Russell “pick 6” Wilson

[The POPE]

Too bad Russell sh*t himself today. The defensive effort has been good enough to win. Yes Russell this one is on you.
That was an elite completion to the Chargers.

The pope

[RiverDog]

I counted 3 avoidable sacks, all drive killers, and 3 overthrows of open receivers.

He had 5 straight good games, hopefully he gets it out of his system.

[RiverDog]

Ugh....this is a terrible comeback drive, taking sacks, not getting out of bounds...

[The POPE]

Short of a miracle (it’s always possible) this has been uuuuugly. When up against a top 5-6-7 QB the QB has to match the opponent. Not happening today...rough stretch coming up, especially with the way Wilson played today. Never know though a miracle is still in play..maybe

Pope

[The POPE]

This is where Russell earns that elite status some have bestowed on him. We shall see.

Pope

[obiken]

1. This was RW's worst game. He missed a guy wide open down the middle.
2. Yeah the pick 6 was bad
3. Carson going out probably cost us the game.
4. He is elite.
5. What's your alternative Pope?

[Anthony]

1. This was RW's worst game. He missed a guy wide open down the middle.
2. Yeah the pick 6 was bad
3. Carson going out probably cost us the game.
4. He is elite.
5. What's your alternative Pope?

He has none he like few other just like to heap all the blame they can on Wilson for everything and anything. Wilson played a bad game, overall, that's true but despite that, we were a drop pass form going into OT. Wilson playing bad, Dropped passes, bad penalties that cost us alot of reasons.

[idhawkman]

This is where Russell earns that elite status some have bestowed on him. We shall see.

Pope

Sorry Pope, but you can't "EARN" elite status when you put your entire team in a dire situation and then you finally start to make up for what you did to put yourself in that position.

RW shat himself today. It is pure and simple as that. Underthrows on 3rd down to multiple open receivers running down the field, sacks on plays you can't afford a sack on, etc. It was all on RW today. The rest of the team did their job, unfortunately, RW decided it wasn't a good day to show up.

[idhawkman]

He has none he like few other just like to heap all the blame they can on Wilson for everything and anything. Wilson played a bad game, overall, that's true but despite that, we were a drop pass form going into OT. Wilson playing bad, Dropped passes, bad penalties that cost us alot of reasons.

Again, you are just wrong Anthony. The last pass was not dropped it was tipped. RW didn't thread that one well enough but when you put your team into a single play working or not it is not the WR who tried to make the catch that was TIPPED that cost you the game. Remember, it was not to go to OT, it was for a chance to go for 2 to go to OT. RW simply shat himself today and he needs to take a long look in the mirror, not the rest of the team.

[Anthony]

[quote="idhawkman"]

Dude again I am not wrong yes it was tipped and hit him right in the chest an NFL WR should catch that period. Even the announcers said it was tipped but should have been caught. That said I did not say Wilson played great and indeed the first thing I said was Wilson played bad. Nor am I saying that play cost us the game, however, it did not help nor the other drop Moore had or some other things that happened. FYI the whole team needs to look in the mirror to include the coaching staff. Wilson played badly as I said, however, there was enough bad to go around for the whole team.

Of course, I am sure it is okay to you to drop [passes, to have stupid penalties costing your teams downs and yards, that's all okay, or making it so obvious we will not throw on Fd that the other team did not even both to honor it, as the announcer pointed out several times. I have no problem saying Wilson played bad and was probably the #1 reason we lost, but he was far from the only reason.

[curmudgeon]

Halloween is a tough holiday. Especially in neighborhoods that utilize “full size” instead of “fun size”....

[The POPE]

1. This was RW's worst game. He missed a guy wide open down the middle.
2. Yeah the pick 6 was bad
3. Carson going out probably cost us the game.
4. He is elite.
5. What's your alternative Pope?

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Don’t agree
5. No alternative at this point

Carson out had a huge impact. As I have said in previous posts Russell is at his best when the run game is clicking. Today it got slowed down and we saw what happens when the run game goes away. When Russell can consistently perform at an elite level when the run game goes south I will agree with Elite, until that time...nope.

Pope out

[Anthony]

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Don’t agree
5. No alternative at this point

Carson out had a huge impact. As I have said in previous posts Russell is at his best when the run game is clicking. Today it got slowed down and we saw what happens when the run game goes away. When Russell can consistently perform at an elite level when the run game goes south I will agree with Elite, until that time...nope.

Pope out

I don't disagree Wilson like any QB is better with a running game, but to say he can't without a running game is to ignore the facts of the last 2 years were Wilson played really well without a run game. The difference this year is we are not built for passing and when we have to we struggle. As to him being Elite, you can believe what you want but the facts say he is. Even Elite QBs have bad games Point in Case Brady against the lions, Qb rating 65 which is really bad. However, he is still Elite. Aaron Rodgers Against Buffalo but he is still Elite. You can have bad games and still be Elite. And when you have the 2nd best QB rating in NFL history you are Elite.

[RiverDog]

[Again, you are just wrong Anthony. The last pass was not dropped it was tipped. RW didn't thread that one well enough but when you put your team into a single play working or not it is not the WR who tried to make the catch that was TIPPED that cost you the game. Remember, it was not to go to OT, it was for a chance to go for 2 to go to OT. RW simply shat himself today and he needs to take a long look in the mirror, not the rest of the team.

If it was tipped, it had little if any affect on it's trajectory. I wouldn't call it a drop as it was a tough catch, but it's one that you would expect an NFL receiver to make.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your comments. Russell sucked, plain and simple. At least 3 sacks that were a direct result of him holding onto the ball too long that were drive killers, missed receivers, a pick 6 that he should have seen. But had we scored and pulled it out in overtime, there'd be those...that shall remain nameless...that would have been lauding Russell's incredible 4th quarter comeback and refer to him as Mr. Clutch.

In summary, Russell's a very good quarterback, best in franchise history, fits our system well, and wins more games for us than he loses. He's also one of my favorite Seahawks of all time. But he's not "elite", whatever that means. So far this season, he's had 5 good games, 3 bad ones. Today's loss was on him.

[Anthony]

If it was tipped, it had little if any affect on it's trajectory. I wouldn't call it a drop as it was a tough catch, but it's one that you would expect an NFL receiver to make.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your comments. Russell sucked, plain and simple. At least 3 sacks that were a direct result of him holding onto the ball too long that were drive killers, missed receivers, a pick 6 that he should have seen. But had we scored and pulled it out in overtime, there'd be those...that shall remain nameless...that would have been lauding Russell's incredible 4th quarter comeback and refer to him as Mr. Clutch.

In summary, Russell's a very good quarterback, best in franchise history, fits our system well, and wins more games for us than he loses. He's also one of my favorite Seahawks of all time. But he's not "elite", whatever that means. So far this season, he's had 5 good games, 3 bad ones. Today's loss was on him.

I agree with some of what you say, however, While I agree Wilson can play and play well in this system I do not believe this system is the best system for him. We have seen in him a system that works best for him in latter 2015. The problem is this current system is PCs system not built for Wilson.

[RiverDog]

I agree with some of what you say, however, While I agree Wilson can play and play well in this system I do nt9o believe this system is the best system for him. We have seen in him a system that works best for him in latter 2015. The problem is this current system is PCs system not built for Wilson.

If I recall, the latter part of 2015 featured a lot of lower division defenses.

Pete's system fit Russell pretty well for his first 3 years.

[Anthony]

If I recall, the latter part of 2015 featured a lot of lower division defenses.

Pete's system fit Russell pretty well for his first 3 years.

I am not saying he cannot function in this system, just it is not best for him, this system is best for a true game manager like the Ravens had with Dilfer. Wilson can do this, but he can also take over games and win. as to lower defenses that included 2 top 5 defenses, 4 top 10, 8 top 15 defenses. So not all lower division defenses. That said 2015 was not the only time we have seen it, we saw it some in 2016, 2017 and at times for a play or 2 even this year but not enough. The biggest issue I have with this system is to run, run and then expect a Qb who has thrown maybe 7 passes all of a sudden make big-time passes. An example we score on our first possession then it is 2 possession before h3 gets to throw again dan that was 3rd and long. I mean let's look at 3rd down, of the 13 throwing 3rd downs 10 were 5 or more with 8 being 10 or more. IT was so bad out there that the announcers were saying the Chargers were not even playing the Hawks to through on 1st down. GUess what we only did once until we had no choice but to pass. TO me they are effectively taking Wilson out of the game until they have no choice and that is a mistake, but it is OC ball, and I am fine with that but do we need to pay a QB 25+ mil to do that? No, let Wilson go someplace where they will build a system around him, let us save money strengthen our defense, get a Qb to run this system. ANd I can root for the hawks and Wilson unless we play him and then I root for the hawks LOL I also think this system is stunting his growth as a QB. FYI his first 3 years is one thing, now he is established, one of the best and has shown he can carry a team.

[obiken]

You guys have to remember, RW was a bargain the first 4 years, then choices had to be made to make up for his salary. He had a bad game but come on, IF Cowherd says he's elite, he's elite. All great QB's have bad games.

[Anthony]

You guys have to remember, RW was a bargain the first 4 years, then choices had to be made to make up for his salary. He had a bad game but come on, IF Cowherd says he's elite, he's elite. All great QB's have bad games.

Not sure if you are being serious or not but your right all great QBs have bad games, Brady has had 2 this year, Rodgers 3 it happens.

[c_hawkbob]

Not Russell's worst game, but it was a bad one. That pick six was a back breaker and he didn't quite have the magic to overcome it (as he did in his other "worst game").

[mykc14]

My thoughts- RW played bad. He took multiple sacks that he shouldn’t have, but they all seemed to be coverage sacks. He didn’t appear to have guys open- he should have thrown the ball away. He had 1 bad miss, and it was big; the underthrow on third down and obviously 1 bad decision, the pick 6. IMO the tipped ball would have been near impossible to catch as it was tipped too late for the receiver to be able to adjust.

[idhawkman]

In summary, Russell's a very good quarterback, best in franchise history, fits our system well, and wins more games for us than he loses. He's also one of my favorite Seahawks of all time. But he's not "elite", whatever that means. So far this season, he's had 5 good games, 3 bad ones. Today's loss was on him.

Wow, I totally agree with everything in this part of your post. I like RW, he is a good QB, etc. I would also like to point out that Fluker was not on the field for much of the game and when he's not on the field, we struggle as a team. RW is still responsible but I wonder if Fluker could have settled RW a bit by being there.

What I do know is if Fluker is not on the field for the Rams game it is going to be ugly. I mean UG - LY!

[The POPE]

Sorry Pope, but you can't "EARN" elite status when you put your entire team in a dire situation and then you finally start to make up for what you did to put yourself in that position.

RW shat himself today. It is pure and simple as that. Underthrows on 3rd down to multiple open receivers running down the field, sacks on plays you can't afford a sack on, etc. It was all on RW today. The rest of the team did their job, unfortunately, RW decided it wasn't a good day to show up.[/quote]


This is the problem, constant late comeback attempts due to inadequate play for 3.5 quarters. The pick six was devastating, but those things happen. The deep game was non existent and that was due to Fluker and Carson on the sidelines and the drop in the rushing game. Russell was off until about 7 minutes to go, and then it was too late. Russell has to wake up before the mid 4th quarter. Top tier QB’s play 4 quarters consistently, not consistently for 7.5 minutes per game. On a side note, I would like to see the offense pick up the tempo before the hawks are down by 2 scores. I will agree with Anthony that we need to pick up the pace a little sooner, since it seems that Russell responds better to hurry up situations. Maybe it would help him find his groove sooner.
Let another one slip away, too bad since the defense held it close enough to get a “W”
Pope out

Pope out

[RiverDog]

I would also like to point out that Fluker was not on the field for much of the game and when he's not on the field, we struggle as a team. RW is still responsible but I wonder if Fluker could have settled RW a bit by being there.

As mykc pointed out, most if not all of the sacks were coverage sacks, and Fluker's long suit is not pass protection. Additionally, we still ran the ball very well even after Chris Carson, our best RB, left the game via injury. All totaled, our rushing average for the game was 4.8 ypc, a tad bit higher than our 4.3 ypc for the season, so I can't see where having Fluker available for the whole game would have had a huge impact.

IMO our biggest problem Sunday was our quarterback play. That was one of if not the worst performance of the season for Russell.

What I do know is if Fluker is not on the field for the Rams game it is going to be ugly. I mean UG - LY!

Same if Carson isn't able to go. We're going to need all hands on board.

[NorthHawk]

You guys have to remember, RW was a bargain the first 4 years, then choices had to be made to make up for his salary. He had a bad game but come on, IF Cowherd says he's elite, he's elite. All great QB's have bad games.

He occasionally flirts with being "elite", but he's not consistently there.
He's one of the best QB's in the league however, probably in the high 2nd tier, and that should be good enough to win games if the supporting cast contributes as well.

[RiverDog]

He's one of the best QB's in the league however, probably in the high 2nd tier, and that should be good enough to win games if the supporting cast contributes as well.

I guess it depends on where you draw the line between the first and second tiers. Brady and Rodgers for sure, and probably Brees. Most analysts worth their salt rank Wilson somewhere between #6 and #10, which is about where I'd put him. But you're right about the supporting cast. Russell can't carry the load himself in the same manner an "elite" quarterback can. Brady and Rodgers can make average players look better. I don't think that the same can be said about Russell.

[NorthHawk]

I guess it depends on where you draw the line between the first and second tiers. Brady and Rodgers for sure, and probably Brees. Most analysts worth their salt rank Wilson somewhere between #6 and #10, which is about where I'd put him. But you're right about the supporting cast. Russell can't carry the load himself in the same manner an "elite" quarterback can. Brady and Rodgers can make average players look better. I don't think that the same can be said about Russell.

I think it's consistency that separates the tiers. Wilson has at times done that, but he hasn't been asked to do so a lot and last game didn't deliver.
That doesn't mean he isn't an excellent QB, I think he is, and would be difficult to replace in our system and would be an upgrade in most others.

[obiken]

Yeah, IF you guys like ID Hawk, and Pope hate him so much, ship him to Jacksonville, and see how he does there.

[HumanCockroach]

Russ is a great, franchise QB. That said, elite is subjective. I would land on the side of not elite, but like I said, subjective. IMHO elite QBs turn average castoffs receivers in to all pro players. They anticipate and deliver strikes when the ball shouldn't be thrown in the first place, they carry teams, with orrr without surrounding talent, and are the player that puts a team yearly into a Championship conversation, regardless of teams weakness, or lack of talent. For all the good things Russ is, and there's LOTS of good there, I don't view him as being that player.

[Anthony]

Russ is a great, franchise QB. That said, elite is subjective. I would land on the side of not elite, but like I said, subjective. IMHO elite QBs turn average castoffs receivers in to all pro players. They anticipate and deliver strikes when the ball shouldn't be thrown in the first place, they carry teams, with orrr without surrounding talent, and are the player that puts a team yearly into a Championship conversation, regardless of teams weakness, or lack of talent. For all the good things Russ is, and there's LOTS of good there, I don't view him as being that player.

What you just described as elite does not exist. No Qb, not one does it by themselves. They all have other players who contribute. Sometimes it is also the system. Lets even look at Brady, He has Gronk, a system so good almost every Qb that had to play when Brady could not looked like the second coming. Look t Rodgers well what has he done he has the same number of SB as Wilson. Not one Sb winning Qb did it without hel[ or carried their team all by themselves. Example what if Walsh hits those 4 Fgs, we are 11-5 and in the playoffs and who knows. What if in 2015 instead of going back to ground and pound when Lynch returned we stayed with the uptempo WCO that got us to the playoffs. Wilson has proven he can carry this team as much as any other Qb when they run a system built for him. What we are running now is not built for him. You talk about making those around him better, other than Tate, not one Wr went someplace else and did anything. He has done what he has done with no real #1 wr for years now. Wilson, Is not in a system built for passing and in their lies the problem. What happened Sunday was something I saw coming, a game where we needed to throw the ball, and with the really bad play design of the supposed passing game. Now why is it so bad, simple it is built on running the ball and big plays, we have no real quick-hitting type of passing game. You know like we did for most of 2015, at times in 2016, and 2017. Proof it was so bad and predictable the Chargers were not even giving a thought to us throwing on first down, until the 4th qtr, the announcer even said it. All that said Wilson did not play his best, the INT was pathetic, as was at least 2 misses.

I digress the reality is no Qb even the ones you think are elite do it all by themselves and there is nothing they have one Wilson has not, and cannot do, he has proven that.

[idhawkman]

I would also like to point out that Fluker was not on the field for much of the game and when he's not on the field, we struggle as a team. RW is still responsible but I wonder if Fluker could have settled RW a bit by being there.

As mykc pointed out, most if not all of the sacks were coverage sacks, and Fluker's long suit is not pass protection. Additionally, we still ran the ball very well even after Chris Carson, our best RB, left the game via injury. All totaled, our rushing average for the game was 4.8 ypc, a tad bit higher than our 4.3 ypc for the season, so I can't see where having Fluker available for the whole game would have had a huge impact.

IMO our biggest problem Sunday was our quarterback play. That was one of if not the worst performance of the season for Russell.

All I know is that when Fluker is not on the field, we usually lose. When he's on the field we usually win (save for the 2 point loss to the Rams which we should have won)

What I do know is if Fluker is not on the field for the Rams game it is going to be ugly. I mean UG - LY!

Same if Carson isn't able to go. We're going to need all hands on board.[/quote]

Why would it be bad if our rushing average went up when Carson was on the sidelines?

[idhawkman]

Yeah, IF you guys like ID Hawk, and Pope hate him so much, ship him to Jacksonville, and see how he does there.

Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

[HumanCockroach]

Subjective.

I honestly don't care if you believe that player doesn't exist or not Anthony. Wilson is a very good, franchise worthy QB. I said so there. Until he can elevate lesser players, and throw players open, anticipate routes, deliver the ball in rhythm and accurately more consistently, IMHO he isn't one of the "elite" Qbs... elite are guys that do that, game in and game out, throw after throw after throw, despite pressure, despite lack of running games, despite in essence the excuses that some feel obligated to use every time Wilson is criticized.

Players like Montana, Marino, Brees, Rodgers, Brady etc. Wilson doesn't belong in that conversation about the best to do it currently, doesn't mean he isn't unique or great, just means he isn't elite.

[Aseahawkfan]

Russell was the main cause of our loss on Sunday. Bad day for Russell. He seemed confused by the defense. He wasn't reading the coverage well and didn't read his blocking well. There were a few drops too that should have been catches. And the offensive penalties were pretty rotten. Offense seemed listless against a very fired up Chargers. More prepared and fired up team won Sunday, but just barely. I think that bothered me the most was the look of both teams. Seeing the Chargers playing with fire and Seattle offense playing in a sort of haze was annoying. Seattle defense was fired up though. They had some great plays and a great second half.

[HumanCockroach]

Top

Re: Russell “pick 6” Wilson

by idhawkman » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:48 pm

obiken wrote:Yeah, IF you guys like ID Hawk, and Pope hate him so much, ship him to Jacksonville, and see how he does there.


Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say

Welcome to my world for the last 2 years. Wait until they telling you you aren't only saying something you aren't, but "feel" things never even mentioned

[Anthony]

Subjective.

I honestly don't care if you believe that player doesn't exist or not Anthony. Wilson is a very good, franchise worthy QB. I said so there. Until he can elevate lesser players, and throw players open, anticipate routes, deliver the ball in rhythm and accurately more consistently, IMHO he isn't one of the "elite" Qbs... elite are guys that do that, game in and game out, throw after throw after throw, despite pressure, despite lack of running games, despite in essence the excuses that some feel obligated to use every time Wilson is criticized.

Players like Montana, Marino, Brees, Rodgers, Brady etc. Wilson doesn't belong in that conversation about the best to do it currently, doesn't mean he isn't unique or great, just means he isn't elite.

Montanan oh so Jerry Rice, Craig were no bodies, Marino ahh when did he win a SB? Oh and Mark Duper and Mark Clayton were nobodies I guess. Brees Ahh he has one of the best backs in the game and a great O minded Coach. rodgers remind me how many SB he has oh yeah one and that year he had a top 5 defense. Brady yeah I mean Gronk sucks, Edleman sucks, Moss sucked, The top 10 defense they had for their last SB win is nothing, I can go on and on. Like I said No Qb does it by themselves and only a fool thinks otherwise. Like I said he already has elevated other players. Again other than Tate please show me another Wr that left and did anything? There are none. They left got their deal off of what they showed playing with Wilson. So you may not care but the facts sure do and they say no QB does it on their own, and Wilson does and has elevated others.

[The POPE]

Yeah, IF you guys like ID Hawk, and Pope hate him so much, ship him to Jacksonville, and see how he does there.

I never once advocated Wilson be traded. Simply pointed out his yo yo style of play. When he can be consistently good through 4 quarters i will shut up. I have stated Russell is an above average QB. I just don’t think he needs to be on a pedestal until he demonstrates he can consistently play 3-4 quarters of good football and not just one. It’s been argued that the problem is coaching, scheme, Russell. I don’t know what the problem is, but the inconsistencies need to be addressed. Who knows, maybe Russell would benefit from a change of scenery, but I doubt it. I just can’t put him in the same class as Brady or Rogers until his play is consistently good throughout games and the yo yo crap stops. Just my humble opinion. Pope out

[Anthony]

I never once advocated Wilson be traded. Simply pointed out his yo yo style of play. When he can be consistently good through 4 quarters i will shut up. I have stated Russell is an above average QB. I just don’t think he needs to be on a pedestal until he demonstrates he can consistently play 3-4 quarters of good football and not just one. It’s been argued that the problem is coaching, scheme, Russell. I don’t know what the problem is, but the inconsistencies need to be addressed. Who knows, maybe Russell would benefit from a change of scenery, but I doubt it. I just can’t put him in the same class as Brady or Rogers until his play is consistently good throughout games and the yo yo crap stops. Just my humble opinion. Pope out

LOL yeah you missed the game against Oakland, the Detroit game and others, or against Houston, Giants, indy last year or many many others were he played great for 4 qtrs. FYI You should also go watch the last NE Gb game neither of those played 4 qtrs.

[The POPE]

Anthony, get a dictionary, look up consistent and get back to me.

Pope

[obiken]

Human, he's Brees or Tarkington lite. He is a tremendous 4th quarter competitor, but I agree with Popey that he could use a little more fire in the 1 and 2nd quarter. Is he elite? Depends on your definition.