Carson?

[mykc14]

What the heck is going on here? The dude has ran like a stud in his limited carries so far this season but no carries in the 2nd half? Also bizarre is PC’s comments about him being fatigued from special teams. My first reaction was, really if he is that out of shape (he only played 19 offensive plays) then something is wrong with him. Then the news comes out that he ONLY PLAYED 2 special teams plays all night!!! WTF??? PC’s reaction to that was that he ‘mis-read’ the situation and thought Carson ‘looked’ fatigued and assumed it was from too many special teams plays. Come on we are starting to look like the Browns with all this stuff.

On another note PC blamed himself for the back to back 3 and outs to start the 2nd half that featured 6 passes and no runs, saying he thought he saw something in their D that warranted us taking some deep shots because one big play could get us back in the game. I don’t mind taking 1 shot there but we were 0-6 and killed our selves on those 2 drives. But that goes back to Peteball ina lot of ways- tough D, no mistakes, and explosive offensive plays. Way too many head scratchers from this coaching staff in the first two games.

[Uppercut]

Maybe he was tired!

May retire at halftime against Dallas

[NorthHawk]

I get the impression Pete just wanted to see Penney play and made up something that's now come back to haunt him.
Regarding the pass plays and Pete seeing something, perhaps he should stick to Defense and let the Offense do what gives them a chance to win.
It almost seems like he'd rather lose playing his way than win with a different philosophy.

[obiken]

I get the impression Pete just wanted to see Penney play and made up something that's now come back to haunt him.
Regarding the pass plays and Pete seeing something, perhaps he should stick to Defense and let the Offense do what gives them a chance to win.
It almost seems like he'd rather lose playing his way than win with a different philosophy.

Real simple, the OL is getting worse not better.

[mykc14]

Real simple, the OL is getting worse not better.

Carson's rushing stats don't back that up. He's got 13 carries for 75 yards and is averaging 5.8 ydc... much better than we were last year!

[HumanCockroach]

Y'all don't say? It's not the lines inability to block productively for a good running back??? Interesting....

I pointed out the back disparity in week 1.... Im far less concerned with the apparent loss of faith in Carroll's professed philosophy, and panicking that Pete has lost faith in it..... the always compete, earn your opportunities, earn everything mantra, strong defense, with strong running game ( the list goes on) rings AWFULLY hollow in circumstances where he forgoes the more productive, better player to make sure their pick gets more playing time.... not to mention multiple cuts, players continuing to make the team and garner playing time, despite being the inferior player.

This simply isn't the way he built this team.... didn't matter how much money you made, or where you were drafted in the not to distant past, and coincidentally it was both HIS and the TEAM'S greatest period of success.... maybe he should dedicate himself to practicing what he preaches again??

[RiverDog]

Y'all don't say? It's not the lines inability to block productively for a good running back??? Interesting....

I pointed out the back disparity in week 1.... Im far less concerned with the apparent loss of faith in Carroll's professed philosophy, and panicking that Pete has lost faith in it..... the always compete, earn your opportunities, earn everything mantra, strong defense, with strong running game ( the list goes on) rings AWFULLY hollow in circumstances where he forgoes the more productive, better player to make sure their pick gets more playing time.... not to mention multiple cuts, players continuing to make the team and garner playing time, despite being the inferior player.

This simply isn't the way he built this team.... didn't matter how much money you made, or where you were drafted in the not to distant past, and coincidentally it was both HIS and the TEAM'S greatest period of success.... maybe he should dedicate himself to practicing what he preaches again??

I said this over in the timeout thread, but I honestly think that Pete is losing it, that something isn't right with him. His answers to the press are getting more and more weird. Even the way he handled the rumor that he was babying Russell seemed a little odd and not the way he would have reacted to a similar controversy a few years ago.

He is 67 years old, so is it age related, perhaps a touch of dementia? The mental strains on an NFL head coach are enormous, and Pete's always conducted himself like he's a 5 year old kid on a sugar high, so perhaps something is going on with him. Or is he acting like the professor that has tenure, thinks he's untouchable, and just plain doesn't give a rip about the press anymore?

I'm not making any accusations or jumping to conclusions, but this isn't the Pete Carroll we've seen over the past 9 years.

[NorthHawk]

Gaining the hill, keeping the hill, and reclaiming the hill are all different things.
As such he's reacting differently than in the initial building years and the championship years.
Might there be some cognitive decline? Of course it's possible, but it's a different situation trying to recover what is lost and over the last 10 years he, like all of us have changed to some degree.
I just hope it's not for the worst, but the initial results of the re-build don't look good yet.

[RiverDog]

Gaining the hill, keeping the hill, and reclaiming the hill are all different things.
As such he's reacting differently than in the initial building years and the championship years.
Might there be some cognitive decline? Of course it's possible, but it's a different situation trying to recover what is lost and over the last 10 years he, like all of us have changed to some degree.
I just hope it's not for the worst, but the initial results of the re-build don't look good yet.

I'm not sure if my situation is analogus or not, but as I got close to retirement, I realized that there was no chance of being promoted and unless I did something really stupid, very little chance of getting fired. As a result, I didn't worry about my mistakes nearly as much and didn't feel as if I owed my superiors a detailed explanation when something went wrong. Sometimes, depending on my mood or how well I liked the person asking the question, I might give a smart ass answer or say something rude or inappropriate. I was a grumpy old man, at least in those situations, and I'm Pete's junior by 4 years.

I'm wondering if something similar is going on with Pete. The answers he's giving just plain don't add up.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure if my situation is analogus or not, but as I got close to retirement, I realized that there was no chance of being promoted and unless I did something really stupid, very little chance of getting fired. As a result, I didn't worry about my mistakes nearly as much and didn't feel as if I owed my superiors a detailed explanation when something went wrong. Sometimes, depending on my mood or how well I liked the person asking the question, I might give a smart ass answer or say something rude or inappropriate. I was a grumpy old man, at least in those situations, and I'm Pete's junior by 4 years.

I'm wondering if something similar is going on with Pete. The answers he's giving just plain don't add up.

Not to be an apologist for Pete, but this is a new experience for him.
At the College level there is a defined time period for players before they move on not to mention he's now dealing with full grown men who are actively supporting families.
The NFL, being different is something he has to find his way through and he might be making some mistakes along the way. His program at the pro level is still developing and there are different challenges with it.
I hope the problems we see today are short term issues with long term benefits.

[HumanCockroach]

He wouldn't be getting less heat for lying about why more productive players aren't touching the ball because he really wants a top recruit to pan out...

Many have pointed out the issues with evaluating the line talent, I would point out that amongst NUMEROUS chances, the actually least success they've had is getting running backs... how many backs have been selected ( Micheals, Collins, Ware etc) or even traded for ( Remember White?)
And signed. Amondst those backs, none have worked in Seattle, except Lynch, Rawls for a minute, Carson.... and the "line is garbage" excuse, doesn't wash, as those backs indeed had success behind said line, while most haven't. It isn't always the line, those things work in tandem ( getting mal out, getting open, blocking all add up to success or not in passing game for instance)

[RiverDog]

Not to be an apologist for Pete, but this is a new experience for him.
At the College level there is a defined time period for players before they move on not to mention he's now dealing with full grown men who are actively supporting families.
The NFL, being different is something he has to find his way through and he might be making some mistakes along the way. His program at the pro level is still developing and there are different challenges with it.
I hope the problems we see today are short term issues with long term benefits.

I agree that his task is different, ie rebuilding after he's been at the pinnacle of success and that it requires a different set of tools. But I can't accept that as an explanation for his irrational remarks.

Pete's been around the NFL far longer than he was a college coach. Outside of his 8 years at USC, he's been coaching in the NFL since 1984, including two stints as a HC. Not much of what he's going through is novel to him in that he's seen a lot of stuff over the past 3.5 decades. What's new to him is that he's approaching the end of his career.

[NorthHawk]

The other thing that's new in his tenure here is winning a SB, returning and losing and now rebuilding.
No amount of experience short of doing it before can prepare you for it regardless of how successful you have been in previous lower level positions.
That's what I was getting at with the new experience comment.

[RiverDog]

The other thing that's new in his tenure here is winning a SB, returning and losing and now rebuilding.
No amount of experience short of doing it before can prepare you for it regardless of how successful you have been in previous lower level positions.
That's what I was getting at with the new experience comment.

Yea, well we'll see. Perhaps you're right, that Pete's just having a rough few weeks. But if the irrational explanations continue, we'll have to look for some other possible cause as he would have had plent of time to get adjusted to this new reality.

[NorthHawk]

I could be way off track, but he does have a program and was confident that it would work at the NFL level, but it may only have been developed to the point of achieving a championship and now he's learning if it will work on a continual basis.
It seems it might be limited to get to the top and not be mature enough to maintain and rebuild.

[idhawkman]

I don't know who said it first but it is a lot different reaching the pinnacle, staying at the pinnacle and then trying to regain the pinnacle.

Think about Chuck Knol, Bud Grant, Tom Landry, Don Shula, etc. I know back then you could hold onto players a lot longer but once those teams lost the pinnacle it took different coaches to re-reach that level (for the most part).

Now let's think about Carroll. When he came in, he let go a sacred cow in his second season when you let Hass go in exchange for a POS like Jackson. What is encouraging is that he let a few sacred cows go this last year, too. I'm still not convinced that every posiiton is up for competition but many more are this year than have been in the last 3-4 years.

Regarding his excuses and comments, I'm not worried yet. But I'll be watching Riv to see if it gets increasingly odd. I don't get to hear his comments in real time either to determine if he's being absurd to point out the absurd questions by the media.

[RiverDog]

I could be way off track, but he does have a program and was confident that it would work at the NFL level, but it may only have been developed to the point of achieving a championship and now he's learning if it will work on a continual basis.
It seems it might be limited to get to the top and not be mature enough to maintain and rebuild.

IMO you're not off track at all. One of the reasons I was doubtful of his style when he was hired was that it's more appropriate for younger players like he had in college and may wear thin with more mature, professional adults that are in his program for longer periods of time than they are in college. The parting shots fired by Richard Sherman would seem to support this contention.

But that's a seperate topic, and doesn't explain these irrational comments he's been making.

[obiken]

Not that it matters with this line, but I think Greg Cossell is right, we need to settle on one or the other. He likes Carson too, I like Penny, thats why we drafted Penny, but we need to go with one or the other.

[Hawktawk]

I said this over in the timeout thread, but I honestly think that Pete is losing it, that something isn't right with him. His answers to the press are getting more and more weird. Even the way he handled the rumor that he was babying Russell seemed a little odd and not the way he would have reacted to a similar controversy a few years ago.

He is 67 years old, so is it age related, perhaps a touch of dementia? The mental strains on an NFL head coach are enormous, and Pete's always conducted himself like he's a 5 year old kid on a sugar high, so perhaps something is going on with him. Or is he acting like the professor that has tenure, thinks he's untouchable, and just plain doesn't give a rip about the press anymore?

I'm not making any accusations or jumping to conclusions, but this isn't the Pete Carroll we've seen over the past 9 years.

Lets remember PC was a vicious hitting safety in college that wasn't big enough to make the pros but the point is he took a lot of knocks to the head. I certainly hope he's not having cognitive issues due to CTE but I completely agree RD, this isn't the same guy laughing and chomping gum and acting like he's 25 anymore. IMO if the team stumbles badly and finishes like they have started he should quit or be fired. 5 year rule or not.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm with Pete another few years. It takes time to put new pieces together for everyone not named Belichick with a QB named Brady. If Pete feels up to it and they can put together another great defense with a run game, we can make another run.

[RiverDog]

At this point, I'm still on the bandwagon. I want to see how this season plays out. But I have to be honest: If we really tank, say like 4-12 or worse, it's going to be damn difficult for me to stick with Pete. This past month or so has really sapped my confidence in him.

[HumanCockroach]

The thing is, despite the defense not being great, they have been opportunistic, and the running game is THERE if he decides to use it, instead of relegating it to the bench because of made up gassed excuses....

Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but it certainly looks available, which makes it frustrating to watch.... it's just hot air, if he refuses to use what's there, and the first two games, that is exactly what he's done

Sometimes it feels/ looks like they find something successful, and then throw it in the garbage. Never run that play again, it's been too successful.

[HumanCockroach]

So disappointing the staff threw two possible victories in the toilet because of the desire to evaluate a player during the regular season, but at least Wilson throwing it on time and rhythm, and they have at least figured it out for one week... give Carson the ball, mix up your passing game, win.

[jshawaii22]

...and Earl Thomas came to play. Tre Flowers looks like a safety playing as CB.. and it's working. Bobby Wagner is worth 100 less yards and signing a 'convict' was a genius move. Is Doug Baldwin the back-stage savior?

[HumanCockroach]

Thomas always comes to play. That's what he does....

[jshawaii22]

HC, was it an audition game?

[HumanCockroach]

Not imho... not the first game in his career like that, won't be last.

[jshawaii22]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... -tomorrow/

Earl's a true pro on the field, but it seems that the idea that he will play his ass off for us, but wants to be a Cowboy may be the reality.

There's also an article about him not practicing as a 'business decision' going forward. Basically, he'll show up on Sundays.

[Aseahawkfan]

They should pay him the market rate. Not sure what is going on, but the Seahawks usually don't let a player go to the last year of their contract. This is more mismanagement by John and Pete playing hardball without much intelligent thought put into it.

[mykc14]

They should pay him the market rate. Not sure what is going on, but the Seahawks usually don't let a player go to the last year of their contract. This is more mismanagement by John and Pete playing hardball without much intelligent thought put into it.

That might be the problem. The market rate for safeties has gone down since Berry signed his extension and ET May want to be the highest paid Safety in the game. We just don’t know enough about the details to know who is being stubborn...

[HumanCockroach]

Who knows, but realistically, if I was the best in the world, doing what I do, I would also want to be the best paid to do it.

I worry what message is sent to others both by Earl, AND by the Seahawks front office should they decide to either sign, or trade him.... truthfully, there's not a positive message sent by any of it.... Seattle professes to "commit to their core players" ..then doesn't, and sends the message that they said they "win forever" or some other mantra, ..then trade Thomas, pretty clear that isn't their priority, and unfortunately players * young players that KNOW how important he is* see that no matter how productive, talented or good you are, it's only a matter of time before Seattle freighttrains you. Not only that, but clear message they don't believe in the players here THIS season. As they can't in anyway claim it's for the betterment of the current team, which by definition, means they are playing for the future, not now as they always preach.

Truthfully, you kind of created a no win situation by refusing to negotiate in good faith at the end of last year, and placed yourself squarely between a rock and a hard place.... never good when you've got players throughout the team saying pay the man, and supporting his stance, you trade him, you upset any team chemistry, you keep him, you create a pattern in the future, you hold him, you create the same....

Unfortunate that they completely flubbed the situation so thoroughly, should have given him his extension when it was a "regular" situation like they did for so many others, during the off season, and made it a PRIORITY.

[Aseahawkfan]

That might be the problem. The market rate for safeties has gone down since Berry signed his extension and ET May want to be the highest paid Safety in the game. We just don’t know enough about the details to know who is being stubborn...

Doesn't much matter. Earl is worth that money. I don't see good GMs waiting this long to part ways with talent for draft picks or waiting to pay a guy this good. This is some kind of stupid going on that our FO isn't handling right for reasons that are unrevealed.

The amount of talent we have let walk for almost nothing is astounding. Those first 3 years or so managing the team were magic barring the dumb Percy trade and such. These last three have been bad. Bad drafting, bad trades, and mismanagement of talent. Sheldon Richardson on another team. Jimmy Graham gone for nothing. Percy Harvin gone for barely anything. We have a thirty something year old Duane Brown with maybe a few productive years left. Now we're going to lose Earl for what we do not know when he is so valuable to our team, even a 2nd round pick seems to be lacking for a player that does so much for us.

[obiken]

Sorry but Graham is all about money, Harvin see ya, SR big, fat, and lazy. Dont miss any of them.

[Hawktawk]

KC has emerged as a major suitor for ET and watching their D collapse in the second half after building a 35-7 first half lead shows me why. If he wont practice he needs to go, no mater how valuable. Of course if recent history shows anything its that no matter how attractive the picks SChneider will probably screw it up. Hey we got a win.Ill just be happy for today.

[Hawktawk]

Dude looks like a young AP. If he stays healthy we have a star in the making in CC.

[Oly]

The difficult thing is that ET's value for the Hawks far outstrips his market value. As others have noted, the going rate for safeties has decreased and there are still good FA safeties out there. So rewarding a core player, a first-ballot HOF player, would require the Hawks to overspend on the position. Not a great move for a franchise that has already dumped a bunch of money on the other safety position, only to see the risks of extending older players come back to haunt them.

I really don't see any good option other than ET demanding less money, and we all know that's not going to happen. We can either overspend or let the cornerstone of the defense walk for nothing.

[RiverDog]

Not sure how this ET discussion got going in the Carson thread, but so be it.

Despite the fact that Earl had an absolutely stellar game, it's never a good situation to have a grumpy old man hanging around the locker room fussing about this, that, or the other thing. If he won't come to practice, it's petty clear that his patience has run out and he has no interest in staying here to help develop our new secondary as we rebuild this defense. One way or another, he needs to go.

[NorthHawk]

He knows the Defense so well that he really doesn't need to practice much.
The most important part of his preparation is in the meetings which he's attending.
On the other hand, rookie team mates might not know what he's doing or what to expect without the practice experience, but being a Safety it isn't critical for the most part.
Having heard of players being hurt in practice, it's probably on his mind that he doesn't want to expose himself to any injury possibility while waiting to either get traded, reach
FA, or receive an extension. It's simply protecting the asset before it's sold.
We might not like it, but it's probably a smart thing to do from his perspective.

[RiverDog]

He knows the Defense so well that he really doesn't need to practice much.
The most important part of his preparation is in the meetings which he's attending.
On the other hand, rookie team mates might not know what he's doing or what to expect without the practice experience, but being a Safety it isn't critical for the most part.
Having heard of players being hurt in practice, it's probably on his mind that he doesn't want to expose himself to any injury possibility while waiting to either get traded, reach
FA, or receive an extension. It's simply protecting the asset before it's sold.
We might not like it, but it's probably a smart thing to do from his perspective.

The issue isn't whether or not Earl needs the practice. This issue is how in the hell can he help our new secondary with his non participation?

If a person is to be a mentor, which this defense desperately needs, they need to be at every team function and then some. It's bad enough that he sat out the entire summer camp and preseason, but now he's sitting out practices, too, puting pressure on Pete and Co. to either fine a HOF veteran and make a bad situation worse or set a horrible example for the team by treating him with kid gloves ala Russell Wilson. This is not what it means to "Always Compete".

The time has come for Earl to go.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sorry but Graham is all about money, Harvin see ya, SR big, fat, and lazy. Dont miss any of them.

It was bad management nonetheless.