OT: Justin Tucker

[4XPIPS]

Well someone's legacy is going to be tainted. Some people on forums are saying that is the reason he had a 73% FGM, year knowing that these allegations were going to come forward at some point, and that it affected his ability to focus. It maybe the case, but these allegations are from multiple sources. . We shall see how this one plays out. I wonder how many other athletes who got a rub and tug are starting wonder if they are next.

[Aseahawkfan]

Another dumbass trying to get away with bad behavior. How does an athlete watch what's happening with the public almost always finding out keep doing this. It isn't the 80s or 90s where the NFL can easily cover this stuff up. It's the era of 24/7-365 media and social media. Someone is always watching. Even an average person has a social media outlet if they are mistreated. The cost of pushing a story to the public is far lower than it has ever been with social media capable of spreading information faster than traditional media over the entire digital world.

[4XPIPS]

Another dumbass trying to get away with bad behavior. How does an athlete watch what's happening with the public almost always finding out keep doing this. It isn't the 80s or 90s where the NFL can easily cover this stuff up. It's the era of 24/7-365 media and social media. Someone is always watching. Even an average person has a social media outlet if they are mistreated. The cost of pushing a story to the public is far lower than it has ever been with social media capable of spreading information faster than traditional media over the entire digital world.

It's the same thing I can't understand when pro athletes who by most cases are well off, still drink and drive. When you can simply pull your phone out and get an Uber Black

[River Dog]

Sounds like Deshawn Watson all over again.

I'd have to see just how credible these women are. Who are they? Are they licensed therapists? How long have they been working in the business? With Watson, there was a whole helluva lot of them, over 60, so the mere quantity alone made the accusations more believable. But 6?

The other thing here is that many if not most massage parlors are nothing but fronts for prostitution, the infamous AMP's. Everyone, including legitimate therapists, know what the reputation of the business is. Do they make clear to the customer what their ground rules are? Do they have signage noting that solicitation of prostitution is illegal? Are they insisting that clients wear gym trunks at all times during the session, or are they allowing them to be nude with just a towel covering their privates? If they're allowing clients to lay on a massage table with nothing but a towel, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. If Tucker did something inappropriate, then tell them to file charges and let LE sort it out.

I'm not necessarily against these types of businesses as IMO what two consenting adults do is none of anyone's business. But a lot of them, particularly the AMP's, get their supply of young females through sex trafficking, some being forced to live within the establishment and to perform specific sex acts for customers, with employers threatening to turn them into ICE if they don't comply as many are not in the country legally, virtually sex slaves. With that kind of criminal activity going on, who knows how credible these reports/accusations are.

As far as football is concerned, unless and until someone files charges, it's really none of the team or the league's business. But it certainly isn't a good look for Tucker.

[c_hawkbob]

I must have missed it, what are we even talking about?

[River Dog]

I must have missed it, what are we even talking about?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/101 ... e-behavior

[River Dog]

Reading a little further into this, the story was run by a news website called the Baltimore Banner, which launched in June of 2022. it focuses mainly on local news. The incidents allegedly occurred from 2012-2016, or over 8 years ago and beyond the statute of limitations, so even if they wanted to, a criminal complaint can't be filed. Especially given the reputation of the massage business, it's going to take some pretty convincing evidence for me to believe it. I'm certainly not going to believe 6 massage therapists if that's all they got.

We'll see how this story develops, but right now, I smell a fish. If Tucker is innocent as he claims he is, he needs to file a lawsuit against this news website. It's hard to believe that they'd run a story on this if all they had was interviews from 6 massage therapists about incidents that occurred 8-12 years ago. That's why we have a statute of limitations.

[River Dog]

We all know what goes on inside many if not most massage parlors. So do the owners and employees of them. They are fronts for prostitution. Knowing the reputation their business has, if these establishments, 4 of which employed the therapists that are making the accusations, are legitimate, I want to know if they have in place procedures and policies that advise customers of expected behavior.

Do they have signage noting that soliciting prostitution is illegal? Do they allow clients to completely undress, with nothing but a towel covering their privates or are they required to at least wear gym trunks? What kind of attire do their therapists dress in? Are there any reviews of these establishments in the large number of adult websites that exists?

If, for example, a massage therapist allows clients to completely undress before a session and dresses provocatively herself, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for her if a customer goes a little too far. Not that it makes it right, but it does give a customer the impression that sex is on the table...literally.

The massage therapy industry is a very sketchy business. There have been incidents of business owners recruiting young women, mostly from Asia, and housing them at the establishment, at times not even allowing them to wander outside. They will insist that their therapists perform certain sex acts with customers and if they don't comply, they'll threaten them with calling ICE on them as many are here illegally. It's a business well known for sex trafficking. That's how Robert Kraft got caught as he happened to walk into a sting operation.

This creates a credibility issue with the people who work in them. I want to know a little more about the circumstances that existed, if that's even possible after 8-12 years, before I throw Justin Tucker under the bus.

But by the same token, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Tucker, either. Unless he grew up on a different planet than we did, he, too, knows the reputation these businesses have, yet he patronized them anyway. If you're gonna sleep with the dogs, don't be surprised when you wake up with fleas.

[Aseahawkfan]

How would I know? I've never been to a massage parlor. I've only heard some tales, while it is my understanding most massage parlors are legal businesses. For all I know guys like Deshaun Watson assume all massage parlors are like the illegal ones he goes to and he pressures massage therapists who don't do that type of business into doing that behavior offering them money and pestering them when they don't want to do it. So someone finally spoke up about him doing that.

It would not be great to be a trained massage therapist and having some guy think you were a prostitute because he has money or is a pro athlete.

[River Dog]

How would I know? I've never been to a massage parlor. I've only heard some tales, while it is my understanding most massage parlors are legal businesses. For all I know guys like Deshaun Watson assume all massage parlors are like the illegal ones he goes to and he pressures massage therapists who don't do that type of business into doing that behavior offering them money and pestering them when they don't want to do it. So someone finally spoke up about him doing that.

It would not be great to be a trained massage therapist and having some guy think you were a prostitute because he has money or is a pro athlete.

I've never been to one, either, but it's pretty common knowledge, and I'm sure that the legitimate businesses have to make it clear to their customers that they are not a whorehouse. Heck, even in doctor's offices, all of the examination rooms have a disclaimer that notes that aggressive behavior won't be tolerated.

I don't want to post any links as it would probably be violation of our TOS, but there are a number of adult websites out there with some very explicit ads and that attributes an address to them. There's at least 3 of them in Richland, 4-5 in Kennewick. Nearly all of them are staffed by Asians. There was a guy here in the Tri Cities who was busted for sex trafficking last year. It's common everywhere. My brother ruined his marriage in part because he started going to them.

In every state in the United States, more than 9,000 suspected Illicit Massage Businesses (IMBs) purportedly exploit tens of thousands of women, profiting from their labor and commercial sex services. Well-documented massage sex trafficking case what happened bear out an appallingly common story of exploitation for the profit of others

https://traffickinginstitute.org/illici ... ed-states/

According to the story, the spas Tucker was going to were "high end", or legitimate businesses, so maybe the therapists weren't prostitutes. But if Tucker's behavior was so bad, why didn't they go to the police? What were they afraid of? Why did they wait 8-12 years before they came forward and spilled their guts to some offbeat website news reporter?

This whole thing smells. If Tucker did what he is accused of, I have zero sympathy for him. If he's innocent as he says he is, he needs to be filing a lawsuit against the website that ran the story.

[Aseahawkfan]

I've never been to one, either, but it's pretty common knowledge, and I'm sure that the legitimate businesses have to make it clear to their customers that they are not a whorehouse. Heck, even in doctor's offices, all of the examination rooms have a disclaimer that notes that aggressive behavior won't be tolerated.

I don't want to post any links as it would probably be violation of our TOS, but there are a number of adult websites out there with some very explicit ads and that attributes an address to them. There's at least 3 of them in Richland, 4-5 in Kennewick. Nearly all of them are staffed by Asians. There was a guy here in the Tri Cities who was busted for sex trafficking last year. It's common everywhere. My brother ruined his marriage in part because he started going to them.

In every state in the United States, more than 9,000 suspected Illicit Massage Businesses (IMBs) purportedly exploit tens of thousands of women, profiting from their labor and commercial sex services. Well-documented massage sex trafficking case what happened bear out an appallingly common story of exploitation for the profit of others

https://traffickinginstitute.org/illici ... ed-states/

According to the story, the spas Tucker was going to were "high end", or legitimate businesses, so maybe the therapists weren't prostitutes. But if Tucker's behavior was so bad, why didn't they go to the police? What were they afraid of? Why did they wait 8-12 years before they came forward and spilled their guts to some offbeat website news reporter?

This whole thing smells. If Tucker did what he is accused of, I have zero sympathy for him. If he's innocent as he says he is, he needs to be filing a lawsuit against the website that ran the story.

Damn. Is this the brother married to the Ethiopian? He Deshaun Watstoned himself. I stay away from the prostitutes and strip clubs and those types of places. Not my cup of tea.

[River Dog]

Damn. Is this the brother married to the Ethiopian? He Deshaun Watstoned himself. I stay away from the prostitutes and strip clubs and those types of places. Not my cup of tea.

Yeah, that's him.

I've been into my share of strip clubs, but I've never frequented a rub-and-tug. Even if I had the desire for some relief, which I don't, some of those women, mostly in their 20's, are being trafficked, held against their will and forced to perform sexual acts with customers. If it wasn't for that part of the business, I'd be good with it. What two consenting adults do is no one else's business, regardless of if there's money involved.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, that's him.

I've been into my share of strip clubs, but I've never frequented a rub-and-tug. Even if I had the desire for some relief, which I don't, some of those women, mostly in their 20's, are being trafficked, held against their will and forced to perform sexual acts with customers. If it wasn't for that part of the business, I'd be good with it. What two consenting adults do is no one else's business, regardless of if there's money involved.

That's always the danger when you make something like prostitution illegal. You can no longer monitor it and create regulations to be followed or allow the people involved to seek out help if they are being criminally treated. Same like drugs.
I wouldn't participate in those businesses for personal reasons, but I don't think they should be illegal either. Victimless crime if two consenting adults.

I went to a strip club a few times when young dragged by friends. Found out I can't look at the women doing that. Feels improper. I guess Catholic school had an effect. I had to avert my eyes as I couldn't relax. I can't treat women that way. Moral programming...what can you do.

[River Dog]

That's always the danger when you make something like prostitution illegal. You can no longer monitor it and create regulations to be followed or allow the people involved to seek out help if they are being criminally treated. Same like drugs.
I wouldn't participate in those businesses for personal reasons, but I don't think they should be illegal either. Victimless crime if two consenting adults.

I went to a strip club a few times when young dragged by friends. Found out I can't look at the women doing that. Feels improper. I guess Catholic school had an effect. I had to avert my eyes as I couldn't relax. I can't treat women that way. Moral programming...what can you do.

There's a big difference between strip clubs and massage parlors. For one, there are lots more massage parlors than there are strip clubs. But the main difference is in the employees. Most strip club dancers are there on their own free will and willingly participate in their practices. Sure, there are incidents where a strip club manager might demand a sexual favor from an employee, but it's not the same as some of these young women being trafficked into the country, living on the premises and not allowed to leave, and forced to perform sexual acts with customers or get deported. It's 21st century slavery.

That's what happened to Robert Kraft. He went to a massage parlor for a rub-and-tug and ended up walking in on a sting operation. And as long as we're talking about Kraft, it's going to make it damn tough for the league to issue any kind of discipline to Tucker even though there are major differences between the two cases.

[NorthHawk]

Didn't Watson get an 11 game suspension? Kraft got nothing relatively speaking other than public embarrassment.
They were pretty much the same thing other than Watson was using an accredited Massage Therapist and Kraft was in a seedy joint that happened to be under surveillance.
So it's quite possible they could suspend Tucker as he was an employee of the NFL at that time but it all depends on the findings of the NFL investigators.

[River Dog]

Didn't Watson get an 11 game suspension? Kraft got nothing relatively speaking other than public embarrassment.
They were pretty much the same thing other than Watson was using an accredited Massage Therapist and Kraft was in a seedy joint that happened to be under surveillance.
So it's quite possible they could suspend Tucker as he was an employee of the NFL at that time but it all depends on the findings of the NFL investigators.

No, they (Watson and Kraft) weren't the same thing.

Watson had 10 criminal complaints for sexual assault filed against him, and 23 women filed civil suits against him. They took the criminal complaints to two grand juries, both deciding that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with charges. Watson settled the civil suits out of court for an amount estimated between $1.5-$2.5 million.

Kraft was originally charged with soliciting prostitution, a misdemeanor, but the charges were dropped because of an issue with evidence collection as I recall. It was one incident between two consenting adults.

Tucker's appears a lot more serious than Kraft's, but not in the same league with Watson's, not by a long shot. But it's still going to create an issue for the league. The public lives off of 15 second sound bites, and all they'll hear is massage parlor and will wonder why Tucker was treated differently than Watson, not bothering to look at the facts.

[NorthHawk]

All 3 are putting the NFL in a bad light yet only Watson was punished and the Owners who are supposed to be held to a higher standard of conduct get off scot free.
From my perspective in these cases the crime isn't the issue, it's the punishment and if it's meted out fairly. The civil or criminal cases will take care of themselves but the NFL handles the punishment for the teams.

[River Dog]

All 3 are putting the NFL in a bad light yet only Watson was punished and the Owners who are supposed to be held to a higher standard of conduct get off scot free.
From my perspective in these cases the crime isn't the issue, it's the punishment and if it's meted out fairly. The civil or criminal cases will take care of themselves but the NFL handles the punishment for the teams.

I agree that Kraft should have received some form of punishment in that he put the league in a bad light. But his case isn't even remotely comparable to Watsons except that it involved sexual acts at massage parlors. If you want to be fair, you have to put Kraft and Watson on a balance beam scale and see which way it tips and by how much and act accordingly. The way I see it, Kraft's side of the scale weighs about 10 pounds whereas Watson's weighs 250.

We'll see where this Tucker thing goes. I'm sure that the league will conduct their own investigation. There are 6 accusers from 4 different spas, so that alone tells us that he likely did something inappropriate to make them upset enough to come forward and accuse him. If Tucker is innocent, then he needs to get with his lawyer pronto.

[River Dog]

Back to the Tucker story.

More accusors have surfaced, and with more detail:

Ravens kicker Justin Tucker faces more allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior, as three additional massage therapists have accused him of misconduct, The Baltimore Banner reported Saturday.

In total, nine massage therapists in the Baltimore area have accused Tucker of inappropriate behavior. All the incidents reportedly occurred from 2012 to 2016, which were Tucker's first five seasons in the NFL.

In the latest accusations, one woman produced what she said was an internal report from 2015 about her experiences with Tucker. She told the Banner that Tucker stroked her inner thigh during a massage, would expose himself, and left what she believed to be ejaculate on the table.

She had reached out to a reporter about her allegations in 2015 but didn't continue over fears of retaliation.

The latest allegations come from three massage therapists who worked at the same downtown Baltimore men's spa. Through an attorney, the owner of the spa told the Banner that he was unaware of any complaints against Tucker.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/436 ... therapists

[NorthHawk]

I heard a comment that the Ravens, after the Ray Rice incident, have instituted a no tolerance policy so they expect him to be cut or traded. They also said that up to last year he was the most accurate kicker in NFL history but this past year his accuracy fell to just 71% and they wondered if he knew this was coming up early in the year or the previous summer.

[River Dog]

I heard a comment that the Ravens, after the Ray Rice incident, have instituted a no tolerance policy so they expect him to be cut or traded. They also said that up to last year he was the most accurate kicker in NFL history but this past year his accuracy fell to just 71% and they wondered if he knew this was coming up early in the year or the previous summer.

Yeah, I heard those rumors, too. But supposedly, this stuff has been floating around for some time, so unless he knew this article was coming out, it would seem unlikely that it would have affected his play this season.

The other thing that could be in play here is that as you indicated, Tucker was the most accurate kicker in NFL history, which would have put him in line for the HOF.

[River Dog]

Apparently, following the Ray Rice incident, the one that instigated the league's current code of conduct policy where he was caught on camera beating up his girlfriend, the Ravens established a zero-tolerance policy regarding this kind of behavior. The Raven's decision has been made easier because Tucker had his worst season as a kicker, so I would fully expect to see them wave bye-bye.

[c_hawkbob]

Reading through this (which I haven't done much because JT is of no interest to me) I gotta say Riv, you're making the mistake of assuming "Massage Therapist" and "Masseuse" are interchangeable. They are not.

It takes two years of college to become a massage therapist, every major sports team employs them, every health spa I've been a member of, most rehab facilities and hospitals have massage therapists, and you're doing a disservice to every one of them (including my daughter) with your archaic, misogynistic interpretations. A masseuse can be what your mind goes to when you think massage therapist, or a lesser trained legitimate masseuse, but ain't no one going to college for 2 years to be a prostitute. The girls working in, either voluntarily of by coerced trafficking, your "rub and tug" outfits are no massage therapists.

[River Dog]

Reading through this (which I haven't done much because JT is of no interest to me) I gotta say Riv, you're making the mistake of assuming "Massage Therapist" and "Masseuse" are interchangeable. They are not.

It takes two years of college to become a massage therapist, every major sports team employs them, every health spa I've been a member of, most rehab facilities and hospitals have massage therapists, and you're doing a disservice to every one of them (including my daughter) with your archaic, misogynistic interpretations. A masseuse can be what your mind goes to when you think massage therapist, or a lesser trained legitimate masseuse, but ain't no one going to college for 2 years to be a prostitute. The girls working in, either voluntarily of by coerced trafficking, your "rub and tug" outfits are no massage therapists.

I understand the differences, but I appreciate you bringing it up. I guess I'm not sure how to refer to an unlicensed therapist found in the rub-and-tug joints. Any suggestions?

As you'd expect, the requirements to be a licensed massage therapist vary from state to state. But spas and massage businesses do not necessarily have to employ licensed therapists.

Here in WA, whether they have to employ licensed therapists depends on how the business describes itself. If they just say "massage", then they're probably good and can employ virtually any adult. But if they use terms in their advertising that implies certain techniques or methods, like reflexology, neuromuscular, deep tissue, etc, then they have to use only licensed therapists.

There are also differences in various cities and counties in how they get their business licenses. Supposedly, my hometown in Kennewick, WA, is now requiring that all massage spas use only licensed therapists.

Like all forms of prostitution, it's very difficult for LE to bust the places for promoting it or the women practicing it. About the only way they can do it is to mount an undercover investigation, or vice squad, and the understaffed police departments have bigger fish to fry besides chasing after victimless misdemeanor crimes between two consenting adults. What will light a fire under them is if human trafficking is involved, which is often times the case at these rub-and-tug joints. That's what happened to Robert Kraft. He happened to walk in on a sting operation involving human trafficking.

[River Dog]

Reading through this (which I haven't done much because JT is of no interest to me) I gotta say Riv, you're making the mistake of assuming "Massage Therapist" and "Masseuse" are interchangeable. They are not.

It takes two years of college to become a massage therapist, every major sports team employs them, every health spa I've been a member of, most rehab facilities and hospitals have massage therapists, and you're doing a disservice to every one of them (including my daughter) with your archaic, misogynistic interpretations. A masseuse can be what your mind goes to when you think massage therapist, or a lesser trained legitimate masseuse, but ain't no one going to college for 2 years to be a prostitute. The girls working in, either voluntarily of by coerced trafficking, your "rub and tug" outfits are no massage therapists.

One other thing that I thought deserves a separate response. I sincerely apologize if I offended you and/or your daughter with my comments. It certainly wasn't my intent. But I'm not making this stuff up. There are A LOT of massage/spa businesses in this country parlors that are nothing more than a front for prostitution. From the DOJ website:

According to the US Department of Justice, there are an estimated 7,500-9,000 illegitimate massage businesses in the United Sates:

There are an estimated 7,500 to 9,000 illicit massage businesses (IMBs) currently in operation in the United States. IMBs are a venue that use the cover of a legitimate bodywork or massage business to provide commercial sex acts to a customer base of sex buyers. Many of the IMBs nationwide are at risk for engaging of human trafficking. These commercial-front brothels can include businesses claiming to provide massage, spas, reflexology, foot massage, bodywork, and modeling.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/page/fi ... /dl?inline

There are roughly 30,000 spas/massage businesses operating in the US. That means that 1 in 3 or 4 are illicit. Now that doesn't qualify as "most" in my "many if not most" statement, so I'll take that part back. I was speaking off the cuff, not knowing the specifics. But 1 in 3 or 4, 7500-9000 is one heck of a chunk of the industry.

[Aseahawkfan]

Damn. That is a crazy amount. I wonder how many marriages they have ruined or how many men become addicted.

[River Dog]

Damn. That is a crazy amount. I wonder how many marriages they have ruined or how many men become addicted.

It really didn't surprise me once I started browsing through these adult websites when my brother had his thing going on. The Seattle area must have at least 50. I'd post links to the websites, but it would be an obvious violation of our forum rules.

About 1.5 years ago, they shut down 6 spas in Kennewick, 4 of which were performing sex acts. No one was arrested, but they said that the state DOH was involved, which means unlicensed therapists as they're the agency which issues the licenses.

KENNEWICK, Wash.- Six Kennewick massage parlors were shut down on Tuesday, May 16 (2023) for criminal activity and licensing violations.

According to the KPD the closures were the result of a months-long investigation initiated after the Department received complaints about the businesses.

All six of the businesses checked were closed for non-compliance of licensing requirements according to the KPD, and four were found to be offering sexual services.

According to the KPD, Joy Spa, Shangri La Massage, Dream Spa, VIP Massage, Fragrant Oil Spa and Royal Massage were all shut down.

https://www.nbcrightnow.com/news/six-ma ... 92d48.html

4 rub-and tugs. And that's just in Kennewick, a city of 85,000.

[River Dog]

It's getting to look more and more like a repeat of Deshaun Watson. 7 more women have accused Tucker of 'sexual misconduct, bringing the total to 16':

OWINGS MILLS, Md. -- Seven more women have accused Baltimore Ravens kicker Justin Tucker of engaging in sexually inappropriate misconduct at high-end spas, the Baltimore Banner reported Sunday.

This increases the total to 16 therapists from eight spas to make allegations of inappropriate behavior by Tucker. All of the incidents reportedly occurred during sessions from 2012 to 2016, which were Tucker's first five seasons in the NFL.

In the latest allegations, one woman told the Banner that Tucker left what she believed to be ejaculate on the table and another said he made intense eye contact throughout the massage while exposed.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/438 ... misconduct

But there are significant differences between Watson's case and Tucker's. Sexual misconduct is not a felony, and Tucker has not been charged with a crime, felony or otherwise. There is still just one singular source of information, the Baltimore Banner. Watson was charged twice for sexual assault, a felony, both times making it to a grand jury before the case was dropped. He eventually settled over 20 civil cases out of court. And, one has to consider the amount of time that has elapsed between the alleged acts supposedly occurred and when the accusations were lodged.

It will be interesting to see how the league handles this. Watson received an 11-game suspension, and as noted above, Tucker's case is far less impactful. I suspect that he'll get a least a couple game suspension as it's becoming more clearer that he was behaving badly at the very least.