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by **obiken** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:04 am

Brady (9:51 a.m.): You good Jonny boy?

Jastremski (9:53 a.m.): Still nervous; so far so good though. I'll be alright

Brady (9:54 a.m.): You didn't do anything wrong bud.

Jastremski (9:55 a.m.): I know; I'll be all goo

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/brady-pa ... z3Zp5GapzD

by **RiverDog** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:19 am

I can't remember whether it was in this forum or one of the others I frequent, but when this scandal first broke, I got into a debate with a couple of posters regarding the effect temperature could have on air pressure, so I did a little research, even consulted with two PhD chemist friends of mine to confirm my findings. The bottom line was that there is no way the relatively minor difference in the temperature of the air the balls were inflated with (approximately 70 degrees) and the ambient temperature at game time that night (about 50 degrees) in the short amount of time they were exposed to the elements (roughly 2 hours) could account for 2 psi loss, or about 15% (2/13), of air pressure. There was only three ways to explain the discrepancy between the readings taken just before the game and those observed at halftime: The balls either (1) leaked, (2) the readings were inaccurate, or (3)they were intentionally deflated. Given that there were a number of Pats balls that were under pressure and that all of the Ravens balls tested OK, I think we can safely eliminate #1 and #2. Someone had to have tampered with those balls. Bill Belichek's explanation in that press conference was silly, embarrassing, and just plain wrong.

Given Brady's well documented attention to detail regarding game balls, I think it is very likely that he was at least aware that the balls were being intentionally deflated. The spike in conversations between Brady and the equipment manager when the scandal first broke, a spike that Brady himself could explain if he turned over his phone to investigators, is very suspicious, and unless Brady can offer some sort of evidence to the contrary, the accusations stand: He's as guilty as sin.

As a rule, this wouldn't be anything more serious than a couple of Gaylord Perry spit balls, but there are a couple of factors that at least in my mind, raise this incident to a higher level: Brady stonewalled it. He needs to be punished, if for nothing else, for not cooperating with investigators. There's sure to be other investigations in the years to come, and being that they do not have subpoena power, the league has to make it clear that there will be a penalty for those that do not cooperate with their investigations and a reward for those that do.

Belichek and Kraft hitched their wagons to Brady and their staff, vehemently denied any wrongdoing, and acted like they were insulted that anyone would dare question their honesty. They need to be held accountable for the actions of their subordinates. And lastly, this is the second time this regime has been caught cheating on some relatively minor rule. They, too, need to be punished a little more severely than had those factors not been present.

by **savvyman** » Mon May 11, 2015 6:23 am

Well it looks like the Biggest casualty of all in "Deflategate" will not be anyone in the Patriots organization.

No - It is this guy who pays the price - why? Because he exposes the corruption at the top of the NFL - and the Corporate media cans his ass for doing this.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/07/bill-simmons-questions-goodells-testicular-fortitude-on-brady-ban/

FYI - I remember posting here at the Shack quite awhile back on how the NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell was making $44 million a year - a fact that no one was aware of - and how he was not worth anywhere near that much amount of money - and that he was basically a weaselly suck up lackey.

Fast forward one year or so from then - Goodell is now booed by the crowd every time he walks to the stage to announce the next draft pick......

by **savvyman** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:41 pm

Just got Buzzed - Brady suspended for 4 games.

Would have been more impactful (but less favorable with the general public) if the NFL had stripped the Patriots of their first 3 draft picks in next years draft - as I advocated earlier in my opinion.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/deflate-gate-tom-brady-suspended-four-games-n357076

by **kalibane** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:43 pm

They lost their first round pick next year.

I also don't think it would be more impactful. Brady and thus the Pats don't have much of a window to win more championships. If these four missed games cause them to miss the playoffs or make them a wildcard team instead of a one or two seed it will end up being a lost year when they don't have many left as a realistic Super Bowl threat.

by **savvyman** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:45 pm

kalibane wrote:They lost their first round pick next year.

Really? Good to hear - Only fair in my opinion.

by **Hawkstar** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:12 pm

1st round next year and a 4th the following year. Not to mention a cool 1 Million dollar fine.

I thought Brady would get 2 games and the club would be fined $50k or something trivial.

by **RiverDog** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:16 pm

As long as it stands and isn't watered down on appeal, I'm good with the punishment. Sitting out 1/4 of the season is huge, as is the loss of a first round and forth round picks.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:26 pm

Well looks like Goodell is trying to finally grow a pair. In light of the media love fest for Brady the last few days I thought he might hiccup on the penalty phase. Even at that the talking heads on the NFL network are ruminating over the unfairness of the decision to Tom Brady.Its weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth as i type.

What is so unfair to Brady being suspended for obviously willfully cheating and then lying wide eyed and red faced like a 12 year old schoolboy caught cheating on his test? Hes been to 6 SBs, 4 of which he was benefiting from illegal filming. The past 2 its highly likely he was tampering with air pressure in balls and really GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT ELSE. Screw him, hes getting better than he deserves.As for the Patriots losing picks and a million dollars(a million? really why bother?) Its toilet paper for Kraft. They have bent the rules or out right cheated as a way of life. During the Ravens game it is debatable that they broke rules of eligible and ineligible receivers to the point the referees had to address it for future games.Spy gate which they got off Scott free on with 3 Lombardi in the case, manipulating the injury reports for a decade plus. Mano E Mano has never been their style.

Its incredible an organization that has this much on the field success has a stain on it that will never wash off. Yeah they will all be first ballot HOFers anyway but still, there will always be the questions....

by **HumanCockroach** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:33 pm

I was a bit surprised that they came down stiffer on the franchise than on Brady to be honest, it really looked to me like golden boy or not, Brady was going to be left holding the bag.... A little surprised that Bellichick escaped any punishment ( except loss of picks, and Brady available for 1 or 3 games, actual number he will miss after appeal)... I was under the impression that ignorance was not an excuse, must have heard that from someone else...

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:42 pm

I was just reading some excerpts from the NFL communication to the Pats ordering the penalties. Interesting was the mention that while the investigators were unable to conclusively prove the balls were tampered with prior to the Colts game it is suspected the practice has been going on since BEFORE THE 2014 SEASON. The 2007 Spy gate penalties were also addressed as a reason for the team penalty. While the report actually exonerates Billacheat and Kraft I personally have NO DOUBT BB was also "generally aware" of what was going on.

Pats got off easy.And I am curious to see how this appeal turns out. Brady has been a picture of absolute arrogance. If he were Pinocchio his nose wouldn't fit in his limo, never mind his helmet.

by **obiken** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:43 pm

I predicted 4 games, that's what he got. The penalty on the Pats was harsh IMHO, but nobody is going to cry for the Pats. Bounty gate to me was the worse.

by **obiken** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:46 pm

NO, I think Brady the emails prove to me that Brady knew and asked for it to be done. I dont think anyone else did. Gotta give it up for Mark Brunell, he called a spade a spade from the very beginning.

by **NorthHawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:53 pm

I suspect Brady will win his appeal and have it reduced to 2 games or less.
I'm not sure if the Pats can appeal the penalty of losing picks, though as the team isn't covered by a CBA like the players are.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:22 pm

Kraft said last week the organization would accept the findings and punishment. Brady not so much from what his attorney and dad had to say. Heres my take. If Brady appeals more of this is going to come out. What Ive seen of the communications and testimony to the commission its not "more likely than not blah blah blah" its he did it, he ordered it, the day after the league confiscated the balls he was calling these two guys, inviting them to his office, texting repeatedly, calling repeatedly, things he had never done before. Then when he was interviewed by Ted Wells he initially denied even knowing one of the ballboys until he was made aware that the league had his communications. So he lied in Wells face about a peripheral question. Man hes guilty as sin, even RD believes it.

If he drags it on its going to soil his reputation even further. If Brady were to come out and say, look I had some air taken out I didn't realize it was such a big deal,sorry i lied, didn't want to hurt my team for my mistake.
Sit on the pine 4 games and everyone will move on.

Hes still one of the greatest ever. I haven't been his biggest fan over the years but honestly its sad to see this spectacle.

by **NorthHawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:33 pm

Maybe he'll get tired of it all and retire after the year.
He doesn't seem like the type to do so, but he is getting older and who knows what his wife might be thinking.

by **RiverDog** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:45 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:I was a bit surprised that they came down stiffer on the franchise than on Brady to be honest, it really looked to me like golden boy or not, Brady was going to be left holding the bag.... A little surprised that Bellichick escaped any punishment ( except loss of picks, and Brady available for 1 or 3 games, actual number he will miss after appeal)... I was under the impression that ignorance was not an excuse, must have heard that from someone else...

I agree. I would have thought that Belichick would have at least drawn a fine if not a suspension. He's the man at the top and has to take responsibility for the actions of his subordinates. Same goes for Kraft. He was screaming bloody murder when this first came out. This was the second time this regime has been caught skirting the rules.

But we can't expect every single detail of the punishment to go exactly the way we think it should have.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:17 pm

I am stunned Billacheat was spared any penalty. Sean Payton gets a year for something he was unaware of and Billacheat gets zippo? Oh well like RD says, it isn't perfect. Frankly I thought it deserved more but would be punished less so I'm OK with it.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:18 pm

What if Garrappolo goes 4-0 and looks in command doing so???Just a thought...

by **savvyman** » Mon May 11, 2015 5:46 pm

Not over yet - Brady's agent promises an appeal.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/05/tom_bradys_four-game_suspensio.html

>>>>>>>> "The discipline is ridiculous and has no legitimate basis. In my opinion, this outcome was pre-determined; there was no fairness in the Wells investigation whatsoever. There is no evidence that Tom directed footballs be set at pressures below the allowable limits. In fact, the evidence shows Tom clearly emphasized that footballs be set at pressures within the rules. Tom also cooperated with the investigation and answered every question presented to him. The Wells Report presents significant evidence, however, that the NFL lacks standards or protocols with respect to its handling of footballs prior to games; this is not the fault of Tom or the Patriots. The report also presents significant evidence the NFL participated with the Colts in some type of pre-AFC Championship Game planning regarding the footballs. This fact may raise serious questions about the integrity of the games we view on Sundays. We will appeal, and if the hearing officer is completely independent and neutral, I am very confident the Wells Report will be exposed as an incredibly frail exercise in fact-finding and logic. The NFL has a well-documented history of making poor disciplinary decisions that often are overturned when truly independent and neutral judges or arbitrators preside, and a former federal judge has found the commissioner has abused his discretion in the past, so this outcome does not surprise me. Sadly, today's decision diminishes the NFL as it tells its fans, players and coaches that the games on the field don't count as much as the games played on Park Avenue."<<<<<<

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:50 pm

Hey Brady's attorney. The NFL is the NFL. They make the rules and you are expected to follow them. If you dont you get spanked so dispense with the legalese.This isn't some sort of civil right struggle. Its a CHEATER GETTING CAUGHT RED HANDED

by **obiken** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:52 pm

Brady was trapped. He normally would have stood up and said I am sorry, I did it, it wont happen again. With a SB suspension, hanging over his head he couldnt do anything else.

by **HumanCockroach** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:03 pm

No way in the world do I believe this is a one time instance, simply no way do I believe it. Brady knew, and has known for a long time. Brady's agent just treated everyone in the world on social media like gullible four year olds.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon May 11, 2015 10:05 pm

obiken wrote:Brady was trapped. He normally would have stood up and said I am sorry, I did it, it wont happen again. With a SB suspension, hanging over his head he couldnt do anything else.

I disagree. The commission report states that there is suspicion that the deflation of footballs may have happened before the 2014 season.Brady cant be honest. Just like spygate I have no doubt this practice has gone on for years earning the Pats an unfair advantage and a permanent reputation of cheaters.

by **kalibane** » Tue May 12, 2015 6:01 am

The apologists are getting too hung up on the words "more likely than not", assigning more meaning to it than they should mainly because it's convenient.

As circumstantial as the case is, they have pretty strong evidence that Brady was involved. The vast majority of criminal convictions are in circumstantial cases so the apologists throwing that word around really means nothing. I actually think if this were a crime they have a fairly decent chance of making this stick in court. And it's mainly because of Brady's hubris.

When Brady went on the record and lied about knowing the equipment guys he sealed his fate. You may not have Brady's texts and e-mails, however what they do have is a record of one of the equipment guys texting Brady; Brady texting back. And both requesting to talk to each other via phone call. The context for these exchanges is the deflation of footballs. It's doubtful that more than a handful of people in the Patriots organization (not counting players) have access to Brady's personal number. But Brady would, I guess, have us believe that he simply "forgot" that he knew this guy even though he was having conversations with him less than a week before he claimed he didn't?

Furthermore, if this was a criminal case they'd be able to subpoena his phone records and put these equipment guys under oath whether the Patriots felt like allowing it or not.

They can challenge this all they want but the NFL had to send a message. When you start messing with the integrity of the game there cannot be gray area. It doesn't matter if the advantage gained is miniscule or massive. Because then where do you draw the line?

They thought they were gaining an advantage otherwise they wouldn't have bothered doing it. There are all kinds of far reaching ramifications if you start fudging on this sort of thing. In principle I find this worse than a guy using steroids even if this particular offense had less impact. It's isn't as impactful as say lowering a rim in a basketball arena or having a smaller net in Hockey, but conceptually it's the same sort of thing. You are surreptitiously altering the agreed upon dimensions of the playing field because you believe it benefits you. This is no different than a guy getting 4 games for testing positive for a substance that is not steroids but is associated with steroids and therefore is against the rules.

Look no further than the suspension of Robert Mathis last year. They never proved he was on PEDs. In fact Mathis proved that the substance he was popped for was not a PED, no competitive advantage was gained and was being used for something wholly unrelated to football (fertility). Still he sat out 4 games under the PED policy because he broke the rules.

But hey if Brady wants to continue to tarnish his legacy by not accepting his punishment then go for it.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 7:03 am

Had Brady been smart about this he would have said he told the equipment guys that he liked the balls at the lowest pressure permitted by the rules.
If it was less, it wasn't his fault and maybe the gauges are inaccurate. Unfortunately for him he tried evasive tactics instead and is now suffering the consequences.

by **obiken** » Tue May 12, 2015 7:25 am

Guys I don't think Brady's rep takes a hit at all. All you have to do is look at when we got Dion Branch, under Brady SB MVP. Under Hass Branch was dog food.

by **kalibane** » Tue May 12, 2015 7:48 am

It won't keep him out of the hall or even from getting in on the first ballot but it's going to follow him. Any time people start debating best QB of all time it'll come up.

by **RiverDog** » Tue May 12, 2015 8:09 am

I realize that this is a Seahawks forum and as such, we all may be a bit biased. Nevertheless, I'm impressed with the measured responses that have been put forth, especially Kal's. They are all opinions that are in line with the facts of the case.

I would like to know how long this has been going on. The rule that allowed teams control of the game balls was instituted back in 2006...with Brady as one of the main lobbyists..so we know it didn't go back more than 8 years, and I would guess that for at least the first couple of years, they didn't concoct a strategy to intentionally deflate the game balls. But is it possible that they could have been doing this and getting away with it for 5 or 6 years? If so, then they would be forced to take action against Belichick as one could argue more strongly that if he didn't know about it, he should have. If it were for just one or two seasons, then the case against Belichick wouldn't be nearly as strong.

If there is a travesty in all of this, it's that Belichick is getting off Scot free. He's a slam dunk first ballot candidate for the HOF and if Deflate Gate was going on for multiple years, this needs to be included in his record. I don't want to see him banished from the HOF because this is really a quite trivial event as far as gaining a competitive advantage, but the story must be recorded for history's sake and included in his bio.

So I guess what I am saying is that the investigation should not stop here. They need to keep digging and see if they can determine how long this has been going on. The record needs to accurate and complete.

The other thing that needs to happen is that they need to abolish the rule allowing teams control of the game balls. It was a stupid of the league to cave in to their star quarterbacks in the first place as outside of a couple of spoiled quarterbacks, there was absolutely no demand for this rule. It would be one less thing that they have to police.

by **Oly** » Tue May 12, 2015 8:33 am

RiverDog wrote:I would like to know how long this has been going on. The rule that allowed teams control of the game balls was instituted back in 2006...with Brady as one of the main lobbyists..so we know it didn't go back more than 8 years, and I would guess that for at least the first couple of years, they didn't concoct a strategy to intentionally deflate the game balls. But is it possible that they could have been doing this and getting away with it for 5 or 6 years? [...] So I guess what I am saying is that the investigation should not stop here. They need to keep digging and see if they can determine how long this has been going on. The record needs to accurate and complete.

With the stats I've seen about the Patriots' insanely low fumble rate compared to the rest of the league, I'd guess a long time. But if the evidence they could gather for the AFC Championship game a few months ago was all circumstantial, I don't know how they'd gather information from years back that was good enough to justify more sanctions.

RiverDog wrote:The other thing that needs to happen is that they need to abolish the rule allowing teams control of the game balls. It was a stupid of the league to cave in to their star quarterbacks in the first place as outside of a couple of spoiled quarterbacks, there was absolutely no demand for this rule. It would be one less thing that they have to police.

IF they are going to have a rule about air pressure at all, then I agree completely.

But as I've been thinking about it, I'm more inclined to agree with Andy Benoit that there shouldn't be a rule: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/08/nfl-infla ... sure-rule/. Any argument in favor of ditching a rule is going to get a fair hearing from me.

Either have one set of footballs that both teams use on game day, or let each team bring their own that have been rubbed down/under inflated/over inflated/sprinkled with holy water/whatever, as long as they haven't added any foreign substance to the balls.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 9:03 am

If they want to clean up this rule as well as appease the differing requests from QBs, they should have balls inflated to 3 different pressures that are within the current guidelines.
Brady would choose the softest ball, and apparently Aaron Rodgers like the footballs inflated as much as possible, so he would choose the highest pressure. I'm sure there are others as well as those that like it in the middle
NFL officials would administrate the inflation of each set and provide them for each game.

by **RiverDog** » Tue May 12, 2015 9:24 am

NorthHawk wrote:If they want to clean up this rule as well as appease the differing requests from QBs, they should have balls inflated to 3 different pressures that are within the current guidelines.
Brady would choose the softest ball, and apparently Aaron Rodgers like the footballs inflated as much as possible, so he would choose the highest pressure. I'm sure there are others as well as those that like it in the middle
NFL officials would administrate the inflation of each set and provide them for each game.

Do they provide the same service for backup quarterbacks? Shouldn't they have a bevvy of footballs set at a customized psi for their use in case the starter gets injured? If not, then wouldn't the team with the uninjured quarterback have an advantage over the team forced to use their backup? Or what if a team employs two quarterbacks within the same series, ala Tim Tebow? Do they change footballs for each quarterback? And if they do maintain separate sets of footballs, what happens if someone screws up and puts the wrong ball in play? Can the team that was the victim of an officiating screw up protest the game? And how often do you check these multiple sets of footballs? And let's not forget about the kickers and punters. Why shouldn't they have a football that's specific to their quirks?

We're re-inventing the wheel here. Why can't the pros deal with a generic football like every high school and college quarterback has to? Why are they so different as to be offered these special services?

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 9:36 am

Backup QB?
What happens now? They have to play with the starters likings for inflation - no change.

Or
They could have 3 sets and both teams play with the balls provided for the game.
If a Backup comes in he tells the Official which of the 3 he wants.

Kickers and punters already have their own set of footballs, but to be consistent, the Officials would keep those, too.
I can't imagine a kicker wanting a softer ball, but who knows?

Wrong ball?
Mark them with S (soft) M (medium) H(hard) at the time the Officials inflate them.
The Center knows what the QB wants and can point it out before the possession starts.

It's very doable.

by **mykc14** » Tue May 12, 2015 10:27 am

IMO the NFL has a pretty good rule. Allow the QB's to handle the balls in the days leading up to the game. The balls must be inspected and approved by the officials prior to use. That inspection looks for any sort of tampering or illegal 'doctoring' of the ball and, of course, air pressure. After they are inspected they are not to be taken from the official's locker room until they are taken, by the officials, to the field. IMO this will be much more closely monitored from now on and shouldn't be a problem.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 10:33 am

mykc14 wrote:IMO the NFL has a pretty good rule. Allow the QB's to handle the balls in the days leading up to the game. The balls must be inspected and approved by the officials prior to use. That inspection looks for any sort of tampering or illegal 'doctoring' of the ball and, of course, air pressure. After they are inspected they are not to be taken from the official's locker room until they are taken, by the officials, to the field. IMO this will be much more closely monitored from now on and shouldn't be a problem.

Makes sense.

by **RiverDog** » Tue May 12, 2015 10:48 am

Perhaps I'm hopelessly old school, but I just don't see the need for this provision that allows for teams/QB's to handle or manipulate the game balls. It has nothing to do with player safety, nothing to do with competitiveness, nothing to do with maximizing income, nothing to do with enhancing the fan experience, nothing to help the networks, nothing, not a damn thing. It has absolutely no purpose other than to satisfy the quirks and superstitions of a handful of primo donna quarterbacks and keeps open the possibility of abuse as happened in this latest event. How do we know that numerous other teams are engaging in the same practice that Brady and the Pats did? What's to stop an enterprising equipment manager from tampering with the gauges the refs use to measure the footballs, giving the home team the lower air gauge and the visitors the higher one?

The Patriots have proven that teams can't be trusted to police themselves. It's like asking the fox to guard the hen house. Just give them a properly inflated generic ball same as college and high school players. Why do we always have to complicate things?

by **kalibane** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:48 am

Have to agree with you Riv. It just seems stupid to make things so complicated.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 11:55 am

Like a lot of things the NFL does, it benefits Offenses by having the balls prepared to a QBs liking.
I agree that permitting the QBs to set up the balls to their preferred specifications is the opposite of true competition where they all use the same ball, but it's here now and I think we have to make the best of it.

mykc14 is probably right that if we have to put up with this, it's best they give the Officials the balls where the Officials can confirm they meet the rules and let them manage them after that. It's the simplest way forward.

by **Zorn76** » Tue May 12, 2015 1:31 pm

I'm surprised by the severity of the punishment. Not saying it wasn't warranted, per say, just didn't anticipate them going this particular route.

I expected much less, and will be somewhat shocked if the entire punishment holds up.

by **NorthHawk** » Tue May 12, 2015 3:02 pm

I think the punishment will end up being disappointingly less when it's all said and done.
I see this as the NFL trying to put a stake in the ground, but will be overrun by the appeals process.

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