OT: Pete Rose

[River Dog]

I realize that this is a baseball/OT topic and may be more appropriate for the OT forum in the obit thread, but there's such little activity in the main forum that I don't think anyone would mind, and it's obviously sports related.

Pete Rose died yesterday at the age of 83. Rose was arguably the most controversial HOF level personality to have taken to the diamond. He was the all-time hits leader, breaking what was once thought an unbreakable record, a seemingly slam dunk HOF candidate. But he got caught up in a betting scandal, violating one of the oldest rules in the game, a rule known by every player who has ever played, posted in dugouts and so on. As a coach, he not only bet on baseball, but he also bet on games his team was involved in then lied about it during the investigation. IMO the ban was well deserved.

There was good reason for the no betting on baseball rule. The game itself was nearly destroyed in the infamous Black Sox scandal of 1919, and a number of players, including a HOF-quality player by the name of Shoeless Joe Jackson, who received lifetime bans. My position on Rose's HOF candidacy has always been that I'm good with his admittance so long as they rescind the no betting on baseball rule and reinstate the eligibility of players like Jackson prior to any consideration of Rose.

But he was a great player, not an extraordinarily gifted athlete but rather succeeded through grit and determination. He attained a well-deserved nickname of Charlie Hustle, supposedly given to him by Yankees pitcher Whitey Ford, who mockingly called him that when as a rookie right fielder, Rose jumped up and tried to catch a home run hit by Mickey Mantle that was 100' over Rose's head and still rising.

RIP Pete Rose.

[NorthHawk]

It's ironic that gambling sites are now sponsoring Baseball and other sports games in a major way.

Considering the players that are in the HoF who had character flaws, I have always thought he should have been inducted years ago.
A great player who never took a play off who didn't get his due while alive.

[River Dog]

It's ironic that gambling sites are now sponsoring Baseball and other sports games in a major way.

Considering the players that are in the HoF who had character flaws, I have always thought he should have been inducted years ago.
A great player who never took a play off who didn't get his due while alive.

Other player's character flaws didn't break well understood rules of the game. Rose had full, complete knowledge of the rules and the consequences of breaking them. I have zero sympathy for him.

There are a number of players of HOF quality that although not formally banned, never broke a standing rule as Rose did that have essentially been black balled by MLB and the HOF committee, including Barry Bonds, Roger Clemmons, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, and others. IMO they have a much more compelling case for admission to the HOF than does Pete Rose.

[NorthHawk]

For me, the HoF is for play on the field and not outside activities. The respective H's oF for me should be separate from the league and celebrate the productivity on the field of play.
The steroid users? For me, that's making their performances on the field better than they otherwise would be and is cheating while others who played clean were overlooked or at least weren't as celebrated because of the steroids.
Rose bet on his own team to win. To me, that's far less egregious than artificially pumping up a players performance via artificial means. But that's just me.

[River Dog]

For me, the HoF is for play on the field and not outside activities. The respective H's oF for me should be separate from the league and celebrate the productivity on the field of play.
The steroid users? For me, that's making their performances on the field better than they otherwise would be and is cheating while others who played clean were overlooked or at least weren't as celebrated because of the steroids.
Rose bet on his own team to win. To me, that's far less egregious than artificially pumping up a players performance via artificial means. But that's just me.

It wasn't 'outside activities' that got Pete Rose into hot water. He bet on MLB games of which he was a direct part of, indeed one of if not the most influential person in the game, ie the manager. I don't consider that as being outside the realm of MLB in the same manner as a DUI or cheating on your taxes (a crime of which Rose was convicted of, BTW).

And it doesn't matter whether he bet on his team to win or not. Unless he bet the same amount on every single game, Rose could use his inside knowledge and ability as the manager to influence the game to his advantage as a gambler.

For example, he knew how the Reds scheduled starting pitcher had been performing in practice, he had exclusive knowledge of his health, etc., and could be selective in making a decision as to whether or not to lay down a bet and/or vary the amount of money he placed depending how much confidence he had in his team's chances of winning on that particular day. He could increase his team's chances of winning, say like in how he managed his bullpen, depending on whether or not he had money bet on the game or in a game he had planned on betting on the next day.

I agree with you about the steroid use, and I am not advocating that the HOF admit the aforementioned players. I was simply saying that their case was more compelling than Rose's as they did not break any standing rules of the time, nor have they been formally banned as Rose was.

And I do agree that both baseball and football are somewhat hypocritical by jumping in bed with the gambling industry in their pursuit of the almighty dollar yet making certain aspects of it off limits to their players.

[Aseahawkfan]

They have to be consistent with their discipline. Pete can't go in until they let anyone else banned for gambling in.

Great player. Fun to watch. He was part of the Big Red Machine. Fun name. I remember watching them when very young. They were must see baseball.

[River Dog]

They have to be consistent with their discipline. Pete can't go in until they let anyone else banned for gambling in.

Great player. Fun to watch. He was part of the Big Red Machine. Fun name. I remember watching them when very young. They were must see baseball.

Yep. In the World Series in which the Black Sox scandal occurred, Shoeless Joe Jackson got 19 hits, 1 home run, drove in 8 RBI's, batted .375, and accounted for 11 of the White Sox's 20 runs, yet he was banned for life at the peak of his career for supposedly throwing the series. No way in hell can they let Rose in before Jackson.

Pete Rose was a tough cookie. It didn't matter if his team was behind 10-0 with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. He'd be out there giving it his all. I was a huge fan of the Big Red Machine and can still name the starting lineup. Rose was the centerpiece, the heart and soul of the team.

Supposedly the way Rose got his nickname was when as a rookie and playing right field in a spring training game, Mickey Mantle hit a tape measure home run 100' above Rose's head and still rising yet Rose was jumping to the top of the wall in a laughable effort to catch it. When Mantle returned to the bench, teammate Whitey Ford said "Hey, Mick. Did you see ole Charlie Hustle trying to catch that ball?", and the nickname stuck. Rose liked it.

[Old but Slow]

My impression of Pete was "hot dog". In one of the first games I watched the Reds play, Rose was in left, and when a catchable ball came to his right, he slowed his pursuit so that he could make diving catch, and the announcers loved it. I was disgusted. And, then, there is his running hard to first when walked. WTF?

He was an amazing doubles hitter, so there is that, but he was a below average defensively and base running.

[River Dog]

My impression of Pete was "hot dog". In one of the first games I watched the Reds play, Rose was in left, and when a catchable ball came to his right, he slowed his pursuit so that he could make diving catch, and the announcers loved it. I was disgusted. And, then, there is his running hard to first when walked. WTF?

He was an amazing doubles hitter, so there is that, but he was a below average defensively and base running.

I wouldn't consider Pete Rose a below average defensive player. Below average fielders don't win Gold Gloves, and Rose won two of them as an outfielder. Amongst his peers, Rose recorded the highest fielding percentage for a right fielder at 99.14% and behind only Joe Rudi for fielding percentage for a left fielder at 99.07%. In addition to the outfield, Rose played 2nd base, 3rd base, and first base. You can't do that with every MLB player as each position requires different skills.

You're right, Rose wasn't a great base runner, especially when you compare him to some of his teammates, specifically Joe Morgan. He also wasn't a prolific home run hitter, either, never hitting more than 16 HR's in a season. But he was a very durable player as he was rarely injured and seldom took days off, one of the things about him that allowed him to surpass Ty Cobb in total hits. He had a consecutive games played streak of 678 games, which roughly equates to 4 straight years. He hit .300+ in 10 seasons.

As far as being a hot dog, meh. I never got that impression. But if he was, he wouldn't be the only one, nor would he be the worst. He didn't stand at the plate and stare in awe at a home run he hit like Reggie Jackson would do. But he never, ever loafed like Jackson would do occasionally.