Mebane and Sweezy, gone.

[obiken]

I'm not the only one.



Making sense of the Seahawks' offensive line philosophy
10:39 PM ET

Sheil KapadiaESPN Writer

After the Seattle Seahawks’ 2015 season ended, head coach Pete Carroll acknowledged that the overall offensive line performance was not good enough.

"I think it’s still a work in progress," Carroll said the day after the playoff loss to the Carolina Panthers. "I don’t think we’ve nailed it yet. I think this needs to be a really competitive spot again, and we’re going to work really hard to build it up. For the course of the season, we weren’t consistent enough. We found a real good rhythm, but we can’t start and go through that again. We don’t want to have to experience that if we don’t have to, if we can avoid it."

To most observers, the meaning of Carroll's words was obvious: Work really hard to build it up. The Seahawks were going to add talent on the offensive line this offseason. It was going to be a priority. And the unit they would put together for 2016 would provide a significant upgrade.
Bradley Sowell hasn't started a game since 2013, yet he represents one of Seattle's only additions on the offensive line so far this offseason. AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin

Yet here we are on March 29, and that hasn't come close to happening. The team lost left tackle Russell Okung and right guard J.R. Sweezy in free agency. The Seahawks have added Bradley Sowell and J'Marcus Webb. Sowell hasn't started a game since 2013 and seemed somewhat surprised at how quickly the Seahawks went after him. Webb will be on his fourth team in five seasons. He played right tackle -- the position at which the Seahawks plan on starting him -- for all of three games last season.

The holes that existed at the end of last year still remain. They are actually even more glaring now.

So it's fair to ask the question: What exactly are Carroll and general manager John Schneider thinking?

Below are three factors that likely play into the team's decision-making process on the offensive line.

1. The run game has worked with a rotating cast of linemen.

No one would argue that the Seahawks had a great offensive line last year, yet the offense ranked fourth in rushing efficiency, according to Football Outsiders' DVOA rankings. In the previous three years, it ranked first twice and seventh once. In 2015, the Seahawks played 11 different offensive line combinations, yet the run game continued to be a strength.

Some will point to individual grades from sites like Pro Football Focus, but the run game is about how the whole operation works together -- the scheming, the blocking and the vision of the back. Thomas Rawls averaged 2.97 yards before contact last season. The only running back in the NFL who posted a better number was Le'Veon Bell. In other words, the run game was working.

Russell Wilson's role in the ground attack cannot be overstated. When the Seahawks line up in the shotgun, defenses have to account for him as a ball carrier on zone-read plays, which is something that has benefited the run game greatly over the years.
The ability of quarterback Russell Wilson to make plays in the running game likely factors into the Seahawks' thinking when it comes to the offensive line. AP Photo/Bob Leverone

2. Pass protection improved noticeably in 2015.

During the bye in Week 9 last season, Seahawks coaches met at the team facility, and at the top of their priority list was to find a way to reduce the number of sacks Wilson was taking. Through the first eight games, Wilson had been sacked on 10.4 percent of his dropbacks, tops in the NFL.

The coaches gave him more options in the quick game, fixed some protection issues and emphasized getting rid of the ball in certain situations (third down, versus the blitz).

In the final eight games, Wilson's sack rate dropped to 4.9 percent. Only seven quarterbacks in the NFL were better at avoiding sacks during that span.

Pass-protection issues doomed the Seahawks early on against the Panthers in the playoff loss, but overall, Wilson had plenty of time in the second half of the year, as he went on a 24-touchdown, one-interception stretch.

3. They're not going to overpay for mediocre talent.

Schneider was asked last week whether he's comfortable with the current state of the offensive line.

"You can look at maybe besides three or four offensive lines throughout the league, it’s a concern for everybody," he said.

In Schneider's mind, demand clearly outweighs supply, which makes for a bad marketplace if you're a buyer. Do you pay up for mediocre talent? Or do you try to develop your own for cheap? The Seahawks have gone with the latter.

According to OverTheCap.com, the Seahawks have about $8.75 million committed to the offensive line in 2016. That's by far the lowest number in the NFL. No other team is at less than $14 million.

In the past, the Seahawks have shown a willingness to gamble on players like Jimmy Graham, Percy Harvin and, to a lesser extent, Cary Williams. But unless they see a true difference-maker, offensive line doesn't appear to be a spot where they're willing to spend a big chunk of their salary cap.

***

Overall, behind what most would describe as a mediocre offensive line last season, the offense ranked second in DVOA. From Week 10 on, it averaged 31.25 points per game, second in the NFL.

All of this is not to suggest that Seahawks fans should sit back and feel good about the state of the offensive line. It's the biggest question mark on the team, and it will likely be a major storyline throughout 2016 as the Seahawks try to get back to the Super Bowl after a one-year absence.

It's clear, though, that the organization feels like it has a winning formula with Wilson, an efficient run game and a strong defense. As the weeks go on, if a quality left tackle becomes available, the Seahawks will likely take a look. And they could very well address the need early in the draft.

But last season, the team ranked 30th in spending on the offensive line and still had one of the best offenses in the league. That philosophy could catch up with the Seahawks eventually, but for now, the organization is justifying its stance based on recent results.

[RiverDog]

Oh, come on, Obi! They haven't even taken a snap yet and you're hitting the panic button! You need to give them until at least November before they jell.

[c_hawkbob]

There's a lot of room between "panic button" and "head in the sand".

In regards to our O-line, I don't think Obi is quite at the former but I do believe we've got a few of the latter hereabouts accusing him of it.

[NorthHawk]

Although nobody knows what our FO will do in the draft, it looks like they might be bolstering the OL April 28th - 30th. And if not, there will be some cuts from other teams that just might help.
One thing's apparent from last year without even losing 2 starters, and that's quality depth. More competition can only help, and if they push Webb, Gilliam, or Sowell then that's even better so as to avoid the performance of last years start to the season.

[HumanCockroach]

Interestingly enough, everything Obi posted is pretty much spot on with everything I have been saying for three years. IE: there is a lack of talent, and despite many fans fretting, it has been successfully applied by Seattle. Overpaying for Mediocre talent ( bemoaned by several of you as an unwillingness to improve the line) or spending draft picks on mediocre talent ( bemoaned again) isn't a recipe for success. Seattle had been successful without wasting resources on those players, has a history of doing so, and until they actually fail doing so, I'm personally going to at the very least wait and see what transpires, doing anything else is indeed " hitting the panic button", Seattle will invest in a lineman, they just aren't going to overpay for injury prone, average, inconsistent lineman as many of you want. Smart, and forward thinking on their part. Unfortunate that even now people can't grasp the "dynasty" aspect of actually building one. They want instant gratification, not long term success.

[HumanCockroach]

I forgot to mention that my all time favorite Seahawks team is 2012.

That season (and, of course, that draft) was Crucial in allowing us to reach - and win - the SB the following year.

Why? It was just another failure.

[HumanCockroach]

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2941664/John ... nsive-line

[NorthHawk]

Yup, they failed in 2012.
They didn't make it to the top of the mountain that year.
Either you get there or you don't. There's no in between.

[Zorn76]

"Why? It was just another failure."

lol, I see what you did there

That team showed so much heart - and to have a rookie QB come in and accomplish what he did, we knew we were onto something good. The playoff experience we gained that season was so important. Had we not made the playoffs in 2012, then I believe it's doubtful we would've won the SB the following year. It would've been asking a lot of the 2013 team to win it all with no prior post season experience as a group.

[obiken]

I really wasn't trying to rip up this topic again. I was just showing some you that I am not Don Quixote, chasing windmills. There are Professional analyst that agree with me.

Thanks C-bob. This is for you and River. We finally get a franchise QB that we can ride at least 2 or 3 more SB's with, and the OL, correct me if I am wrong, has gone steadily down hill. Can you honestly say the OL of 16 is better than 2013? IF so, show me where.
I agree with Chuck Powell on KJR, that Pete and John are saying the war is no longer won in the trenches. They wont say that out loud of course. The Hawks are LAST in spending on the OL. 5.7% of cap. Number 31 is the Tenn Titans, 12%. Now, its all fine and well, if we only win 8 games this year and improve. However, My fear is the grand experiment is about to implode, and I just don't want to see RW hurt. A couple of torn ACL's and our future really is done. I am off on this guys?

[RiverDog]

I really wasn't trying to rip up this topic again. I was just showing some you that I am not Don Quixote, chasing windmills. There are Professional analyst that agree with me.

Thanks C-bob. This is for you and River. We finally get a franchise QB that we can ride at least 2 or 3 more SB's with, and the OL, correct me if I am wrong, has gone steadily down hill. Can you honestly say the OL of 16 is better than 2013? IF so, show me where.
I agree with Chuck Powell on KJR, that Pete and John are saying the war is no longer won in the trenches. They wont say that out loud of course. The Hawks are LAST in spending on the OL. 5.7% of cap. Number 31 is the Tenn Titans, 12%. Now, its all fine and well, if we only win 8 games this year and improve. However, My fear is the grand experiment is about to implode, and I just don't want to see RW hurt. A couple of torn ACL's and our future really is done. I am off on this guys?

Obi, your concerns are completely justified. Not only are we deploying one of the lowest paid OL's, in 2015 we are ranked as one of the worst performing OL's right along with the Titans. Plus we had our worst season in since 2011. It's no coincidence. There's a direct relationship between those three undeniable facts.

I don't think there's any question that Pete does not have the offensive line established as one of his top priorities. We've discussed it for years. It's hard to argue with his philosophy as he's been very successful. But we haven't been nearly as bad in the trenches the three years prior, 2012-2014, arguably the three best teams in franchise history, than we were in 2015. And despite pledges to the contrary, I don't see a lot of evidence that it's going to get much better anytime soon, at least as we sit here today a month away from the draft.

[HumanCockroach]

You guys should actually read the whole article, at the end of which he points out that the offense scored more points than every team in the NFL save one from week ten on, has been one of the best running teams four consecutive seasons, Wilson was pressured LESS than all but one QB during that span, had more TDs, less interceptions etc. I'm not entirely sure where exactly you aren't seeing improvement??? In fact, all you are doing is "guessing" at decline based on your own talent evaluation, not actual performances. No one is agreeing with Obi's assessment in that article, they are actually pointing out WHY Seattle has made the revolving door on the line WORK, and actually excel in spite of it.

LMAO.

But last season, the team ranked 30th in spending on the offensive line and still had one of the best offenses in the league. That philosophy could catch up with the Seahawks eventually, but for now, the organization is justifying its stance based on recent results.

[RiverDog]

You guys should actually read the whole article, at the end of which he points out that the offense scored more points than every team in the NFL save one from week ten on, has been one of the best running teams four consecutive seasons, Wilson was pressured LESS than all but one QB during that span, had more TDs, less interceptions etc. I'm not entirely sure where exactly you aren't seeing improvement??? In fact, all you are doing is "guessing" at decline based on your own talent evaluation, not actual performances. No one is agreeing with Obi's assessment in that article, they are actually pointing out WHY Seattle has made the revolving door on the line WORK, and actually excel in spite of it.

LMAO.

Laugh your ass off at this:

Summary: It’s amazing that the Seahawks got as far as they did with a line that struggled to open many holes, and a pass protection unit that was sieve-like. It got better when Patrick Lewis came in, but their poor play serves to only highlight how good the backs were, and how talented Russell Wilson is at extending plays.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... is-season/

I'm not "guessing" at anything. We had the worst W/L record since 2011. That's a fact.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I think this goes back to the argument that has always been going on for the last 3-4 years. Should the front office pick offensive line players early in the draft even if they feel the value isn't there compared to other skill position players?

I mean, Okung was a no-brainer of a pick, at the time, but has there been any other can't-miss line prospects that should have been drafted over other players acquired instead?

It is frustrating, to be sure, to see the amount of pressure Wilson faced in the first half of the season, but I also can't ignore the drastic improvement in the back half of the season, so that leads me to believe the coaching is in place to make this work. I also don't think there are going to be a lot of top OL options for the Seahawks when they pick without giving up the farm to move up. I really am concerned as much as anybody over how the o line is going to shape up, but I don't advocate reaching with our draft capital on o-line talent if they truly are not worth the draft slot. I have to tell myself these are professional talent scouts and coaches, so they should know best how to get this done, and I've been happy with the results since they took over the ship 5 years ago.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not "guessing" at anything. We had the worst W/L record since 2011. That's a fact.

RiverDog
Legacy

Posts: 4813
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

And the highest scoring offense since 2005 from week ten on. So yeah, I will indeed LMFAO at anyone claiming to know what will happen before it actually does. If you think scoring 31 points a game compared to 13 before the adjustments, isn't "improvement" ( more than that 2011/12/13/14 team) I'm not sure you understand the definition of the word.

For reference here's the 05' number two offense in the NFL ( number one scoring offense at 28.3 less than 2 points more a game than the current edition), Seattle Seahawks with multiple all pro offensive lineman at their best, three pro bowlers, the league MVP etc... Feel free to compare them. This IS the line you pine for right?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2005

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total

Here's the 14 Seahawks ( you know the one who went to the SB notice how the 15 team scored 2 more points than the year prior, if that doesn't constitute improvement than again, I think you should look up the definition).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2014
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2011
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2013
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total

CONSISTENT improvement EVERY year. There's more than just the offense playing, there has also been declines in OTHER areas ( like points allowed, coverage on punts and kickoffs etc) placing the win/loss record on a single unit is something I expect from teenagers and bandwagon fans, NOT fans that are knowledgeable about the sport. You are better than that RD. WTF?

[monkey]

I really wasn't trying to rip up this topic again. I was just showing some you that I am not Don Quixote, chasing windmills. There are Professional analyst that agree with me.

Thanks C-bob. This is for you and River. We finally get a franchise QB that we can ride at least 2 or 3 more SB's with, and the OL, correct me if I am wrong, has gone steadily down hill. Can you honestly say the OL of 16 is better than 2013? IF so, show me where.
I agree with Chuck Powell on KJR, that Pete and John are saying the war is no longer won in the trenches. They wont say that out loud of course. The Hawks are LAST in spending on the OL. 5.7% of cap. Number 31 is the Tenn Titans, 12%. Now, its all fine and well, if we only win 8 games this year and improve. However, My fear is the grand experiment is about to implode, and I just don't want to see RW hurt. A couple of torn ACL's and our future really is done. I am off on this guys?

I don't think that anyone is trying to say that there are no legitimate reasons for concern at this point, (I know I am not anyway there clearly are reasons), rather, I am trying to remind you and others who are worried that, as Pete recently said on KJR, "We're not done just yet."

There are still several free agency dates up-coming, which are very important, and may provide a free agent lineman to snatch up. And of course, there is still the draft, from which I expect probably three offensive linemen (like last year).

When Pete and John talk about the line *as it currently stands* and tell you who would start where, *as it currently stands*, that is NOT the same as saying, "Well guys, this is it, this is your starting offensive line for 2016."
Between now and when training camp starts, we will most likely add at least three to four offensive linemen.
Of those three to four, I fully expect AT LEAST one of them will be an immediate starter, if not two.

That's the point really. There's no reason to be worried yet. There's just not any at all, not because you should get all excited about the line as it is currently constituted, but rather, because the line as it is currently constituted, WILL NOT BE THE LINE WE START THE SEASON WITH.
It won't, and all these worries fans are having about the line, are for naught. By the time training camp rolls around, the line will be much improved, both from where it stands now, and, I believe, from last season as well.

[obiken]

I agree Monk, maybe he isn't done yet,but what is left?? He is out of FA options unless they make my dream deal for Joe Thomas. The rest that are left are the scraps. We are too low to get one of the good OLineman in the draft. So I am not going to call PC a liar but I have serious doubts on his statements.

[Zorn76]

I don't think that anyone is trying to say that there are no legitimate reasons for concern at this point, (I know I am not anyway there clearly are reasons), rather, I am trying to remind you and others who are worried that, as Pete recently said on KJR, "We're not done just yet."

There are still several free agency dates up-coming, which are very important, and may provide a free agent lineman to snatch up. And of course, there is still the draft, from which I expect probably three offensive linemen (like last year).

When Pete and John talk about the line *as it currently stands* and tell you who would start where, *as it currently stands*, that is NOT the same as saying, "Well guys, this is it, this is your starting offensive line for 2016."
Between now and when training camp starts, we will most likely add at least three to four offensive linemen.
Of those three to four, I fully expect AT LEAST one of them will be an immediate starter, if not two.

That's the point really. There's no reason to be worried yet. There's just not any at all, not because you should get all excited about the line as it is currently constituted, but rather, because the line as it is currently constituted, WILL NOT BE THE LINE WE START THE SEASON WITH.
It won't, and all these worries fans are having about the line, are for naught. By the time training camp rolls around, the line will be much improved, both from where it stands now, and, I believe, from last season as well.

- monkey

^^^This!

This is precisely what I've been trying to communicate when it comes to our OL, hence the complete lack of concern (for me) about "losing" Okung and Sweezy.

Well said, monkey.

[NorthHawk]

With last years early performance of the OL costing us a chance at HFA and losing 2 players that weren't the major problem, there is room to be concerned.
There probably wasn't anything to be done with Okung and the contract offered to Sweezy was too rich for us, but the biggest problem is continuity and practice time together.
The OL is often considered the area that requires the most coordination and familiarity amongst its players to be effective. Plugging and playing doesn't work as well as at other positions, so the "chemistry" has to be right to get the most out of them as a group. So, yes, there is room for concern.

The good news is 2nd and later round picks are cap wise relatively inexpensive, so if they find one or two that can push the starters and provide competition/quality depth, the OL could improve quickly. But time is a big enemy when swapping out 2 starters and maybe moving other players around.

[mykc14]

I agree Monk, maybe he isn't done yet,but what is left?? He is out of FA options unless they make my dream deal for Joe Thomas. The rest that are left are the scraps. We are too low to get one of the good OLineman in the draft. So I am not going to call PC a liar but I have serious doubts on his statements.

I don't get the complaining about PC and JS at this point in the offseason. They absolutely still can upgrade this OL, especially via the draft. There are starters to be had in the first 3 rounds. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a rookie from this draft starting next year, maybe even two. There is still time to make a trade (although I really doubt that happens). There are plenty of cuts that are going to take place between now and the beginning of the season (Clady maybe?). In short there is just too much time between now and the beginning of the season to panic about the OL. What would you have had them do? Pay Sweezy? His cap hit this year is over 9 mil!!!! Keep Okung? Obviously he wasn't resigned because they didn't want to keep him. They easily could have matched the offer from Denver but they decided that they didn't want him. Sign a free agent? The best free agent guard signed for 11 mil/yr which is just crazy. Too many teams had to spend too much money.

Instead of looking at what they could have done maybe look at why they haven't done those things. IMO, they really feel like Gilliam can be a decent LT in this league. He certainly is athletic enough. I also think they have enough confidence in Glowinski that if he had to start he could. Same with Webb. I also think they can get a starter or two in the draft this year. Either way there are going to be growing pains again, but if you have Gilliam, Webb, a couple of rookies and Glowinski improve like the line did over the last half of the season last year you have set yourself up to have a decent cheap OL for a few years to come.

[RiverDog]

I don't get the complaining about PC and JS at this point in the offseason. They absolutely still can upgrade this OL, especially via the draft. There are starters to be had in the first 3 rounds. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a rookie from this draft starting next year, maybe even two. There is still time to make a trade (although I really doubt that happens). There are plenty of cuts that are going to take place between now and the beginning of the season (Clady maybe?). In short there is just too much time between now and the beginning of the season to panic about the OL. What would you have had them do? Pay Sweezy? His cap hit this year is over 9 mil!!!! Keep Okung? Obviously he wasn't resigned because they didn't want to keep him. They easily could have matched the offer from Denver but they decided that they didn't want him. Sign a free agent? The best free agent guard signed for 11 mil/yr which is just crazy. Too many teams had to spend too much money.

Instead of looking at what they could have done maybe look at why they haven't done those things. IMO, they really feel like Gilliam can be a decent LT in this league. He certainly is athletic enough. I also think they have enough confidence in Glowinski that if he had to start he could. Same with Webb. I also think they can get a starter or two in the draft this year. Either way there are going to be growing pains again, but if you have Gilliam, Webb, a couple of rookies and Glowinski improve like the line did over the last half of the season last year you have set yourself up to have a decent cheap OL for a few years to come.

Complaining isn't the right word. Concerned is a much better term. Our offensive line was already a weakness going into the offseason, we've seen a lot of offensive linemen depart over the past couple of years, and they aren't being replaced by equivalent talent. At least for my part, that isn't a complaint as much as it is an observation.

You're right, there is still plenty of time between now and September, the draft is still a month away, and we shouldn't rule out some sort of a trade. But I'm not holding my breath, either.

[mykc14]

Complaining isn't the right word. Concerned is a much better term. Our offensive line was already a weakness going into the offseason, we've seen a lot of offensive linemen depart over the past couple of years, and they aren't being replaced by equivalent talent. At least for my part, that isn't a complaint as much as it is an observation.

You're right, there is still plenty of time between now and September, the draft is still a month away, and we shouldn't rule out some sort of a trade. But I'm not holding my breath, either.

I wouldn't say anybody who has a concern about the OL is complaining but OBI's last post seemed more of a complaint that just voicing concern to me.

[Hawktawk]

Seattle had their worst record in 4 years but lets also remember the defense was dreadful late in games the first half of the season as well. The offensive issues were not strictly line issues either. Play calling was off, late game offensive strategy was poor. That offense the last 7 weeks though.. Ill take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[NorthHawk]

Seattle had their worst record in 4 years but lets also remember the defense was dreadful late in games the first half of the season as well. The offensive issues were not strictly line issues either. Play calling was off, late game offensive strategy was poor. That offense the last 7 weeks though.. Ill take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The Defense wasn't playing up to par early, but the Offense should at least be able to get 1 first down in the last few drives to salt away a game, and that happened at least once. Maybe with a short drive instead of 3 and outs in other early games we might have had a couple of more wins. Perhaps it was play calling, but with the changes (and we will see the same number again this year) it might have been a lack of confidence early in the OL to get the job done.

I just hope with last years experience we won't make the same mistakes in the play calling area and they can get their "chemistry" up front together early.

[obiken]

I wouldn't say anybody who has a concern about the OL is complaining but OBI's last post seemed more of a complaint that just voicing concern to me.

NY it was a question off a concern. IF you accept the premise that PC is not done yet with the OL, where is he going to get viable talent to improve us not withstanding the JT trade? That's all I asked. It was not a complaint. Wiesnowski (sp) we passed on him last year. Moreover, we don't have that much money left especially if you factor in the whole Bennett and Kam situation. That's a whole separate thread. That leaves the DRAFT. We are too far down to the draft chain to get a plug and play OL. O Lineman are the one commodity that you don't usually get a starter out of the 1st round. I will not be at all shocked this year IF PC takes a DT in the first round. In fact, I will go on record as saying he wont. That give Human some major fodder if he does! The guys he brought in are dog food, and I just dont see that much left in FA. Old NFL saying, O Lineman don't grow on trees folks. That is my concern, IF you take it as a complaint that's on you.

[NorthHawk]

I think there will be a number of interior OL available at 26 that could start.
We could stand to upgrade the interior of the OL where there were big problems early last year and that looks like it might be a strength in this draft. LT, not so much at 26, but someone who could start at one of the OT spots later on might be found between 26 and 100 and probably a few surprises even later as happens in most drafts.

[mykc14]

NY it was a question off a concern. IF you accept the premise that PC is not done yet with the OL, where is he going to get viable talent to improve us not withstanding the JT trade? That's all I asked. It was not a complaint. Wiesnowski (sp) we passed on him last year. Moreover, we don't have that much money left especially if you factor in the whole Bennett and Kam situation. That's a whole separate thread. That leaves the DRAFT. We are too far down to the draft chain to get a plug and play OL. O Lineman are the one commodity that you don't usually get a starter out of the 1st round. I will not be at all shocked this year IF PC takes a DT in the first round. In fact, I will go on record as saying he wont. That give Human some major fodder if he does! The guys he brought in are dog food, and I just dont see that much left in FA. Old NFL saying, O Lineman don't grow on trees folks. That is my concern, IF you take it as a complaint that's on you.

That's fine. If you were not complaining then so be it. There certainly is a grey area between being concerned and complaining. It seemed to me when you began to go to an extreme and say there is nothing out there. No FA left, no trade options left, and no starting talent in the draft that it has become more of a complaint then a concern. Like, 'they haven't done anything to address the OL yet and there is absolutely nothing left out there to upgrade our current OL so PC and JS have put us in an even worse OL position then last year. They said they were going to upgrade the OL and they haven't. I'm not saying their lying but... they might not be telling the truth." seems a little beyond concern to me, but if that's the way I see it I guess that's on me.

[RiverDog]

I think there will be a number of interior OL available at 26 that could start.
We could stand to upgrade the interior of the OL where there were big problems early last year and that looks like it might be a strength in this draft. LT, not so much at 26, but someone who could start at one of the OT spots later on might be found between 26 and 100 and probably a few surprises even later as happens in most drafts.

First off, it's not a foregone conclusion that we're going to take an OL with our #26 overall, and secondly, I'm not full of confidence in our brain trust being able to draft a competent OL that can start in their first season. Outside of Okung, who was a top 10 pick, we haven't had a lot of luck drafting OL that can produce decent results in their first season...Carpenter, Moffitt, Britt, none of those guys played well at the get go.

I'm secretly hoping that we'll work out a deal for Joe Thomas...well, maybe not so secretly. Our future is now, and we need players that can contribute immediately, not some 3-4 year project. Thomas would lock up the LT spot for the next 4-5 years.

[HumanCockroach]

I'll bite. Name the starters picked in the first round that didn't "struggle" their first season? Even Jones struggled his first year. Good Lord people have selective memories. It doesn't matter if the pick is number 1 or 32, if it's Carroll or John Smith from team x, NO ONE is picking these day one starters that never struggle, I would LOVE just once for someone claiming the "no ability" in regards to evaluating o-line talent to actually provide a group of players Seattle COULD have drafted, that they missed. Not one guy ( which means all those other teams also missed) but this slew of quality lineman they have missed.

[NorthHawk]

"First off, it's not a foregone conclusion that we're going to take an OL with our #26 overall, and secondly, I'm not full of confidence in our brain trust being able to draft a competent OL that can start in their first season. Outside of Okung, who was a top 10 pick, we haven't had a lot of luck drafting OL that can produce decent results in their first season...Carpenter, Moffitt, Britt, none of those guys played well at the get go.

I'm secretly hoping that we'll work out a deal for Joe Thomas...well, maybe not so secretly. Our future is now, and we need players that can contribute immediately, not some 3-4 year project. Thomas would lock up the LT spot for the next 4-5 years."

I was responding to obiken who said there are no plug and play OL at 26 this year. I think there will be a number available at 26 who could challenge to start especially G/C. I'm not sure an older player can stand up to the physical play that our Offense demands even if they've been injury free so far. Thomas has a lot of miles on him and veterans often retire from accumulations of injuries.

[monkey]

I agree Monk, maybe he isn't done yet,but what is left?? He is out of FA options unless they make my dream deal for Joe Thomas. The rest that are left are the scraps. We are too low to get one of the good OLineman in the draft. So I am not going to call PC a liar but I have serious doubts on his statements.

Last year, after the draft is when Mathis became a free agent. Now we didn't sign him, but the point is, he didn't pop up until AFTER the draft.
Happens every year.
Also, after a certain date, (can't remember off the top of my head), free agents no longer count against the compensation picks that Schneider is so fond of.
You can just bet your sweet arse that Pete and John are just waiting for that date.
There are still some name out there, (maybe not ones you like right now) but there will be more added after that date, and after the draft, and probably even as late as after training camp starts. There are always cuts made in training camp as well.
The line is FAR from set.
As for Joe Thomas, while he's obviously a good player, considering his age, and the draft capital it would take to land him, I'd MUCH rather the Seahawks just add more pieces to the interior of the line, (I'd like to see a new LG from the draft and a veteran center, like Wisnewski or someone similar).
In the long run, I think they'd be far better off, making a couple of lesser upgrades in the interior, while spending less money, and saving the draft picks, vs. making a bigger upgrade at just one position, for an older, more expensive player who would cost multiple draft picks.

In other words, I believe that a line of LT: Gilliam LG: rookie/Webb Center: cheap veteran such as Wisnewski, RG: Glowinski RT: Webb/rookie > LT: Thomas LG: Britt/Webb, Center: Lewis RT: Gilliam.
I just think that we can do more by slightly upgrading two spots, than we can by upgrading LT. Given our QB, I also think that the interior part of the O-line is the more important part for us. Wilson is good at running away from, or around guys coming off the edge. What he is not as good at is, stepping up into the pocket and making throws, or avoiding DT's who are collapsing the pocket. (See last years Carolina game!)

[monkey]

What would you have had them do? Pay Sweezy? His cap hit this year is over 9 mil!!!! Keep Okung? Obviously he wasn't resigned because they didn't want to keep him. They easily could have matched the offer from Denver but they decided that they didn't want him. Sign a free agent? The best free agent guard signed for 11 mil/yr which is just crazy. Too many teams had to spend too much money.

Instead of looking at what they could have done maybe look at why they haven't done those things. IMO, they really feel like Gilliam can be a decent LT in this league. He certainly is athletic enough. I also think they have enough confidence in Glowinski that if he had to start he could. Same with Webb. I also think they can get a starter or two in the draft this year. Either way there are going to be growing pains again, but if you have Gilliam, Webb, a couple of rookies and Glowinski improve like the line did over the last half of the season last year you have set yourself up to have a decent cheap OL for a few years to come.

I simply couldn't agree more.
To add to that, there's another reason the Seahawks didn't want to go out and sign someone, aside from the money, and that is the compensation pick they would have lost.
That is a big, big, BIG deal to Schneider! Those compensatory picks are like gold nuggets to our GM, it is the primary way he is able to refill all our free agency losses we are taking right now.
We are no longer able to add, or even keep, a middle class, or middle tier player on this team. Middle tier free agents (whether our own or from other teams) have the choice of signing low cost, one or two year, "prove it" deals with us, or else find another team. And even if a middle tier free agent from another team is willing to do that to sign with us, John will SERIOUSLY have to think about it, since it may cost us a compensatory pick. (This year, Webb looks like his deal will cost us one of those picks, which along with his salary, makes him a virtual lock to be a starter somewhere on the line this year.)

John is clearly trying to emulate the path that teams like the Patriots and the Ravens, and to a lesser extent, the Steelers and Packers have taken. Each of those teams have (mostly, with a few exceptions here and there) allowed their mid tier free agents to walk, and have instead relied HEAVILY on the draft, and on the compensatory picks to rebuild their teams.
It's simply the smartest way to stay on top when you have to pay to keep a core of talented superstars like the Seahawks have, together.

[monkey]

"First off, it's not a foregone conclusion that we're going to take an OL with our #26 overall, and secondly, I'm not full of confidence in our brain trust being able to draft a competent OL that can start in their first season. Outside of Okung, who was a top 10 pick, we haven't had a lot of luck drafting OL that can produce decent results in their first season...Carpenter, Moffitt, Britt, none of those guys played well at the get go.

I'm secretly hoping that we'll work out a deal for Joe Thomas...well, maybe not so secretly. Our future is now, and we need players that can contribute immediately, not some 3-4 year project. Thomas would lock up the LT spot for the next 4-5 years."

I was responding to obiken who said there are no plug and play OL at 26 this year. I think there will be a number available at 26 who could challenge to start especially G/C. I'm not sure an older player can stand up to the physical play that our Offense demands even if they've been injury free so far. Thomas has a lot of miles on him and veterans often retire from accumulations of injuries.

Firstly, no one said that it was a lock we would take an O-linemen with our #26. However, we have four picks in the first three rounds, and I can GUARANTEE you we will find an O-lineman that will at least push the current starter for time, from one of those four picks.
Second, of those names, Okung, Carpenter, Moffitt, Britt, all four ended up as starters. One of them was a pro-bowler, one of them ended up signing a big second contract with the Jets, and is doing quite well there. One of them quit football (though I believe he was trying to come back recently), and the other is *currently* listed as our starting LG.
The truth is, given the hit rate in the draft, that's really not half bad AT ALL!
You should actually have MORE faith, because, while you may not think those players are great, 1 pro bowler, 1 second big contract, one low level starter, and one absolute flop, is probably league average, if not better.

I addressed your Joe Thomas trade in the post above, but suffice to say, he's too old, too expensive, would cost too many picks, and would only upgrade one position, when we could instead, upgrade two spots, more cheaply.
Also, to say the future is now, may be true, but the future is also ten years from now as well! So long as we have Russell Wilson at QB, we have a window of opportunity. It would be EXTREMELY unwise to mortgage the future for this year.

Your expectations seem unrealistic to me.

[NorthHawk]

Are you responding to me or RD?

[obiken]

What about my strategy: overload the cap for QB, RB, Center, Guards, and Tackles. You would build a wall around RW, control the ball, keep your average defense off the field, and their defense on it. Am I off? Is the Obi plan more doable than the PC plan of paying the 2 DE's, MLB, and the 4 Db's? With the new rules I like it.

[NorthHawk]

What about my strategy: overload the cap for QB, RB, Center, Guards, and Tackles. You would build a wall around RW, control the ball, keep your average defense off the field, and their defense on it. Am I off? Is the Obi plan more doable than the PC plan of paying the 2 DE's, MLB, and the 4 Db's? With the new rules I like it.

Pete is a Defensive coach so it's probably not in the cards. Besides Defenses win championships - and that's not just a saying as most of the recent Super Bowl winners were Defensive in nature.
As well their plan might fit better with the limited practice time the CBA permits.

[RiverDog]

I'll bite. Name the starters picked in the first round that didn't "struggle" their first season? Even Jones struggled his first year. Good Lord people have selective memories. It doesn't matter if the pick is number 1 or 32, if it's Carroll or John Smith from team x, NO ONE is picking these day one starters that never struggle, I would LOVE just once for someone claiming the "no ability" in regards to evaluating o-line talent to actually provide a group of players Seattle COULD have drafted, that they missed. Not one guy ( which means all those other teams also missed) but this slew of quality lineman they have missed.

You just made my point. It's unrealistic to think that we can upgrade our OL in the short term through the draft. If the goal is to capitalize on our "window", then we should not be counting on the draft to get us back to the SB this coming season.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="NorthHawk
The Defense wasn't playing up to par early, but the Offense should at least be able to get 1 first down in the last few drives to salt away a game, and that happened at least once. Maybe with a short drive instead of 3 and outs in other early games we might have had a couple of more wins. Perhaps it was play calling, but with the changes (and we will see the same number again this year) it might have been a lack of confidence early in the OL to get the job done.

I just hope with last years experience we won't make the same mistakes in the play calling area and they can get their "chemistry" up front together early.[/quote]That's

Yeah that's pretty much what I said. And it happened way more than once. There's no I in team and the Hawks were herky jerky all over the map early in the season and in the losses everyone played bad at the same time. The line with Nowak at center was dreadful and it took a couple of more weeks for Lewis to gel.

The hangover factor of such a gruesome loss in the SB cannot be understated either. Most teams would have folded the tent completely up and maybe never challenged again after something like that. Factor in a gimpy Lynch the first half of the season and Grahams devastating injury I'm damn proud of the year the guys had. They gave the ball to Russ and said throw it and blew team and NFL records away.

Last season sets them up for a deep run much as 2012 gave birth to a 2013 championship. This is such a special core of guys. Lots of teams have line issues and they don't have an electric explosive franchise QB, a filthy defense, a rapidly improving receiving corps, a promising young back(2 now) and a culture of winning. Pretty tough to see how they will go backwards from the 30th ranked line or whatever. It will be ok.

Something tells me its going to be a special year.

[c_hawkbob]

Facts:

1- We spend the least percentage of our salary cap of any team in the league on our O-line. By far.

2- We were told at the beginning of the offseason that Pete and John recognized our O-line as an area of concern and that it is a priority.

3- So far this offseason we have lost more ground than we've gained as it pertains to our O-line.

As I see it none of those facts are even questionable unless you really want to argue that J’Marcus Webb and Bradley Sowell are upgrades on the field over Russell Okung and J.R. Sweezy. Pointing out these facts and discussing them is not "complaining", it's merely being aware of the situation as it stands.

Now as discussion points these facts are very interesting and should generate a lot of discussion here, this is a Seahawks discussion board after all and isn't that what we all come here for? Can we stop trying to belittle each other over the simple recognition of them?

Opinions:

1- It is evident that spending less on our O-line as a unit is a core philosophy and it would surprise me to see that change a great deal. It goes against everything I've always believed about building an offense but it has been successful so far! That's the most important point of this entire discussion as I see it. It could be argued (and has been) that our moderate regression over the last couple years is largely attributable to our O-line woes, but holding that opinion is not pushing a panic button.

2- I saw "making it more of a priority" as a promise to increase the level of capital expenditures (both draft and salary cap) on the O-line. It hasn't happened yet but:

3- The offseason is not over!, there is still the draft and there are still potential trades out there to be made that could bear the fruit of the promise. A Joe Thomas trade is still a very real possibility (and would make me ecstatic!), but I'd be surprised to see anything that big happen before the draft.

[NorthHawk]

I agree with a lot of what you said, Bob but the one thing I believe is Pete talking about OL as a priority is to increase the competition within that group.
I get the feeling that wasn't up to their standards last year with the players they had. Bailey was a real disappointment as some of us thought he would be a starter at G and backup at T, but he ended up as not being either. That situation has to change, so now with 2 more starters gone, that becomes even more important.

I think they should start with the interior of the OL. A couple of players that can play G/C could really help or maybe 1 G/C and another T/G. Either way, quality depth is required.