Next up: the draft

[NorthHawk]

There's a new test that's called the S2. It measures how quickly and accurately athletes process information. It showed that Brock Purdy would probably be successful because he scored so high.
From the article:

'The game will never be too fast for Brock, I’ll say that,” said Brandon Ally, a neuroscientist and cofounder of Nashville-based S2 Cognition. “I don’t think he’ll ever have trouble adjusting.”
Ally and his partner, Scott Wylie, have tested more than 40,000 athletes, from big-league batsmen to pro golfers, and the company has contracts with 14 NFL teams. The group already has been testing players at college all-star games during the current draft cycle and will do more testing at next week’s combine in Indianapolis. By the time the draft begins in April, S2 will have scores for more than 800 prospects.'

It's quite interesting.
Here's the link (behind a paywall but if you use Windows Ctrl A (don't scroll down), Ctrl C, then post into Word to read it.

https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02 ... tion-test/

[RiverDog]

There's a new test that's called the S2. It measures how quickly and accurately athletes process information. It showed that Brock Purdy would probably be successful because he scored so high.
From the article:

'The game will never be too fast for Brock, I’ll say that,” said Brandon Ally, a neuroscientist and cofounder of Nashville-based S2 Cognition. “I don’t think he’ll ever have trouble adjusting.”
Ally and his partner, Scott Wylie, have tested more than 40,000 athletes, from big-league batsmen to pro golfers, and the company has contracts with 14 NFL teams. The group already has been testing players at college all-star games during the current draft cycle and will do more testing at next week’s combine in Indianapolis. By the time the draft begins in April, S2 will have scores for more than 800 prospects.'

It's quite interesting.
Here's the link (behind a paywall but if you use Windows Ctrl A (don't scroll down), Ctrl C, then post into Word to read it.

https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02 ... tion-test/

Thanks for the tip on ducking the pay wall! I'll read the article later on.

[Hawktawk]

There's a new test that's called the S2. It measures how quickly and accurately athletes process information. It showed that Brock Purdy would probably be successful because he scored so high.
From the article:

'The game will never be too fast for Brock, I’ll say that,” said Brandon Ally, a neuroscientist and cofounder of Nashville-based S2 Cognition. “I don’t think he’ll ever have trouble adjusting.”
Ally and his partner, Scott Wylie, have tested more than 40,000 athletes, from big-league batsmen to pro golfers, and the company has contracts with 14 NFL teams. The group already has been testing players at college all-star games during the current draft cycle and will do more testing at next week’s combine in Indianapolis. By the time the draft begins in April, S2 will have scores for more than 800 prospects.'

It's quite interesting.
Here's the link (behind a paywall but if you use Windows Ctrl A (don't scroll down), Ctrl C, then post into Word to read it.

https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02 ... tion-test/

Brock Purdy had a nice 7 games or whatever . But he broke Genos dropped pick record including 3 at least by Seattle . Put him behind Seattle’s line trying to throw deep bombs to DK instead of that surgical wide open receiver every play offense. The test doesn’t measure his short arms , small hands , slight frame . He was hardly touched during the year and a big hit vs the eagles pffft . Put him on Seattle and Geno on the 9ers with a line and all those yac guys and a filthy defense . He took every snap unlike the 9ers situation .

I think it’s bull to say people with less higher education are less intelligent . There’s a big difference between the 2 and some people are less intelligent the more education they get .


Of course the wonderlic was racially biased especially years ago . It was one of many variables in how players were selected . Who they were selected by mattered too . Put Peyton Manning on the browns in the day . Russell on the jets with Rex Ryan then Todd Bowles . Get real . Mahomes on the Texans . There are many factors that determine success in the league and going back in hindsight and saying well he failed because he was dumb isn’t cool.

I wonder how many awesome players with a learning disability like adhd or dyslexia lost a shot over this biased presumptive nonsense? How about panic disorder during a timed test in a classroom to determine your future on a football field etc . Bombed and never got drafted over a stupid Fing trap test . I’m sure there were plenty . I’ve taken one , did quite well , top third but never was a fan .

[NorthHawk]

Did you even read the article?

[RiverDog]

Brock Purdy had a nice 7 games or whatever . But he broke Genos dropped pick record including 3 at least by Seattle . Put him behind Seattle’s line trying to throw deep bombs to DK instead of that surgical wide open receiver every play offense. The test doesn’t measure his short arms , small hands , slight frame . He was hardly touched during the year and a big hit vs the eagles pffft . Put him on Seattle and Geno on the 9ers with a line and all those yac guys and a filthy defense . He took every snap unlike the 9ers situation .

I think it’s bull to say people with less higher education are less intelligent . There’s a big difference between the 2 and some people are less intelligent the more education they get .


Of course the wonderlic was racially biased especially years ago . It was one of many variables in how players were selected . Who they were selected by mattered too . Put Peyton Manning on the browns in the day . Russell on the jets with Rex Ryan then Todd Bowles . Get real . Mahomes on the Texans . There are many factors that determine success in the league and going back in hindsight and saying well he failed because he was dumb isn’t cool.

I wonder how many awesome players with a learning disability like adhd or dyslexia lost a shot over this biased presumptive nonsense? How about panic disorder during a timed test in a classroom to determine your future on a football field etc . Bombed and never got drafted over a stupid Fing trap test . I’m sure there were plenty . I’ve taken one , did quite well , top third but never was a fan .

By the same token, how many players didn't get a chance because they had a bad time in the 40 yard dash? How many Cooper Kupps, who's as slow as a sloth, are there that didn't get a shot? How many players didn't get a shot because they went to a small college? Or how many didn't get a shot because their competition's father was a good player?

There are tons of information that is processed by teams, some of it objective, some of it extremely subjective, that they use to select their players.

[Hawktawk]

I can’t link on the phone . I adressed Purdy who you described as having been rated can’t fail . We will see . My comments about the wonderlic were separate . I’ll read this when I get home . I apologize for linking the thoughts in the response .

[RiverDog]

Did you even read the article?

I just read it. I had never heard of it before, but apparently, they've been using it for quite some time. I wonder if in addition to predicting success, if it can also predict failures, like the 26-27-60 rule I linked earlier has done. FYI here's a list of a few QB's that failed the 26-27-60 rule:

Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Heath Shuler, Jimmy Clausen, Jay Cutler, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow, Alex Smith (1 game short), Jeff George, and Vince Young (horrible Wonderlic). Yes, these are all huge busts but were all VERY high (or projected) 1st rounders.

It's also refreshing to know that when I can't find my car in a parking lot, that it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm losing my mind.

[RiverDog]

I copied and pasted the full article so there's no need to try to paste it to a Word document. Hopefully, ObS will appreciate the larger font size:

Was Brock Purdy’s emergence predictable? S2 Cognition test has pointed to NFL success

If you watched Brock Purdy at last year’s NFL Scouting Combine, you would have seen a quarterback with below-average height, a merely adequate arm and foot speed that, while good, didn’t separate him from the pack.

The test he absolutely aced — and one that predicted his brilliant rookie season for the 49ers — was administered out of public view. Purdy landed in the mid 90s on something called the S2 Cognition test, a score you might consider Drew Brees-like.
Which is to say, it’s elite.

The S2 isn’t an intelligence test like the 50-question Wonderlic exam but rather measures how quickly and accurately athletes process information. It’s like the 40-yard dash for the brain. ”The game will never be too fast for Brock, I’ll say that,” said Brandon Ally, a neuroscientist and cofounder of Nashville-based S2 Cognition. “I don’t think he’ll ever have trouble adjusting.”

Ally and his partner, Scott Wylie, have tested more than 40,000 athletes, from big-league batsmen to pro golfers, and the company has contracts with 14 NFL teams. The group already has been testing players at college all-star games during the current draft cycle and will do more testing at next week’s combine in Indianapolis. By the time the draft begins in April, S2 will have scores for more than 800 prospects.

“The GMs have become so interested in the data that we start testing as soon as these kids declare,” Ally said.

The exam lasts 40 to 45 minutes. It’s performed on a specially designed gaming laptop and response pad that can record reactions in two milliseconds. To put that in perspective, an eye blink lasts 100 to 150 milliseconds.

In one section of the exam, a series of diamonds flash on the screen for 16 milliseconds each. Every diamond is missing a point, and the test taker must determine — using left, right, up or down keys — which part is missing.

In another, the test seeks to find out how many objects an athlete can keep track of at the same time. In another, there are 22 figures on the screen and the athlete must locate a specific one as quickly as possible. The object might be a red triangle embedded in other shapes that are also red.
“We’re talking about things they have to perceive on the screen within 16/1,000th of a second, which is essentially subliminal and which scientific literature says you shouldn’t be able to process,” Ally said. “And I’ll be honest with you, we’re seeing pro baseball players see something way faster than 16 milliseconds, which has never been reported in literature, all the way to some athletes who may take 150 milliseconds. So our eyes may see the same thing. But for some, it takes longer to process than others.”

Ally and Wylie met at Vanderbilt University in 2011. Wylie was studying Parkinson’s disease while Ally was researching Alzheimer’s disease. While Alzheimer’s is associated with memory loss, Ally noted his patients also had trouble with visual processing. Getting lost in a supermarket parking lot, for example, wasn’t always about forgetting where the car was parked.

“When we actually dug into this, a lot of patients were saying that a lot of the cars looked similar to them,” he said. “Or that things on the shelf all kind of looked similar — the tomatoes looked like the red peppers and those kinds of things.”

The battery of tests they had patients perform then are similar to the ones the athletes take now, only they’re modified to record the differences between brains that are merely healthy and ones that work on another level.

Ally says the results are predictive.

He couldn’t give out Purdy’s exact score because it’s privileged information but said it was in the “mid 90s.” That’s about where Brees, the former Saints quarterback famous for lightning-fast decision-making, scored and where two of the top passers in the league now, the Chiefs’ Patrick Mahomes and the Bills’ Josh Allen, also landed. The Bengals’ Joe Burrow took the test while at LSU and agreed to allow S2 to disclose the information.
Of course he did — he scored in the 97th percentile.

“We consider anything above the 80th percentile to be elite,” Ally said.

For decades the NFL used the Wonderlic to measure intelligence. The questions start out easy — What’s the eighth month of the year?, for example — and get progressively more difficult. Most people can’t finish the 12-minute exam. While a high Wonderlic score suggests a quarterback knows how to study and will remember the playbook, it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll hold up well against a zero blitz.

[NorthHawk]

The rest of the article:

Brock Purdy’s test results revealed his ability to process information at a high speed. (Michael Zagaris / San Francisco 49ers / Getty Images)
Brees is a good example. He got a 28 on the Wonderlic, which is very good, but not superior. His S2 score, meanwhile, was exceptional. Ally said the cognition test not only can forecast whether a quarterback will be successful in the NFL, it comes close to predicting the quarterback’s career passer rating.
The company recently looked at 27 starting quarterbacks. (Some of the older veterans like Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers had entered the league before S2 began testing in 2015 and there are no scores for them; Brees took the test while already playing in the NFL.) Of that group, 13 had a career passer rating above 90. The average S2 score of those players was the 91st percentile. Those with passer ratings below 90 had much lower test results.
“Those 14 guys, the average score was in the low 60s,” Ally said.

Top-tier quarterbacks have the highest average scores, followed closely by safeties. That makes sense considering safeties are known as the “quarterback of the defense” and must keep an eye on multiple moving opponents.
“The average human being can keep track of about three and a half objects at a time,” Alley said. “The average safety in the NFL, it’s closer to six.”
The positions with the third-highest scores: linebacker and cornerback.
The traditional thinking about cornerback was that it was all about physical skills — being fast and mimicking the movements of a wide receiver. As it turns out, the ability to make rapid decisions and to control impulses are paramount. One of the S2 tests looks at impulse control. Ally said low scores predict substandard play as well as holding and pass-interference penalties.
“If you’re impulsive, you fall prey to that double move,” Ally said. “You make a step in the wrong direction. And second, they just can’t control that impulse to grab a jersey when (the receiver) gets by them. You saw that call in the Super Bowl? We could argue all day long whether that was (a penalty) or not. But you saw him start to get burned and he just couldn’t control that impulse to grab the jersey. That’s very typical of someone with low impulse control.”
The highest S2 score in last year’s draft class, in fact, was turned in by a cornerback, Trent McDuffie, who started 15 games for the Chiefs, including the Super Bowl.
Purdy’s score wasn’t too far behind. According to Ally, the 49ers quarterback did particularly well in three areas. One of them was spatial awareness, which translates in several aspects of the game, including how well a quarterback can assess a defense before the snap.
Another area in which Purdy excelled was distraction control.

“Those are the guys — and Drew Brees was one of those — who, the pocket, the world could be collapsing around them and they can just maintain that steely focus on what they’re supposed to be doing,” Ally said.
Finally, Purdy was especially impressive when it came to depth perception speed.
“He was in some pretty elite company,” Ally said. “I mean, he was in the high 90s on that.”

The 49ers saw that trait in action when Purdy entered for injured Jimmy Garoppolo in a Week 13 game against the Dolphins. San Francisco had entered the contest with a four-game winning streak and the immediate thought was that the offense would sputter under Purdy. And understandably so. Garoppolo was a former second-round pick and a nine-year veteran. Purdy was 22 at the time and the last player chosen in the draft. What’s more, the Dolphins had been calling more all-out blitzes than the 49ers expected and were doing a good job of taking away hot reads. That’s how Garoppolo got hurt in the first quarter.
The offense, however, didn’t miss a beat with Purdy. Instead, the No. 1 takeaway following the 33-17 win was how deftly the rookie handled Miami’s zero blitzes and how quickly and aggressively he made decisions.
“I like when a play is there that guys aren’t scared to make it, they don’t hesitate, they don’t take a second look at it,” 49ers coach Kyle Shanahan said at the time. “They let it rip and they worry about it after. A lot of guys who just guess do that too, so you have to find out whether they’re being aggressive — if they’re deciding then to do it — or if they’re deciding on Wednesday. But Brock has been very good with it. He can explain what he sees and that’s why we’ve got a lot of confidence in him.”
As for the 49ers’ other young quarterback, Trey Lance?
Ally couldn’t reveal the exact number but said Lance “scored well.”

He’s not in the Brock Purdy range but he didn’t score poorly,” he said.
The question every general manager will be asking between now and the April draft is which quarterback is the next Brock Purdy, the passer everyone overlooks because he’s not physically imposing but whose brain can help salvage a season? Ally said he couldn’t divulge scores, but he did say the 2023 quarterback results were dramatically better than last year when only Purdy and one other quarterback scored above the 90th percentile.
“We’ve been doing the NFL draft for seven years,” Ally said. “From an S2 Cognitive perspective, last year was the worst year we’ve ever had score-wise. And this year is by far and away the best we’ve ever had, score-wise, at the quarterback position.”
He hinted that the quarterback whom many believe will be the first player drafted had an impressive score.
“I do have a feeling that a quarterback from Alabama that we have tested every year since he was in 10th grade may end up sharing his results publicly because he actually owns those results and the NFL does not,” Ally said.

[RiverDog]

Thanks, North Hawk! I never got to the 2nd part, and it answered one of my questions: How long have they been doing this? Answer: 7 years.

[mykc14]

I just read it. I had never heard of it before, but apparently, they've been using it for quite some time. I wonder if in addition to predicting success, if it can also predict failures, like the 26-27-60 rule I linked earlier has done. FYI here's a list of a few QB's that failed the 26-27-60 rule:

Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Heath Shuler, Jimmy Clausen, Jay Cutler, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow, Alex Smith (1 game short), Jeff George, and Vince Young (horrible Wonderlic). Yes, these are all huge busts but were all VERY high (or projected) 1st rounders.

It's also refreshing to know that when I can't find my car in a parking lot, that it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm losing my mind.

I think this 26-27-60 rule is fascinating and I would love to learn more about it, if only they still did the wonderlick. Possibly this new S2 test can replace it because the results from the 26-27-60 rule seem pretty accurate at predicting busts.

[mykc14]

He hinted that the quarterback whom many believe will be the first player drafted had an impressive score.
“I do have a feeling that a quarterback from Alabama that we have tested every year since he was in 10th grade may end up sharing his results publicly because he actually owns those results and the NFL does not,” Ally said.





[/size]

This is really interesting. Obviously he's talking about Bryce Young here. Would a high score on this test change anybody's idea about him as a QB. It does seem there is a connection between a high score and success in the NFL. I would love to see these scores over time. I wonder how many QB's have had a high score and become busts? It would be interesting to see. I would love to see what RW's score was because those are some areas that I always wondered about with him- his processing, pre-snap recognition, and spatial awareness.

[NorthHawk]

I remember hearing an interview with one of the better QBs of the day (more than a decade) who when asked what he saw before deciding to throw and he replied flashes of color and he knew then that his receiver was on time in his route. It fits part of this test with identifying quickly when or where to throw.

In any case, it emphasizes the importance of what’s between the QBs ears to be successful and provides the answer to why some QBs who don’t look or move like top athletes can be very productive.

[Hawktawk]

He hinted that the quarterback whom many believe will be the first player drafted had an impressive score.
“I do have a feeling that a quarterback from Alabama that we have tested every year since he was in 10th grade may end up sharing his results publicly because he actually owns those results and the NFL does not,” Ally said.





[/size]

“ Mykc This is really interesting. Obviously he's talking about Bryce Young here. Would a high score on this test change anybody's idea about him as a QB. It does seem there is a connection between a high score and success in the NFL. I would love to see these scores over time. I wonder how many QB's have had a high score and become busts? It would be interesting to see. I would love to see what RW's score was because those are some areas that I always wondered about with him- his processing, pre-snap recognition, and spatial awareness.[/quote]

Yeah it would be interesting to see all the names . It’s a very interesting study although I’d expect there are outlyers .

As for Young it’s about his frame obviously . No other reason not to like the guy . The only short run around guy to have great success was drafted in the 3rd round 11 years ago . Who else ? Its not about their intellect .

When they say this is the best score they had by far is that just Young or all the top guys ? I guess if Trey Lance did well that kind of bucks the trend a bit .
It’s my point about Purdy . And with arms so short he can’t put his hands in his pockets( Brock Huard joke ) there’s a limit to how many shortcomings his mind can overcome . As Huard pointed out there’s throws like deep outs and deep patterns he doesn’t even try to throw most of the time , throws Geno and most other QBs can make routinely .

I was impressed with him but I hope Shanahan thinks he’s the long term answer . He was pretty good but very lucky last year. Especially the team he was on .

Now he’s hurt and I wish him well but his arm won’t be stronger . Just sayin .
Food for thought though , absolutely .

[Hawktawk]

I remember hearing an interview with one of the better QBs of the day (more than a decade) who when asked what he saw before deciding to throw and he replied flashes of color and he knew then that his receiver was on time in his route. It fits part of this test with identifying quickly when or where to throw.

In any case, it emphasizes the importance of what’s between the QBs ears to be successful and provides the answer to why some QBs who don’t look or move like top athletes can be very productive.

Is Brady’s wonderlic public ? That would be interesting .
They should make coaches take the tests too, maybe weed out the Hacketts and Urban Meyers

[RiverDog]

I think this 26-27-60 rule is fascinating and I would love to learn more about it, if only they still did the wonderlick. Possibly this new S2 test can replace it because the results from the 26-27-60 rule seem pretty accurate at predicting busts.

The S2 is quite different from the Wonderlich as it measures, or attempts to measure, the part of our minds that acquires and processes information through our senses while the Wonderlich measures basic intellect or reasoning. As the last sentence in the part of the article I posted mentions, a Wonderlich test might indicate if a player can study and remember the playbook while the S2 is an indication if a QB would be able to recognize a zero blitz.

I'd have to look at the entire range of the 26-27-60 rule to see just how accurate it is. Are they cherry picking the results? There are a lot of quarterbacks that succeeded while failing the test and a lot that passed the test yet busted. Christain Ponder, for example, passed the test yet he busted. Plus, there along with a lot in-between. Cam Newton, for example, failed the test and ended up going out with a thud, but you can hardly call a league MVP a bust. Jake Locker failed the test miserably, but he still started and played for 4 years until he voluntarily quit the game. You'd have to line up all of the first round picks and their 26-27-60 scores, assign some sort of 'bust' number to them, and figure out if it was any better at forecasting a bust than what one would expect at random.

It's a little off topic, but if I were to pick a player out of the past that would likely score high on the S2, it would be Ted Williams.

[RiverDog]

He hinted that the quarterback whom many believe will be the first player drafted had an impressive score.
“I do have a feeling that a quarterback from Alabama that we have tested every year since he was in 10th grade may end up sharing his results publicly because he actually owns those results and the NFL does not,” Ally said.

This is really interesting. Obviously he's talking about Bryce Young here. Would a high score on this test change anybody's idea about him as a QB. It does seem there is a connection between a high score and success in the NFL. I would love to see these scores over time. I wonder how many QB's have had a high score and become busts? It would be interesting to see. I would love to see what RW's score was because those are some areas that I always wondered about with him- his processing, pre-snap recognition, and spatial awareness.

The underlined portion in NH's quote brings up another subject, one that I would guess is the reason why they discontinued using the Wonderlich. Some of that information is very personal. Who wants it to be known that you scored low on the Wonderlich? How would you like to be Vince Young essentially walking around wearing a dunce cap? A poor score could influence a prospective employer's decision to hire you or not. Do you want your daughter dating a guy that scored a 6 on the test?

Although they don't apply in this situation as it doesn't involve a medical provider, it's the same reasoning as that which is behind the HIPPA laws. The S2 may not be quite as personal as the Wonderlich, but it's still personal information that IMO should be yours to do with as you please.

[Stream Hawk]

Bears no longer have #1 pick; they pick 9. Carolina is on the clock. This is looking more likely Will Anderson (unlikely) or Carter (very likely) will be there at 5.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/358 ... ources-say

[c_hawkbob]

Bears no longer have #1 pick; they pick 9. Carolina is on the clock. This is looking more likely Will Anderson (unlikely) or Carter (very likely) will be there at 5.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/358 ... ources-say

Yay!

[obiken]

Yay!

Do we really want Carter though CB? As River and others have said, he has a work ethic issue and a character Red Flag, no question he is the most dominant at his position in years, but I would pass on him.

[RiverDog]

I remember hearing an interview with one of the better QBs of the day (more than a decade) who when asked what he saw before deciding to throw and he replied flashes of color and he knew then that his receiver was on time in his route. It fits part of this test with identifying quickly when or where to throw.

In any case, it emphasizes the importance of what’s between the QBs ears to be successful and provides the answer to why some QBs who don’t look or move like top athletes can be very productive.

Is Brady’s wonderlic public ? That would be interesting .
They should make coaches take the tests too, maybe weed out the Hacketts and Urban Meyers

Tom Brady scored a 33 on the Wonderlich, which is very good. However, he missed one of the benchmarks in the 26-27-60 rule, missing the 26 starts criteria by 1 start.

[Stream Hawk]

Do we really want Carter though CB? As River and others have said, he has a work ethic issue and a character Red Flag, no question he is the most dominant at his position in years, but I would pass on him.

Remember Warren Sapp's work ethic concerns out of college? I have heard nothing but excellent things about Carter lately. Blue chip talent. Take him if he's there at 5. On the other hand, take Will Anderson first if he's somehow still there due to QB craze teams. Another defensive interior at 20. Hendon Hooker in the 2nd. Best C available with our native 2nd rounder.

Sorry, I don't know enough prospects to name names just yet.

[RiverDog]

Bears no longer have #1 pick; they pick 9. Carolina is on the clock. This is looking more likely Will Anderson (unlikely) or Carter (very likely) will be there at 5.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/358 ... ources-say

Yeah, they're likely taking Richardson or Stroud. It would be ironic if the Panthers took Richardson as he's been compared to Cam Newton.

Even if we wanted him, taking Carter at #5 overall would be a waste of a top 5 pick as he's likely to drop out of the top 10.

[RiverDog]

Do we really want Carter though CB? As River and others have said, he has a work ethic issue and a character Red Flag, no question he is the most dominant at his position in years, but I would pass on him.

Remember Warren Sapp's work ethic concerns out of college? I have heard nothing but excellent things about Carter lately. Blue chip talent. Take him if he's there at 5. On the other hand, take Will Anderson first if he's somehow still there due to QB craze teams. Another defensive interior at 20. Hendon Hooker in the 2nd. Best C available with our native 2nd rounder.

Sorry, I don't know enough prospects to name names just yet.

As I mentioned above, if we really want Carter, then we should look at trading down a few slots. In addition to the work ethic concerns, he still has that drag racing incident hanging over his head.

[c_hawkbob]

Do we really want Carter though CB? As River and others have said, he has a work ethic issue and a character Red Flag, no question he is the most dominant at his position in years, but I would pass on him.

Yes. He is still, IMO, the most impactful player on the board. I don't buy the work ethic issue as major and the character "red flag" is pale orange at worst as I see it. Less of one in fact as that of our QB.

Remember Warren Sapp's work ethic concerns out of college? I have heard nothing but excellent things about Carter lately. Blue chip talent. Take him if he's there at 5. On the other hand, take Will Anderson first if he's somehow still there due to QB craze teams. Another defensive interior lineman at 20. Hendon Hooker in the 2nd. Best C available with our native 2nd rounder.
Sorry, I don't know enough prospects to name names just yet.

Agreed! Carter, Anderson, Stroud, Young then Levis. One of them is gonna be there, take 'em. If we can trade down a spot or two and still get 'em fine, unless it's Carter. Don't take that chance if he's there. I like your subsequent game plan as well.

As I mentioned above, if we really want Carter, then we should look at trading down a few slots. In addition to the work ethic concerns, he still has that drag racing incident hanging over his head.

He'll be gone if we do, and it wasn't a drag race from what I saw.

[Aseahawkfan]

Remember Warren Sapp's work ethic concerns out of college? I have heard nothing but excellent things about Carter lately. Blue chip talent. Take him if he's there at 5. On the other hand, take Will Anderson first if he's somehow still there due to QB craze teams. Another defensive interior at 20. Hendon Hooker in the 2nd. Best C available with our native 2nd rounder.

Sorry, I don't know enough prospects to name names just yet.

Warren Sapp had way more college production than Carter. Bad motor and lack of college production even against weak competition at times is not good for a D-line guy.

[Aseahawkfan]

As I mentioned above, if we really want Carter, then we should look at trading down a few slots. In addition to the work ethic concerns, he still has that drag racing incident hanging over his head.

You don't even need to discuss the guy's drag racing incident. Spending a top 5 pick on Carter is no bueno and you know I've been banging the drum on D-line for ages.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/aaron-donald-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ndamukong-suh-1.html

Warren Sapp: Many top nationally ranked college football programs recruited Sapp and he played at the University of Miami for the Hurricanes, where he was a defensive standout. He converted to defensive lineman and in 1994 won the Bronko Nagurski Trophy (for best defensive player), the Lombardi Award (for best lineman or linebacker), and the Bill Willis Award (for best defensive lineman).[6] As a junior at Miami in 1994, he had 84 tackles and led the Hurricanes in sacks with 10.5 sacks. He also finished sixth in Heisman Trophy voting that year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jalen-carter-1.html Best season was 3 sacks against college competition of varying levels.

That's not a Top 5 defensive lineman. Sorry, but it just isn't. Low college production when you supposedly have dominating physical strength and ability is a sign of a bad motor or just over-rated talent. This guy is not at all worth the top 5 pick even before the drag racing incident. He's getting vastly over-valued in a weak D-line class. I'd focus more on some of these edge rushers or D-line with better production. Let someone else ride the Jalen Carter hype train to mediocrity or worse. Because NFL competition is all strong and you can't take plays off.

[c_hawkbob]

Some player's value cannot be measured by individual stats.

Jalen Carter DL Georgia
by Drew Boylhart • December 16, 2022
STRENGTHS

If you are looking for one of the best defensive players in this draft you are looking for Jalen. He is big, and powerful, with excellent overall athleticism. He can push the pocket against a double team and rush the passer beating a double team. He has good quick feet that make him, along with his size and strength, explosive off the line of scrimmage. Jalen has been coached very well and uses excellent hand techniques when defending against the run to keep his defender off his body making it easy for him to shed blocks and make tackles at the line of scrimmage. If you try to block him on third and long with just one offensive lineman, Jalen will explode off the line and be in your backfield, like a bear coming out of its winter-long hibernation looking for its first meal. Jalen is in NFL football shape. He is technique-sound, big, strong, explosive off the line, and demands a double team on every play and that shows me that Jalen “Big Bear” Carter has an excellent work ethic and is ready for the next level.

CONCERNS

Go ahead, nit-pick…I dare you. Will Jalen get you double-digit sacks? Not likely, because he understands how to play his position and the goal of his position. If stats are what you’re looking for then Jalen is not you guy. If you want a dominating defense in all phases of the game then Jalen is your guy.

BOTTOM LINE: 1.40

Jalen is the type of player you build your dominating defense around. He will stop the run and push the pocket and demand double teams and sometimes triple teams because he can beat double teams. I don’t care what you have been told over the years, but a good pass rush starts with an inside player demanding a double team so that your Edge Rushers are freed up to play one-on-one. The great pass rushers can beat double teams but most teams’ pass rush is “produced” by Edge Rushes up against one on one defense, blitzing LBs and stunts played up front. A dominating Defense starts with an interior lineman who can stop the run consistently and who demands the double team in pass-rushing situations. Jalen demands double teams on just about every down and distance. Most people value the pass rusher over the interior lineman who can stop the run and be disruptive when pass rushing. When I find a player with Jalen’s size and athletic talent I find it very hard to value any other defensive player over that type of potential impact player. But that’s just me.

https://www.thehuddlereport.com/blog/?p=2977

[RiverDog]

You don't even need to discuss the guy's drag racing incident. Spending a top 5 pick on Carter is no bueno and you know I've been banging the drum on D-line for ages.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/aaron-donald-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ndamukong-suh-1.html

Warren Sapp: Many top nationally ranked college football programs recruited Sapp and he played at the University of Miami for the Hurricanes, where he was a defensive standout. He converted to defensive lineman and in 1994 won the Bronko Nagurski Trophy (for best defensive player), the Lombardi Award (for best lineman or linebacker), and the Bill Willis Award (for best defensive lineman).[6] As a junior at Miami in 1994, he had 84 tackles and led the Hurricanes in sacks with 10.5 sacks. He also finished sixth in Heisman Trophy voting that year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/jalen-carter-1.html Best season was 3 sacks against college competition of varying levels.

That's not a Top 5 defensive lineman. Sorry, but it just isn't. Low college production when you supposedly have dominating physical strength and ability is a sign of a bad motor or just over-rated talent. This guy is not at all worth the top 5 pick even before the drag racing incident. He's getting vastly over-valued in a weak D-line class. I'd focus more on some of these edge rushers or D-line with better production. Let someone else ride the Jalen Carter hype train to mediocrity or worse. Because NFL competition is all strong and you can't take plays off.

You're preaching to the choir, bro.

I don't want Carter. I was only saying that if we did want him, that it wouldn't make sense to take him with our #5 overall as he's bound to drop out of the top ten. I wasn't advocating drafting him even with a slightly lower pick. If he drops to our #20 overall, then I'd pull the trigger.

[Aseahawkfan]

Some player's value cannot be measured by individual stats.


https://www.thehuddlereport.com/blog/?p=2977

I do not agree at all. Stud DTs put up stud DT stats in college. Carter may come from a strong conference, but even strong conference teams play against a bunch of weak competition. If Carter isn't putting up big stats with his supposedly dominant physical gifts, there is a reason. That reason will only make it far more difficult for him to put up stats and have an impact in the NFL where the players are even better than he faced in college.

[RiverDog]

Some player's value cannot be measured by individual stats.


https://www.thehuddlereport.com/blog/?p=2977

I do not agree at all. Stud DTs put up stud DT stats in college. Carter may come from a strong conference, but even strong conference teams play against a bunch of weak competition. If Carter isn't putting up big stats with his supposedly dominant physical gifts, there is a reason. That reason will only make it far more difficult for him to put up stats and have an impact in the NFL where the players are even better than he faced in college.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Carter plays for a very, very good team, the first back-to-back NC's in decades. Sometimes the quality of play around a specific player can make them look better than they actually are, ie fewer double teams and plays designed to avoid them, and gives them more of an opportunity to stand out than if they were playing for a lesser team.

[NorthHawk]

To be fair other times top players are used differently when there is a lot of talent around them so the Offense doesn't know who is going to be the dominant player. He may have been in schemes at times where he was to read and react instead of charging ahead and creating havoc. Having said that, him not even being on the field for a lot of plays is a big concern. It wasn't just platooning by the coaching staff because their best player on the DL was often on the sidelines during the most important times in games and he was gasping for air.
I get the impression he's never had to work hard. He's by far the most talented DL in this draft and maybe for a number of years, but if he can't work hard, he's never going to reach his potential as a top 5 player. And having been through the Curry saga, I wonder if it's worth the gamble. If he had the motor of JJ Watt or Warren Sapp it would be a no brainer, but it's troubling he doesn't.

[c_hawkbob]

I must say I'm a bit surprised. Y'all are acting like you really don't know the difference between a 4-3 DT vs a true 3-4 Nose Tackle. The most important element of a well functioning 3-4 is a NT that demands a double team on every play, whether it's a run or a pass.

[RiverDog]

To be fair other times top players are used differently when there is a lot of talent around them so the Offense doesn't know who is going to be the dominant player. He may have been in schemes at times where he was to read and react instead of charging ahead and creating havoc. Having said that, him not even being on the field for a lot of plays is a big concern. It wasn't just platooning by the coaching staff because their best player on the DL was often on the sidelines during the most important times in games and he was gasping for air.
I get the impression he's never had to work hard. He's by far the most talented DL in this draft and maybe for a number of years, but if he can't work hard, he's never going to reach his potential as a top 5 player. And having been through the Curry saga, I wonder if it's worth the gamble. If he had the motor of JJ Watt or Warren Sapp it would be a no brainer, but it's troubling he doesn't.

I noticed that, too. I have to qualify my comments by saying that the only time I've seen him was in their two CFP playoff games, but he was on the sideline quite often, even on crucial 3rd downs. It looked to me like he had a conditioning issue as there were times that I noticed that he wasn't pursuing plays. I thought it might just be my own personal impression, but when I mentioned it in the other forum I frequent, a number of posters of whom I've come to respect said the exact same thing.

The last time we had a pick this high, we took Aaron Curry, and this guy reminds me a lot of him. No way do I want to spend our #5 pick on this guy.

[Hawktawk]

I don’t know if Carter is who Bob says he is or Asea or someone in the middle . What I don’t do is fault him for this wasted recruiter crashing and dying . As a few of us have pointed out ad nauseum he was driving a vehicle with over 700 horsepower capable of 0-60 in 3 seconds and a quarter mile of 12 flat at 125 mph. She was in a tank 6 k lbs expedition pool vehicle . It wasn’t a race . She thought it was .
I don’t think anything Carter did there is evidence of a character flaw . Just a young man having fun winding up connected to an awful tragedy not of his making .
Pete and John are quite bad at picking d linemen it seems , even in the championship year free agents were the bulk of our talent . That said if Pete and John think he’s worth drafting and there’s not another standout player offense or defense available at 5 take him . He isn’t going to last till 20 imo .

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I must say I'm a bit surprised. Y'all are acting like you really don't know the difference between a 4-3 DT vs a true 3-4 Nose Tackle. The most important element of a well functioning 3-4 is a NT that demands a double team on every play, whether it's a run or a pass.

We do know the difference. He's also not the only option for that role and might not be the best suited for it. His comp is Jefferey Simmons, who isn't 3-4 nose tackle. Carter isn't in the mold of Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Haloti Ngata, or Dontari Poe. Those are true 3-4 NT. Not saying Carter can't be useful, but I won't be surprised if they don't go with him.

[NorthHawk]

I don’t know if Carter is who Bob says he is or Asea or someone in the middle . What I don’t do is fault him for this wasted recruiter crashing and dying . As a few of us have pointed out ad nauseum he was driving a vehicle with over 700 horsepower capable of 0-60 in 3 seconds and a quarter mile of 12 flat at 125 mph. She was in a tank 6 k lbs expedition pool vehicle . It wasn’t a race . She thought it was .
I don’t think anything Carter did there is evidence of a character flaw . Just a young man having fun winding up connected to an awful tragedy not of his making .
Pete and John are quite bad at picking d linemen it seems , even in the championship year free agents were the bulk of our talent . That said if Pete and John think he’s worth drafting and there’s not another standout player offense or defense available at 5 take him . He isn’t going to last till 20 imo .

I understand what you are saying about the fatal car crash. It might not be his problem legally, but his team mate was in that car, too and this is a guy who week in and week out practiced and went into a street fight with. But he left him to his fate when he might have needed Carter the most. It shows a lack of maturity and that's been a constant theme of criticism along with selfishness about him far before the car crash. Zierlein and I think McShay talked about it numerous times after talking to scouts and perhaps coaches.

JS was on a local talk show recently and was saying last year they drafted for character and it turned out so well that they want to continue this year. From that comment we might properly infer that the character issues would push Carter off of their board - at least in the first round. Anderson on the other hand is considered a solid team first type so he will probably be their top Defensive player on their board - maybe the top player on their entire board.

[TriCitySam]

Carolina's move to #1 would seem to set it up where Young, Stroud and likely Richardson may be off the board before #5. Which leaves us maybe looking at D. I've read conflicting opinions on the draft quality, and Huard said the other day the DI talent gets "very bleak" after Carter. I'm not sure he knows, but I too would have a tough time going for Carter at #5. Historically, DE talent has been seen as the most valuable, so if Anderson is there it would seem like a good play (although Edge seems to be a draft strength this year).

As for NT, Mazi Smith is one that is seen as a true NT, may be available in early 2nd round. But he didn't participate much at the combine, no interviews, no drills, but did wow them with 34 reps of 225. Being a workout wonder sometimes means zip. He will participate at Michigan's pro day.

[NorthHawk]

Carolina's move to #1 would seem to set it up where Young, Stroud and likely Richardson may be off the board before #5. Which leaves us maybe looking at D. I've read conflicting opinions on the draft quality, and Huard said the other day the DI talent gets "very bleak" after Carter. I'm not sure he knows, but I too would have a tough time going for Carter at #5. Historically, DE talent has been seen as the most valuable, so if Anderson is there it would seem like a good play (although Edge seems to be a draft strength this year).

As for NT, Mazi Smith is one that is seen as a true NT, may be available in early 2nd round. But he didn't participate much at the combine, no interviews, no drills, but did wow them with 34 reps of 225. Being a workout wonder sometimes means zip. He will participate at Michigan's pro day.

I'm not one for the bench press being any type of measuring stick, but Smith's games showed some real athleticism for a guy who's about 325lbs. I would think he would be an upgrade over Mone and maybe Woods as well but a lot of teams will view him as a desirable selection in this draft.

What is difficult for me is to determine who would fit in a 3-4 DE role. Maybe Andre Carter II from Army or Keion White from Georgia Tech? They both seem to have the right size (if I'm correct on what is required), but it gets more difficult the deeper into the draft I go.

[RiverDog]

I don’t know if Carter is who Bob says he is or Asea or someone in the middle . What I don’t do is fault him for this wasted recruiter crashing and dying . As a few of us have pointed out ad nauseum he was driving a vehicle with over 700 horsepower capable of 0-60 in 3 seconds and a quarter mile of 12 flat at 125 mph. She was in a tank 6 k lbs expedition pool vehicle . It wasn’t a race . She thought it was .
I don’t think anything Carter did there is evidence of a character flaw . Just a young man having fun winding up connected to an awful tragedy not of his making .
Pete and John are quite bad at picking d linemen it seems , even in the championship year free agents were the bulk of our talent . That said if Pete and John think he’s worth drafting and there’s not another standout player offense or defense available at 5 take him . He isn’t going to last till 20 imo .

No one, at least no one in here, has blamed Carter for the fatal car crash. But nor should we say that he has no fault whatsoever. We don't have all the facts so none of us should jump to any conclusions, but if he was involved in a race, then he bears quite a bit of responsibility and should be held criminally liable.

But what we do know, and what others and I have noted, is Carter's completely irresponsible behavior immediately following the crash. We've all seen the actions of true heroes that risk their lives to save that of a complete stranger. Carter knew those people that were involved, and we can assume that they were friends of his, yet when it's obvious that their lives were in danger, he puts his tail between his legs and leaves the scene like a scolded puppy before first responders arrive. That's a huge character flaw IMO, and there's no way you can paint a smiley face on it. Two people died, for crying out loud.