More Wilson Contract stuff

[burrrton]

I'm not saying they should get the same respect as their parents- I'm saying they should get the same respect as any other owner, and then, that an owner, as someone with a comparatively HUGE stake in the team, deserves more deference on where the money goes than the players.

And again, just to make sure I'm clear, this doesn't mean I think guaranteed money should be off the table, but rather that it shouldn't be considered some kind of birthright of the players.

Something I meant to say earlier:

Not that I care about this particular tangent the discussion has taken, but could not "someone earned it" be said of every dime in existence?

Short of the royal family and/or thieves and such? Virtually every dime- yes.

That's why 99% of the 'hate on the rich' attitudes we see so much of in this country are so puerile.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think anyone on this forum "Hates the rich", rather some of us don't think the owners are taking much of a risk in owning an NFL franchise.
There's a reason some of them will invest the majority of their fortune in one business (and I'm not talking about building a business but buying an existing business) and that there is a lineup of others willing to do the same where they would never do that in the stock or bond market.

It's equally puerile to consider the owners as business gods who are out front risking their fortunes on NFL teams when history shows this enterprise has very little risk.

[burrrton]

North, nobody is calling them "business Gods" for pete's sake- stop with the straw-manning and just read what I said.

Although teams can and do lose money, and there's no *guarantee* teams appreciate in value, I'm also not saying they're taking big risks with their money in owning a team (they'd be stupid to sink hundreds of millions in a team if it was a 50/50 proposition). I'm merely pointing out that kind of money isn't come by easily, so arguing there's some kind of "easy come easy go" situation with regard to it is misguided.

[NorthHawk]

North, nobody is calling them "business Gods" for pete's sake- stop with the straw-manning and just read what I said.

Although teams can and do lose money, and there's no *guarantee* teams appreciate in value, I'm also not saying they're taking big risks with their money in owning a team (they'd be stupid to sink hundreds of millions in a team if it was a 50/50 proposition). I'm merely pointing out that kind of money isn't come by easily, so arguing there's some kind of "easy come easy go" situation with regard to it is misguided.

And you can stop the straw manning of hating the rich.
The fact is the NFL has weathered the economic downturns as well or better than many other businesses.

You started out by stating the owners are taking big risks and the players are risking nothing.
That's how we got to this point.

[burrrton]

And you can stop the straw manning of hating the rich.

That was just a side note- stop parroting.

The fact is the NFL has weathered the economic downturns as well or better than many other businesses.

True. So?

You started out by stating the owners are taking big risks and the players are risking nothing.
That's how we got to this point.

Fair enough. I've strived to clarify that in the posts since.

[Hawktown]

The fact is the NFL has weathered the economic downturns as well or better than many other businesses.

True. So?


This is called a monopoly and is illegal but they paid the right price to get their exemption. This is how most BIG business works and how people like myself feel they do not deserve their fortunes as some may suggest. I am sure a lot of them made the money themselves but they had to rip someone off to make it that fast.

[RiverDog]

True. So?


This is called a monopoly and is illegal but they paid the right price to get their exemption. This is how most BIG business works and how people like myself feel they do not deserve their fortunes as some may suggest. I am sure a lot of them made the money themselves but they had to rip someone off to make it that fast.

I agree that the NFL is about as close to a monopoly as any other American business, and at some point, I hope that someone holds their feet to the fire with the way they keep jacking up ticket prices while they're paying their players obscene amounts of money. They can charge whatever they want for tickets and people will keep buying them. They have very little real competition.

But I don't agree with your line about owners not "deserving" their fortunes or that they had to rip someone off in order to make money. Whether or not they earned their money by building a company from scratch like Paul Allen did with Bill Gates or inherited their team/fortune from their parents like Mike Brown did makes little difference to me. Life's not fair. If we're going to live in a democratic, capitalistic society vs. a controlled economy and a totalitarian regime, inequities like those being discussed are going to happen. I'm not going to engage in class warfare simply because I'm jealous of how someone came about their money.

[burrrton]

But I don't agree with your line about owners not "deserving" their fortunes or that they had to rip someone off in order to make money.

What do you want to bet he feels *he* earned and deserves *his* money, but not those successful people?

As I said: puerile.

[Hawktown]

What do you want to bet he feels *he* earned and deserves *his* money, but not those successful people?

As I said: puerile.

Actually, I did not say all of the successful (level of success is a HUGE factor here) people didn't deserve what they have, I did say that some of them (and i would bet the majority of the worlds most wealthy) have not made an honest fortune. Although in the end I STRONGLY believe that if these grossly successful people would have asked FAR less for their product, they would still have made a HUGE fortune and more people would be more capable of investing some of there money in that grossly successful persons product and not driving the cost of EVERYTHING around them up. It is clearly a win win but no they want billions right now. This is why i live a different life and do not buy into any of these large corporations anymore than a computer and TV and i only have the TV for the kid/football for me and a computer for my business. I can take care of myself otherwise.

Don't get me started on all the disposable products that flood the stores these days. If that is not RIPPING SOMEONE OFF, you don't understand the term.

[HumanCockroach]

Be careful when you start painting 31 people with the same brush stroke

Says the man painting all past and current players with a "risk nothing" brush, by the way, according to you, that former player " risked nothing" as well. Must be cool being someone that sees " risk" only in monetary terms, makes it super easy at night to sleep when health and well being of others means absolutely nothing. Preach on.

[Anthony]

Are we really trying to say risking ones wealth is the same as risking ones health. Really?

[burrrton]

Are we really trying to say risking ones wealth is the same as risking ones health. Really?

Jeezus. You guys wear me out.

No. However, the "risk" to a player's health is:

1. Undertaken voluntarily
2. Minuscule compared to most other 'dangerous' professions
3. Is already compensated so disproportionately that it's insulting to even have to discuss it

There's a reason people knock themselves out trying to get INTO the NFL, not out of it. They're not slaves, ffs.

[burrrton]

Must be cool being someone that sees " risk" only in monetary terms

It *is* cool when you're trying to equate amassing a billion dollars to working out regularly and showing up for practice.

"But burrrton, they had to get up early for workouts AND go to class to get themselves drafted!"

Yeah, no sht, Sherlock- a lot of us did all that, and it doesn't enter the same realm of effort required to end up with a few hundred million in the bank.

[Anthony]

Jeezus. You guys wear me out.

No. However, the "risk" to a player's health is:

1. Undertaken voluntarily
2. Minuscule compared to most other 'dangerous' professions
3. Is already compensated so disproportionately that it's insulting to even have to discuss it

There's a reason people knock themselves out trying to get INTO the NFL, not out of it. They're not slaves, ffs.

First we are not comparing it to other risky professions we are comparing it to the risk a millionaire takes in buying an NFL team which has always sold for more than it was bought for. Also as to miniscule I am sure all those players how just won their law suite would not agree with you. AS to compensated disproportionally, you mean compared to say the billionaire owners making billions really? FYI Ahh I think SF would disagree with you about people trying to get out. You should have left it at NO.

[burrrton]

[edited- no, I think I'll go some more]

First we are not comparing it to other risky professions we are comparing it to the risk a millionaire takes in buying an NFL team which has always sold for more than it was bought for.

Wrong. Your argument is that players "deserve" guaranteed money because they "risk their lives", so it's valid to point out that they do not do so any more than many, many other professions.

The comparison to the owners comes about because you guys insist on this ridiculous 'moral' comparison about who has more blood, sweat, and tears sunk into their respective positions with the team.

Also as to miniscule I am sure all those players how just won their law suite would not agree with you.

Maybe. And you know who would tell them to fck themselves? All the miners who died in a mine collapse or of black lung disease. Well, if they were still alive.

AS to compensated disproportionally, you mean compared to say the billionaire owners making billions really?

No, not to them.

[Anthony]

It *is* cool when you're trying to equate amassing a billion dollars to working out regularly and showing up for practice.

"But burrrton, they had to get up early for workouts AND go to class to get themselves drafted!"

Yeah, no sht, Sherlock- a lot of us did all that, and it doesn't enter the same realm of effort required to end up with a few hundred million in the bank.

No but Burton 96% of all deceased NFL players were found to have serious head trauma directly related to football.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... oncussions

http://www.newsmax.com/health/Health-Ne ... id/590978/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/sport ... .html?_r=0

I can go on enough said.

Again it may be same effort but not the same risk, one is a risk of wealth the other health and as you said NO they are not the same. So stop arguing like they are.

[burrrton]

So stop arguing like they are.

You first, champ.

Tell me- is there any player negotiating an NFL contract who doesn't realize the risks he's assuming playing in the NFL?

Should I get my developer salary guaranteed for 5 years because 3/4 of us have signs of carpal tunnel?

You guys wear me out.

[burrrton]

Reading back, there's nothing more I can say about this I haven't said 3 times already. If you guys want to view the players as perpetually victimized, go ahead.

The arguments stand on their own.

[HumanCockroach]

I NEVER once claimed players did not know the risks, nor have I come forward with demands about guaranteed money, I have not once claimed pity for said players, nor claimed anything other than the silliness of fans stating a player wanting to get as much as possible, while he can, are "greedy", while pretending like owners dumping players are just being smart.

My issue is the incredible stupidity in a statement about players risking nothing, which is the same as saying that those miners, or roofers or all these *other* higher risk professions, pretending that a player risks nothing is the height of willful ignorance.

[RiverDog]

What do you want to bet he feels *he* earned and deserves *his* money, but not those successful people?

As I said: puerile.

That wasn't my point. I don't give a rip how smug Mike Brown feels he is. Whether he attained his status through blood, sweat, and tears or by virtue of having been born with a golden spoon in his mouth, it makes no difference to me. I feel that my parents, as limited their means were compared to someone like Mike Brown, gave me the opportunity to maximize my potential, but I chose a different course, and I have no regrets.

If Mike Brown showed himself to be a good guy, I'd buy him a beer, with the full realization that he could buy all the breweries in the country had he wanted to.

[NorthHawk]

I can't wait for the season to start.

[Anthony]

You first, champ.

Tell me- is there any player negotiating an NFL contract who doesn't realize the risks he's assuming playing in the NFL?

Should I get my developer salary guaranteed for 5 years because 3/4 of us have signs of carpal tunnel?

You guys wear me out.

Love the way you take one statement and forget all the context around it so you can twist it to make your point.

Again you agreed that risking wealth is not like risking health so you basically agreed your whole premise is wrong.

[burrrton]

Again you agreed that risking wealth is not like risking health so you basically agreed your whole premise is wrong.

Yeah, Anthony- that's what I did. Thanks.

[burrrton]

If Mike Brown showed himself to be a good guy, I'd buy him a beer, with the full realization that he could buy all the breweries in the country had he wanted to.

I wasn't talking about Mike Brown- I was talking about the goofy conspiracy theorist you were replying to who thinks all successful people did it The Wrong Way™, but that all *his* money is earned The Right Way™.

A textbook example of the adolescent attitude I referred to.

[RiverDog]

I wasn't talking about Mike Brown- I was talking about the goofy conspiracy theorist you were replying to who thinks all successful people did it The Wrong Way™, but that all *his* money is earned The Right Way™.

A textbook example of the adolescent attitude I referred to.

LOL! Fair enough.

I learned a long time ago not to worry so much about the unfairness of which life deals our hand, and that includes inherited wealth. This adolescent attitude you refer to is driven by nothing more than pure jealousy.

[Hawktown]

[quote="RiverDog"][quote="burrrton"]I wasn't talking about Mike Brown- I was talking about the goofy conspiracy theorist you were replying to who thinks all successful people did it The Wrong Way™, but that all *his* money is earned The Right Way™.

A textbook example of the adolescent attitude I referred to.

LOL! Fair enough.

I learned a long time ago not to worry so much about the unfairness of which life deals our hand, and that includes inherited wealth. This adolescent attitude you refer to is driven by nothing more than pure jealousy.

Clearly burrton YOU CANNOT READ since you CLEARLY twist multiple peoples words into your on BS! Try again buddy!

RD, my viewpoint has nothing to do with jealousy, just the fact that A LOT of uber wealthy have not made their fortune honestly. In fact , I purposefully make less money so i do not have to pay into this crooked country. I worked my ass off for a long time and then realized how full of sh*t and greedy a lot of people are and decided to tame it down financially so that these crooked a holes can't take from me anymore then I am already forced to, I refuse to pay into this system as it stands. I grow most of all my own ORGANIC food, meat and veggies. It costs me far less to do it myself and I know where it has been. See below how pissed I am that the uber rich are going to infiltrate my food supply and leave my family without choice. This is serious sh*t.

When you lie about things like a patent is yours when it is not and then you sue the actual holder because you have more money to pay out to lie and make it appear you hold a patent you do not, that is not honesty or a deserved fortune. This is actually criminal but you can get away with anything with the right amount of money, I call BS. When you promote and make money off of things like GMO's and try to shove that sh*t down peoples throat without their knowledge or choice, you did not make that money honestly, you made it at the expense of peoples health and well being all for profit. Choice is the main deal breaker here for me on the GMO saga, not to mention the pesticide side of the story. GMO's will cross pollinate every crop eventually and then we will all be stuck with the BS FOREVER. Other Large countries have banned GMO's from even entering the country but they are in just about every food on the store shelves. When you pay politicians to get bills through, this is not honesty, this is complete deception of the country. I could go on and on for days about the ILLEGAL ways thes uber rich have made money, it is all documented and still allowed to happen by the same government that is supposed to protect the people from such BS.

Your founding fathers have tried to tell us all but it has been so long since then that most don't remember.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... Bj4KrRw.99

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... Bj4KrRw.99

[RiverDog]

RD, my viewpoint has nothing to do with jealousy, just the fact that A LOT of uber wealthy have not made their fortune honestly. In fact , I purposefully make less money so i do not have to pay into this crooked country. I worked my ass off for a long time and then realized how full of sh*t and greedy a lot of people are and decided to tame it down financially so that these crooked a holes can't take from me anymore then I am already forced to, I refuse to pay into this system as it stands. I grow most of all my own ORGANIC food, meat and veggies. It costs me far less to do it myself and I know where it has been. See below how pissed I am that the uber rich are going to infiltrate my food supply and leave my family without choice. This is serious sh*t.

When you lie about things like a patent is yours when it is not and then you sue the actual holder because you have more money to pay out to lie and make it appear you hold a patent you do not, that is not honesty or a deserved fortune. This is actually criminal but you can get away with anything with the right amount of money, I call BS. When you promote and make money off of things like GMO's and try to shove that sh*t down peoples throat without their knowledge or choice, you did not make that money honestly, you made it at the expense of peoples health and well being all for profit. Choice is the main deal breaker here for me on the GMO saga, not to mention the pesticide side of the story. GMO's will cross pollinate every crop eventually and then we will all be stuck with the BS FOREVER. Other Large countries have banned GMO's from even entering the country but they are in just about every food on the store shelves. When you pay politicians to get bills through, this is not honesty, this is complete deception of the country. I could go on and on for days about the ILLEGAL ways thes uber rich have made money, it is all documented and still allowed to happen by the same government that is supposed to protect the people from such BS.

Your founding fathers have tried to tell us all but it has been so long since then that most don't remember.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... Bj4KrRw.99

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Thomas Jefferson

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... Bj4KrRw.99

Holy cow, Hawktown! I hope you're not taking all of this too seriously. My unsolicited advice is not to worry so much about the things you can't change.

There are, indeed, a lot of wealthy people that made their fortunes illegally or immorally, as there are in every other class of citizens. The wealthy do not have a corner on honesty and integrity anymore than the poor do not have a corner on crime. To rid our country of every single illegal or unethical act would require that we live in a police state and all be constantly monitored by Big Brother, so a certain amount of crime and corruption is part of the price we have to pay in order to live in a free society. That's how I have rationalized it and have come to make peace with it.

This topic is probably better suited for the OT forum.

[Hawktown]

Holy cow, Hawktown! I hope you're not taking all of this too seriously. My unsolicited advice is not to worry so much about the things you can't change.

There are, indeed, a lot of wealthy people that made their fortunes illegally or immorally, as there are in every other class of citizens. The wealthy do not have a corner on honesty and integrity anymore than the poor do not have a corner on crime. To rid our country of every single illegal or unethical act would require that we live in a police state and all be constantly monitored by Big Brother, so a certain amount of crime and corruption is part of the price we have to pay in order to live in a free society. That's how I have rationalized it and have come to make peace with it.

This topic is probably better suited for the OT forum.[/quote]

RD, I do take this stuff very seriously and by no means limited to what i posted before. Things can change to be better without a police state but does anyone want to see such a change and the options to go about it? I doubt very many are willing to put that type of time in to rebuilding America to suit everyone MORE equally. I just avoid as much of it as possible and deal with the rest as I can. Really it's just a thing i have that i like to complain about and in some instances think people should be informed.

With that said, you are right, this is off topic, and I won't go on about it anymore. Stay cool man!

[Anthony]

Hmm listen at about the 27minute mark more on the guarantees being the issue, of course who knows if it is true

http://mynorthwest.com/category/pod_pla ... 07&n=Brock and Salk

[NorthHawk]

So if the unthinkable happens and we are looking for another QB, how does this guy sound?
I'll post the name in a followup.

Particulars: 6-2, 205, sophomore
The skinny: Won the quarterback battle as a redshirt freshman, then turned in a big season, with 4,084 yards of total offense. Expect him to be more of a running threat this fall, but his passing ability will remain the strong suit of his game. He threw for 3,793 yards and 28 TDs last season, and should improve on both numbers.

[Anthony]

So if the unthinkable happens and we are looking for another QB, how does this guy sound?
I'll post the name in a followup.

Particulars: 6-2, 205, sophomore
The skinny: Won the quarterback battle as a redshirt freshman, then turned in a big season, with 4,084 yards of total offense. Expect him to be more of a running threat this fall, but his passing ability will remain the strong suit of his game. He threw for 3,793 yards and 28 TDs last season, and should improve on both numbers.

Anu Solomon 58% complt yeah not sure that works, if that is his complt % in college it is not going to be great in the NFL at least not for a few years. However if that is the best choice and we have no other I guess. That said worst case we are 2 years form worrying about it.

[NorthHawk]

He's got at least 1 more year to mature and I don't know much about his work habits, but he sounds like he at least has the athleticism and apparently the accuracy Pete demands.
We would have a step back at any rate no matter who we got.