Kiero Small

[Eaglehawk]

This guy looks like the real deal. At first I was not so impressed, then I did some research. Humm. This guy is a baller. Bring him in to compete. Then let the chips fall where they may. I'm fine with that.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... er=ya5nbcs

[Steady_Hawk]

Finally a guy Wilson won't have to look up to see! ;P

This guy absolutely fits this team and is a wrecking ball of a FB. I will be really disappointed if he doesn't stick around. Fingers crossed!

[PasadenaHawk]

Seemed like the runaway beer truck fit this team to a tee as well, didn't work out so good for him.

[c_hawkbob]

Dude is a whole lotta weight and muscle real low to the ground ... ever been charged by a boar?

[Bird Droppings]

Small is large at getting to the second level and taking out linebacksers ... probably better than Coleman or Ware at that task.

And he's considered a third and short back when talking about running, and capable of grabbing swing passes.

zoom

[briwas101]

I like coleman and am rooting for him, and I want to see more of Ware before giving up on him, so adding another fb to the mix wasn't high on my list of priorities but this guy Small will be given every chance to win the job through competition.

I know someone joked earlier about finally having somone that Russell doesnt have to look up to, but honestly that is probably one of the unique traits that made him draftable. If he is able to do all the things he is asked to do as a fb and he does them as well or better than anyone on the team AND he is short enough to not block one of the passing lanes that Russell needs if he's going to throw from the pocket then he fits the team perfectly and uniquely.

The question is if he can do those duties as well or better than coleman.

[PasadenaHawk]

I like Coleman for his story, but may the best man win!

[HumanCockroach]

How did I know someone would find a way to get "Russell's passing lanes" into this thread? LMFAO. A lane is an open space to the left or the right of other people, not some mythical lane above a blockers head, nor does Small's stature magically shorten the defender he happens to be blocking.

If he does the job better than Coleman ( and to be fair, I'm not sure how he could do worse than what Ware has done so far, since that is nothing) than he'll be the guy we roll with, of that I have little doubt.

And Birwas, it's been two years, time to let that go man. You've been proven wrong enough, so whatever bias you have about Wilson' s height has been played out. There is simply nothing new for you to cling to any longer on that score, find another drum to beat.

[briwas101]

How did I know someone would find a way to get "Russell's passing lanes" into this thread? LMFAO. A lane is an open space to the left or the right of other people, not some mythical lane above a blockers head, nor does Small's stature magically shorten the defender he happens to be blocking.

If he does the job better than Coleman ( and to be fair, I'm not sure how he could do worse than what Ware has done so far, since that is nothing) than he'll be the guy we roll with, of that I have little doubt.

And Birwas, it's been two years, time to let that go man. You've been proven wrong enough, so whatever bias you have about Wilson' s height has been played out. There is simply nothing new for you to cling to any longer on that score, find another drum to beat.

I've been proven wrong enough?
I've only been wrong about a few things in the last decade when it comes to the hawks, so no one on any of the message boards can even touch me, so im not sure what you're getting at.

As far as wilson, that was one of the maybe 5 things ive been wrong about in a decade, but I have been a fan of his since less than halfway through his rookie season. His jersey was the first football jersey I ever bought.

[briwas101]

How did I know someone would find a way to get "Russell's passing lanes" into this thread? LMFAO. A lane is an open space to the left or the right of other people, not some mythical lane above a blockers head, nor does Small's stature magically shorten the defender he happens to be blocking.

If he does the job better than Coleman ( and to be fair, I'm not sure how he could do worse than what Ware has done so far, since that is nothing) than he'll be the guy we roll with, of that I have little doubt.

And Birwas, it's been two years, time to let that go man. You've been proven wrong enough, so whatever bias you have about Wilson' s height has been played out. There is simply nothing new for you to cling to any longer on that score, find another drum to beat.

PS. I never said a passing lane is ABOVE someone's head, YOU just said that.

But a fb who is built like a leaner OL IS going to block the QB's view more than someone who is even shorter than the qb.

[PasadenaHawk]

I was able to watch some film on him and I was pretty impressed. He is a good blocker. He doesn't wait around for someone to rush the QB either, he looks for someone to hit. Seems pretty good at short yardage pick up and decent hands as well. So many times I saw him open holes but the running back chose not to follow him. That has got to be frustrating. I hope if he does make the team, the Hawks use him better than the Razorbacks did.

[HumanCockroach]

LMAO. Whatever Birwas, see you again with the "Wilson can't see from the pocket"comment another time or Carroll has to move the pocket, change the drops, or some other pointless claim to how short Wilson is. Remember well your claims on the PI, and the responses smacking down the height bias. Call me whatever you like tough guy, bothers me not in the least. SMFH.

[RiverDog]

There was a running back that I remembered that played for the Dolphins back in the early 70's named Don Nottingham, a.k.a. "The Human Bowling Ball", that as I recalled, had a frame about the same dimensions as this guy Small, but when I looked him up, Nottingham was 5'10", 210lbs, a far cry from Small's 5'8", 247. Man, talk about a 4x4.

I can't imagine this guy getting very significant playing time except perhaps on special teams. Can you imagine trying to take him out if you're on the kick or punt return team? With that low of a center of gravity, it would seem to take quite a bit more to knock this guy off balance.

[Zorn76]

How did I know someone would find a way to get "Russell's passing lanes" into this thread? LMFAO. A lane is an open space to the left or the right of other people, not some mythical lane above a blockers head, nor does Small's stature magically shorten the defender he happens to be blocking.

If he does the job better than Coleman ( and to be fair, I'm not sure how he could do worse than what Ware has done so far, since that is nothing) than he'll be the guy we roll with, of that I have little doubt.

And Birwas, it's been two years, time to let that go man. You've been proven wrong enough, so whatever bias you have about Wilson' s height has been played out. There is simply nothing new for you to cling to any longer on that score, find another drum to beat.

I've been proven wrong enough?
I've only been wrong about a few things in the last decade when it comes to the hawks, so no one on any of the message boards can even touch me, so im not sure what you're getting at.

As far as wilson, that was one of the maybe 5 things ive been wrong about in a decade, but I have been a fan of his since less than halfway through his rookie season. His jersey was the first football jersey I ever bought.

briwas101 - Dude, completely uncalled for there at the end. Wow.

[Eaglehawk]

Even I did not go there, in argument. Yes me, Eaglehawk. The epitomy of perfection.
And my name is West, I ain't in this mess.

[Eaglehawk]

There was a running back that I remembered that played for the Dolphins back in the early 70's named Don Nottingham, a.k.a. "The Human Bowling Ball", that as I recalled, had a frame about the same dimensions as this guy Small, but when I looked him up, Nottingham was 5'10", 210lbs, a far cry from Small's 5'8", 247. Man, talk about a 4x4.

I can't imagine this guy getting very significant playing time except perhaps on special teams. Can you imagine trying to take him out if you're on the kick or punt return team? With that low of a center of gravity, it would seem to take quite a bit more to knock this guy off balance.

Or if Lynch goes down. But yeah, this guy is the real deal. And that's the truth "straight way".

[yoder]

Briwas101, you need to tone it down. I'm all for differences of opinions, but personal attacks are completely uncalled for. The offensive language in your posts has been removed. Thanks for your cooperation.

[HumanCockroach]

Briwas101, you need to tone it down. I'm all for differences of opinions, but personal attacks are completely uncalled for. The offensive language in your posts has been removed. Thanks for your cooperation.

Ain't no thing Yoder, understand you need to do what you think is right, but I've been called worse, and I have a fairly thick skin.

[kalibane]

Anyone ever notice how disproportionately excited this particular internet community tends to get over the FB position?

[monkey]

Anyone ever notice how disproportionately excited this particular internet community tends to get over the FB position?

Well, to be fair, the Seahawks do have a rich history of having exceptional fullbacks, who become fan favorites because of their willingness to do the hard, dirty work.
It's sort of difficult to not get excited over the prospect of yet another potentially terrific fullback, who will help the running game by opening holes for another fan favorite, Marshawn Lynch.
It's the whole tough guy thing...Seahawks fans love it, and who can blame them?

[kalibane]

I don't know. Honestly seems kind of a hipster football fan angle. Even being one of the few teams that uses a FB still the FB is purely a package player who's impact on the field would be very limited. Even if Smalle (or Ware for that matter) is an upgrade over Coleman, who we know can do the job, the difference will be negligable.

The position just isn't that important. I mean I was bummed when Mike Rob was released but that was more about losing his contributions on Special Teams and his locker room presence.

[NorthHawk]

We're a run first team wanting to control the ball. Any blocking help is welcome considering our suspect OL.

[c_hawkbob]

Don't think I agree Kal, on two accounts;

1- Our run/pass ratio is still uniquely (in today's NFL) weighted toward the run side and as such the FB is still a bit more to us than purely a package player.

2- Your post seems to be unduly devaluing package players. This has become a specialist league. Our NASCAR package is not our base defense but is it any less valuable? The way Pete seeks out and maximizes unique players a great many of those players are going to be considered specialist ... compared to back in the day, who on the team besides the QB and the O-linemen truly are every down players anymore?

[RiverDog]

Don't think I agree Kal, on two accounts;

1- Our run/pass ratio is still uniquely (in today's NFL) weighted toward the run side and as such the FB is still a bit more to us than purely a package player.

2- Your post seems to be unduly devaluing package players. This has become a specialist league. Our NASCAR package is not our base defense but is it any less valuable? The way Pete seeks out and maximizes unique players a great many of those players are going to be considered specialist ... compared to back in the day, who on the team besides the QB and the O-linemen truly are every down players anymore?

I agree with Kal for the very reason you cite as your objection, ie that it is becoming a specialist league, which places a premium on those positions that are not subject to rotational substitutions, ie quarterbacks, offensive linemen, and the secondary, and less of a value on those that are part of a 'package', ie running backs, tight ends, and linebackers.

Speaking as a whole, yes, our packages are just as if not more valuable than our base, but that's not the point. The discussion is about the value of the individual player/position, not the value of package itself.

[kalibane]

I both agree and disagree. The FB is more valuable to the Seahawks than other teams but that's kind of the point. Even on a team where the FB is still used, it's still just a package position. I don't think bringing up the Nascar Package is really hitting the mark you're intending. It's not about the package it's about the position within the package. None of the defensive linemen in the Nascar Package only play in the Nascar package. And when they are out of the game it's not because their position on the field is useless for that package it's primarily to keep those players fresh.

Even for a team like the Seahawks who still run the ball more than throw and find that carrying a FB is worth two roster spots, there is a FB on the field only about 30% of the offensive snaps. Last year they never had a FB on the field more than 50% of the offensive snaps in any one game (48% was the max) and a FB was on the field for 20% or fewer snaps 5 times.

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks ... s-rushing/

Maybe I'm a wet blanket but getting excited about the impact a FB is going to have on the game is like getting excited for a LB who only plays in the nickel package, a #2 blocking TE or 1 technique tackle who plays only on run downs. But no one was excited about Kellen Davis (or even Anthony McCoy) even though they were brought in to basically fulfill the same role as a RB only out of a single back 2 TE set. There are never any threads about low round/undrafted defensive linemen unless people see them as a 3 technique that can penetrate and get after the QB. But consistently every time there is a new FB in town there is discussion about it here, whether it's Heath Evans, Owen Schmitt (How many people still have "Get Schmittfaced" TShirts?), Derrick Coleman, Spencer Ware and now Keiro Small. All this for a guy who best case scenario gets 30% of the offensive snaps of which his direct contributions to the success of the play may be half of those snaps? That's why it's disproportionate in my opinion.

[NorthHawk]

Didn't the Seahawks run game get better when Robinson came back? I thought it did, and if it did get better, that pretty much tells us it's a valuable position in our Offense. It doesn't matter so much about the packages because we are a run first Offense so that extra edge of a good blocking Fullback can make a difference. It's all about giving the ball carrier a chance to break off a big run.

[HumanCockroach]

For all intents and purposes Small, Coleman and Ware AREN'T the old school FB. Those days are pretty much over. From what I have read the shift for teams ( the few who still value a lead back) is to the hybrid ( Coleman and Ware both played tailback) and from the reports I have read Small may very well be the best of the bunch in that regard in short yardage ( must be the low man wins thing, especially with 244 pounds of muscle behind it, he's going to be next to impossible to stop for no gain). It also isn't a coincidence that they can catch the ball ( not sure about Ware in that regard but Coleman and Small are both said to have excellent hands).

honestly at this point, there almost needs to be a different name for the position.

a larger portion of their job at this point is as a blocker, safety valve than as a hammer to throw at opposing defenses. Sure they are going to block on dives and what not, short yardage goal line situations, but ultimately, I think what they offer in other areas is the key to whether they make the team or not.

[kalibane]

Actually no Northhawk. Look at that link I posted. Even though I only posted it to show where I got the percentage of snaps that a fullback was actually on the field for the Hawks, the whole point of the article was showing that there is not really a correlation between having a lead blocker and Marshawn Lynch's success running the ball.

[NorthHawk]

Actually no Northhawk. Look at that link I posted. Even though I only posted it to show where I got the percentage of snaps that a fullback was actually on the field for the Hawks, the whole point of the article was showing that there is not really a correlation between having a lead blocker and Marshawn Lynch's success running the ball.

Something doesn't make sense.
We have a run first Offense with at least 2 roster spots devoted to FB, but their effectiveness is inconsequential to the run game? It seems we could use those 2 roster spots for something else.

To fully understand the ypg chart in your link, we would have to know the competition. Maybe they use the FB more against teams that have strong Defenses thus giving a false or at least questionable statistic.

[kalibane]

Well the data is inevitably skewed some because for instance there is almost always a FB on the field in short yardage situations and those plays will never produce as big of an average against a single back spread formation on third and long where the defense doesn't care if you gain 5-6 yards on a draw.

You'd really have to isolate play types to get to the absolute truth of it. But it isn't all just smoke and mirrors. This topic has been researched before (I believe a saw something on football outsiders a couple years back). There is a reason why increasingly more and more teams do not carry fullbacks. Even the value the Seahawks put on the position was shown last year when they decided that it was wiser to sacrifice one of the better FBs in the league who was also valuable on special teams, and one of the best locker room guys because it wasn't worth it to pay him 2 million a year which isn't a huge amount in the NFL. Now I'm not arguing that the Seahawks shouldn't carry a fullback. It's only to underscore my original question. Does this forum seem disproportionately excited about prospective fullbacks? Even as a hybrid option where HC was talking about how they might be used out of the backfield. In 9 games Mike Rob had 2 catches.

[HumanCockroach]

That's true Bane, but Robinson was indeed splitting time with Coleman last year, and it was Coleman not Robinson in on those third downs ( when they had a FB in on third down that is) more often than not. Robinson didn't show up until Coleman went down with injury, and Ware was inactive and then on injured reserve ( meaning they weren't really carrying, more like they werestashing him). Plus even though there were few catches by the group, that doesn't change that that was their job. They really are more similar to an h back at this point, and it isn't just in Seattle. Carolina also carried a "FB" that was really a hybrid in Tolbert, in today's game, the additional skills matter far more than the blocking skills ( though they are still desired, backs that can only do that are an endangered species).

[c_hawkbob]

I both agree and disagree. The FB is more valuable to the Seahawks than other teams but that's kind of the point. Even on a team where the FB is still used, it's still just a package position. I don't think bringing up the Nascar Package is really hitting the mark you're intending. It's not about the package it's about the position within the package. None of the defensive linemen in the Nascar Package only play in the Nascar package. And when they are out of the game it's not because their position on the field is useless for that package it's primarily to keep those players fresh.

Even for a team like the Seahawks who still run the ball more than throw and find that carrying a FB is worth two roster spots, there is a FB on the field only about 30% of the offensive snaps. Last year they never had a FB on the field more than 50% of the offensive snaps in any one game (48% was the max) and a FB was on the field for 20% or fewer snaps 5 times.

And Cliff Avril was in on just 53.2% of the snaps on defense (and yes primarily in the NASCAR package, exactly the mark I was looking for) but are we not all excited to have him on the team? He graded out with the fourth-highest Pass Rushing Productivity score of the year as graded by PFF in their top 101 players of 2013 article (he's #94) https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... 101-to-91/ despite his role as a back up.

I don't disagree with many of your conclusions Kal, I guess I just bristle at being called a "hipster fan" for still liking a hard nosed FB.

[kalibane]

Point taken about the "hipster" comment. I didn't mean that to apply to this forum specifically because there aren't many people here who I'd call a hipster. I think if a poll was conducted as to who the most hipster posters are on this forum I'd probably land near the top of the list, so being at least a smidge self aware, trust me, it wasn't meant as a slight.

Cliff Avril may have only been in the game on 53% of the snaps. But It's not about Cliff Avril, Bob, it's about the position he's playing. There are 2 defensive ends on the field 100% of the snaps regardless of the package. There is at least one pass rushing defensive end on the field on nearly 100% of the snaps. On the other hand Coleman, Robinson and Ware (the entire position group) combined were on the field for roughly 30% of the offensive snaps.

That's a stark difference.

[c_hawkbob]

I do agree that the position is less prominent than it used to be which is why FB's are making so little comparatively, but it's not like they dwell with the long snappers of the NFL. Ask Marshawn how he likes having his "eyes" on the field with him ...

Speaking of Marshawn, check out PFF write up on him in their top 101 I linked a bit ago. In fact I was gonna link it here but this is one that deserves it's own thread. - TBC ...

[RiverDog]

I do agree that the position is less prominent than it used to be which is why FB's are making so little comparatively, but it's not like they dwell with the long snappers of the NFL. Ask Marshawn how he likes having his "eyes" on the field with him ...

Speaking of Marshawn, check out PFF write up on him in their top 101 I linked a bit ago. In fact I was gonna link it here but this is one that deserves it's own thread. - TBC ...

It's not just fullbacks that are the Rodney Dangerfields of the NFL. How long did we go before a running back was selected in this year's draft? 50 something picks? Some of my high school football teammates would get really pizzed if I told them that at OG, I played a more prominent position than they did.