Next up: the draft

[NorthHawk]

As far as this draft goes, now is the time when the deception is nearing its' zenith.
The latest is that Stroud isn't very coachable and he had to look to the sidelines for where to throw the ball and advantageous matchups.

Every one of these 4 QBs could take a year and be really ready to start and Seattle is the best place for any one of them as they can watch and develop without the urgency to play.
It's the ideal situation for a young QB and these 4 all have very high ceilings.

[Hawktawk]

Tebows last TC he was well over 60% completion . He got better . What Tebow was was a winner in college , big time and a wild card winning qb his only year and beating rothlesburger to do it .

So now, Tebow improved his accuracy because he had a 60% completion percentage in his last training camp?

When are you going to face facts, that Tim Tebow was a horrible passer with a career completion percentage of 47.9%, 40.4% in his two playoff games? He was a flaming bust that cost the HC that traded up for him his job.

For all your truly magnificent insight on Geno's success, it's canceled out by your appraisal of Tim Tebow.

Will you show me where I said Tebow was ever a great passer? His motion was bad, his delivery was slow, he was ruined by coaches trying to fix him. I said he improved and I think if he was mid 60s his last camp its quite a bit over his 40% or whatever you think ??????????. As for his 40% in 2 playoff games you pick cherries so well I can find you work in the wenatchee area.

In Tebow's first career playoff game following an 8-3 record in the regular season inheriting a 1-4 team he passed for 316 yards and the winning TD 3:16 into overtime to send Roethlisberger packing with a perfect dagger to Denarius Thomas splitting the coverage perfectly for a walk off TD. They were destroyed by NE the next game like 17 other teams but I guess Tebow couldn't rise to the occasion in foxborough so his fault .

What I have said of Tebow is he was a WINNER. He had low percentage in the NFL but he completed the one that mattered. He didn't throw a lot of picks. He had a brilliant football mind, I loved his NCAA analysis as well as post game pressers as the denver starter. And the thing you ignore is that he was devastating with his legs including between the tackles scoring a number or rushing TDS at the collegiate level with his 2 Natties and several more in his 13 career starts. Devastating in short yardage.
He was a winner . I believe there were not 700 positions available on 32 teams over the past 13 years all filled with people better than Tim Tebow.

Geno makes my point. Its the same insight. He had 7 TD passes and 14 picks as a rookie, 50% completion, once threw 4 picks in 8 pass attempts vs Tampa Bay.

GMs and coaches make busts out of people ultimately. Usually they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Tebow's reasons were complicated but he was put on the scrap heap pretty early on. I credit Tebow for having conducted himself with class and dignity throughout and you clearly hate the guy so your continual response isn't surprising. It wasn't even the salient part of my reply but you jumped all over it.I dont give a rip about your kudos or the lack thereof. Plenty of people agree with my analysis of Tebow, more than Geno a year ago. I dont care whether they are on this forum or not. I stand by my analysis.

[Stream Hawk]

Tebow was hot garbage. He got lucky on the pass to D Thomas in the playoffs. Even Elway knew it

Nice work on your analysis of Geno last year. Exceeded all expectations and I’m OK with him starting all next year. Maybe he do even better; would not surprise me at all.

[Oly]

Yes, a lot of people have compared Richardson to Josh Allen with regards to the accuracy issues, and Allen is an example of a QB that was actually able to improve his accuracy going to the next level. But is Allen the standard we should be looking at or is he an exception to the rule?

There's another comparison to a physical specimen of a QB coming out of college with footwork and mechanics issues that they said could be fixed but never could: Tim Tebow. So which one applies?

Great questions. I wouldn't say I'm comparing AR to either. With Allen, I'm really just mulling over the reasons why Allen was able to improve his accuracy and wondering if AR might be able to do the same. I certainly wouldn't bank on it, but I do think that if AR is given a redshirt year or two that he'll at least be better than Tebow. Tebow's issue--one of them at least--was his long wind-up. Those terrible mechanics were so baked in to his muscle memory that no amount of coaching would improve them. I see more randomness is how AR plays which makes me think he has more possibility of being coached up than Tebow. I have no idea if he can improve like Allen though. Thankfully, I trust Schneider with QB evaluation so if he picks AR I'll assume that his mechanics are coachable.

But will he learn to read the field better? How coachable is.that? I dunno.

[RiverDog]

Will you show me where I said Tebow was ever a great passer? His motion was bad, his delivery was slow, he was ruined by coaches trying to fix him. I said he improved and I think if he was mid 60s his last camp its quite a bit over his 40% or whatever you think ??????????. As for his 40% in 2 playoff games you pick cherries so well I can find you work in the wenatchee area.

In Tebow's first career playoff game following an 8-3 record in the regular season inheriting a 1-4 team he passed for 316 yards and the winning TD 3:16 into overtime to send Roethlisberger packing with a perfect dagger to Denarius Thomas splitting the coverage perfectly for a walk off TD. They were destroyed by NE the next game like 17 other teams but I guess Tebow couldn't rise to the occasion in foxborough so his fault .

What I have said of Tebow is he was a WINNER. He had low percentage in the NFL but he completed the one that mattered. He didn't throw a lot of picks. He had a brilliant football mind, I loved his NCAA analysis as well as post game pressers as the denver starter. And the thing you ignore is that he was devastating with his legs including between the tackles scoring a number or rushing TDS at the collegiate level with his 2 Natties and several more in his 13 career starts. Devastating in short yardage.
He was a winner . I believe there were not 700 positions available on 32 teams over the past 13 years all filled with people better than Tim Tebow.

Geno makes my point. Its the same insight. He had 7 TD passes and 14 picks as a rookie, 50% completion, once threw 4 picks in 8 pass attempts vs Tampa Bay.

GMs and coaches make busts out of people ultimately. Usually they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Tebow's reasons were complicated but he was put on the scrap heap pretty early on. I credit Tebow for having conducted himself with class and dignity throughout and you clearly hate the guy so your continual response isn't surprising. It wasn't even the salient part of my reply but you jumped all over it.I dont give a rip about your kudos or the lack thereof. Plenty of people agree with my analysis of Tebow, more than Geno a year ago. I dont care whether they are on this forum or not. I stand by my analysis.

Well, I'm not turning this into another mindless thread about a busted quarterback who last played well over a decade ago, so I'll end it by saying that I have never in my football life heard anyone justify improvement in a veteran QB's play by trumpeting his training camp completion percentage.

[RiverDog]

Yes, a lot of people have compared Richardson to Josh Allen with regards to the accuracy issues, and Allen is an example of a QB that was actually able to improve his accuracy going to the next level. But is Allen the standard we should be looking at or is he an exception to the rule?

There's another comparison to a physical specimen of a QB coming out of college with footwork and mechanics issues that they said could be fixed but never could: Tim Tebow. So which one applies?

Great questions. I wouldn't say I'm comparing AR to either. With Allen, I'm really just mulling over the reasons why Allen was able to improve his accuracy and wondering if AR might be able to do the same. I certainly wouldn't bank on it, but I do think that if AR is given a redshirt year or two that he'll at least be better than Tebow. Tebow's issue--one of them at least--was his long wind-up. Those terrible mechanics were so baked in to his muscle memory that no amount of coaching would improve them. I see more randomness is how AR plays which makes me think he has more possibility of being coached up than Tebow. I have no idea if he can improve like Allen though. Thankfully, I trust Schneider with QB evaluation so if he picks AR I'll assume that his mechanics are coachable.

But will he learn to read the field better? How coachable is.that? I dunno.

Yeah, Tebow might not be the best comparison as he had such a horrible delivery that, like you say, was baked into him. But I'm not sure that other mechanical aspects of a quarterback's play are any easier to fix.

A better comparison to Richardson might be Jake Locker. He was a stud athlete, often called the best athlete on the field, but he couldn't the broad side of a barn. He was never able to fix it, and although it's debatable as to whether or not he was a 'bust' as he retired after his first contract, but fair to say that he never lived up to expectations that come with a top 10 selection. Locker's completion percentage in college was 53.9%, Richardson's 54.7%.

[Hawktawk]

Locker retired due to constant injuries and said so at the time. I saw him have a concussion at Uw where I thought he might be dead he was out so long . His style was risky .

I didn’t really follow his career much so I can’t comment other than to say he didn’t live up to the body beautiful huge muscular physique . That’s an example of something that looks too good to be true . = Anthony Richardson . And locker was a winning college qb too . No guarantees

[RiverDog]

Locker retired due to constant injuries and said so at the time. I saw him have a concussion at Uw where I thought he might be dead he was out so long . His style was risky .

I didn’t really follow his career much so I can’t comment other than to say he didn’t live up to the body beautiful huge muscular physique . That’s an example of something that looks too good to be true . = Anthony Richardson . And locker was a winning college qb too . No guarantees

I did follow Locker's career as I was a modest Husky fan at the time. As Obi could tell you, I used to really get into it with a lot of diehard Husky fans in the old PI Husky forum that called me Jake Hater. I saw Locker overthrow stationary receivers standing on the sidelines from about 15 yards away with not a hint of any pressure. One summer, I caught one heck of a lot of flak when Locker decided to play baseball and I said he'd be better off if he spent the summer throwing footballs through a truck tire hanging from a tree branch. He was also a bit of a blockhead. My boss's daughter had a class with him at UW and said that he was one dumb jock, and indeed, he did poorly on his Wonderlic, which along with his 54% completion percentage, violated two of the three 26-27-60 predictors for NFL QB prospects. There was a big debate in the predecessor to this forum as to whether or not we should be drafting him. That was in 2011, the year we drafted Russell in the 3rd round. Locker was the 2nd QB taken at #8 overall, and our first pick was way down in the 20's.

Cam Newton is another QB that's similar to Richardson, but Newton had at least a decent completion percentage coming out of college. I'm not hung up on completion percentages, but it is a factor one needs to take into consideration as it does seem to be one of the predictors (Allen being an exception).

[Hawktawk]

Tebow was hot garbage. He got lucky on the pass to D Thomas in the playoffs. Even Elway knew it

Nice work on your analysis of Geno last year. Exceeded all expectations and I’m OK with him starting all next year. Maybe he do even better; would not surprise me at all.

Tebow was a winner every time he got the ball . He won a playoff game and got traded for Manning . And honestly ? Star Wars numbers but first round loss to Flacco at home . Destroyed by LOB . First round loss . Finally 1-14 on third down with a noodle arm and PED suspicion and a qbr of 40 as Von Miller and Cam Newton gifted him a Lombardi .

I think if Tebow were to be successful Denver was the place but Elway hated him , despised him and made it plain in the media .
I think Tebow was a huge reach but I think had he met a coach that believed in him he’d have been a good pro . Discussion over though . I had no Intention of all this until my few words about Tebow improving his % was blown up ignoring an entire post about other stuff .


Thanks for the prop's on Geno . I know lots thought his deal last year was camp arm money with a 500 k buyout . He hit al 7.5 mil in bonuses. If he does it this year watch out . Don’t know what to expect this year. Is he the real Rich Gannon or a hand painted raindrop ? Let’s see

[c_hawkbob]

After visiting the Panthers, Texans and Raiders Brice Young has cancelled the rest of his scheduled visits. I'm sure his agent has assurances he won't get past the 3rd pick, similar to Carter's agent seemingly having assurances he won't last past 10.

[NorthHawk]

According to PFT, the betting odds have gone from -350 to -2000 and they speculate he's been told he's the Panthers pick and that's why he cancelled the remaining visits.
Speculation of course, but it sounds plausible.

[Stream Hawk]

After visiting the Panthers, Texans and Raiders Brice Young has cancelled the rest of his scheduled visits. I'm sure his agent has assurances he won't get past the 3rd pick, similar to Carter's agent seemingly having assurances he won't last past 10.

@Bob. I’m actually come around a little bit on Levis. Listening to the real Hawk talk pod from yesterday, and they spoke highly of him. I trust that crew and their evaluation. I’m definitely not a college football follower most of the season, so I’ve been all over the place this draft season.

[obiken]

I did follow Locker's career as I was a modest Husky fan at the time. As Obi could tell you, I used to really get into it with a lot of diehard Husky fans in the old PI Husky forum that called me Jake Hater. I saw Locker overthrow stationary receivers standing on the sidelines from about 15 yards away with not a hint of any pressure. One summer, I caught one heck of a lot of flak when Locker decided to play baseball and I said he'd be better off if he spent the summer throwing footballs through a truck tire hanging from a tree branch. He was also a bit of a blockhead. My boss's daughter had a class with him at UW and said that he was one dumb jock, and indeed, he did poorly on his Wonderlic, which along with his 54% completion percentage, violated two of the three 26-27-60 predictors for NFL QB prospects. There was a big debate in the predecessor to this forum as to whether or not we should be drafting him. That was in 2011, the year we drafted Russell in the 3rd round. Locker was the 2nd QB taken at #8 overall, and our first pick was way down in the 20's.

Cam Newton is another QB that's similar to Richardson, but Newton had at least a decent completion percentage coming out of college. I'm not hung up on completion percentages, but it is a factor one needs to take into consideration as it does seem to be one of the predictors (Allen being an exception).

I hereby verify every word of this! lol Those were fine times! I wish we could still have that forum River, and this one! I never got the argument because Locker was NEVER that accurate. Next year, and I hate to say this as a Duck, I would take Penix over Caleb Williams of USC River. I just was not impressed Riv, even though I had zero skin in the game, when He took a Magic marker and put fu^k Utah on his knuckles. He is looking to be a franchise QB and your doing that mickey mouse crap.

[NorthHawk]

One year of inaccuracy isn't a factor, but sometimes inaccuracy is mistaken for bad decisions. A QB in college could be very accurate, but always throw into multiple coverages. The stats would show inaccuracy, but the culprit is the decision making.
Other times a QB is accurate, but desperate and forces the ball as there is no hope and there is always the problem in college of dropped passes.
It really takes more than the statistics of completion and interceptions to evaluate a QB in college, and that's not even mentioning the change in on field talent from year to year along with coaching changes.

[RiverDog]

One year of inaccuracy isn't a factor, but sometimes inaccuracy is mistaken for bad decisions. A QB in college could be very accurate, but always throw into multiple coverages. The stats would show inaccuracy, but the culprit is the decision making.
Other times a QB is accurate, but desperate and forces the ball as there is no hope and there is always the problem in college of dropped passes.
It really takes more than the statistics of completion and interceptions to evaluate a QB in college, and that's not even mentioning the change in on field talent from year to year along with coaching changes.

I'm not saying that completion percentage is some sort of golden rule, only that it raises a warning flag that merits further investigation. With Jake Locker, and I'm using him as an example because I watched him over his 4 year college career, it was definitely his inability to put a football on target with consistency. A scatter arm is a little difficult to coach up.

[TriCitySam]

Brock Huard states he would trade 5 and 20 to move up to draft Anderson. I would not. Simply because there is no sure thing....give me two cracks at it.

[RiverDog]

Brock Huard states he would trade 5 and 20 to move up to draft Anderson. I would not. Simply because there is no sure thing....give me two cracks at it.

Yeah, I'm not trading that kind of capital to move up a couple spots to draft a DL that might fall to us anyway.

[Stream Hawk]

I did follow Locker's career as I was a modest Husky fan at the time. As Obi could tell you, I used to really get into it with a lot of diehard Husky fans in the old PI Husky forum that called me Jake Hater. I saw Locker overthrow stationary receivers standing on the sidelines from about 15 yards away with not a hint of any pressure. One summer, I caught one heck of a lot of flak when Locker decided to play baseball and I said he'd be better off if he spent the summer throwing footballs through a truck tire hanging from a tree branch. He was also a bit of a blockhead. My boss's daughter had a class with him at UW and said that he was one dumb jock, and indeed, he did poorly on his Wonderlic, which along with his 54% completion percentage, violated two of the three 26-27-60 predictors for NFL QB prospects. There was a big debate in the predecessor to this forum as to whether or not we should be drafting him. That was in 2011, the year we drafted Russell in the 3rd round. Locker was the 2nd QB taken at #8 overall, and our first pick was way down in the 20's.

Cam Newton is another QB that's similar to Richardson, but Newton had at least a decent completion percentage coming out of college. I'm not hung up on completion percentages, but it is a factor one needs to take into consideration as it does seem to be one of the predictors (Allen being an exception).

I probably followed Locker’s career more than most here. While I admittedly don’t follow college football much, I’m a lifelong Husky fan. My stepsister is best friends with his aunt. I attended functions with his family. Tailgated with his dad, Scott. Never met Jake, but he did sign an autograph for myself and my first born

Jake was not a “dumb jock.” Sure, he wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed, but was quite gifted in so many other areas. And one of the most thoughtful leaders there is. Donated all the time. Set up the Locker Room in his hometown Ferndale, near where I live now. Offered the Lummi Nation free memberships during Covid shut downs.

But yeah, he did suck in the pros. I just had to chime in. Pro qb the most important, but also most challenging job there is in sports. I hope the Hawks choose wisely if they are going that route next week.

[RiverDog]

I did follow Locker's career as I was a modest Husky fan at the time. As Obi could tell you, I used to really get into it with a lot of diehard Husky fans in the old PI Husky forum that called me Jake Hater. I saw Locker overthrow stationary receivers standing on the sidelines from about 15 yards away with not a hint of any pressure. One summer, I caught one heck of a lot of flak when Locker decided to play baseball and I said he'd be better off if he spent the summer throwing footballs through a truck tire hanging from a tree branch. He was also a bit of a blockhead. My boss's daughter had a class with him at UW and said that he was one dumb jock, and indeed, he did poorly on his Wonderlic, which along with his 54% completion percentage, violated two of the three 26-27-60 predictors for NFL QB prospects. There was a big debate in the predecessor to this forum as to whether or not we should be drafting him. That was in 2011, the year we drafted Russell in the 3rd round. Locker was the 2nd QB taken at #8 overall, and our first pick was way down in the 20's.

Cam Newton is another QB that's similar to Richardson, but Newton had at least a decent completion percentage coming out of college. I'm not hung up on completion percentages, but it is a factor one needs to take into consideration as it does seem to be one of the predictors (Allen being an exception).

I probably followed Locker’s career more than most here. While I admittedly don’t follow college football much, I’m a lifelong Husky fan. My stepsister is best friends with his aunt. I attended functions with his family. Tailgated with his dad, Scott. Never met Jake, but he did sign an autograph for myself and my first born

Jake was not a “dumb jock.” Sure, he wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed, but was quite gifted in so many other areas. And one of the most thoughtful leaders there is. Donated all the time. Set up the Locker Room in his hometown Ferndale, near where I live now. Offered the Lummi Nation free memberships during Covid shut downs.

But yeah, he did suck in the pros. I just had to chime in. Pro qb the most important, but also most challenging job there is in sports. I hope the Hawks choose wisely if they are going that route next week.

Keep in mind that the "dumb jock" characterization of JL wasn't mine, it was my boss's daughter's description of him, and she did know him at least well enough to be more qualified than either or us to render such an opinion. But it is a corrosive term and isn't exactly fair as by all accounts, Locker was a good teammate and outstanding citizen, and if it were me, I'd opt for your "not the sharpest tool in the shed" handle as it's not nearly as disrespectful.

And I will say that he had enough insight to realize that he had lost his passion for the sport and common sense to get out when he did rather than trying to maximize his potential income. Some players, even though their hearts aren't in it, hang around long after they've lost their zest for the sport simply for the money.

Nice to hear that he's still around and doing some good for his community.

[govandals]

Brock Huard states he would trade 5 and 20 to move up to draft Anderson. I would not. Simply because there is no sure thing....give me two cracks at it.

I like Huard a lot, but, dang, he has come up with some really bad takes lately.

[Stream Hawk]

Came across these S2 Cognition test scores. I’m actually pretty interested in this test as there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between its results and eventual NFL results. Also, Stroud doe appear to be the sharpest tool in the shed!
https://twitter.com/_mlfootball/status/ ... pMkhpLC7ng

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Came across these S2 Cognition test scores. I’m actually pretty interested in this test as there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between its results and eventual NFL results. Also, Stroud doe appear to be the sharpest tool in the shed!
https://twitter.com/_mlfootball/status/ ... pMkhpLC7ng

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/new ... milpt1avjj

Some interesting points from this article:

1. Joe Burrow scored 97%; Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Brock Purdy mid-90%.
2. From 2021 onward, 27 starting QBs were tested. 13 had a career passer rating over 90 and they scored an average of 91%. Remaining 14 had passer ratings less than 90 with an average of 51% scored on range of 8 to 90.
3. Only 2 quarterbacks in 2022 scored in the 90s. Purdy and one other.

Fairly new testing methodology, but the results are interesting.

[RiverDog]

Came across these S2 Cognition test scores. I’m actually pretty interested in this test as there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between its results and eventual NFL results. Also, Stroud doe appear to be the sharpest tool in the shed!
https://twitter.com/_mlfootball/status/ ... pMkhpLC7ng

There has to be a mistake in the testing if Stroud scored that low (18%) while the next lowest in the top QB's, Richardson, was 78%, that or he just plain had a bad day when they did the test. Plus, it doesn't meet the eye test as Stroud throws the ball with very good anticipation and on target, which would seem to indicate that he'd do well on the S2.

I did notice in another article how they discussed how Josh Allen was one of the few quarterbacks to significantly improve his NFL completion percentage over what he did in college and that his excellent S2 score might an indicator of his ability to do so. That might cause people to consider Richardson's ability to do the same if he scored relatively low on the S2.

[jshawaii22]

I generally would say that if a team relies on a "test score" as a draft consideration, they deserve what they get. But I remember that the Wunderlich also came under fire (mainly for being "racist") but it generally was a pretty good indicator for the QB position, since it requires a little brain power to be good. Now what do the CJ lovers do? What if he falls to #5? Two new mock drafts have moved him to the Seahawks and have Indy taking Levis over him. Just wow!

[RiverDog]

And right on que, I saw an article that cast doubt on Stroud's S2 test score:

New Details Emerge From C.J. Stroud's Bad Test Score

Earlier this Friday, several S2 Cognition test scores leaked. Apparently, not all of them are accurate.

"We're obviously aware of scores being leaked," the founder of the S2 Cognition test said. "We're not sure where that's coming from. I will say take some of those with a grain of salt."

It's unclear which scores are fake. Maybe all of the scores that were leaked are inaccurate.

The most shocking score that leaked was linked to Ohio State quarterback C.J. Stroud. He allegedly had the lowest score (18th percentile) out of the top quarterback prospects.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/ ... eb09&ei=12

[mykc14]

And right on que, I saw an article that cast doubt on Stroud's S2 test score:

New Details Emerge From C.J. Stroud's Bad Test Score

Earlier this Friday, several S2 Cognition test scores leaked. Apparently, not all of them are accurate.

"We're obviously aware of scores being leaked," the founder of the S2 Cognition test said. "We're not sure where that's coming from. I will say take some of those with a grain of salt."

It's unclear which scores are fake. Maybe all of the scores that were leaked are inaccurate.

The most shocking score that leaked was linked to Ohio State quarterback C.J. Stroud. He allegedly had the lowest score (18th percentile) out of the top quarterback prospects.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/ ... eb09&ei=12

Stroud's draft stock has been falling as of late and one explanation was his apparently low S2 score. Also, it seems like his reads were mainly coming from the sidelines. This is an issue I've always had with QBs coming from College systems... many of them o Lu require you to read half the field and your number one read is open most of the time. They allow guys with lower cognitive abilities to be successful in college and that might not translate to the NFL. I will say if Strouds S2 is really that low it would be a huge worry to me.

[mykc14]

it doesn't meet the eye test as Stroud throws the ball with very good anticipation and on target, which would seem to indicate that he'd do well on the S2.

I did notice in another article how they discussed how Josh Allen was one of the few quarterbacks to significantly improve his NFL completion percentage over what he did in college and that his excellent S2 score might an indicator of his ability to do so. That might cause people to consider Richardson's ability to do the same if he scored relatively low on the S2.

I don't know- college offenses do a really good job of giving QBs easy reads. Not saying that he can't read a D or play with real anticipation but let's play devils advocate a little bit. You are playing in an offense that does an excellent job of getting your athletes in good matchups based on tempo, formations, and motions. Combine that with the fact that your athletes are better than 99% of teams you play. Add the fact that you are only "reading" half of the field. Finally, you have almost NO pressure, ever. It would be really interesting to see how many times Stroud had to go past his first or second read. I imagine not very often. That's why my opinion changed on Stroud after the Georgia game. He made multiple plays off script, with pressure, which isn't something that I had seen from him before. I don't know- this S2 score is a little worrisome.

[RiverDog]

Stroud's draft stock has been falling as of late and one explanation was his apparently low S2 score. Also, it seems like his reads were mainly coming from the sidelines. This is an issue I've always had with QBs coming from College systems... many of them o Lu require you to read half the field and your number one read is open most of the time. They allow guys with lower cognitive abilities to be successful in college and that might not translate to the NFL. I will say if Strouds S2 is really that low it would be a huge worry to me.

Did you read the article I linked? It said that the reported S2 test scores were leaked and may not be accurate.

Common sense would indicate that Stroud's 18% can't be accurate when the next lowest was 78%.

[Hawktawk]

I see Hooker as pretty low too and I see him as a virtual equal to the other 4 guys other than he’s rehabbing . Stroud was the best looking qb of the bunch down the stretch . I’m not familiar with this test . I’m familiar with the eyeball test . Stroud passes. If he’s there at 5 I’m taking him . As for Hooker the late Mike Leach was on the record saying he was easily the best SEC qb and he couldn’t understand the Levis Hype . I love HH but now we can’t take him because he’s another dumb ass

[NorthHawk]

I doubt it’s 18%, but it might be lower than the others and him still having a very good college career because he was surrounded by extraordinary talent at both WR and OL. Combine that with not having to learn the reads because of that Offense, QBs from that system don’t have to do as much as Bryce Young, Levis, and other to be successful. Look at the learning curve that Justin Fields has to climb and he was considered pretty good in College and is from the same team/system.

[NorthHawk]

I see Hooker as pretty low too and I see him as a virtual equal to the other 4 guys other than he’s rehabbing . Stroud was the best looking qb of the bunch down the stretch . I’m not familiar with this test . I’m familiar with the eyeball test . Stroud passes. If he’s there at 5 I’m taking him . As for Hooker the late Mike Leach was on the record saying he was easily the best SEC qb and he couldn’t understand the Levis Hype . I love HH but now we can’t take him because he’s another dumb ass

The Tennessee Offense that Hooker played in is really a half field Offense where the scheme permits superior athletes to get wide open. He completed a lot of passes, but like Stroud there were a lot of wide open receivers. The concerning part to me is he didn’t do as well at Va Tech in a more Pro style offense as he did in the more gimmicky Offense of Tenn. Part of it is surrounding talent was better at Tenn, but being 23 and 24 he should have done well. He throws a real nice ball, but can he develop enough at the pro level to be successful? I think the risk is much higher than with the other 4 QBs.

[RiverDog]

I'm with Hawktawk on Stroud. If he's there at #5, I'd break a leg getting to the podium. I could even swallow trading up a few slots, say our #5 and one of our 2nd rounders, if he's still there at #3. I wouldn't put any weight whatsoever on that 18% S2 test result. If the goal was to smear him and it was low, they'd be better off leaving the true test speak for itself rather than substituting such an obviously phony result.

I think Levis will be there if we want him, but his stock has been dropping like a rock. If someone offers us a deal similar to what JS proposed, I'd jump on it like a chicken on a June bug.

[NorthHawk]

For our system, I prefer Levis. He’s already played in it and excelled. Stroud on the other hand has never played in a pro style Offense and his learning curve is much steeper.and there’s a chance he might never really get it. That’s not a concern with Levis. Levis is also a threat to run which would give us an extra weapon for an explosive play.
But I think the Colts want Levis because he’s more pro ready and the need a starter early.

[mykc14]

Did you read the article I linked? It said that the reported S2 test scores were leaked and may not be accurate.

Common sense would indicate that Stroud's 18% can't be accurate when the next lowest was 78%.

Yeah I saw that. I don't think it's as low as 18% and what I heard wasn't in direct reference to the leaked S2 scores- more "Stroud is falling and here is why; low S2 score, college offense, and coach told him who to throw to." I don't know if low S2 score was based on an inaccurate leak or knowledge of his actual score.

[mykc14]

I'm with Hawktawk on Stroud. If he's there at #5, I'd break a leg getting to the podium. I could even swallow trading up a few slots, say our #5 and one of our 2nd rounders, if he's still there at #3. I wouldn't put any weight whatsoever on that 18% S2 test result. If the goal was to smear him and it was low, they'd be better off leaving the true test speak for itself rather than substituting such an obviously phony result.

I think Levis will be there if we want him, but his stock has been dropping like a rock. If someone offers us a deal similar to what JS proposed, I'd jump on it like a chicken on a June bug.

Interesting- you really had me intrigued by the Wonderlick-college starts-accuracy data you presented awhile ago. It's hard for me to overlook now. The S2 correlation to pro success is pretty strong too. I haven't dug deep into the data but preliminary results seem to indicate high S2 with even limited athletic profile= pro success. I guess my question to you is if Stroud had a low S2, maybe not 18% but let's say 50-60%, why do you run to the podium? Does that lower S2 score even cause you to pause and walk? Stroud was my #1 QB until I began to hear leaks of his S2 score- and most of that comes from the Georgia game. Before Georgia I saw exactly what a low S2 would predict- a QB in a college system, with better athletes, being told exactly who to throw to on basically every play which does not translate to NFL success.

[jshawaii22]

I think that if you needed the QB to start from day #1, first game this year, then yes you really need to stop and pause.
But, that's not the case with the Seahawks. We have, 1, 2 or even 3 years with Geno to get our next QB prepped. The question at that point is CJ really good enough to risk him on the 5th pick?

I saw some of the early video of Geno and the Jets when some talking heads were showing how much he improved over a DECADE. He was really bad, and they seemed to intimate it was his 'lack of football IQ".... sounds familiar.... hmmmm.

[RiverDog]

Interesting- you really had me intrigued by the Wonderlick-college starts-accuracy data you presented awhile ago. It's hard for me to overlook now. The S2 correlation to pro success is pretty strong too. I haven't dug deep into the data but preliminary results seem to indicate high S2 with even limited athletic profile= pro success. I guess my question to you is if Stroud had a low S2, maybe not 18% but let's say 50-60%, why do you run to the podium? Does that lower S2 score even cause you to pause and walk? Stroud was my #1 QB until I began to hear leaks of his S2 score- and most of that comes from the Georgia game. Before Georgia I saw exactly what a low S2 would predict- a QB in a college system, with better athletes, being told exactly who to throw to on basically every play which does not translate to NFL success.

They've been giving the Wonderlic test to prospective NFL players since the 70's. The average score for a quarterback was 24, and there were some very some HOF quarterbacks who scored very low, like Terry "Goober" Bradshaw, the guy that couldn't spell 'cat' if you spotted him the 'c' and the 'a', with a 16, Dan Mario and Jim Kelly with a 15, and a few others, and there were some flaming busts that scored very high, like Joey Harrington with a 32, Matt Leinart with a 35, and Rick Mirer (whom Steve Raible once described as 'dumb') with a 31. But with such a large sample size, nearly 50 years of testing, they gathered a large enough sample to where it was a useful tool. The only reason they quit doing it was due to accusations that it was racially biased, an accusation I completely disagreed with.

The S2 hasn't been around near as long. They've only been using it for 7 years, and this season is the first time I've heard about it as it only came to light because last season's "Mr Irrelevant" Brock Purdy scored very well, but they don't have a large enough sample size to match what they'd been doing with the Wonderlic as the jury is still out as some of the first QB's subject to the S2 test haven't completed their careers.

With regards to Stroud's low score, even the S2 test's founder issued this warning, and it was likely directed at Stroud's rumored 18 score:

In an interview with Pro Football Focus published before McGinn’s report but after some rumored scores for players in this draft had already emerged online, cofounder Brandon Ally said that the company is “aware of scores being leaked, and we’re not sure where that’s coming from, but I will say take some of those with a grain of salt.”

“We have seen, ‘Hey, so-and-so scored the highest in the class, or the highest ever, and so-and-so scored low,’ and it’s like, ‘Yeah, that’s not true,’” Ally continued. “With that being said, this class as a whole—all the guys in the discussion (which obviously includes Stroud)—have scored really, really well.”

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/04/21/s2-co ... -cj-stroud

If Stroud was on anyone's board, I doubt that this info on his reported S2 score will take him off it.

[NorthHawk]

The players own the test scores so they can give them out to any team that asks - or permission for the testing service to do so.
They won't be the sole determiner of a players value, but just one piece of the puzzle for teams to consider. How much is up to each Front Office but it might be the difference if they have two players rated equally but one has a significantly higher score than the other. Tests like these don't measure the intangibles like desire to win, competitiveness, love of the game, leadership, and so forth. For some or maybe most teams any one of these intangibles might carry a far greater weight than the S2 score and for others this type of score might be considered a critical piece if information. It's much like the Wonderlich in that way.

I think it would be interesting to see how the best Baseball hitters perform on this test. I would suspect that some of the greatest hitters like Ted Williams and Rod Carew would rate near the top as the test is all about reflexes and reacting to what's put in front of them.

[Hawktawk]

I think that if you needed the QB to start from day #1, first game this year, then yes you really need to stop and pause.
But, that's not the case with the Seahawks. We have, 1, 2 or even 3 years with Geno to get our next QB prepped. The question at that point is CJ really good enough to risk him on the 5th pick?

I saw some of the early video of Geno and the Jets when some talking heads were showing how much he improved over a DECADE. He was really bad, and they seemed to intimate it was his 'lack of football IQ".... sounds familiar.... hmmmm.

We are indeed in a position to draft a project developmental Qb. Is it worth taking one at 5 when we could possibly solidify the defense with a couple generational defenders and WIN NOW .


We might have a 3 year window to win NOW.

It’s the big question . Why are these 3,4 , or 5 top QBs expected to go top ten with all these supposed issues ? Levis reportedly can’t read the field and is inaccurate and has a sense of entitlement and weird grating personality .

Dittos for Richardson, can’t read field , terrible accuracy and reportedly was very loosy goosy in workouts , not taking it seriously . Young is a midget . Hooker is a half the field idiot and hurt . Now we learn Stroud is a half wit cretin that has his coach telling him who to throw to . Scored “ comatose “ on the test , ghosted manning .

This qb as top pick stuff is really a crap shoot . I’ve been pretty sure Stroud was the best guy since thr bowls and now this . Carter is safer then this I think .

[RiverDog]

I think it would be interesting to see how the best Baseball hitters perform on this test. I would suspect that some of the greatest hitters like Ted Williams and Rod Carew would rate near the top as the test is all about reflexes and reacting to what's put in front of them.

I've thought the same thing, ie how baseball players from 70+ years ago might have performed, particularly Ted Williams. There are also other applications where instant reflexes are critical, like fighter pilots and race car drivers. Perhaps it would be an appropriate test for seniors over age 75 to retain their driver's license. Or how about referees? How much of their performance is based on split second impressions and visual signals?