Brady's Suspension Upheld

[RiverDog]

I'm a little surprised, but pleased that Goodell is showing that he has some properly inflated balls.

Here's the NFL's statement:

"In the opinion informing Brady that his appeal had been denied, Commissioner Goodell emphasized important new information disclosed by Brady and his representatives in connection with the hearing.

On or shortly before March 6, the day that Tom Brady met with independent investigator Ted Wells and his colleagues, Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed. He did so even though he was aware that the investigators had requested access to text messages and other electronic information that had been stored on that phone. ‎During the four months that the cell phone was in use, Brady had exchanged nearly 10,000 text messages, none of which can now be retrieved from that device. The destruction of the cell phone was not disclosed until June 18, almost four months after the investigators had first sought electronic information from Brady.

"Based on the Wells Report and the evidence presented at the hearing, Commissioner Goodell concluded in his decision that Brady was aware of, and took steps to support‎, the actions of other team employees to deflate game footballs below the levels called for by the NFL's Official Playing Rules. The commissioner found that Brady’s deliberate destruction of potentially relevant evidence went beyond a mere failure to cooperate in the investigation and supported a finding that he had sought to hide evidence of his own participation in the underlying scheme to alter the footballs."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutd ... 21377.html

[NorthHawk]

"I'm a little surprised, but pleased that Goodell is showing that he has some properly inflated balls."

Good one.

I'm a little surprised, too but rest assured there will be some type of legal action which I will guess will reduce or eliminate the penalty.
Maybe the destruction of evidence will be able to keep the penalty intact.

[c_hawkbob]

"I'm a little surprised, but pleased that Goodell is showing that he has some properly inflated balls."

Good one.

I'm a little surprised, too but rest assured there will be some type of legal action which I will guess will reduce or eliminate the penalty.
Maybe the destruction of evidence will be able to keep the penalty intact.

Not a chance that it'll eliminate the penalty. Reduce maybe, but the NFLPA's biggest point will be the fact deflating the footbal really isn't all that big a deal, and I agree that it's not (fine-able offense perhaps, with the loss of draft picks the Pat's are not contesting), but that does not at all address the failure to comply with a league investigation, to which we can now add destruction of crucial evidence! What kind of arrogant, entitled pr!ck would think that he can still have a leg to stand on after a stunt like that?

If the NFLPA wins a reduction at all it'll be to 2 games at best.

[kalibane]

If Brady did have the phone destroyed as they said they won't win any kind of a grievance. It also doesn't matter that the deflation of balls has little effect on the competitive balance.

At the end of the day all that matters is this:

Brady conspired with other people to modify game equipment in a way he knew to be in violation of the rules for the expressed purpose that he believed it gave him a competitive advantage. Then he proceeded to obstruct the investigation by destroying evidence he knew the investigators wanted to examine.

To engage in that kind of behavior, even if the actual effect on the outcome of the game was negligible, threatens the integrity of the game. If they don't punish him, or let him off with a fine, it sets up a pretty slippery slope and then when the next person gets caught doing something like this you have to start evaluating how each infraction effects the outcome of the games and there is no truly objective way to do that. It's a road that you really don't want to start heading down.

Brady made his bed... this is one of the very few times I agree with Roger Goodell, at least in so far as you have to come down hard on any intentional systemic cheating. He still needs to have a defined process though and he should not be hearing his own appeals.

[RiverDog]

I agree with all of the comments above. Much like the Spygate and Bountygate scandals, it had a negligible, if any, effect on the competitive balance of the game. What it did do was effect the integrity of the game.

I also agree that the key element in this case is the withholding, and now the destruction, of relevant material that was being requested. They absolutely cannot let that arrogant little prick get away with thumbing his nose at the authority of the Commissioner like he has. If I would have behaved in such a manner with my employer, not cooperated with their investigation then destroyed or altered relative information they had requested, there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be fired.

But I am not as confident as Cbob that the suspension will ultimately be upheld. If I've learned anything in my life, it is not to bank on a legal outcome. I've seen plenty of screw ball decisions handed down by courts in my lifetime.

[Feez]

this is the only thing I can remember Goodell has done that I agree with. personally I think the suspension should have been 6-8 games but I can see how they wouldn't want to tank the Pats' season entirely by taking Brady out for nearly half the season.

[NorthHawk]

NorthHawk wrote:
"I'm a little surprised, but pleased that Goodell is showing that he has some properly inflated balls."

Good one.

I'm a little surprised, too but rest assured there will be some type of legal action which I will guess will reduce or eliminate the penalty.
Maybe the destruction of evidence will be able to keep the penalty intact.



Not a chance that it'll eliminate the penalty. Reduce maybe, but the NFLPA's biggest point will be the fact deflating the footbal really isn't all that big a deal, and I agree that it's not (fine-able offense perhaps, with the loss of draft picks the Pat's are not contesting), but that does not at all address the failure to comply with a league investigation, to which we can now add destruction of crucial evidence! What kind of arrogant, entitled pr!ck would think that he can still have a leg to stand on after a stunt like that?

If the NFLPA wins a reduction at all it'll be to 2 games at best.

We'll see, but I'm beginning to think that he won't miss a game.

[jshawaii22]

Feez... yes, Brady got 4 games because he choose to 'cheat' the system and therefore erode the game, but.... they give 2 games to Rapists, 4 games for PED use and on and on. I just don't see how this should of been 4 games.

$$$$ fines, yes. Maybe 2 games, but 4, to me, seems over the top, compared the other fines in place.

js

[Anthony]

Feez... yes, Brady got 4 games because he choose to 'cheat' the system and therefore erode the game, but.... they give 2 games to Rapists, 4 games for PED use and on and on. I just don't see how this should of been 4 games.

$$$$ fines, yes. Maybe 2 games, but 4, to me, seems over the top, compared the other fines in place.

js

well lets see first not his first rodeo with cheating
2nd he not only was involved in the deflating, but then also destroyed evidence that is 2 strikes right there.

Yeah 4 games to me is the least he should have gotten.

[Futureite]

I listened to an attorney explain on ESPN radio that judges historically side with an arbitrator's decision. The point of both sides agreeing to settle through a process with defined rules is to avoid tying up the court to try the same issue. He did not believe Brady has any shot to even have his case heard in court. I hope that bears true.

[NorthHawk]

I heard another lawyer say he expects it to be overturned because Goodell was both the penalizer and the judge in the appeal.
The appearance of bias was the key in his judgement. This guy has been a labor lawyer for quite a few years.

[obiken]

Smashing his Cell was huge.

[NorthHawk]

I would guess that in the court of public opinion, he would be found guilty, and destroying evidence IS huge.
However the legal system is a different animal and there are probably all sorts of maneuvers that can be used to get Brady off of this charge.

[RiverDog]

Feez... yes, Brady got 4 games because he choose to 'cheat' the system and therefore erode the game, but.... they give 2 games to Rapists, 4 games for PED use and on and on. I just don't see how this should of been 4 games.

$$$$ fines, yes. Maybe 2 games, but 4, to me, seems over the top, compared the other fines in place.

js

IMO the 'cheating of the system' isn't nearly as important as the refusal to cooperate and the intentional destruction of evidence Brady knew was sought by the investigation.

And as long as you brought up the PED issue...suppose a player was found to have intentionally destroyed or altered his urine sample? Is that act not the equivalent of an admission of guilt? I know it is in my workplace.

[obiken]

Its destroys his legacy and makes Karl Mecklenburg s Santa Klaus (Dave Krieg) a better QB than him

[c_hawkbob]

I don't think it destroys his legacy, it just taints it. Same as with Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire. He's still one of the greatest QB's ever, but now he gets an asterisk. There will now for ever be a "but..." after everything good people think about him.

[kalibane]

Feez... yes, Brady got 4 games because he choose to 'cheat' the system and therefore erode the game, but.... they give 2 games to Rapists, 4 games for PED use and on and on. I just don't see how this should of been 4 games.

js

Comparing this to other offenses is missing the point.

1. No convicted rapist has ever been suspended for 2 games so let's not overstate things. I can only assume that you are talking about Big Ben. He was suspended for a pattern of behavior not one particular incident. While I believe he was guilty given his reputation at U of Miami, that case was never adjudicated and it wasn't a good one. You can't just suspend someone based on an accusation. It's an unreasonable standard.

2. Those are suspensions based on morality. This is a suspension based on the integrity of the game. It may not be a huge deal in terms of how it affects the game week in and week out but you simply cannot condone cheating in a professional sports league. If the league is ever perceived to be crooked then their anti trust exemption could be pulled which would effectively destroy the league.

[burrrton]

I heard another lawyer say he expects it to be overturned because Goodell was both the penalizer and the judge in the appeal.
The appearance of bias was the key in his judgement. This guy has been a labor lawyer for quite a few years.

I've heard those analyses, but if it's in the CBA, and from what I've heard it is, there's no legal argument against RG being judge and jury.

I don't really give a sht if he gets 16 games or none myself, but I think those legal opinions are ignoring the contract under which this was adjudicated.

[NorthHawk]

The thing is that they will be going to Federal Court.
From what I understand, they look beyond just the CBA (or any labor agreement).

It wouldn't surprise me if Goodell decided to become the judge in the appeal in order to give Brady the out he needs in Federal Court.
It would look like the NFL was being tough and still not penalize Brady or the Pats - a win-win situation.

[RiverDog]

The thing is that they will be going to Federal Court.
From what I understand, they look beyond just the CBA (or any labor agreement).

It wouldn't surprise me if Goodell decided to become the judge in the appeal in order to give Brady the out he needs in Federal Court.
It would look like the NFL was being tough and still not penalize Brady or the Pats - a win-win situation.

Here's a pretty good article about what things the court might look at in Brady's case:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/07/27/tom-br ... eral-court

[obiken]

He was in a trap, IF he told the whole truth, he risked a SB suspension. Normally Brady would have just sucked it up and admitted to the hand in the cookie jar. No big deal. However, because it was the SB, he lied and its been downhill ever since.

[burrrton]

Key takeaway about Brady's defense:

"...they would contend the league has violated what’s known as the “law of shop,” which refers to general requirements of fairness and consistency in the interpretation of arbitration agreements. As explained more fully in another SI.com article, Brady would assert that even though the collective bargaining agreement generally empowers Goodell to hear player appeals, the law of shop should have barred Goodell from hearing Brady’s appeal."

The CBA doesn't "generally" empower him- it empowers him fully as far as I know.

Their legal assumption, as I'm reading it, is that there's enough leeway in 'interpreting' the CBA fairly (different ways it could be reasonably read) that they could argue Goodell was barred from hearing the appeal in some cases, and I just don't see that holding any water. Why would it be any less fair for RG to hear Brady's appeal than anyone else's?

IANAL, though, and I've seen judges and lawyers accept some extremely bizarre arguments lately, so I guess we'll see.

[RiverDog]

IANAL, though, and I've seen judges and lawyers accept some extremely bizarre arguments lately, so I guess we'll see.

I'm not sure what your acronym stands for, but I agree about the head scratching arguments accepted by courts in the past, although this one might be a little more predictable in that it will not be heard before a jury. It's when common laymen get involved when you start seeing some really bizarre, unpredictable decisions, ie OJ case, spilling coffee, etc.

The other thing here is the timing of all of this. If Brady is successful of obtaining an injunction and delays the suspension until a court can hear the argument, he runs the risk of having the court turn down his appeal and the suspension issued at a much more inconvenient time, such as in December during the stretch run rather than at the beginning of the season.

[Futureite]

I heard another lawyer say he expects it to be overturned because Goodell was both the penalizer and the judge in the appeal.
The appearance of bias was the key in his judgement. This guy has been a labor lawyer for quite a few years.

Ya, who knows. This attorney's logic was pretty sound though. He stated 99% of the time a judge will not oppose an abritrator's decision, as a matter of legal precedent. But you could be right. Application of any law or court doctrine is never cut and dry. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Futureite]

Key takeaway about Brady's defense:

"...they would contend the league has violated what’s known as the “law of shop,” which refers to general requirements of fairness and consistency in the interpretation of arbitration agreements. As explained more fully in another SI.com article, Brady would assert that even though the collective bargaining agreement generally empowers Goodell to hear player appeals, the law of shop should have barred Goodell from hearing Brady’s appeal."

The CBA doesn't "generally" empower him- it empowers him fully as far as I know.

Their legal assumption, as I'm reading it, is that there's enough leeway in 'interpreting' the CBA fairly (different ways it could be reasonably read) that they could argue Goodell was barred from hearing the appeal in some cases, and I just don't see that holding any water. Why would it be any less fair for RG to hear Brady's appeal than anyone else's?

IANAL, though, and I've seen judges and lawyers accept some extremely bizarre arguments lately, so I guess we'll see.

Good analysis.

[Hawktawk]

Brady has lived a charmed life. Starting with Billacheat elevating him past Bledsoe after an injury(worked out but very bad protocol with a Pro Bowl QB who had played in a Super Bowl being on the wrong end of the decision.) The tuck nuff said. Then Bledsoe had to bail him out vs Pittsburgh. Then winning 3 Super bowls by a total of 9 points from Vinnateris leg while enjoying surreptitious filming of defenses signals to know what was coming on every play. (I am amazed how many fans think that was no big deal or competitive advantage, flat balls too on a rainy cold day). Once the filming was discovered the offense became much less prolific, strarting with putting up a clunker vs the Giants in the Superbowl,twice .

Brady has feasted off a weak division much of his career. He has the best coach in the league history albeit one of the sleaziest human beings imaginable. He has always enjoyed a multitude of max protect schemes and generally has had excellent protection in the center of the pocket which is really the only place he is comfortable and effective.And this February he had the extreme good fortune of facing a Seahawks defense that was an absolute shell of itself to start the game and even less so after halftime. If the LOB was healthy it would have been a replay of 48.

But now the lucky streak has run out. Reading the appeal rebuttal report issued by the league it is clear even to the polyannas who thought he was innocent that he is guilty. Kraft knows it, all bloviating aside. Billacheat knows. The ball boys were not allowed to speak to Goodell under oath at the appeal. I have a hard time believing that a court of law is going to overturn this. Brady has permanently put a big asterisk by his bust in Canton. Winner but a cheater AND a liar.

Amazing the arrogance.

[RiverDog]

Brady has lived a charmed life. Starting with Billacheat elevating him past Bledsoe after an injury(worked out but very bad protocol with a Pro Bowl QB who had played in a Super Bowl being on the wrong end of the decision.) The tuck nuff said. Then Bledsoe had to bail him out vs Pittsburgh. Then winning 3 Super bowls by a total of 9 points from Vinnateris leg while enjoying surreptitious filming of defenses signals to know what was coming on every play. (I am amazed how many fans think that was no big deal or competitive advantage, flat balls too on a rainy cold day). Once the filming was discovered the offense became much less prolific, strarting with putting up a clunker vs the Giants in the Superbowl,twice .

Brady has feasted off a weak division much of his career. He has the best coach in the league history albeit one of the sleaziest human beings imaginable. He has always enjoyed a multitude of max protect schemes and generally has had excellent protection in the center of the pocket which is really the only place he is comfortable and effective.And this February he had the extreme good fortune of facing a Seahawks defense that was an absolute shell of itself to start the game and even less so after halftime. If the LOB was healthy it would have been a replay of 48.

But now the lucky streak has run out. Reading the appeal rebuttal report issued by the league it is clear even to the polyannas who thought he was innocent that he is guilty. Kraft knows it, all bloviating aside. Billacheat knows. The ball boys were not allowed to speak to Goodell under oath at the appeal. I have a hard time believing that a court of law is going to overturn this. Brady has permanently put a big asterisk by his bust in Canton. Winner but a cheater AND a liar.

Amazing the arrogance.

Brady is still a great quarterback, will go down in history as one of the top 2 or 3 of his era. You don't win 4 SB's with mirrors. This scandal doesn't change that fact in the least, and it's not going to keep him out of the HOF. One poster compared his situation to Barry Bonds. I tend to think it's closer to Pete Rose, although on a much smaller in scale, in that it had a negligible effect on the outcome of the games he participated in rather it had more to do with the integrity of the game.

But you got one thing right: He is a little arrogant prick.

[Hawktawk]

Brady is still a great quarterback, will go down in history as one of the top 2 or 3 of his era. You don't win 4 SB's with mirrors. This scandal doesn't change that fact in the least, and it's not going to keep him out of the HOF. One poster compared his situation to Barry Bonds. I tend to think it's closer to Pete Rose, although on a much smaller in scale, in that it had a negligible effect on the outcome of the games he participated in rather it had more to do with the integrity of the game.

But you got one thing right: He is a little arrogant prick.[/quote]

I got ONE thing right? Damned by faint praise. I think I got it mostly right.What did I get wrong?
I said his bust would be in Canton although this could cost him on the first ballot. To say there wont be an asterisk in many peoples minds is delusional.

This is bad,How bad it is is really sinking in. it isn't a kid with a hand in the cookie jar. This is a man who has been made fabulously wealthy by the sport who has not only cheated but lied publicly, under oath, destroyed evidence on the day of a league interview,and tried to flat out embarrass the commissioner and make a fool out of him. Its as plain as day Brady did this. I am amazed anyone other than the Pats organization support him.A lot of people in the business are beginning to turn on him after reserving judgement.

I would recommend anyone who wants to see the case as it was laid out should read the 20 page appeal denial report and decide for yourself if its a big deal.

[kalibane]

Brady will go into Canton on the first ballot no question. The only place this is going to cost him is in the hypothetical debate about the best QB of all time. Between losing a couple of Super Bowls and this people will use it to say that Montana was better.

That's where it starts and ends.

[RiverDog]

I got ONE thing right? Damned by faint praise. I think I got it mostly right.What did I get wrong?
I said his bust would be in Canton although this could cost him on the first ballot. To say there wont be an asterisk in many peoples minds is delusional.

For starters, the first ballot HOF. He'll get in on the first ballot. No question.

Secondly, the "asterisk" will be nothing more than a paragraph in the fine print that details his career, just like the fine print attached to HOF'er Paul Hornung. In 1963, Hornung was suspended for a full season, 4 times the length of suspension Brady is facing. Like Hornung, it will be a part of the story but it won't be a qualifier on any of his accomplishments.

I also think you went a little overboard in minimizing Brady's accomplishments. He's been an extraordinary quarterback, no if's, and's, or but's.

[c_hawkbob]

"Nothing more than a paragraph in the fine print that details his career" is all an asterisk ever is, and Hornrung's suspension was for Gambling, not for trying to gain and illegal competitive advantage on the field, so that's not a good comparison. A better comparison would be any of the many 4 game PED suspensions the NFL has handed out.

[Hawktawk]

There is no debate Brady is one of the all time greats. It is debatable that he may be the absolute best. 6 SB's 4 wins, numerous NFL records, what?10-11 division titles?Hes been very lucky but very very good as well.
Thats what makes this all so bizarre.


What if the equipment guys roll over? And dont think there wouldn't be quite a few news outlets that would pay handsomely for that story.Remember the NFLPA would not allow them to attend Brady's appeal even though Goodell had requested them to be there. Lets say Brady has been doing it for years, which I personally suspect may be the case. Many of the text messages involving needles and the "deflator" were sent weeks and even months before the AFC title game. At a minimum Bradys stature among the all time greats will be diminished over this and it will not be forgotten.

[RiverDog]

What if the equipment guys roll over? And dont think there wouldn't be quite a few news outlets that would pay handsomely for that story.Remember the NFLPA would not allow them to attend Brady's appeal even though Goodell had requested them to be there. Lets say Brady has been doing it for years, which I personally suspect may be the case. Many of the text messages involving needles and the "deflator" were sent weeks and even months before the AFC title game. At a minimum Bradys stature among the all time greats will be diminished over this and it will not be forgotten.

If more information comes to surface, such as if Brady's been paying the equipment manager to deflate footballs for years, then that could tarnish his legacy further, it could have an impact on his HOF candidacy.

And Cbob, I am not comparing the reason for Hornung's suspension vs that of Brady's. I am comparing how they will be referred to in the HOF or remembered by historians. Brady's footnote won't be any more prominent than Hornung's.

[NorthHawk]

Speaking of the Equipment Manager and his assistant, they are still suspended by the Patriots.
If they did nothing wrong, why were they ever suspended in the first place and why are they still suspended?

[c_hawkbob]

, I am not comparing the reason for Hornung's suspension vs that of Brady's. I am comparing how they will be referred to in the HOF or remembered by historians. Brady's footnote won't be any more prominent than Hornung's.

I don't think it will be as prominent as Hornrung's, but then I evidently think Hornrung's is more prominent than you do. Great guy, and a funny interview, but definitely a tarnished legacy IMO.

[Hawktawk]

Speaking of the Equipment Manager and his assistant, they are still suspended by the Patriots.
If they did nothing wrong, why were they ever suspended in the first place and why are they still suspended?

DING DING DING!!!!!WE HAVE A WINNER. Exactly....Why were they suspended? And how can they say it was a sting operation if there was nothing to sting? They have told so many lies they cant keep them straight anymore. They really need to STFU and take their medicine before they look even more ridiculous. Especially pretty boy.
One of the managers texted the other "Im not going to ESPN.......yet" Those two dudes are the key to the truth and it will come out someday.

[kalibane]

Well Brady's attempt to fight this just took another blow. The players always file their suits in Minnesota Court because it's been so friendly in terms of siding with players in the past, but the Minnesota Judge ordered that the case be transferred to a New York Court, stating that she sees not reason for the action to proceed in Minnesota.

It's Schadenfreude which isn't a good look but the sheer entitled attitude of Brady surrounding this issue, when it's obvious he was involved in this, really makes watching him get a comeuppance is a little satisfying. (And actually has nothing to do with the Super Bowl).

When are people going to learn... it's never the crime, it's the cover up.

[RiverDog]

Well Brady's attempt to fight this just took another blow. The players always file their suits in Minnesota Court because it's been so friendly in terms of siding with players in the past, but the Minnesota Judge ordered that the case be transferred to a New York Court, stating that she sees not reason for the action to proceed in Minnesota.

It's Schadenfreude which isn't a good look but the sheer entitled attitude of Brady surrounding this issue, when it's obvious he was involved in this, really makes watching him get a comeuppance is a little satisfying. (And actually has nothing to do with the Super Bowl).

When are people going to learn... it's never the crime, it's the cover up.

Nice scoop, Kal. You're right, that Minny court is very friendly to the NFLPA.

I agree that watching Brady being spit roasted is extremely satisfying, but unlike you, I feel that it takes just a tiny bit of sting out of SB 49. I hope this drama plays out all season long, with the end result of Brady being suspended for the last 4 regular season games with the Pats going into December in a 3 way tie for first place in their division.

In my view, this isn't even about the cover up as much as it is about his arrogance. The guy's a smug little prick thinking he can get away with destroying evidence his employer is requesting. And that's coming from a guy that used to be a semi fan of his.

[RiverDog]

I don't think it will be as prominent as Hornrung's, but then I evidently think Hornrung's is more prominent than you do. Great guy, and a funny interview, but definitely a tarnished legacy IMO.

10-4 regarding Hornung. There's a few old sports personalities that are/were can't miss interviews, including Mickey Mantle, Art Donovan, and Hornung. His suspension mate Alex Karras wasn't bad, either.

[obiken]

My friend who is a Dolphins fan, sent me a photo of Czonka smashing into the end zone, with the caption you give the ball to Lynch. So sorry nothing takes the sting out of it. Brady got caught in the little lie. It will probably overturned. Goodell should just set up a Disciplinary Czar, and then review his decisions. He started our really good, now he is an idiot.