More Wilson Contract stuff

[Anthony]

I have no problem if the players can negotiate guaranteed money, and in fact I think it would be worth guaranteeing whatever it takes to retain RW, but let's be clear- the players *do* "have something".

It's one of the most lucrative jobs on the planet. Just because they can't stay at peak earnings until Medicare eligible, or because they can be fired like everyone else on earth, doesn't mean they're being taken advantage of.

Also, it's worth remembering that guaranteed money hurts the team, and since it's the team I root for, I'd rather not see guaranteed money (all other things being equal) unless that's what it takes to retain a player who's worth the risk (and again, I think Wilson is).

You need to look at the whole picture. The owners make billions, and are pretty much with TB contracts etc guaranteed billions as long as they can field a team. The playres are not guaranteed anything unless they can stay healthy and play.. Even you should see the difference and why I can see having some guarantees in football contracts.

[Futureite]

Tagged players still get their money in game checks, one game at a time, just like everybody else.

This whole "escrow" element somebody decided to make part of the discussion is just how it's always been done. All fully guaranteed money is put into escrow upon contract signing (less signing bonus' obviously) and then payed out in game checks. It's not like they're reinventing the wheel, the idiots writing and rewriting this particularly story just want to make it seem so as that has become part of the narrative for this one.

All owners in all major sports have the money put away for contracts and operating expenses ahead of time anyway, as a means of drawing interest on that money until the actual point of expenditure if for no other reason.

Good analysis. Plus, tax considerations aside, it's general business practice to defer payment of expenses as long as possible. Hell, even most average Joe's like you and I do that.

[burrrton]

Even you should see the difference and why I can see having some guarantees in football contracts.

I'm not saying I "can't see having them"- I'm saying any moral argument for them is nonsense, and they're not good for our team except to the extent they lure and/or keep good players.

The owners do indeed make a lot of money, but for chrissakes- do you have any idea what it takes to accumulate the capital to buy a team? That kind of effort and/or commitment and/or shrewdness dwarfs anything any player puts forward.

The players aren't owed anything beyond what they earn because *they haven't risked anything*.

The NFL is, and should be considered, nothing more than an opportunity for an exclusive group of people to make more money in a few years than the rest of society will see in its life.

They're not owed anything beyond what they can negotiate within that outrageously lucrative framework.

Quit crying for players not getting their money guaranteed- nobody else sees that, and many others give a lot more to their craft.

[Anthony]

An interesting Article

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the ... ar-AAclkse

[mykc14]

An interesting Article

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the ... ar-AAclkse

Good article. The guy seems to have a good grasp about what the Hawks are about.

[Anthony]

Good article. The guy seems to have a good grasp about what the Hawks are about.

I agree and it also shows just how important Wilson is to the Hawks, and that without mentioning the Wr corps and its.....limitations compared to those of other top QBs. However they do mention how bad the oline is at pass blocking.

[HumanCockroach]

The players aren't owed anything beyond what they earn because *they haven't risked anything

ROTFLMAO.

Don't tell the guys with necks, or life debilitating injuries

[Anthony]

ROTFLMAO.

Don't tell the guys with necks, or life debilitating injuries

No kidding have not risk anything, no only there lives.

[NorthHawk]

Not only that, but owning an NFL team has shown over the years to be one of the safest investments for a person or family with the means to afford it.
It's probably the only business (or one of the few) that increases in value even if the product is poor or it doesn't make much money.

[burrrton]

ROTFLMAO.

Don't tell the guys with necks, or life debilitating injuries

So tell them to go mine for a living, or drive a semi, or any other of the FAR more statistically risky professions that don't *begin* to reward employees so disproportionately, and see what the players tell you. ROFFFLECOPTERS indeed.

No kidding have not risk anything, no only there lives.

LOL. You've got to be shtting me. Hyperbole much?

"Welcome to Monday Night Football everyone! Now let's look on as these 52 players risk their lives for your entertainment..."

Not only that, but owning an NFL team has shown over the years to be one of the safest investments for a person or family with the means to afford it.
It's probably the only business (or one of the few) that increases in value even if the product is poor or it doesn't make much money.

So why haven't you invested in one yet? Think it might be kinda tough to put that kind of scratch together?

[c_hawkbob]

I think it's fairly comical watching the fans freak out about this contract. This forum runs the gamut from extreme to extreme; we've got Savvy gone full on troll and Anthony taking the bait sink line and hooker, even on the second line bearing identical bait to the first ... Obi jumping off the Wilson Bandwagon and half the folks in here just plain nervous as hell though saying very little about it.

First: it's not as though negotiations were taking an inordinate amount of time or have actually come to the impasse the press would have us believe. The time frame is still current and on schedule. At least as I see it; When it didn't happen first thing in Feb I figured the signing would come before Training camp and I still do.

On the other hand however I also I think it's entirely possible that the Schneider and Carroll want these negotiations to last into next offseason. There is a considerable advantage to playing with a Franchise QB at back up prices and they may well want to continue that model for one more season. I see it as risky because it exposes Russ to the temptation of going with a team willing to give up two firsts and an unmatchable contract to get him but it would explain both the team and Russ emphasizing that there is no deadline for the contract to be signed (even though Russ has said that he won't negotiate into the season: that once it's time for football he doesn't want the distraction) ... but if all parties have discussed this at length and are at an understanding of it being the team's position I could see it being the case. The team may well have told Russ that they want him this year at $1.5 and are then willing to pay whatever more it would take (and make no mistake, it would take much more) to sign him next year and assured him that he would be rewarded handsomely for the wait.

I wouldn't like it, it would be Schneider taking a chance of 'Hutching it' and becoming another Ruskell (who everybody loved at first too), but I could see it being the case. It would fill in a lot of blanks.

Either way it's way to early for this forum to be falling apart over it. Russ is our QB this year and I believe him when he says he'll be the same QB whether it's for 1.5 or 25 million dollars.

[NorthHawk]

Can't come up with the scratch?

Naw I can't afford it, but neither could Mark Davis if it wasn't for Al, or Woody Johnson without ole gramps.
You see, some of these guys were just born with a silver spoon.

[burrrton]

Can't come up with the scratch?

Naw I can't afford it, but neither could Mark Davis if it wasn't for Al, or Woody Johnson without ole gramps.
You see, some of these guys were just born with a silver spoon.

And most weren't. And those who were got that silver spoon from someone who worked their ass off for it.

You see, there's no such thing as a fcking money tree that only the elite few have access to. Someone earns it, and if they're fortunate enough to end up with enough that it can benefit their children, or grandchildren, so much the better.

[c_hawkbob]

Who said anything about "coming up with the scratch"?

It ain't a matter of coming up with the scratch, it's a matter of operating under the salary cap. Those "considerable advantage to playing with a Franchise QB at back up prices" have nothing to do with amount of total expenditure, that's a predetermined amount for an NFL roster, it's about what you can do with the cap space you don't have to spend on a Franchise QB.

*edit: never mind, I see that comment wasn't directed my way ... but I'm gonna leave my response anyway cause it's relevant.

[burrrton]

I think Bob may have a solid point here.

The "Franchise QB at Rookie Price" advantage is considerable. It's not something I considered before, but now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if the FO is insisting on keeping that advantage intact for another year...

It's not like it they're getting off cheap if they re-sign now, even considering what the cap and demands might be next year.

[NorthHawk]

True, or Wilson might be gambling that he stays healthy and will get a bigger contract next year.
We really don't know what's going on in each of the camps.

Edit.
I would think the FO wants to make a deal because they otherwise would have moved on to signing Wagner.

[burrrton]

I would think the FO wants to make a deal because they otherwise would have moved on to signing Wagner.

Probably right. To be clear, I didn't mean I didn't think they were really trying to get him signed, but more that they might be figuring that advantage into their offer somehow (and be more insistent on it than I had considered).

It's late now and I've been on the river all day in 107F heat. Will ponder more tomorrow (if anyone gives a sht)...

[savvyman]

I think it's fairly comical watching the fans freak out about this contract. This forum runs the gamut from extreme to extreme; we've got Savvy gone full on troll and Anthony taking the bait sink line and hooker, even on the second line bearing identical bait to the first ... Obi jumping off the Wilson Bandwagon and half the folks in here just plain nervous as hell though saying very little about it.

First: it's not as though negotiations were taking an inordinate amount of time or have actually come to the impasse the press would have us believe. The time frame is still current and on schedule. At least as I see it; When it didn't happen first thing in Feb I figured the signing would come before Training camp and I still do.

On the other hand however I also I think it's entirely possible that the Schneider and Carroll want these negotiations to last into next offseason. There is a considerable advantage to playing with a Franchise QB at back up prices and they may well want to continue that model for one more season. I see it as risky because it exposes Russ to the temptation of going with a team willing to give up two firsts and an unmatchable contract to get him but it would explain both the team and Russ emphasizing that there is no deadline for the contract to be signed (even though Russ has said that he won't negotiate into the season: that once it's time for football he doesn't want the distraction) ... but if all parties have discussed this at length and are at an understanding of it being the team's position I could see it being the case. The team may well have told Russ that they want him this year at $1.5 and are then willing to pay whatever more it would take (and make no mistake, it would take much more) to sign him next year and assured him that he would be rewarded handsomely for the wait.

I wouldn't like it, it would be Schneider taking a chance of 'Hutching it' and becoming another Ruskell (who everybody loved at first too), but I could see it being the case. It would fill in a lot of blanks.

Either way it's way to early for this forum to be falling apart over it. Russ is our QB this year and I believe him when he says he'll be the same QB whether it's for 1.5 or 25 million dollars.

Bob - Please reference the single post where I "Gone full Troll on Anthony"?

If you are going to call out a Shack member by name and throw out your usual name calling or insult to them, you had better be ready for a response. Did you not learn on the OT thread when you insult someone who has done nothing to you and offer your intellectually lazy, weak Bar Stool opinions and/or beliefs that the person might respond in a factual manner that will embarrass you? Fortunately for you at this moment I am too busy to bother with your nonsense and in the good spirit of celebrating the Nations Birthday I will pass on giving you the response that you deserve.

[NorthHawk]

It occurs to me that after this year both Okung and Irvin have contracts that are due.
If their plan is to replace Irvin with Clark and offer Okung less than he has been getting, there are more savings there, too.
So the idea of just paying the $1.5 million this year looks a little more logical from both sides as there might be more money on the table then.

[savvyman]

Probably right. To be clear, I didn't mean I didn't think they were really trying to get him signed, but more that they might be figuring that advantage into their offer somehow (and be more insistent on it than I had considered).

It's late now and I've been on the river all day in 107F heat. Will ponder more tomorrow (if anyone gives a sht)...

LOL - Trust me - We Don't. Save your time and effort and instead enjoy the Nations Birthday.

[HumanCockroach]

I think it's fairly comical watching the fans freak out about this contract. This forum runs the gamut from extreme to extreme; we've got Savvy gone full on troll and Anthony taking the bait sink line and hooker, even on the second line bearing identical bait to the first ... Obi jumping off the Wilson Bandwagon and half the folks in here just plain nervous as hell though saying very little about it.

First: it's not as though negotiations were taking an inordinate amount of time or have actually come to the impasse the press would have us believe. The time frame is still current and on schedule. At least as I see it; When it didn't happen first thing in Feb I figured the signing would come before Training camp and I still do.

On the other hand however I also I think it's entirely possible that the Schneider and Carroll want these negotiations to last into next offseason. There is a considerable advantage to playing with a Franchise QB at back up prices and they may well want to continue that model for one more season. I see it as risky because it exposes Russ to the temptation of going with a team willing to give up two firsts and an unmatchable contract to get him but it would explain both the team and Russ emphasizing that there is no deadline for the contract to be signed (even though Russ has said that he won't negotiate into the season: that once it's time for football he doesn't want the distraction) ... but if all parties have discussed this at length and are at an understanding of it being the team's position I could see it being the case. The team may well have told Russ that they want him this year at $1.5 and are then willing to pay whatever more it would take (and make no mistake, it would take much more) to sign him next year and assured him that he would be rewarded handsomely for the wait.

I wouldn't like it, it would be Schneider taking a chance of 'Hutching it' and becoming another Ruskell (who everybody loved at first too), but I could see it being the case. It would fill in a lot of blanks.

Either way it's way to early for this forum to be falling apart over it. Russ is our QB this year and I believe him when he says he'll be the same QB whether it's for 1.5 or 25 million dollars.

Yep. Though I would point out that signing an offer with another team that is willing to give up the two first round picks, does not in any way make it Wilson's choice, as it still is Seattle that has the choice to "match" the offer and retain Wilson. Truth is, that a player can and sometimes does actually lose money by trying to use that option.

Ultimately, imo they will get something done, and honestly I simply can't grasp people's issues with either side looking to get the best deal possible. It is what a negotiation is after all.

[RiverDog]

ROTFLMAO.

Don't tell the guys with necks, or life debilitating injuries

No offense, HC, but your statement is typical of the disconnect that exists between the fantasy some of us fans experience from our easy chairs and what truly exists in the real world.

You want to shed tears for those poor, abused NFL player that endure such an obscene, unconscious able risk to their lives or livelihood for the millions of dollars they're paid? Go tell that to the guy that roofed your house. Roofers endure a much greater risk of suffering a life changing injury than an NFL player by about ten fold and for a tiny fraction of the compensation they receive.

[HumanCockroach]

No offense RD, but having actually done roofing, as well as other "dangerous" jobs in different construction fields ( such as refractory work in steel mills, glass plants etc) your idea of "fantasy" dangers and injuries compared to NFL players from my "easy chair" doesn't mean a whole Hell of a lot to me. Having done the work, I feel fairly ok with that assessment, and the comparison was between billionaire owners "risking it all" and players who risked nothing, not dangerous work and players. I wasn't crying for the players, but I sure the Hell am not going to shed a Damn tear for a billionaire who at this point in the NFL's history, is guaranteed a huge profit, risks NOTHING by owning the team, as at ANY point can collect ENORMOUS profit selling said team, can bend cities over backwards for taxpayers money to increase revenue, or stadiums, be bailed out by the league in dire circumstances, and pretty much have an unbreakable model moving forward. You want to shed that tear for those billionaires, be my guest, I am not, nor will I ever feel pity for them, and their plight if having to deal with the "greedy" players.

[RiverDog]

No offense RD, but having actually done roofing, as well as other "dangerous" jobs in different construction fields ( such as refractory work in steel mills, glass plants etc) your idea of "fantasy" dangers and injuries compared to NFL players from my "easy chair" doesn't mean a whole Hell of a lot to me. Having done the work, I feel fairly ok with that assessment, and the comparison was between billionaire owners "risking it all" and players who risked nothing, not dangerous work and players. I wasn't crying for the players, but I sure the Hell am not going to shed a Damn tear for a billionaire who at this point in the NFL's history, is guaranteed a huge profit, risks NOTHING by owning the team, as at ANY point can collect ENORMOUS profit selling said team, can bend cities over backwards for taxpayers money to increase revenue, or stadiums, be bailed out by the league in dire circumstances, and pretty much have an unbreakable model moving forward. You want to shed that tear for those billionaires, be my guest, I am not, nor will I ever feel pity for them, and their plight if having to deal with the "greedy" players.

Then stop with this "tell the guys with necks, or life debilitating injuries". You're making it sound as if the owners are running some sort of sweat shop with unbearable working conditions.

No where did I express any sympathy for the owners, at least not in relation to your crying about the physical risks NFL players must endure.

[HumanCockroach]

Christ RD, at least read what my post was in response to, prior, to making a closed minded judgement on a single sentence response, that you are determined to make into a "pity party" claim on my part. Just because I hold zero sympathy for owners "risking it all" (which isn't the case no matter how some are attempting to paint it) doesn't mean I am crying for the players. I have posted NUMEROUS times that the players know the risks.

The comparison was between those poor billionaires who risked it all, and they players who risked nothing. Which is silly, and if you believe otherwise, that's your own issue.

[RiverDog]

Christ RD, at least read what my post was in response to, prior, to making a closed minded judgement on a single sentence response, that you are determined to make into a "pity party" claim on my part. Just because I hold zero sympathy for owners "risking it all" (which isn't the case no matter how some are attempting to paint it) doesn't mean I am crying for the players. I have posted NUMEROUS times that the players know the risks.

The comparison was between those poor billionaires who risked it all, and they players who risked nothing. Which is silly, and if you believe otherwise, that's your own issue.

"You want to shed that tear for those billionaires, be my guest"

I'd say that was a little of the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you? What was it that I said that would give you the impression that I'd shed tears for billionaire owners?

[HumanCockroach]

I'll respond to that the second you acknowledge that my post had zero to do with crying for the players, and was merely a response to the claim they " risked nothing" while the billionaires risked " everything" . Once you actually READ what I responded too, and the post , which I was responding TO. Someone made a claim, that is clueless, and I called them on it, your decision to paint me as something I am not, was your own doing.

Edit: as for the statement of a pot calling the kettle black, wasn't I RD that took a statement to an entirely DIFFERENT topic ( ie owners risk vs players) from a random posters post, and starting throwing in claims about what someone thinks or means. I said you WANT to shed a tear, be my guest, not you ARE. Though by throwing your lot in with someone claiming the risks taken by said billionaire owners, one could certainly think that.

[burrrton]

Christ RD, at least read what my post was in response to, prior, to making a closed minded judgement on a single sentence response, that you are determined to make into a "pity party" claim on my part.

Hey, HC- since you're up in arms about someone arguing with a position you didn't take, you want to quote for me where anyone claimed owners "risk it all" buying an NFL franchise?

The point was that the capital required to buy a franchise is not something you can just walk down to the credit union and finance. There is an extremely high level of commitment implied in a purchase that large, both in earning the money and in writing a check for it.

Acting like that's roughly equivalent to you putting a thousand bucks in an IRA is nonsense and betrays a fundamental lack of understanding and experience.

As I said, most that have that kind of money worked their *asses* off for it, and those who didn't (I'm not even sure who you think hasn't, but let's assume there are owners who are trust fund babies) inherited it from someone who *did*.

Players make NO such commitment, and none of the risks they voluntarily assume (for the pleasure of being paid more in a year than you'll see in a decade) erase that.

[burrrton]

And to head off the next strawman, this isn't to say the players deserve *no* deference.

As I said, I'm all for the players getting guaranteed money if they can negotiate it.

Let's just not work under the attitude they have some moral right to expect every dime they should be paid they *will* be paid regardless of performance.

They simply have a skill that can make them *SICK* amounts of money for a few years (less for some, more for others) that comes with a certain level of risk.

Nothing more, nothing less, and you shouldn't lose any sleep if any one of them has to leave the world of fawning fans, 5-month vacations, and million-dollar paychecks and enter the real world of household budgets and 9-5 jobs like the rest of the planet (well, the most fortunate).

[NorthHawk]

You're premise is they are risking a lot to buy an NFL team when history shows that it has been one of the safest and lucrative investments a person with enough money can get. It's why the existing owners don't have to go looking for buyers of teams and can veto a potential purchase.

[HumanCockroach]

The players aren't owed anything beyond what they earn because *they haven't risked anything*.

Fine, here is your claim ( stupid as it is), as for the poor wittle billionaires, you didn't say they risked everything, and no where have I said they risked nothing. They certainly aren't putting their well being on the line, nor to the best of my knowledge have they ever risked their ability to live a a long healthy life to procure a franchise that I am aware of, have they? Please tell us all about it. Tell us uncle Burton about the suffering, hard times and abuse they have had to endure. Share with us the multitudes of "rags to riches" stories These poor owners have had to face, surely there must be thousands similar to the players in that regard, right? Please enlighten us all to the "risks" involved for the poor misunderstood owners.

[Hawktown]

people with that much money don't have to do any work to make more money, they pay people to find them more money and do nothing (for the most part) themselves to earn a penny of it. That is all i will say about that!


Do you really think that these billionaires have enough time in a day to have very much to do with mostly any of their money making ventures? I think not, I barely have enough time to mow the lawn on 40 - 60k a year.

[burrrton]

You're premise is they are risking a lot to buy an NFL team when history shows that it has been one of the safest and lucrative investments a person with enough money can get. It's why the existing owners don't have to go looking for buyers of teams and can veto a potential purchase.

And history shows you make money if you invest in money market funds- got a few hundred thousand, or million, or a billion dollars you care to put into one?

The fact that they're smart with their money doesn't support your point.

[burrrton]

you didn't say they risked everything

No s***, HC, but thanks for arguing with a strawman.

. They certainly aren't putting their well being on the line, nor to the best of my knowledge have they ever risked their ability to live a a long healthy life to procure a franchise that I am aware of, have they?

You can't do things like buy NFL teams until you've done so many, many times over what a typical NFL player has dreamt of putting on the line.

All that money the owner put forth to buy the team didn't grown on that tree I mentioned earlier- it was *earned* by risking a shitload more than any player has risked by gallantly agreeing to bump into other guys their size for a few million bucks.

[jshawaii22]

Be careful of how you phrased 'the owner's earned it'... that may apply to Paul Allen and the 'business men' of the group, but I don't think that applies to the children of owner's of SF, Oakland or Indy and they certainly didn't 'earn' their lot in life. While a minority, it's an important distinction.

[burrrton]

It's a distinction without a difference- the point is someone earned it.

If you're fortunate enough to be able to give your son or daughter enough money to buy a team, do I have any right to view their ownership as less 'deserved'? Of course not.

[RiverDog]

Fine, here is your claim ( stupid as it is), as for the poor wittle billionaires, you didn't say they risked everything, and no where have I said they risked nothing. They certainly aren't putting their well being on the line, nor to the best of my knowledge have they ever risked their ability to live a a long healthy life to procure a franchise that I am aware of, have they? Please tell us all about it. Tell us uncle Burton about the suffering, hard times and abuse they have had to endure. Share with us the multitudes of "rags to riches" stories These poor owners have had to face, surely there must be thousands similar to the players in that regard, right? Please enlighten us all to the "risks" involved for the poor misunderstood owners.

Jerry Richardson, longtime owner of the Carolina Panthers, was a former NFL player and played during an era that was a hell of a lot riskier than the conditions today's players are subjected to, and he played at a high risk position, wide receiver.

Be careful when you start painting 31 people with the same brush stroke.

[c_hawkbob]

Not that I care about this particular tangent the discussion has taken, but could not "someone earned it" be said of every dime in existence? How is that the point? A son inherits a team and "deserves it" more than or as much as a player that plays for that team and is payed according to his value?

One boy is born the son of a billionaire and one is born with exceptional talent and physical gifts.

Seems to me the first boy, who has to do nothing more than remain alive and aware and functional to "earn' his position in life has a lot easier row to hoe than the second boy that must, no matter how gifted and athletic, devote himself to his craft to get himself into the rare position (even among the very many others so gifted) to capitalize on his gifts.

It's not a matter of caring, just trying to follow.

[burrrton]

A son inherits a team and "deserves it" more than or as much as a player that plays for that team and is payed according to his value?

Relative to each other, yes. To say otherwise is to discount what it took to earn the money for the team in the first place.

Seems to me the first boy, who has to do nothing more than remain alive and aware and functional to "earn' his position in life has a lot easier row to hoe than the second boy that must, no matter how gifted and athletic, devote himself to his craft to get himself into the rare position (even among the very many others so gifted) to capitalize on his gifts.

The first boy's parents earned it, didn't they? Again, if you're able to give your child the money for a team, should your child's ownership be deemed inferior to that of other owners' who earned the money themselves?

The athlete's effort is worth a *lot* (and they're paid accordingly!), but I just can't see why anyone would think that should mean this profession they're fortunate enough to play in for a few years out of college should guarantee them their money by default, regardless of performance, etc, when virtually no other profession on the planet operates with such guarantees.

[c_hawkbob]

Again the part I'm hung up on is "The first boy's parents earned it, didn't they?"

Sure they did, but so what? Just as I believe in not visiting the sins of a parent upon the child I believe in not congratulating, or in this case bestowing respect, upon the child for the accomplishment of the parent.

I have been following the line of discussion as the first person owner vs player "earning it", not their parents.

Lofa Tatupu had to put a lot mote dedication and effort into earning his way to the Pro Bowl as a player than Mike Brown did to become owner of the Bengals. At least to my mind.