Our OL

[RiverDog]

He was a rookie Guard then a rookie RT coming from a system where he more often than not did not use a 3 point stance.
Adding to it was a complex system to learn 2 positions and considering most competent OL take 3 to 4 years to get it together, he should be given more leeway.
There was an article (I'm not sure if it was PFF or another) that showed his progress was in line with the development of starting OL across the league.
The physical, simpler system that Solari brings should help him with his development and provide some consistency along the OL.
That's no guarantee, but the change in coaching and responsibilities might just make him a better player as it plays to his strengths.

I understand all of that, and I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said. My point is that it's either put up or shut up time regarding Ifedi. We can't keep finding excuses for his poor play.

[NorthHawk]

His play wasn't that bad relative to other now starters in the NFL at their times of development according to that article.
I'm not sure if I can find it, but I believe it said he was on target to being a good RT.

[idhawkman]

I'm not familiar with the article but i've read that he is "in-line" or "on par" with other starting OLs. My expectations from a first round draft pick however is that they would exceed such mediocrity. Maybe we just drafted him too high.

[HumanCockroach]

Lol... his play wasn't poor ( better pass protect than the other tackle, and didn't cost multiple high draft picks and 10m a year to get it) his issue was pre penalty snaps, not play.

[RiverDog]

Lol... his play wasn't poor ( better pass protect than the other tackle, and didn't cost multiple high draft picks and 10m a year to get it) his issue was pre penalty snaps, not play.

By "play", I meant his overall performance, including penalties.

[HumanCockroach]

I'll happily take that from a young player that hasn't hit his ceiling yet, compared to the other tackle position.

[RiverDog]

I wasn't comparing him to Brown or anyone else. I'm simply saying that he is entering his 3rd season and that given that we spent a first round pick on him that we are justified in expecting more than we've seen in the past two years.

[politicalfootball]

I say we go FA on the OL and we have several who we can keep Brown and Britt but it's not enough we need FA players. I am a firm believer in nursing an OL player along but that is under normal circumstances. It is time to go FA and get some more players on the line.

[RiverDog]

I say we go FA on the OL and we have several who we can keep Brown and Britt but it's not enough we need FA players. I am a firm believer in nursing an OL player along but that is under normal circumstances. It is time to go FA and get some more players on the line.

There's only a few unsigned free agent OL's, and very few if any that can be considered starting quality. The free agency period started back in March and most of the top players are signed before the draft in late April or early May (this year the draft was held on April 26-28). The only players left are those that were unwanted by the other 31 teams or those (like JR Sweezy) that were cut.

As the preseason gets started, teams have to start trimming their rosters to meet specific limits at certain points, eventually getting down to 53 by the start of the season. We might be able to pick up a player or two during preseaon, but it's doubtful that an impact player will land in our lap.

All the cards have been dealt, we pretty much have to play the hand that we have.

[idhawkman]

There's only a few unsigned free agent OL's, and very few if any that can be considered starting quality. The free agency period started back in March and most of the top players are signed before the draft in late April or early May (this year the draft was held on April 26-28). The only players left are those that were unwanted by the other 31 teams or those (like JR Sweezy) that were cut.

As the preseason gets started, teams have to start trimming their rosters to meet specific limits at certain points, eventually getting down to 53 by the start of the season. We might be able to pick up a player or two during preseaon, but it's doubtful that an impact player will land in our lap.

All the cards have been dealt, we pretty much have to play the hand that we have.

Any idea where we are cap wise? Sometimes teams will cut a decent player at the end of preseason in their final cuts to get under cap and if we have any space, we might be able to snag a player there - but that is a longshot/crapshoot. Otherwise, I agree completely that we are where we are at this point.

I am not sure if this is the year we get out of cap hell or if it is next year.

[RiverDog]

Any idea where we are cap wise? Sometimes teams will cut a decent player at the end of preseason in their final cuts to get under cap and if we have any space, we might be able to snag a player there - but that is a longshot/crapshoot. Otherwise, I agree completely that we are where we are at this point.

I am not sure if this is the year we get out of cap hell or if it is next year.

I haven't looked lately, but with all the players that we've unloaded this offseason (Sherman, Bennett, Avril, Chancellor), I would be shocked if we didn't have enough in the budget to sign what would almost have to be a lower tier player prior to the start of the season. North Hawk seems to be our cap expert, maybe he can chime in.

[NorthHawk]

I'm no expert, but according to Overthecap.com, there is about $11 million in space at the moment.
They will probably want to keep a few million to replace players that get injured, too, and we may cut someone that we don't expect to as of today.

[idhawkman]

I'm no expert, but according to Overthecap.com, there is about $11 million in space at the moment.
They will probably want to keep a few million to replace players that get injured, too, and we may cut someone that we don't expect to as of today.

Do you know if all the rookies are signed and figured into that number? I know Penny signed but didn't really see anything on the others. Probably wouldn't be that big of a deal if they aren't signed anyways.

Thanks for the site for looking at the cap space. I see we still have $14m in dead money. That number is what bothers me the most but can't do much about it.

I have to admit that I thought we would have more cap space after dumping the big contracts like Avril, Kam, Sherm, Bennett, Graham, etc. Maybe that $14m in dead space has some of their numbers still figured in. Next year, we should be in pretty darn good shape.

One thing is for sure, if we wanted to extend Earl, the money is there if they structure the contract right.

[NorthHawk]

It looks like the rookies are all signed, but it seems that only Penny and Green from our draft class are counted in the top 51 for Cap purposes.

[politicalfootball]

I Think Ifedi has had enough opportunities to be a OT. I say we trade him and get a good FA in there.

[obiken]

Great idea except no one is going to give you anything for him, and then your down a guy.

[c_hawkbob]

Great idea except no one is going to give you anything for him, and then your down a guy.

That's not quite accurate. He hasn't lived up to his draft position yet but he's still a 24 year old starting tackle (started all 29 games he's played in) ... we could get a mid rounder pick for him. Not that I think we will (or should), it's too soon to give up on him, he could still work out. He'll likely be here his whole first contract.

[NorthHawk]

I just don't get the giving up on Ifedi talk.
He was a raw rookie who didn't play a lot in the 3 point stance, but he has athleticism and power.
He also has learned 2 different positions in his first 2 years.
Now he's in a new system that should give us a better idea if he's improving. Cable's system had a lot of side to side blocking and Solari's system is more straight ahead man on man blocking.
This should play to his natural physical gifts as he's a big and powerful kid.

OL take a few years to develop these days. Even the best ranked OL regularly wash out now and very few if any start and play at the level we saw with Walter Jones or Orlando Pace their first year.
Sure, they are HoF players, but what I'm saying is we don't see that quality of player these days on the OL and those who were a step below were often better than the best OL
that are drafted today. There have been a few Guards that have been pretty good, but not many Tackles coming from College of late.

[RiverDog]

I'm not ready to give up on Ifedi yet, either, but it's definitely a put-up-or-shut-up season for him. He has 2 years left on his rookie contract, if he doesn't play well this season, then we can trade him next year if we so choose.

[NorthHawk]

I'm hoping that this year they have decided on what position the players are going to compete and not move them around a lot.
The younger guys need to be able to settle in and actually learn a position.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not sure that I hold a lot of expectations on OTs drafted with pick 31.... he's started every game he's been available, to me that sits exactly in the "expectation" realm.

He's a starting tackle in the NFL , in the middle of the pack, doesn't cost 10m a year, and has potential to be a good if unspectacular tackle going in to year 3 of his NFL career... if the expectation was more than that, he wouldn't have been availabke to select at that point. I feel like expecting Walter Jones performance ( who also struggled his first season, to season and a half) is absolutely unrealistic imho.... if he was Jones, he's a top five pick, maybe the TOP pick.... not #31..

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure that I hold a lot of expectations on OTs drafted with pick 31.... he's started every game he's been available, to me that sits exactly in the "expectation" realm.

He's a starting tackle in the NFL , in the middle of the pack, doesn't cost 10m a year, and has potential to be a good if unspectacular tackle going in to year 3 of his NFL career... if the expectation was more than that, he wouldn't have been availabke to select at that point. I feel like expecting Walter Jones performance ( who also struggled his first season, to season and a half) is absolutely unrealistic imho.... if he was Jones, he's a top five pick, maybe the TOP pick.... not #31..

PFF graded him as poor, and I'm not sure if their grading system factors in penalties, of which Ifedi led the league. Our OL in general graded out at #27. I'm not claiming PFF to be the Holy grail of OL analysis, but nor is it a ringing endorsement.

[HumanCockroach]

They also graded Brown favorably.... the second that happens I don't listen to what they have to say. It isn't difficult to see that Ifedi outperformed Brown, despite claims to the contrary .. hell even Oboushi outperformed Brown's bumbling against the Rams.

I don't get caught up in names, past glories, or former accolades. Last season Ifedi, not Brown was the best Tackle to line up for Seattle. That isn't encouraging, BUT at least he's inexpensive, and isn't on the rapid downhill side of his career. I can accept his performance during plays, I am not a fan of the penalties, but I'll happily take 3rd and 8 after a false start over 4th and 18 with my QB on the way to the hospital because the left tackle was standing still as a DE ran by him ( or worse ran over him because the guys hands are horrible).

[RiverDog]

I don't get caught up in names, past glories, or former accolades. Last season Ifedi, not Brown was the best Tackle to line up for Seattle. That isn't encouraging, BUT at least he's inexpensive, and isn't on the rapid downhill side of his career. I can accept his performance during plays, I am not a fan of the penalties, but I'll happily take 3rd and 8 after a false start over 4th and 18 with my QB on the way to the hospital because the left tackle was standing still as a DE ran by him ( or worse ran over him because the guys hands are horrible).

You keep comparing Ifedi to our LT, arguing "at least he isn't as bad or as expensive as Brown." I'm not looking at Ifedi in comparison to our LT either in terms of talent or salary. I'm considering him as an RT irrespective of any other player on our team, and if a respected publication like PFF grades him that poorly, then there must be something to it.

To be fair, it is much more difficult to block for a QB like Russell than it is for a prototypical pocket passing QB like Brady, Rodgers, Worthlessburger, and so on. But that doesn't excuse the entire grade. I don't think that anyone will argue that Ifedi is one of the players on our team that needs to step it up a notch if we are to compete for the playoffs this season.

I'm still curious if PFF factors penalties into their grading system. If they don't, then Ifedi's performance from last season is even worse.

[NorthHawk]

Here's an article that might give us some hope for Ifedi.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/3/23/17 ... es-pbe-pff

From the time Duane Brown arrived in Seattle in October through the end of the season, Ifedi had just three holding penalties, with only two coming in the second half of the season.

Further, the other penalty issue for Ifedi is the combined issue of his false starts and personal foul penalties.

The holding penalties can be largely overcome with experience and technique and I believe the false starts are a result of him thinking too much about his responsibilities, which is common for young Linemen.

The Article also has a couple of graphs which show he's not outside the norm for developing Linemen.

[HumanCockroach]

Which is indeed my point.... he's developing, takes time, the other tackle isn't developing, he's regressing, and costing Seattle dearly in the process....

I think it's fair to compare the two, Brown cost a hell of a LOT more than Ifedi did, and continues to do so. Hence if there's a put up player on that line, Ifedi would be certainly down the list IMHO. ( basically Seattle has two developing lineman, one solid starter * that took years to develop* and two lineman whos careers are in desperate need of life support)

As for the Russell Wilson is harder to block for than other QBs, I 100% agree, and have been pointing that out for FOUR long, tedious years. It's interesting that other lineman that had issues blocking for the man were regularly criticized as subpar, but Brown ( who merely watches people run by him, or deposit him on his arse) somehow gets a pass... lol

[idhawkman]

Brown was doing what he's been taught his whole career, push the rusher around the back of the pocket. Wilson has a deeper drop to look over the OL and he often bails out the back of the pocket. They need to get on the same page. NOTE: I'm not defending Brown other than he has never blocked for a scrambler like RW before. Don't read into this as if I love the player, I don't. I said it was a mistake when we signed him.

[RiverDog]

Brown was doing what he's been taught his whole career, push the rusher around the back of the pocket. Wilson has a deeper drop to look over the OL and he often bails out the back of the pocket. They need to get on the same page. NOTE: I'm not defending Brown other than he has never blocked for a scrambler like RW before. Don't read into this as if I love the player, I don't. I said it was a mistake when we signed him.

That's a really good point. Russell does take a really deep dropback, obviously to compensate for his lack of height. Plus he compounds the problem in that he seldom steps up into the pocket. Unless he sees the middle of the field open up, his first instinct is to reverse spin out of trouble and get outside, and if the LT is trying to push his man to the outside, Russell can run into a sack he never sees as it comes from his blind side.

That's the major reason why we should not be comparing Brown's performance to Ifedi's, at least in pass blocking. Russell can see Ifedi getting beat, but he can't see Brown getting beat.

[HumanCockroach]

Brown was doing what he's been taught his whole career, push the rusher around the back of the pocket. Wilson has a deeper drop to look over the OL and he often bails out the back of the pocket. They need to get on the same page. NOTE: I'm not defending Brown other than he has never blocked for a scrambler like RW before. Don't read into this as if I love the player, I don't. I said it was a mistake when we signed him.

I seriously doubt he was taught at any level to get deposited on his arse ( happened multiple times last season) or not touch a DE as he runs by you....

[HumanCockroach]

"That's the major reason why we should not be comparing Brown's performance to Ifedi's, at least in pass blocking. Russell can see Ifedi getting beat, but he can't see Brown getting beat"

I'm not entirely sure that is anything more than a thin excuse. Per many here just a few short months ago, he was "hands down the best lineman Seattle has ever had under Carroll".... Obuoshi, Fant, even Okung didn't receive that type of leeway.... and whether Wilson sees him or doesn't, doesn't remove the arse over tea kettle situations * something that is a product of poor hand placement, and bad feet* nor never laying a finger on a DE as he runs by... I'm not exaggerating when I say Oboushi was a more effective pass blocker than Brown, that's simply the truth, watch for yourself. It's on tape.

[idhawkman]

I seriously doubt he was taught at any level to get deposited on his arse ( happened multiple times last season) or not touch a DE as he runs by you....

You are the one who keeps saying that Ifedi needs time to learn his position, right? Why don't you give Brown the same leeway? Everything Brown has been taught is up in the air not only because of Wilson and what we've already pointed out but also with a screwy blocking scheme like Cable had. Add in the unfamiliarity of a new oline and you have what you got with Brown. Again, I'm not a fan of Brown but c'mon, you have to give his some slack.

[NorthHawk]

I can't speak for HC, but Brown is a multiple Pro Bowl player with 11 years experience.
He knows how to play in the NFL unlike the rookie or early year players.
A new system is different, but it's something he played in throughout his career as Texas also used the ZBS.

However he was playing with new players and injured his ankle when he got here which may have hampered his mobility so we have to see how he fits this year.
He's at the end of his career, so I doubt he will be here long term.

[idhawkman]

I can't speak for HC, but Brown is a multiple Pro Bowl player with 11 years experience.
He knows how to play in the NFL unlike the rookie or early year players.
A new system is different, but it's something he played in throughout his career as Texas also used the ZBS.

However he was playing with new players and injured his ankle when he got here which may have hampered his mobility so we have to see how he fits this year.
He's at the end of his career, so I doubt he will be here long term.

I'm pretty sure Texans had moved away from the ZBS a few years ago. Also, the way Cable implements the ZBS was different than other teams from what I understand.

That all said, after a year in Training camp he shouldn't have any excuses this year.

[NorthHawk]

I'm pretty sure Texans had moved away from the ZBS a few years ago. Also, the way Cable implements the ZBS was different than other teams from what I understand.

That all said, after a year in Training camp he shouldn't have any excuses this year.

He was there 10 years so he's familiar with the concepts of the ZBS, unlike rookies with poor training at the College level.
We'll see how he makes out, but I worry that age might just catch up to him sooner than later.

[HumanCockroach]

For a 1st and a 3rd, along with being the 4th highest paid player on the team, he had none last year. It isn't "scheme" or "new players" that creates getting dumped on your arse or not touching a DE running by you. That's poor work ethic, poor technique, poor hand placement, and poor footwork.

Nobody here was using those excuses about young players still developing, I'm certainly not giving an 11 yr veteran that leeway... in this thread alone, the focus is on Ifedi, I pointed out the foolishness of giving leeway to a player that has cost more, has more experience, and is SUPPOSED to be a franchise type tackle.... and yet, players like Oboushi ( who outperformed Brown) and Ifedi haven't " lived up to expectations" and need to "prove" themselves? Brown gets a pass for truly abysmal play? Based on what? His pro bowl 5 yrs ago for a different team? That he earns a lot of money? His name recognition?

I said at the time it wasn't a good trade, and that Seattle was paying far to much for a player on the backside of his career, that had just so happened to come off holding out for a new contract until wk 8 of the regular season ( imagine that, you're ok with that eh ID?)... who was traded instead of playing him so Houston ( who had tons of room under the cap) could insert an undrafted, rookie free agent.... and who had given up 3 sacks the week prior to Seattle....

I said then that he wasn't an answer, and that Seattle would likely miss the playoffs, and that those picks were instrumental in adding players to this team.

Baffles me how people could be gung ho for a past their prime , declining, tackle at the cost of a 1st, 3rd and 10m a yr player, that held out for 8 wks of the regular season, who will never sniff the HOF, yet want to dump a HOF player, in his prime, for a bag of cheetos because he wants to get paid his value, and says he won't show up if he isn't ( see the difference? One ACTUALLY held out, and is paid far more than he is worth, the other THREATENED to, because he's paid far less than he is).

SMH.... yeah, on my end, NO LEEWAY.

[idhawkman]

I said at the time it wasn't a good trade, and that Seattle was paying far to much for a player on the backside of his career, that had just so happened to come off holding out for a new contract until wk 8 of the regular season ( imagine that, you're ok with that eh ID?)... who was traded instead of playing him so Houston ( who had tons of room under the cap) could insert an undrafted, rookie free agent.... and who had given up 3 sacks the week prior to Seattle....

I too said it was too much. But it is what it is now.

Baffles me how people could be gung ho for a past their prime , declining, tackle at the cost of a 1st, 3rd and 10m a yr player, that held out for 8 wks of the regular season, who will never sniff the HOF, yet want to dump a HOF player, in his prime, for a bag of cheetos because he wants to get paid his value, and says he won't show up if he isn't ( see the difference? One ACTUALLY held out, and is paid far more than he is worth, the other THREATENED to, because he's paid far less than he is).

SMH.... yeah, on my end, NO LEEWAY.

I'm not "gung ho" for Brown. I want him to be successful now because he's here and him being unsuccessful is going to hurt my team. Same reason I'm not gung ho for him is the reason I'm not gung ho to sign Earl though. At least I'm consistent.

[RiverDog]

The deal for Brown made sense at the time. We had assumed that we were only a player or two away from competing for another trip to the SB, and the most glaring weakness was our offensive line. It was one of those situations where you say "screw it" and push all your chips to the center of the table. In retrospect it looks dumb, but at the time, it was seen as an opportunity to get our team over the hump.

[c_hawkbob]

The deal for Brown was a good one, it helped us last year in spite of his being hobbled by an ankle injury and it'll help us this year. Having a TC to work with Russ on top of last year's experience will show up big. He's a pro, he'll adjust to Russ' deeper drops and extended plays just fine.

[HumanCockroach]

. "Same reason I'm not gung ho for him is the reason I'm not gung ho to sign Earl though. At least I'm consistent"

I fail to see how the two are remotely similar. One hasn't declined, costs zero draft picks to acquire, is still playing at an elite level, hasn't missed a single game he's been available for, and has 3 to 5 more years at that level..... the other is Brown.

[NorthHawk]

The deal for Brown was a good one, it helped us last year in spite of his being hobbled by an ankle injury and it'll help us this year. Having a TC to work with Russ on top of last year's experience will show up big. He's a pro, he'll adjust to Russ' deeper drops and extended plays just fine.

I'm just worried about his age and when time will catch up to him.
OL often play into their mid 30's, but going downhill happens quickly then, too and most are already thinking about what's next in their working lives.
He'll be 33 this year before the season starts, so we won't get him for his best years.
His experience could be a huge benefit for the younger OL, though so that is part of the intangibles he brings.