Let's talk about John Schneider

[Irish Greg 2.0]

Where are you guys at with our GM? I...think he is very overrated.

My opinion - he has been living off of the early years success with Pete, and honestly I think a lot of that early lightning strike was Pete's doing. Schneider's continual criminal negligence with the offensive line, specifically guards, is ridiculous. I heard the other day we are only spending $23 million on our entire starting OL this season. You are more likely to see the real Santa Claus than a Seahawks offensive linemen get selected All Pro.

There have been terrible drafts and misses, knee jerk panic trades, questionable FA signings and extensions. Now, to be fair, I don't ever fault him for trying - but it hasn't worked.

The franchise has 3playoff wins since the 2015 season. The Super Bowl Championship was 12 seasons ago. They haven't been back to a title game since the 2014 season. Now, I am not saying those things are the measure of a successful franchise, but it does indicate the cupboards being a little bare. Post-season successes are becoming a faded memory.

I watch a lot of NFL football, and there is still a sizable talent gap between the Seahawks roster and the upper tier. We just seem to be missing a lot of upper crust NFL talent, and that's all on the GM. I know Pete seemed to have lost the magic touch with his players the last few seasons, and also made a few terrible choices for coordinators. But, I am wondering if Schneider will be on the hot seat now, too?

[River Dog]

Where are you guys at with our GM? I...think he is very overrated.

My opinion - he has been living off of the early years success with Pete, and honestly I think a lot of that early lightning strike was Pete's doing. Schneider's continual criminal negligence with the offensive line, specifically guards, is ridiculous. I heard the other day we are only spending $23 million on our entire starting OL this season. You are more likely to see the real Santa Claus than a Seahawks offensive linemen get selected All Pro.

There have been terrible drafts and misses, knee jerk panic trades, questionable FA signings and extensions. Now, to be fair, I don't ever fault him for trying - but it hasn't worked.

The franchise has 3playoff wins since the 2015 season. The Super Bowl Championship was 12 seasons ago. They haven't been back to a title game since the 2014 season. Now, I am not saying those things are the measure of a successful franchise, but it does indicate the cupboards being a little bare. Post-season successes are becoming a faded memory.

I watch a lot of NFL football, and there is still a sizable talent gap between the Seahawks roster and the upper tier. We just seem to be missing a lot of upper crust NFL talent, and that's all on the GM. I know Pete seemed to have lost the magic touch with his players the last few seasons, and also made a few terrible choices for coordinators. But, I am wondering if Schneider will be on the hot seat now, too?

I agree that the success of our early years has more to do with Pete than it does Schneider. Pete had a lot of insights into the first 2-3 draft classes as he was so close to the college game having been the HC at USC for nine years, although we do have to give JS credit for the drafting of Russell Wilson. The further Pete got away from the colleges, the worse our drafts got.

But I don't know how much of the past 7-8 years we can hang on John and how much is Pete's doing. Since Pete was the boss, I tend to lay a little more blame on him than I do Schneider. Certainly, the big block buster trades, ie Harvin, Graham, and Adams, has to have been mostly Pete's doing. I can't imagine a control freak like Pete being talked into big moves like those by a subordinate.

I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude towards JS and will give him a year or two before I start passing judgement. Heck, we haven't even seen the results of his first draft without Pete breathing down his neck.

[Aseahawkfan]

I find it difficult to separate Schneider from Pete. Pete was a very data driven head coach who believed in specific metrics. I don't know how much Schneider and he share similar opinions on personnel.

Reading on the duo over the years, the following seemed to be true:

1. Pete had a specific view of what he was looking for in a player at a specific position. Like big, long, physical DBs. He wanted a tall, rangy, fast receiver.

2. Pete did not value interior of the lines. He may not have put much value on the entire O-line thinking he could just continue to draft O-line, keep that unit cheap, and spend money in other areas. Though we did spend some higher picks on tackles, especially LT.

3. Pete greatly valued RBs. He wanted a run game and we drafted a lot of RBs to try to maintain a strong run game.

4. Pete valued secondary on the defense and pass rushers. He was fairly good at picking secondary and not so good at picking pass rushers even though we spent a lot of high picks on pass rushers.

5. Schneider seemed to be more of a QB guy. That may be his Green Bay teachings. A Schneider quote I always remember is, "The head coach and QB are the two most important people on a team." Other players may not like it, but I tend to agree. You set those two positions up well and you will usually have a lot of success.

6. There seemed to be a reliance on the SPARQ score. I remember we have a drafted a lot of high SPARQ players. This is a metric developed to measure athleticism. Apparently we put a lot of relevance in the athleticism of drafted players, often over production meaning Pete and John seemed to be looking for athletic freaks they were confident they could develop versus polished and productive players with maybe less athleticism. I think this led to some spectacular misses.

Since I'm not sure what a John team looks like absent Pete, I'm willing to give John a few drafts to see what he values on his own. This current team is still a Pete team filled with Pete players. This was the first draft where John drafted without someone being able to over-ride him or influence him using a system John oversees. I have to see the next few drafts under John and his overall team management absent Pete before I decide.

If John can't show marked improvement from the past few years, then I guess we'll have our answer. I'm in wait and see mode for the moment.

[NorthHawk]

Yah, we don’t have a lot of separation from Pete yet,

But as the team stands today we seem to have some very good talent in players like DK, JSN, K9, Spoon, and I would add Murphy and maybe Mafe, Lockett, and possibly Nwosu(sp).
There might be one or two more but after that there is a big drop off and we seem to be missing the solid players that are what I think of as the mortar. Solid players that rarely make mistakes. It’s mostly noticeable along the OL from what I see.

[NorthHawk]

Another thing that's been going through my head is who are the leaders on this team?
We knew who it was during the LoB years on both sides, but it doesn't seem obvious who those players are today.

[Irish Greg 2.0]

Another thing that's been going through my head is who are the leaders on this team?
We knew who it was during the LoB years on both sides, but it doesn't seem obvious who those players are today.

A good point. We don't really have any.

Geno "tries" to be, but I don't think he is a natural. Leonard Williams could be, but doesn't seem vocal enough.

KP isn't really the type. DK is too immature. Lockett is pretty passive.

Jarran Reed? Pharaoh Brown?

[River Dog]

Another thing that's been going through my head is who are the leaders on this team?
We knew who it was during the LoB years on both sides, but it doesn't seem obvious who those players are today.

That's a good question. For years, Bobby was the obvious leader as he was an experienced veteran and the Mike that called the plays. Not sure who that guy would be now. Julian Love maybe?

On offense, Geno isn't really leader material, or at least not from what I've seen out of him. He's not the palm slapping, go get'em inspirational type. We also don't have a lot of experience on the OL. Conner Williams could be that guy, but If I had to guess, Lockett would be my choice for offense.

I see it much as IG sees it, that one hasn't really risen yet on either side of the ball.

[NorthHawk]

Lockett doesn’t strike me as a leader type. Maybe one of the younger players that don’t yet think they have the respect of the others might step up, but as yet it’s not apparent who that might be. At least not to me.

[River Dog]

Lockett doesn’t strike me as a leader type. Maybe one of the younger players that don’t yet think they have the respect of the others might step up, but as yet it’s not apparent who that might be. At least not to me.

I agree. Lockett seems to be more the lead-by-example type, not very vocal. But he is the most experience and most accomplished player on the offense if not the entire team, so that alone gives him the credibility necessary to be a team leader, which is why I mentioned him.

We're on a three-game losing streak which could very easily turn into a 5-game skid until we face a team we'd be favored in. The team desperately needs some leadership, and at this point, I just don't see anyone stepping forward.

[Aseahawkfan]

That is interesting no one has stepped up as the team leaders. We always knew the leaders under Pete and had a lot of strong personalities in our best years. Kam led the Legion and often the defense. Russ was the leader on offense. Special teams changed by year, but always voted in a leader. Do they even vote in team leaders any longer?

[River Dog]

That is interesting no one has stepped up as the team leaders. We always knew the leaders under Pete and had a lot of strong personalities in our best years. Kam led the Legion and often the defense. Russ was the leader on offense. Special teams changed by year, but always voted in a leader. Do they even vote in team leaders any longer?

Kam held out with three years left on a deal that was at the top for his position. Not sure that's a great leader. IMO Sherman, Bobby, and Earl were more the defensive leaders of the LOB.

On offense, I can't remember the guy's name, just his nickname, ie the Mad Russian, a right tackle who was good but not great. It seems to me that he was one of the leaders of the offensive line if not the offense itself. Russell wasn't really a team leader at that time. Remember the "not black enough" rumors?

[Aseahawkfan]

Kam held out with three years left on a deal that was at the top for his position. Not sure that's a great leader. IMO Sherman, Bobby, and Earl were more the defensive leaders of the LOB.

On offense, I can't remember the guy's name, just his nickname, ie the Mad Russian, a right tackle who was good but not great. It seems to me that he was one of the leaders of the offensive line if not the offense itself. Russell wasn't really a team leader at that time. Remember the "not black enough" rumors?

The entire group said Kam was the leader. I think Kam was voted leader of the defense a few times. Kam was a highly respected member of the team regardless of what you think of his contract holdout. https://www.seahawks.com/news/a-great-football-player-and-leader-in-our-program-kam-chancellor-left-an-impress I didn't bring him up because of my personal preference, I brought Kam up because the team viewed him as a team leader as did the head coach.

Russell was still voted team leader regardless of the rumors.

On September 5, 2017, Wilson was voted Seahawks offensive captain for the fifth consecutive season

. Pulled from Wiki.

Special teams rotated players a lot, so that changed more often as far as team captain.

We had very clear leaders during that run. They are not very clear now.

Not sure if this is a coaching thing. Maybe Pete highly encouraged team leaders and accountability, but Mike MacDonald comes from a coaching tree that doesn't view team leadership the same way. I can't say for sure.

[NorthHawk]

Luke Wilson said that Unger was an Offensive Captain when he was traded. I think he was more of a leader than Breno Giacomini who often set the tone on game day. The OL hasn’t recovered from that trade yet.

[Stream Hawk]

The Unger trade clearly began the demise of this team. I do think they needed better talent in the WR room at the time, but they went the worst route possible. We lost the toughness/leadership of Unger and got soft with Jimmy Graham.

As for leadership today? Geno should be one by default. And I think the offense generally sees him that way. But the problem is he is also too immature. And wears his emotions on his sleeve. I was thinking maybe AJ Barner could turn into one on offense. I have no idea about his personality, just that he seems tough and from a great program. Spoon should assume that role on defense.

Damn, this team needs a win on Sunday!

[4XPIPS]

Just speaking of this season alone, the head scratcher for me is the Michael Jackson trade. Obviously no one has a crystal ball, and the depth we had at Corner was pretty decent at the time of the trade, until now. The trade bugs me because Michael Jackson was a decent corner, probably not a full time starter but a definite reserve corner, and was a pretty solid tackler. We traded Michael Jackson for Michael Barret, and the we end up releasing Barret and not even resigning him to the PS. So we basically we got nothing for Michael Jackson. We probably could have used him once all of our DBs were going down with injuries.

[NorthHawk]

It’s an odd thing in sports that when a team trades away a position of depth then injuries occur turning it into a need.
It’s weird but seems to happen a lot.

[Aseahawkfan]

It’s an odd thing in sports that when a team trades away a position of depth then injuries occur turning it into a need.
It’s weird but seems to happen a lot.

I really want a good LB next draft. Some hard hitting run killer.

[4XPIPS]

I really want a good LB next draft. Some hard hitting run killer.

Keep an eye on these 3 guys for next years 2025 Draft

Harold Perkins Jr 6-1 225 lbs, 40 yard 4.45 LSU

Jalon Walker 6-2 245 lbs, 40 yard 4.50 Georgia

Barrett Carter 6-1 230 lbs 40 yard 4.55 Clemson

Anyone of these guys would be a massive upgrade, and have an impact right away. Jalon Walker lines up a lot on the edge for GA at times as well as play on the inside, because Smael Mondon Jr is also projected to be a top ILB choice for GA. So Jalon could be an inside or play edge. I prefer Barret Carter of all of them. I like the way he speaks, and his leadership skills at Clemson. I would be content if the Hawks made a move for any of these guys next year.

[Aseahawkfan]

Keep an eye on these 3 guys for next years 2025 Draft

Harold Perkins Jr 6-1 225 lbs, 40 yard 4.45 LSU

Jalon Walker 6-2 245 lbs, 40 yard 4.50 Georgia

Barrett Carter 6-1 230 lbs 40 yard 4.55 Clemson

Anyone of these guys would be a massive upgrade, and have an impact right away. Jalon Walker lines up a lot on the edge for GA at times as well as play on the inside, because Smael Mondon Jr is also projected to be a top ILB choice for GA. So Jalon could be an inside or play edge. I prefer Barret Carter of all of them. I like the way he speaks, and his leadership skills at Clemson. I would be content if the Hawks made a move for any of these guys next year.

If they are good, I will be happy. I want another speedy, hole hitting run crusher ILB to lead the defense. D-line can only do so much if the hat on hat between the lines leaves the hole open and the RB goes through and the LBs don't crush them before they get some good yardage.

[NorthHawk]

If there is a speedy hole hitting run stopping ILB in the draft he will probably be a top 10 pick. Most LBs these days are OLBs so the ILB's are usually slower run stuffers.
There are some exceptions, but every team is looking for them, just like they are looking for dominating Guards and top Centers (except Seattle of course).

[4XPIPS]

If there is a speedy hole hitting run stopping ILB in the draft he will probably be a top 10 pick. Most LBs these days are OLBs so the ILB's are usually slower run stuffers.
There are some exceptions, but every team is looking for them, just like they are looking for dominating Guards and top Centers (except Seattle of course).

It seems to me that scouts value Edge type LBs higher than Inside LBS, the "Field General Types" which aren't as speedy. There is a shift in body type for ILBs, as we can see they are getting much more slimmer and lighter. Long gone are the days of the bulky/husky lower center of gravity ILBs, remember Levon Kirkland at ILB, 6-1 270 lbs! I think the Hawk's Defense needs that fiery defensive leader. Other than Reed mouthin off as a veteran stepping up, who would it really be for our current defense? I don't think anyone can really say for sure who is a true defensive leader is right now, Love, Spoon, Williams?

[NorthHawk]

Players gravitate towards the Edge rusher/OLB position over the ILB because of the money in both College and the NFL. I think the NIL is making it worse at the moment but for special players (like a Ray Lewis type) it would be an exception.
The problem is those dominating ILBs are becoming fewer all the time so now we have DCs trying to use different schemes to get around it.

[Old but Slow]

I would give John one more draft, to see if has addressed the O-line. I want to see at least 2 first or second day picks at G/T, and an additional pure T. Some teams seem to have success converting college tackles into guards, especially if they lack maybe a little length, short arms, or do not have good kick step. Aggressive, smart, and balanced.

John can be excused if does not take a QB, unless he takes one in day 3, which would be justified.
















gG

[NorthHawk]

I would give John one more draft, to see if has addressed the O-line. I want to see at least 2 first or second day picks at G/T, and an additional pure T. Some teams seem to have success converting college tackles into guards, especially if they lack maybe a little length, short arms, or do not have good kick step. Aggressive, smart, and balanced.

John can be excused if does not take a QB, unless he takes one in day 3, which would be justified.


I like what the Steelers did the last few years getting a starting Center, OT, and Guard. They focused on players that fit their identity even in FA where they went after players early instead of bottom feeding.
There are a couple of Guards in this draft and also a couple of Centers that should go where we will probably draft. I'm not sure we will take one, though and am getting pretty jaded about their ability or desire to build a good OL.













gG

[Oly]

For the first time ever, after the Rams game, I am ready to move on from JS. We lost because of our shitty line. Full stop. And that's not only his Achilles Heel in scouting, but also he is on record as devaluing the line. I'm not confident he's the guy to fix it and so it's time for a change.

[NorthHawk]

For the first time ever, after the Rams game, I am ready to move on from JS. We lost because of our shitty line. Full stop. And that's not only his Achilles Heel in scouting, but also he is on record as devaluing the line. I'm not confident he's the guy to fix it and so it's time for a change.

I’m starting to trend in that direction, too but would a different GM want to blow everything up because he’s not on board with the existing coaching staff? I still have hope for this group but they are going to have to really take a hard look at player scheme fits and culture builders for whatever identity they want to achieve along with building a proper OL.

[Aseahawkfan]

I still think Schneider deserves a few years on his own. We all know Pete had final say on drafts and ran the show before he left. Schneider deserves a real shot to build a team his way before we give up on him. He earned that shot by taking a subordinate position to the head coach for years while fully supporting Pete and helping build our amazing Super Bowl team. He may not succeed and we may find John had the blind spot for O-line and not Pete, who knows. But I think he should get the shot for a few years.

John is working with a new head coach to build a team. That isn't a one year endeavor. Wanting to move on in a single year when John hasn't even had the chance to build a team his way with Mike MacDonald's input is way too quick to pull the trigger on a GM that has been loyal to this team, took a subordinate position for years to the head coach, and wants a real shot to build a team in Seattle that he is the architect of from the head coach down.

Give John time and let him earn success or failure after a few years and a real shot at building the team.

That's how I see it. I want to see John fully separated from Pete for a few years before I make a decision. I really think John deserves his chance. A real chance, not a knee jerk reaction after a bad first year.

[NorthHawk]

I still think Schneider deserves a few years on his own. We all know Pete had final say on drafts and ran the show before he left. Schneider deserves a real shot to build a team his way before we give up on him. He earned that shot by taking a subordinate position to the head coach for years while fully supporting Pete and helping build our amazing Super Bowl team. He may not succeed and we may find John had the blind spot for O-line and not Pete, who knows. But I think he should get the shot for a few years.

John is working with a new head coach to build a team. That isn't a one year endeavor. Wanting to move on in a single year when John hasn't even had the chance to build a team his way with Mike MacDonald's input is way too quick to pull the trigger on a GM that has been loyal to this team, took a subordinate position for years to the head coach, and wants a real shot to build a team in Seattle that he is the architect of from the head coach down.

Give John time and let him earn success or failure after a few years and a real shot at building the team.

That's how I see it. I want to see John fully separated from Pete for a few years before I make a decision. I really think John deserves his chance. A real chance, not a knee jerk reaction after a bad first year.

Fair enough but if the OL isn't seriously addressed this off season then I think we can assume it never will be and there should be a serious consideration to making a change.

[Oly]

I’m starting to trend in that direction, too but would a different GM want to blow everything up because he’s not on board with the existing coaching staff?

I still think Schneider deserves a few years on his own. We all know Pete had final say on drafts and ran the show before he left. Schneider deserves a real shot to build a team his way before we give up on him. He earned that shot by taking a subordinate position to the head coach for years while fully supporting Pete and helping build our amazing Super Bowl team. He may not succeed and we may find John had the blind spot for O-line and not Pete, who knows. But I think he should get the shot for a few years.

John is working with a new head coach to build a team. That isn't a one year endeavor. Wanting to move on in a single year when John hasn't even had the chance to build a team his way with Mike MacDonald's input is way too quick to pull the trigger on a GM that has been loyal to this team, took a subordinate position for years to the head coach, and wants a real shot to build a team in Seattle that he is the architect of from the head coach down.

Give John time and let him earn success or failure after a few years and a real shot at building the team.

That's how I see it. I want to see John fully separated from Pete for a few years before I make a decision. I really think John deserves his chance. A real chance, not a knee jerk reaction after a bad first year.

Good points, both. I do think Macdonald was the right hire, and if making his tenure work means keeping JS, then I suppose it's worth it. But I certainly don't have faith in JS right now.

[NorthHawk]

The 2 biggest problems in the last decade have been the OL and Pass Rush. Neither were sufficiently addressed in that time.
Pete had a big say in it, but JS seemed pretty willing to go along with not addressing the needs in the trenches.

[River Dog]

The 2 biggest problems in the last decade have been the OL and Pass Rush. Neither were sufficiently addressed in that time.
Pete had a big say in it, but JS seemed pretty willing to go along with not addressing the needs in the trenches.

Pete didn't just have a big say, he had the final say. Since Pete insisted as part of his accepting the job that he had authority over the GM, I think it's fair to assume that he would have wielded that power quite often.

[NorthHawk]

Quite possibly.
But if JS had said we can't win with an inadequate OL, it would have probably made a difference. To me it sounds more like they were on the same page and it's also possible that JS convinced Carroll that they could still win with that philosophy.

[Aseahawkfan]

Quite possibly.
But if JS had said we can't win with an inadequate OL, it would have probably made a difference. To me it sounds more like they were on the same page and it's also possible that JS convinced Carroll that they could still win with that philosophy.

Our management is notoriously secretive. A little information from the locker room slips here and there, but John and Pete were two of the most close to the vest head coach's and GM's out there. Pete would talk a lot without saying anything particularly substantial. John is really careful when speaking. John definitely wasn't going to show any public disagreement with Pete on drafting philosophy and vice versa with Pete.

This last draft is the first draft without Pete. We only had so many picks and we had more holes than we had picks. Which is why I think we do have a low talent base myself and especially low at certain positions like LB and interior O-line on top of our quality RT candidate not doing so well due to health issues that don't seem to be clearing up. Abe Lucas is a bust at this point and only him coming back and playing for years healthy is going to change that, which looks unlikely. Lucas isn't a talent bust as he was good when he played, but he's lookin to be an injury bust.

It's going to take John a bit to draft and build up the O-line. This was on top of also needing to rebuild the D-line, LBs, draft some new runners, and find a replacement for an aging Tyler Lockett, find new safeties after Jamal and Diggs busted, and rebuild the secondary which seems to finally have some cornerstone players, and he still has to find us a QB of the future.

I personally think we had a pretty bare cupboard myself and a low talent base. It shows in the fact that we have very few long-term players and very few we look at as must have guys for the future. It is going to take John and Mike Mac a while to rebuild this talent base, at least a few drafts and free agency periods.

This is year one of Mike MacDonald getting to know his players, install his scheme, and for him and John to map out needs and rate the talent they currently have to plan for future draft and free agency periods. I think Seattle fans should be looking at this year the same way and thinking about what we need to draft to make this all work. So far I think we're all pretty sure we need LB upgrades and interior line including a center as priority upgrades in the draft and offseason.

[NorthHawk]

They needed to start building the OL last year.
The Steelers made OL a priority and selected an OT and Center with their first two picks followed by a Guard in the 4th with their 7 picks. So an addition of talent was/is achievable. The OL has been bad for at least a decade so the new coaching staff would have known about this. Further concerning is not signing a good IOL in FA and choosing to continue bottom feeding to stock the positions.this continuous method of stocking the IOL has got us to where we are now.

I’m not confident that JS will change his ways considering his comments that he thought Guards were over drafted and over paid.

[Aseahawkfan]

They needed to start building the OL last year.
The Steelers made OL a priority and selected an OT and Center with their first two picks followed by a Guard in the 4th with their 7 picks. So an addition of talent was/is achievable. The OL has been bad for at least a decade so the new coaching staff would have known about this. Further concerning is not signing a good IOL in FA and choosing to continue bottom feeding to stock the positions.this continuous method of stocking the IOL has got us to where we are now.

I’m not confident that JS will change his ways considering his comments that he thought Guards were over drafted and over paid.

They drafted a 1st round tackle and a 3rd round tackle. So they have tried to address the O-line. Interior line has been a real blind spot. They have tried quite a bit to draft good tackles and failed to do so. Not like they didn't address the O-line the last two drafts.

2024: Christian Haynes 3rd round guard. Two other O-lineman.
2023: Anthony Bradford 4th round, 5th round Oluwatimi Center
2022: Cross 1st round pick, Lucas 3rd round pick,

They've spent draft capital on O-line. We had so many needs to fill due to the misses at other positions like D-line and trading away high picks for bust players like Jamal Adams, which looks worse and worse in hindsight.

I hope a young, hungry coach has better eye for talent than Pete in his later years and is more patient than Pete looking for some patch fix.

John has been drafting O-line. They aren't working out for some reason. Maybe John needs better O-line scouts. Not sure as I know the GM doesn't personally rate and draft talent at all positions. John takes a more personal interest in the QB position.

[TriCitySam]

Fairly certain that JS and his staff were doing draft evaluations, so in my opinion the failure to find the right talent is on his shoulders.

[NorthHawk]

They drafted a 1st round tackle and a 3rd round tackle. So they have tried to address the O-line. Interior line has been a real blind spot. They have tried quite a bit to draft good tackles and failed to do so. Not like they didn't address the O-line the last two drafts.

2024: Christian Haynes 3rd round guard. Two other O-lineman.
2023: Anthony Bradford 4th round, 5th round Oluwatimi Center
2022: Cross 1st round pick, Lucas 3rd round pick,

They've spent draft capital on O-line. We had so many needs to fill due to the misses at other positions like D-line and trading away high picks for bust players like Jamal Adams, which looks worse and worse in hindsight.

I hope a young, hungry coach has better eye for talent than Pete in his later years and is more patient than Pete looking for some patch fix.

John has been drafting O-line. They aren't working out for some reason. Maybe John needs better O-line scouts. Not sure as I know the GM doesn't personally rate and draft talent at all positions. John takes a more personal interest in the QB position.

Other teams have been able to find IOL with regularity. The Chiefs have rebuilt their OL twice in the last 5 years with success and we have not found a single Center in a decade. We've also not found any starting Guards worthy of contract extensions in that time period either. Lots of other teams have done the same thing as the Chiefs and just looking at the top teams they all have a strong OL and trench dominance as a major part of their success.
It seems what JS has done is taken a player along the OL, that player doesn't work out, then gives up and finds castoffs and cheap older veterans with minimal ability left in their tank and says it's the best he can do. It's been going on for too long and now the entire league is aware of it. So the pressure is on JS to get this fixed or I suspect we will have a GM change sooner than later.

[River Dog]

They drafted a 1st round tackle and a 3rd round tackle. So they have tried to address the O-line. Interior line has been a real blind spot. They have tried quite a bit to draft good tackles and failed to do so. Not like they didn't address the O-line the last two drafts.

2024: Christian Haynes 3rd round guard. Two other O-lineman.
2023: Anthony Bradford 4th round, 5th round Oluwatimi Center
2022: Cross 1st round pick, Lucas 3rd round pick,

They've spent draft capital on O-line. We had so many needs to fill due to the misses at other positions like D-line and trading away high picks for bust players like Jamal Adams, which looks worse and worse in hindsight.

I hope a young, hungry coach has better eye for talent than Pete in his later years and is more patient than Pete looking for some patch fix.

John has been drafting O-line. They aren't working out for some reason. Maybe John needs better O-line scouts. Not sure as I know the GM doesn't personally rate and draft talent at all positions. John takes a more personal interest in the QB position.

I haven't gone through the exercise lately, but a couple of years ago, I looked at all our draft choices by round, assigned a number for each round (ie 1 point for a first rounder, 2 for a 2nd rounder, and so on) then divided by the number of picks at each position to get an average round and OL finished way down the ladder with WR and RB at or near the top. Perhaps I should do that again to see if anything has changed over the past couple drafts.

[Aseahawkfan]

Other teams have been able to find IOL with regularity. The Chiefs have rebuilt their OL twice in the last 5 years with success and we have not found a single Center in a decade. We've also not found any starting Guards worthy of contract extensions in that time period either. Lots of other teams have done the same thing as the Chiefs and just looking at the top teams they all have a strong OL and trench dominance as a major part of their success.
It seems what JS has done is taken a player along the OL, that player doesn't work out, then gives up and finds castoffs and cheap older veterans with minimal ability left in their tank and says it's the best he can do. It's been going on for too long and now the entire league is aware of it. So the pressure is on JS to get this fixed or I suspect we will have a GM change sooner than later.

John has definitely sucked at building O-line. Is that Pete or John or bad scouts? If it is bad scouts, why hasn't John found better scouts? These are questions we would like to see answered. It's pretty bad when you don't value the center or guard position and all we spend on is tackles that have failed to earn second contracts. I freely admit it doesn't look great, but not sure John isn't trying and pretty sure Pete was the one who devalued O-line unless John was using some philosophy he read about or is common in the league. I have no idea which teams have great O-lines. Maybe Frisco and Detroit. Chiefs O-line may be better now, but they lost a Super Bowl due to a bad O-line when Mahomes was getting crushed due to bad tackles. So I'm not sure who is best.

It was sort of understandable back when Russ was in his prime as having a mobile QB let you devalue O-line. But not so much now.

[River Dog]

John has definitely sucked at building O-line. Is that Pete or John or bad scouts? If it is bad scouts, why hasn't John found better scouts? These are questions we would like to see answered. It's pretty bad when you don't value the center or guard position and all we spend on is tackles that have failed to earn second contracts. I freely admit it doesn't look great, but not sure John isn't trying and pretty sure Pete was the one who devalued O-line unless John was using some philosophy he read about or is common in the league. I have no idea which teams have great O-lines. Maybe Frisco and Detroit. Chiefs O-line may be better now, but they lost a Super Bowl due to a bad O-line when Mahomes was getting crushed due to bad tackles. So I'm not sure who is best.

It was sort of understandable back when Russ was in his prime as having a mobile QB let you devalue O-line. But not so much now.

I pretty much agree except for the part about Russell, at least not the Russell towards the end of his time with us. He held onto the ball so damn long that it put enormous stress on our offensive line, which by all of our estimates, was very suspect to say the least. You can cover for a poor offensive line if you're like Tom Brady or Drew Brees and consistently get the ball out in under 2.5 seconds, but not when you have a QB with a diminishing skill set who refuses to adjust.

I don't want to turn this thread into another Russell Wilson debate, so I'll not comment about his relationship with this subject any further.

At 29, Mahomes is still at the peak of his physical skills, but it won't be very many years before he, too, will have to start adjusting. The guy is insane now, though, obviously the best player in the game today.