OT: Matt Patricia

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure how many of you have been following this story, but I found it to be very disturbing:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/2018/0 ... 603835002/

Several things stick out like sore thumbs: (1)The charges, although serious, were never pursued. All it consisted of was an accusation. The charges were dropped. (2)It happened over 20 year ago, when Patricia was in college. (3)The story was not broke by the alleged victim coming forward, but by a newspaper, the Detroit Free Press. (4) Patricia has been adamant in his defense, says unequivocally that he's innocent, that the accusation was false. (5) According to laws in some states (which does not include Michigan), employers can't even ask an applicant about accusations of this nature.

To their credit, the Lions are sticking behind Patricia as the NFL is investigating the matter (not sure what there is to investigate). But there is no doubt in my mind had this story broke 3 months ago, the Lions would have never hired Patricia. And the thing of it is, what the Detroit Free Press did, although IMO unethical as hell, was completely legal.

There's no one more sensitive to sexual assault than I am, so I do not want to diminish the seriousness of the crime. But is this what we have come to, where an accusation is treated in much the same manner as a conviction?

[HumanCockroach]

Huh? Everything in that article that you linked contradicts all your reservations ... I'm confused why you would link it??

He was set to go to trial ( obviously it was pursued) there was medical evidence etc, etc ..

Not entirely sure how "sensitive" to sexual assault you are, when you gloss over like 90% of the article, and claim it's fake???

[RiverDog]

Huh? Everything in that article that you linked contradicts all your reservations ... I'm confused why you would link it??

He was set to go to trial ( obviously it was pursued) there was medical evidence etc, etc ..

Not entirely sure how "sensitive" to sexual assault you are, when you gloss over like 90% of the article, and claim it's fake???

I thought it was self explanatory why I linked the article, so that I could give others some background. I never claimed it was fake.

We don't know what the medical "evidence" was. It could have broken bones or it could have been a hickie. We also don't know why the alledged victim dropped the charges. It could have been due to personal embarrassment or it could have been that she didn't feel confident in the accusation.

I really don't give two hoots in hell how sensitive you think I am to sexual assault, or for that matter, anything else. Your observations mean nothing to me.

[Seahawks4Ever]

How could someone consider themselves to be more "sensitive" than anybody else??? Is there a story here? Anything you want to share Dog?

I can understand why HT found that statement incredulous because it could have come out of the mouth of Donald J. Trump, and we all know how he feels about sexual assault of women, he's in favor of it.

We all know how loose with the truth Trump is, I don't think it is a trait that should be emulated. It makes me SICK to think about what his BLATANT disregard for telling the truth is TEACHING my Great Grandchildren. I just thank goodness that both our children and our Grandchildren are all grown up and on their own but I have a 2 year old Great Grand Daughter and I cringe at the thought of a world she is going to find.

What IS the proper way to treat the opposite sex??

EASY, how would you want your wife, daughter, mother, sister, niece, aunt, etc... treated? Would you want them to have to put up with all of the B.S. that has been reported on these last several months??? Because, if someone cannot find EMPATHY for these women then they may as well be WISHING these horrible things down on to their very own loved ones who happen to be female! I was a kid when I learned that women were paid less for the same work, the same job as men did. That was WRONG then it is WRONG now and quite frankly, I don't give two hoots for anyone who doesn't agree either!

Someone could claim that they wouldn't wish those rotten things down on their own daughters, wives, etc.. but the TRUTH is if you can CONDONE that kind of behavior when it only affects "other people" you are only LYING to yourself when you convince yourself that it doesn't affect ALL women.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think the Tigers and NFL need to investigate the matter. If they find even a little truth to it, kick Patricia to the curb. I don't care if he Ben Roethlisberger-ed the girl because she was drunk. If he did, he has to go. The NFL has tolerated sexual misconduct far too long. It's time they sent a message.

[RiverDog]

I think the Tigers and NFL need to investigate the matter. If they find even a little truth to it, kick Patricia to the curb. I don't care if he Ben Roethlisberger-ed the girl because she was drunk. If he did, he has to go. The NFL has tolerated sexual misconduct far too long. It's time they sent a message.

The Tigers? Wrong sport.

The incident happened over 20 years ago. It is extremely difficult to investigate a supposed crime when that much time passes. Memories fade, objectivity is compromised, much of the physical evidence is no longer available. That's one of the reasons why we have a statute of limitations, because it's so hard to determine the facts.

Keep in mind that this is NOT the alleged victim that came forward, this is the media digging into the past to find a story. That's one of the biggest problems I have with this incident.

[HumanCockroach]

Think you should re read your own link. It was set to GO to trial, MEANING it WAS investigated, AND there was ENOUGH evidence to set a court date...

You can get all butthurt, or you can READ the article and look at your post again, you DID allude to "accusations being the same as guilt" in your post ( ie nothing major to back it up) .

Maybe you felt the Sandusky claims also were unfounded, until they were, I mean, those weren't investigated, and didn't come to light until 20 years later, and were divulged by heaven forbid a newspaper... bunch of hooey right?

[HumanCockroach]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_St ... se_scandal

[HumanCockroach]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Co ... ault_cases

[HumanCockroach]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Sharper

[HumanCockroach]

Shall I continue???

[Aseahawkfan]

The Tigers? Wrong sport.

The incident happened over 20 years ago. It is extremely difficult to investigate a supposed crime when that much time passes. Memories fade, objectivity is compromised, much of the physical evidence is no longer available. That's one of the reasons why we have a statute of limitations, because it's so hard to determine the facts.

Keep in mind that this is NOT the alleged victim that came forward, this is the media digging into the past to find a story. That's one of the biggest problems I have with this incident.

Lions then.

And we know 20 years ago they were able to sweep sexual misconduct under the table with pressure and money often threatening the woman with discussions of her sexual history being dragged out. I'd rather they look into it. And if they find something, kick him to the curb. Rape is a big deal. If they forced this girl to have sex, they gotta pay.

You ever read the case of Roman Polanski? There are people that think he deserves sympathy because it's been 40 years or more since he raped that 13 year old girl. He ran and never paid the price hiding in scumbag France. If this guy did the deed and never paid a price because of legal pressure, he should pay it now.

As much as I am wary of the press, they still have a purpose. Digging up stories like this for investigation is one of their purposes. NFL should look into it. Talk to the victim. If the victim is of sound mind and she's sure what happened, then he should pay the price. Why would the NFL want a former rapist in the league as a head coach? Best to check for certain and be sure you don't have some rapist that covered things up as a head coach.

And as Human Cockroach says, let's not forget about Sandusky that destroyed the career of a football icon who made the very wrong decision to cover it up. This doesn't sound as bad as Sandusky, but better to be sure.

[RiverDog]

How about we start talking about some FACTS rather than you folk's knee jerk, reactionary opinions:

“According to the Detroit News, Patricia, then 21 years old, and a friend of his, then 22, were indicted 22 years ago by a Texas grand jury, on one count each of aggravated sexual assault for an alleged incident involving a woman on South Padre Island.

The accuser did not testify and the case was dismissed 10 months later. The News said it tried multiple times to contact the woman for a comment, but she did not respond.

The newspaper added that many details about the case were unclear, because the police report has been discarded, and the police chief, grand jury forewoman, assistant prosecutor and defense attorneys all told the newspaper they could not recall the case, which was covered in Texas media at the time.

Patricia and his attorney both accused the woman of lying.

“In my opinion, it was a fabrication,” attorney Jeff Wilson added. “I’m telling you it was a ‘he said, she said.’ I don’t know what type of problems the girl was having; I don’t know why she made that allegation. We vehemently denied that he was doing anything wrong or did anything wrong.”

Wilson told the News that the woman failed to show up in court on the day that jury selection was set to begin – the Monday after the Super Bowl in January 1997.

Court records indicate that the woman requested that the case be dismissed, court records show, according to the News.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/05/1 ... eport.html

And just in case anyone is thinking of hush money ala our Commander in Chief, there's this:

There was no settlement agreement with the complaining individual, no money exchanged hands and there was no confidentiality agreement. In discussions today with Lions management, the reporter involved acknowledged that the allegations have not been substantiated.


I'm not going to say unequivocally whether Patricia did or didn't commit a crime. All I am saying is that you cannot "kick him to the curb" based on the information that is available.

And Roach, save your breath. You're on my ignore list.

[Aseahawkfan]

How about we start talking about some FACTS rather than you folk's knee jerk, reactionary opinions:

“According to the Detroit News, Patricia, then 21 years old, and a friend of his, then 22, were indicted 22 years ago by a Texas grand jury, on one count each of aggravated sexual assault for an alleged incident involving a woman on South Padre Island.

The accuser did not testify and the case was dismissed 10 months later. The News said it tried multiple times to contact the woman for a comment, but she did not respond.

The newspaper added that many details about the case were unclear, because the police report has been discarded, and the police chief, grand jury forewoman, assistant prosecutor and defense attorneys all told the newspaper they could not recall the case, which was covered in Texas media at the time.

Patricia and his attorney both accused the woman of lying.

“In my opinion, it was a fabrication,” attorney Jeff Wilson added. “I’m telling you it was a ‘he said, she said.’ I don’t know what type of problems the girl was having; I don’t know why she made that allegation. We vehemently denied that he was doing anything wrong or did anything wrong.”

Wilson told the News that the woman failed to show up in court on the day that jury selection was set to begin – the Monday after the Super Bowl in January 1997.

Court records indicate that the woman requested that the case be dismissed, court records show, according to the News.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2018/05/1 ... eport.html

And just in case anyone is thinking of hush money ala our Commander in Chief, there's this:

There was no settlement agreement with the complaining individual, no money exchanged hands and there was no confidentiality agreement. In discussions today with Lions management, the reporter involved acknowledged that the allegations have not been substantiated.


I'm not going to say unequivocally whether Patricia did or didn't commit a crime. All I am saying is that you cannot "kick him to the curb" based on the information that is available.

And Roach, save your breath. You're on my ignore list.

If the woman doesn't want to pursue it, then I guess it's over. She has to do something for this to have anything to go on.

[RiverDog]

If the woman doesn't want to pursue it, then I guess it's over. She has to do something for this to have anything to go on.

And the problem for the victim is that the statute of limitations have long since expired, so she wouldn't be able to file charges even if she wanted to, and as demonstrated above, there's almost no evidence for her to lean on. It would be her word against his, ie he said, she said.

But, I suppose that if she really wanted to, she could come forward, tell her story to someone like the Detroit Free Press and get paid big bucks for it, ruin the career and/or life of another person while not having to be held accountable for the accuracy of her story.

[Aseahawkfan]

And the problem for the victim is that the statute of limitations have long since expired, so she wouldn't be able to file charges even if she wanted to, and as demonstrated above, there's almost no evidence for her to lean on. It would be her word against his, ie he said, she said.

But, I suppose that if she really wanted to, she could come forward, tell her story to someone like the Detroit Free Press and get paid big bucks for it, ruin the career and/or life of another person while not having to be held accountable for the accuracy of her story.

It could happen. There is dishonesty on both sides as many people have learned including that kid that was jailed for rape ruining his NFL career all due to a lie.

[obiken]

River, its pretty cut and dried I think. They were talking about it on 1080 the fan in PDX, this was 21 years ago, she never bothered to show up for either court date so it was thrown out. Its sounds like a hatchet job to me, otherwise it would have surfaced again along time ago. I think now that he is a head coach he got dirt bombed. I could be wrong.

[RiverDog]

It could happen. There is dishonesty on both sides as many people have learned including that kid that was jailed for rape ruining his NFL career all due to a lie.

Of course, it could have happen. Patricia could have beaten her sensless, raped her, did all sorts of things. But without any evidence, and especially without a victim willing to testify or even tell her story, there is no way of determining the truth when the events occurred 21 years ago, a full three times the length of the statute of limitations.

Now I can understand it if there was considerable evidence and that a crime had occurred and was obviously covered up (Chappaquiddick, for example) or hush money paid to a victim, that we would not want our opinions to be bound by legal technicalities. But in all such cases like this where it's impossible to determine the facts and especially in this case where the alleged victim was not coerced or paid off, we have to default back to the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

Another thing that sticks out here is that by having the case dismissed because of the refusal of the alleged victim to testify, Patricia was denied his day in court and for a chance for him to clear his name. Instead, this case is dredged up 21 years later, three times the length of the statute of limitations, after which records and memories have been deleted, erased, or forgotten, there are people like Human Cockroach out there that are wrapping their arms around this story as if it's the gospel truth. All it takes for them is a juicy allegation.

[RiverDog]

River, its pretty cut and dried I think. They were talking about it on 1080 the fan in PDX, this was 21 years ago, she never bothered to show up for either court date so it was thrown out. Its sounds like a hatchet job to me, otherwise it would have surfaced again along time ago. I think now that he is a head coach he got dirt bombed. I could be wrong.

The only possible thing I can fault Patricia for is that he was less than forthcoming when the Lions asked him if he had ever been arrested for a crime, and he apparently gave a rather ambigious answer. But it should be noted that the question can't even be asked in most states. Even the company that did the background checks says that they don't report arrests unless it results in either a conviction or a plea bargain.

[HumanCockroach]

It's cool... run and hide like a coward was it?

Don't give two squirts. I'm cool not discussing things with folks incapable of seeing beyond their own bubble.

And you can skip the putting words and feelings into me, you sanctimonious #@#... that's why I left the first time. It wasn't the stupid inability to discuss things, objectively look at things, or the continuous running down, ...it was the INSISTENCE of saying I said or felt things I didn't.... just like here. I don't wrap my arms around anything, I pointed out the ridiculousness of posting what you did, and then linking something that blows the majority of your post up. Lmfao.

Later.

[Hawk Sista]

Flabbergasted by the OP.

[RiverDog]

Flabbergasted by the OP.

In what way?

[Aseahawkfan]

It's cool... run and hide like a coward was it?

Don't give two squirts. I'm cool not discussing things with folks incapable of seeing beyond their own bubble.

And you can skip the putting words and feelings into me, you sanctimonious #@#... that's why I left the first time. It wasn't the stupid inability to discuss things, objectively look at things, or the continuous running down, ...it was the INSISTENCE of saying I said or felt things I didn't.... just like here. I don't wrap my arms around anything, I pointed out the ridiculousness of posting what you did, and then linking something that blows the majority of your post up. Lmfao.

Later.

You don't discuss. You usually get on, make some claim, then start chiding and ridiculing people that don't agree with you because they're not using the same sources as you for "facts" you post, which are often alternative statistical analysis that are not in general use you pull from one of the numerous football analytics sites that try to distill NFL play into single numbers. You've always been this way. I don't imagine it will change. You're kind of a jerk. Then again I figured that's why you chose your username.

[NorthHawk]

It's obviously the off season.
See what it does to people when we don't get our game fix?

[HumanCockroach]

Nah, saying someone feels, embraces, or is saying something they aren't, then chiding them for months insisting they either said, felt or embraced ...it, ain't my thing. Feel free to say different, I honestly don't care.

Those words are a quote used by RD my first day back, I'm not doing anything but recycle his own words, if you take issue with them asy, I recommend discussing it with the one who felt they were acceptable to begin with, otherwise, whatever.

Last I checked, I haven't ever claimed anyone here was a "drunk tapping away on a keyboard" nor have I ever called someone a coward. If you think I'm chiding because i don't AGREE aimlessly with the majority, or refuse to go along, fine, matters not at all in the grand scheme of things. I weigh my opinions, I'm not a fan boy, or over critical, I reside in the middle, if that's not to yours or RDs liking, so what?

[obiken]

It's obviously the off season.
See what it does to people when we don't get our game fix?

Man that says it all!!

[Seahawks4Ever]

RD, you said it all. 21 years, alleged victim drops charges and refuses to cooperate. WHY was this dredged (perfect word) up NOW if not to destroy this mans life????

[RiverDog]

RD, you said it all. 21 years, alleged victim drops charges and refuses to cooperate. WHY was this dredged (perfect word) up NOW if not to destroy this mans life????

The answer is that this is no longer news reporting, it's tabloid journalism. If it were me, I'd suspend the press passes of all Detroit Free Press reporters to all Lions games for the 2018 season.

It would have been one thing if the alledged victim came forward, but this is all the result of the DFP going on a fishing expedition looking for any dirt they could find. If the alledged victim, for one reason or another, doesn't want to relive what ever it was that happened, I see no reason why a newspaper should take it upon themselves to expose it.

[Aseahawkfan]

The answer is that this is no longer news reporting, it's tabloid journalism. If it were me, I'd suspend the press passes of all Detroit Free Press reporters to all Lions games for the 2018 season.

It would have been one thing if the alledged victim came forward, but this is all the result of the DFP going on a fishing expedition looking for any dirt they could find. If the alledged victim, for one reason or another, doesn't want to relive what ever it was that happened, I see no reason why a newspaper should take it upon themselves to expose it.

You already know the answer to this one. It's about timing. There is a big push to expose every twisted thing men have done to women using positions of power. This guy was bringing a story to continue the process. You suspending press passes would attract another story of trying to cover up information to protect male abusers of women, so that wouldn't be smart either. You just watched a massive purging of abusers of women in various professions (mostly Hollyweird and corrupt politicians). Why would you try to cover up something that is so obviously problematic risking drawing more attention to he case? We had the sicko Weinstein and those at his company. The variously Fox News weirdos. The Larry Nasser case with all the gymnast girls. The Golden State killer who raped and killed women. Then there are old cases like Roman Polanski drugging and raping the 13 year old, then running off. They trot out the girl he did it too on occasion to say she forgives him so he can return to the United States. The list of female abuse is endless. I don't mind someone digging up old stories to determine if justice was not done. Men covering up mistreatment of women has to stop.

Tigers were smart to let this story play out and then let it die without doing anything to make it last any longer than it should. If the woman came forward, the reporter has a case. If she does not, the case dies with no action taken by the organization other than to check its validity. In the current climate, it's better to let things play out and react accordingly.

[Seahawks4Ever]

I am a First Amendment Free Speech kind of guy and normally I wouldn't advocate pulling press passes in retaliation to stories but the DFP certainly crossed a line in my book and maybe denying them access will send them a message that Freedom of the Press, while sacrosanct is NOT absolute.

This story strains common decency and the writers of this story, the editors who approved it, and the publishers that printed it should ALL be ashamed of themselves. Just as good cops should not stand up for bad cops, the peers of the DFP should not hold back their condemnation of the way they have treated this good man.

[NorthHawk]

I don't know if he's a good man or not. Everyone has skeletons in their closet, with some being huge and some small.
Regarding journalism today, it stems from the demise of print journalism where they used to pay reporters good money to get stories, but they were vetted and edited so that for the most part only the truth was told.
Today, we have a lot of freelance journalists who have blogs which sometimes intersperses comment with facts. As well, since the writers are paid only for the stories that are published, it stands to
reason that the more sensational the story, the higher the probability of it being published. Click bait is the expression and it drags down even the few remaining news outlets that do pay for staff writers.
We've gone from trusted journalists like Edward R. Murrow to a group of writers that can't be trusted because of those that either make things up to get paid, or create sensational headlines for things that
may or may not be true, and are very difficult to verify.
It's a shame for those that are honest because they get lumped in with those that just want to make money - or have to to make ends meet, but that's the state we're in today.
So when you read a story, take it with a grain of salt and like buying stocks do your due diligence before deciding if you believe it or not.

[RiverDog]

You already know the answer to this one. It's about timing. There is a big push to expose every twisted thing men have done to women using positions of power. This guy was bringing a story to continue the process.

The problem is that this country can't seem to separate the wheat from the chaff. Nasser is a pig that ought to be put away for life. Same with Harry Weinstein and Bill Cosby. But Tom Brokaw? We're painting with too wide of a brush stroke. People need to start calling out these miscarriages of judgement and draw a clear, distinct line between the Nassers and Patricias or else we're heading for a 21st century version of McCarthyism. All you need is an accusation to destroy a career.

Tigers were smart to let this story play out and then let it die without doing anything to make it last any longer than it should.

Go to the black board and write "The Detroit Lions" 100 times.

[RiverDog]

I don't know if he's a good man or not. Everyone has skeletons in their closet, with some being huge and some small.
Regarding journalism today, it stems from the demise of print journalism where they used to pay reporters good money to get stories, but they were vetted and edited so that for the most part only the truth was told.
Today, we have a lot of freelance journalists who have blogs which sometimes intersperses comment with facts. As well, since the writers are paid only for the stories that are published, it stands to
reason that the more sensational the story, the higher the probability of it being published. Click bait is the expression and it drags down even the few remaining news outlets that do pay for staff writers.
We've gone from trusted journalists like Edward R. Murrow to a group of writers that can't be trusted because of those that either make things up to get paid, or create sensational headlines for things that
may or may not be true, and are very difficult to verify.
It's a shame for those that are honest because they get lumped in with those that just want to make money - or have to to make ends meet, but that's the state we're in today.
So when you read a story, take it with a grain of salt and like buying stocks do your due diligence before deciding if you believe it or not.

Good post, North Hawk. But as I said above, it's up to us to call out this B.S. when we see it.

As far as Patricia being a good man or not, the one thing that I will say on his behalf is that since the incident 21 years ago, he's never subsequently been accused of any crime, sexual or otherwise, so if he did do it, he must have learned his lesson. He's certainly not a habitual abuser or there'd be more accusations surfacing. As we saw in the Cosby case, once one person comes forward, it breaks the dam and a bunch start coming out of the woodwork. That doesn't guarantee that he hasn't committed any transgressions, but it certainly lowers the odds.

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem is that this country can't seem to separate the wheat from the chaff. Nasser is a pig that ought to be put away for life. Same with Harry Weinstein and Bill Cosby. But Tom Brokaw? We're painting with too wide of a brush stroke. People need to start calling out these miscarriages of judgement and draw a clear, distinct line between the Nassers and Patricias or else we're heading for a 21st century version of McCarthyism. All you need is an accusation to destroy a career.

We tend to over-correct when we've been severely under-correcting.

Go to the black board and write "The Detroit Lions" 100 times.

Dang it. I keep mixing them up. Lions, Lions, Lions, must remember their football team name. Probably because the Mariners been playing them a lot lately.

[RiverDog]

We tend to over-correct when we've been severely under-correcting.

Very true. Let's hope none of us ever fall victim to an over correction.

Go to the black board and write "The Detroit Lions" 100 times.

Dang it. I keep mixing them up. Lions, Lions, Lions, must remember their football team name. Probably because the Mariners been playing them a lot lately.

Well, it's not like you're mixing up the Steelers with the Pirates or the Patriots with the Red Sox.

[Clem7]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/patricia-lions-will-not-face-discipline-for-sexual-assault-allegation/ar-AAxAXmB?ocid=spartanntp

NFL has closed the matter on their end.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Like I said, he IS a good man. I another article today about a woman who totally ruined a guys career by falsely accusing him of assault. Not should the media not jump to conclusions we the public should refrain from that too.

[RiverDog]

Like I said, he IS a good man. I another article today about a woman who totally ruined a guys career by falsely accusing him of assault. Not should the media not jump to conclusions we the public should refrain from that too.

Well, I'm not going to go so far as to claim that Patricia is some sort of Saint. As a rule, these types of accusations seldom involve a completely innocent and pure as the wind driven snow behavior. Something inappropriate almost certainly happened, the question being to what degree.

My biggest beef is the media on its own dredging this up from 21 years ago without so much as an accuser's statement and others wrapping themselves around this accusation as if it were the gospel truth. IMO it's irresponsible journalism and should not be tolerated. Patricia is a private citizen, not a public official, nor is he a candidate for a public office.

I'm gratified to learn that the NFL has cleared Patricia and the Lions of any wrong doing. As they noted, the incident occured well before Patricia was an NFL emplyee and subject to their personal conduct policy and Patricia was under no legal obligation to raise the issue during his interview.