraged and incredulous as they pose to be, in the end, they have to retract their stories and increduity when they realize he was right.