New Anthem Policy and other changes

[RiverDog]

People who respond to informal polls often lie to get their anger out.
If the consequences of answering truthfully (and if they were football fans to begin with) was to not allow them to watch games, I believe the polls would be much different.
That, however is not possible, so we are left with surveys of people who may or may not watch making statements about their viewing habits.
The fact is the ratings that are verified have shown the NFL lost fewer viewers than most other TV shows and the traditional TV viewing is generally on the decline.
Again, we don't know how many have cut the cord, so it's quite unreliable data.

We're talking about two different things. You are talking about ratings decline in general, which includes people changing to different viewing platforms. I'm talking about the results from polls taken of those people that chose not to watch, such as the one I posted above.

Secondly, of course, there are some people that lie in a poll. But that's true of any poll, so unless we want to discount the results of any poll on any subject, do like DJT and call any poll that shows results we don't like fake news, we have to acknowledge that there's some degree of truth in what they're telling us, especially when it's consistent across numerous polls taken at various times and using different methods.

[burrrton]

we have to acknowledge that there's some degree of truth in what they're telling us, especially when it's consistent across numerous polls taken at various times and using different methods.

There's also the matter of it being undeniably intuitive- we can debate how big of an effect it had, but there's no way giving our country the middle finger before each game is going to have *no* effect on viewership, and there's no way it's positive.

[burrrton]

Eh, same folks busy grabbing a beer, filtering to their seats, or taking a leak during it.

I agree with the overall tone of your post, but just to be clear, the difference between what the players are doing and what 'seat filtering' fans are doing is in the intent. Indifference (or simply not being present for the ceremony) isn't nearly as offensive, if it is at all, as outright disrespect.

[Aseahawkfan]

No one would have noticed someone kneeling if Colin K. didn't do it and state his reasons why. He basically divided the nation not so much on disrespect for the flag though that was what it turned into, but on an issue that put Americans versus the police. And contrary to what people think, many Americans feel a great deal of respect and sympathy for the police. This debate pushed by the media making the police into racist white male cops killing unarmed black men was a bad idea from the start. It took a very complex issue with a lot of factors involved and tried to turn it into a simple racial incident thus inciting someone like Colin K. to start kneeling. It led to a lot of bad issues from black truly paranoid when dealing with cops causing them to react in an even more extreme fashion when dealing with the cops and vice versa. We had cops assassinated due to the media's handling of this issue. We had a general spark in racial tension fueled by the media and taken up by Colin K, while the man didn't vote or do anything real to fix this issue. Thus I can see why the owners want this handled. This isn't just a free speech issue, this is a free speech issue directly forcing the NFL fan to pick a side and have to listen to some athlete on a press podium telling them what side to pick. That's just not good for any business that is meant to entertain the public.

If the issue were clear cut, then it would make for an easier sell. It's not clear cut. Picking sides against the police is not something most Americans want to do. Awful situation for the NFL owners and players to be in.

[RiverDog]

No one would have noticed someone kneeling if Colin K. didn't do it and state his reasons why. He basically divided the nation not so much on disrespect for the flag though that was what it turned into, but on an issue that put Americans versus the police.

Kaepernick discredited his cause by some of the other things he did, like his piggy socks, his Castro tee shirt and subsequent admiration for that murderous regime, and his admission that he didn't vote in the 2016 election. It was a very poor tact on his part if he was honest about his stated objective, which I do not believe he was or is.

And contrary to what people think, many Americans feel a great deal of respect and sympathy for the police. This debate pushed by the media making the police into racist white male cops killing unarmed black men was a bad idea from the start. It took a very complex issue with a lot of factors involved and tried to turn it into a simple racial incident thus inciting someone like Colin K. to start kneeling. It led to a lot of bad issues from black truly paranoid when dealing with cops causing them to react in an even more extreme fashion when dealing with the cops and vice versa. We had cops assassinated due to the media's handling of this issue. We had a general spark in racial tension fueled by the media and taken up by Colin K, while the man didn't vote or do anything real to fix this issue. Thus I can see why the owners want this handled. This isn't just a free speech issue, this is a free speech issue directly forcing the NFL fan to pick a side and have to listen to some athlete on a press podium telling them what side to pick. That's just not good for any business that is meant to entertain the public.

If the issue were clear cut, then it would make for an easier sell. It's not clear cut. Picking sides against the police is not something most Americans want to do. Awful situation for the NFL owners and players to be in.

Good post. I can't add a lot to it other than I agree with what you are saying.

[RiverDog]

There's also the matter of it being undeniably intuitive- we can debate how big of an effect it had, but there's no way giving our country the middle finger before each game is going to have *no* effect on viewership, and there's no way it's positive.

Not only that, but when the President of the United States comes down strongly on one side, he's bound to have a very powerful influence over a very large number of people. 62 million people voted for that SOB, so you can't deny that he has one helluva lot of pull when it comes to an issue like this. Do you remember his campaign slogan? "Make America Great Again". Kaepernick played right into his hand as this is going to help Trump's re-election campaign. The more divided our nation is, the better chance a divisive figure like Donald Trump has at winning.

Sorry for going off topic a bit.

[HumanCockroach]

Eh, I don't see a person exercising the very rights this country was founded on, many fought and died to protect ( whether they support or would have supported the exercising of those rights is irrelevant) and is the thing 95% of the populace claims is what makes this country great, as a middle finger to the country. I stand, remove my hat and sing along during the anthem.... doesn't mean I feel the need to tell the person next to me or a player on the field, or the guy getting liquored up, or talking over over it to berate those not acting the way he deems necessary, or simply talking smack to an opposing fan.

You're certainly welcome to the opinion that it's disrespectful, I just choose to give others the same amount of respect to exercise their freedom to act, speak, protest, think however they choose, as long as it's not endangering me or mine, isn't illegal, and isn't threatening, I see it as nothing more than their choice. I would expect the same courtesy be extended to me, when I make mine.

I'm not entirely sure when this country decided that it got to chose how someone should act or think regardless of whether the was any type of law or rule dictating those actions, indeed "freedom" may have been an illusion all along, i suppose, but it feels like the last decade or two, that's drastically changed. Unfortunate, so few can't grasp that, but it is what it is....

[NorthHawk]

Eh, I don't see a person exercising the very rights this country was founded on, many fought and died to protect ( whether they support or would have supported the exercising of those rights is irrelevant) and is the thing 95% of the populace claims is what makes this country great, as a middle finger to the country. I stand, remove my hat and sing along during the anthem.... doesn't mean I feel the need to tell the person next to me or a player on the field, or the guy getting liquored up, or talking over over it to berate those not acting the way he deems necessary, or simply talking smack to an opposing fan.

You're certainly welcome to the opinion that it's disrespectful, I just choose to give others the same amount of respect to exercise their freedom to act, speak, protest, think however they choose, as long as it's not endangering me or mine, isn't illegal, and isn't threatening, I see it as nothing more than their choice. I would expect the same courtesy be extended to me, when I make mine.

I'm not entirely sure when this country decided that it got to chose how someone should act or think regardless of whether the was any type of law or rule dictating those actions, indeed "freedom" may have been an illusion all along, i suppose, but it feels like the last decade or two, that's drastically changed. Unfortunate, so few can't grasp that, but it is what it is....

I agree with you about that and there are some who don't see the big picture that by denying someone exercising their rights (which is what the NFL is trying to do), they are in effect saying that the sacrifices were for naught while on the other hand, the players protesting are in fact validating those sacrifices. Nobody can pick and choose which peaceful protests are valid and which are not and if we ever get to that point where choices are made, the rest of the rights will fall as well.
Someone much more intelligent than me said that the right to free speech/peaceful protest/gather peacefully etc. is not in place to validate your beliefs, it's in place to make you feel uncomfortable. In this way it seems it's doing its job.

[burrrton]

You're certainly welcome to the opinion that it's disrespectful

LOL. Ok.

[burrrton]

And contrary to what people think, many Americans feel a great deal of respect and sympathy for the police. This debate pushed by the media making the police into racist white male cops killing unarmed black men was a bad idea from the start. It took a very complex issue with a lot of factors involved and tried to turn it into a simple racial incident thus inciting someone like Colin K. to start kneeling.

Yep. As you indicate, the situation is made all the more distasteful because the circumstances he/they are "protesting" giving the country a raspberry aren't even *close* to as clear cut as some portray it.

[HumanCockroach]

Not entirely sure what the issue is with that statement, but apologize if it was taken as anything other than, you got the same rights as those choosing to having other opinions. By that I simply mean, everyone are supposed to have the SAME rights, those exercising their right to protest peacefully, and those feeling it's disrespectful, imho the problem stems from people trying to tell others, they can't exercise the rights, nor feeling, or having an opinion contrary to others.

Not a fan of people telling me how I should feel, live or act(within the law), can't imagine even you burton taking issue with that, as eventually something you value or care about will run contrary to the "majority" ( or at least the vocal minority). People start taking OTHERS rights, eventually, they going to become, the others...

( nice cut and paste of PART of a sentence or thought by the way, nicely done, making it look like it was some sort of put down, as opposed to saying I respect your right to that opinion, I would expect the same in return... lol)

[burrrton]

Not entirely sure what the issue is with that statement, but apologize if it was taken as anything other than, you got the same rights as those choosing to having other opinions.

No big- it's just that the gesture is an intentional refusal to show respect to the flag- disrespectful by definition.

We all know now what their actual beef is or was, but that's kinda why they only get support on this from small percentages of the public- the actual situation is not how they portray it, and their gesture is clearly directed at the wrong entity.

Not a fan of people telling me how I should feel, live or act(within the law), can't imagine even you burton taking issue with that, as eventually something you value or care about will run contrary to the "majority" ( or at least the vocal minority). People start taking OTHERS rights, eventually, they going to become, the others...

I have no idea where you'd get that from anything I've ever posted, and further, I've stated explicitly that I don't think the owners or the NFL should be able to stop them from doing it.

nice cut and paste of PART of a sentence or thought by the way, nicely done

Thanks- it's the part I had a beef with, so that's the part I copied. I didn't erase your post for Pete's sake, so everyone is free to read any context you provide, so relax.

[HumanCockroach]

Lol... I'm sure they'll scroll back to get the entirety, I mean, no one's ever taken part of something I've said and simply regurgitated that part, repeatedly, for a year, or more. Lmfao.

You removed it from the context burton, purposely.... you can claim it's the part you take issue with, but basically, you chopped it up, to create something that wasn't there. Like getting upset that someone says "you are a f#cking awesome guy" because they they said "you are a f#ck"... exactly the same thing.

I don't respect a piece of cloth when I stand, remove my hat and sing, surprises me anyone else does to be honest. I respect the sacrifices made, the things done by others, the freedoms I enjoy etc. A piece of cloth doesn't hold any type of respect in my mind, you have to earn respect, cloth is entirely incapable of accomplishing that...

[burrrton]

You removed it from the context burton, purposely.... you can claim it's the part you take issue with, but basically, you chopped it up, to create something that wasn't there.

LOL. You have got to be kidding. Bye, HC. You're exhausting.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess... don't think pointing out you took part of a sentence to create beef over saying exactly what I said in the later post should exhaust you... but who knows, I don't know your personal situation.

[burrrton]

I agree with you about that and there are some who don't see the big picture that by denying someone exercising their rights (which is what the NFL is trying to do), they are in effect saying that the sacrifices were for naught while on the other hand, the players protesting are in fact validating those sacrifices.

Well, if you "exercising your rights" starts hurting your employer's bottom line, they're within their rights to ask you not to on their time, and to fire you if you don't comply. And in that case, you wouldn't be fired for "exercising your rights"- you'd be fired for hurting their bottom line.

This is obvious if we personalize the situation. Picture yourself doing something Constitutionally protected but that makes your employer look horrible in the public eye- say you're all over the news holding neo-Nazi rallies in your company parking lot or something.

I don't know about you, but I'd be fired so fast it would make my head swim, it wouldn't be violating my COTUS protections, and NFL players should realize they're no different than anyone else. Yay equality.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess, be pretty stupid of your employer to remove those that are the very product you sell though... guess it boils down to whether they think having an inferior product is worth removing the rights of their product. Clearly, they don't, or they would be gone already. Owners aren't big on paying full on contracts to begin with regardless of performance, production etc, can't see them keeping product they view as already expendable, if it was the main reason they were losing money. Ultimately, money the driving force, and the value of their product ( the players) trump's really any personal feelings on the matter, as well as obviously the feelings of those that feel this is such a large issue that they've ceased supporting it.

Anyone thinking that they care enormously about players standing, sitting, or flipping off the flag, or how fans feel about it, fooling themselves.

You can try to spin it that way, and in the bulk of business it would be absolutely right, but pro sports unique as they are not providing a physical product, nor a service... the employees ARE the product, which isn't like any other business * with exception of a few I suppose... maybe brothel workers in Vegas

[HumanCockroach]

I don't know about you, but I'd be fired so fast it would make my head swim, it wouldn't be violating my COTUS protections, and NFL players should realize they're no different than anyone else. Yay equality

Think this is where most get turned around. They AREN'T like you or I, they are the very product itself, which by definition makes them unique. Can't sell, what you don't have.

( understand I ain't trying to attack you hear, just wanted to highlight it. A LOT of fans always cite things of that nature, but truthfully, they are not like us. They have an employer, but that's where most similarities end. Truthfully. I find it weird when people that have changed companies, or demanded raises, lose their minds over holdouts, or players going somewhere else.. citing lack of loyalty... like the vast majority would avoid a competitor because they got fired or something.. )

[NorthHawk]

They are more like contractors than employees.

[RiverDog]

They are more like contractors than employees.

They're neither and they're both. Individuals acting as a private contractor are not represented by a union, and union employees do not have individual employment contracts.

[burrrton]

They are more like contractors than employees.

Fair point, but unless it's something expressly forbidden (or protected) by the CBA, they're still subject to 'termination'.

They're neither and they're both.

Good way to put it.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess, but as someone whos profession requires union , I still don't see them as the same. I'm not the product, I provide the service, to build a product, athletes are the very product that is sold. Without them, there's no money to be had... as there's nothing to be sold... without me, there's literally thousands upon thousands, upon thousands that can either be trained, or already have the skill to do what I do, don't feel professional athletes fall into that category... I can catch, throw and run, tackle etc... but that doesn't mean anyone will pay to see it... lol

[Aseahawkfan]

I guess, but as someone whos profession requires union , I still don't see them as the same. I'm not the product, I provide the service, to build a product, athletes are the very product that is sold. Without them, there's no money to be had... as there's nothing to be sold... without me, there's literally thousands upon thousands, upon thousands that can either be trained, or already have the skill to do what I do, don't feel professional athletes fall into that category... I can catch, throw and run, tackle etc... but that doesn't mean anyone will pay to see it... lol

True, but they can find lots of players at the lower end to fill the cracks. Union mostly benefits the lower end players than the upper end players just like any profession. How many players on a given team are the upper echelon 5 million plus a year player? A lot of times we forget for all the stars, there are a lot role-players that round out a 53 man roster making far less that the union helps.

[burrrton]

True, but they can find lots of players at the lower end to fill the cracks.

There's this, plus to whatever degree the player is "irreplaceable", that will figure in to how much crap the team will tolerate. This is consistent with the point about affecting the bottom line- if you do more on the field to help it than your antics hurt it, you'll likely keep your roster spot.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure they can in fact find a lot of players to "fill the cracks" without lowering the quality of the product. If there were a lot available, they would be on teams today.

[c_hawkbob]

The best 53 is the best 53. Drug policy and spousal abuse policy and criminality sure, but politics just don't figure into it.

[HumanCockroach]

Do people honestly believe that? If owners could "fill in the cracks" at lower costs, it would have already occurred, with orrr without the rating drop, flag stuff. It's a business, many argue that that's what it is, then say stuff like that... it's like they don't think things completely through. Instead make a bunch of singular statements.

No different than a supplier that finds cheaper materials, they weigh increased profit vs decreased quality, if it isn't drastic they change, if it is, they don't.

There's no filling in the cracks of 50% or even 30%, or 10% without a severe drop in quality ( product) they know it, hence, salary cap goes up, consistently, player contracts go up consistently... that would NOT happen if there was just another guy they could bring in off the streets...

[Aseahawkfan]

Do people honestly believe that? If owners could "fill in the cracks" at lower costs, it would have already occurred, with orrr without the rating drop, flag stuff. It's a business, many argue that that's what it is, then say stuff like that... it's like they don't think things completely through. Instead make a bunch of singular statements.

No different than a supplier that finds cheaper materials, they weigh increased profit vs decreased quality, if it isn't drastic they change, if it is, they don't.

There's no filling in the cracks of 50% or even 30%, or 10% without a severe drop in quality ( product) they know it, hence, salary cap goes up, consistently, player contracts go up consistently... that would NOT happen if there was just another guy they could bring in off the streets...

Last year we did exactly that with our kicker. We went cheaper and it cost us. Every year teams find a cheaper player to do something on the lower end, often through the draft. If a guy is what they consider roughly equal for a cheaper cost, teams do it. They do the same when a player gets too old. All the time teams are looking to get cheaper in some parts even if they lower the quality some to retain key players like a QB to keep the team from completely dropping off. These decisions are made on a yearly basis. They do find replacements of relative ability that aren't always necessarily the best.

[HumanCockroach]

Was the product better? And when did somebody already in the league for years become a "fill in the cracks" guy?? We're taking about guys never in the league, or never on a roster. Not free agent signings...

[RiverDog]

And the mess just continues to grow....

Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, while testifying in the Kaepernick collusion grievance, shared the details of a phone call with the President.
“This (anthem protests)is a very winning, strong issue for me,” the President told Jones, according to Andrew Beaton of the Wall Street Journal. “Tell everybody, you can’t win this one. This one lifts me.”

Regardless of whether it’s rooted in fact, owners have chosen to believe that the protests are bad for business, in large part because the President had chosen to continue to stir up his base by chastising the NFL for allowing the protests. Which not only suggests that collusion arising from a mutual desire to placate the President may be influencing the ongoing unemployment of Kaepernick and Eric Reid, but also potentially bolsters the opinion of attorney Mark Geragos that the President may have run afoul of federal law by interfering with private employment decisions for political reasons.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/je ... at-he-wasn’t-letting-anthem-issue-go/ar-AAy1rhk?ocid=spartanntp

[burrrton]

The POTUS weighed in on something and it influenced people. Film at 11.

Again, it would be truly Trumpian to step on his own dck like this, but people are essentially trying to argue that a guy caught flipping off customers was only fired because someone else said they didn't like customers getting flipped off.

Peak 2018.

Now cue up a few people to argue "NO, this sounds perfectly reasonable to me!" and make my night.

[RiverDog]

So long as the POTUS did not make any threats or offer any incentives to the owners to do what he wants, he has a right just like any other American to speak out for or against something.

But I don't have to like it. I wish he'd just keep his cake hole shut and worry about being POTUS.

[Zorn76]

The NFL blew it.
Again.

[Seahawks4Ever]

FACT 1; There was only 7 players taking a knee at the end of the regular season.

FACT 2; There was a grand total of ZERO players who took a knee in the entire POST SEASON.

FACT; The issue was for all intents and purposes DEAD of its own weight. In other words, the protest had run its course.

FACT 3; The POTUS nor the NFL could let the issue DIE a good death, no, they both decided to throw gasoline of what was a dying ember and have blown the whole thing into a bonfire.

[burrrton]

I wish he'd just keep his cake hole shut and worry about being POTUS.

Agreed.

[RiverDog]

FACT 1; There was only 7 players taking a knee at the end of the regular season.

FACT 2; There was a grand total of ZERO players who took a knee in the entire POST SEASON.

FACT; The issue was for all intents and purposes DEAD of its own weight. In other words, the protest had run its course.

FACT 3; The POTUS nor the NFL could let the issue DIE a good death, no, they both decided to throw gasoline of what was a dying ember and have blown the whole thing into a bonfire.

Your top 2 statements are facts; The bottom two are your opinions based on the top 2 facts.

I don't blame the owners for trying to do something not only to end these protests, but to prevent something similar from happening in the future. But their solution most definetly had the effect of re-igniting the issue and making an uncomfortable situation much worse than had they done nothing at all.

[sully3407]

I am not downplaying anything going on here. They used their platform to bring awareness to their issue. That's great. But please tell me how continuing to kneel is going to fix what they are protesting? You've brought the attention to the issue. Now go out and do something about it instead of complaining how you can't kneel anymore.

[HumanCockroach]

Haven't heard them complaining about it.