Battle in Seattle for QB1

[Hawktawk]

Maybe I missed part of the conversation. #2 second tier ?
I wouldn’t take Brady at this point . He’s old and you can’t fix it . Amazing for being old but who wants to be on the hook when he collapses ? Not me . Someone might if he even plays . I’d take Geno over Jones . Lamar Jackson OK but he’s 50 mil . I’d be really angry if Rodgers wound up here and again who is paying for that . ? Geno had better stats then any of those guys and he’s 60 cents on the dollar .
Mayfield and the rest of those stiffs ? Not a chance .
As for Pete being full of it isn’t that saying he’s untruthful . I think you’re making the same mistake you made with Geno . Pete caught a raft of crap for promoting Geno . But he’s consistently pumped Drew all season as well .
Don’t misunderstand . He said Boye Mafe reminded him a bit of Avril . Not seeing that yet He pumped Colby Parkinson then the guy got hurt but looks damn good now .
I don’t feel as positive as I did about Geno because I saw him in the system and immediately recognized he was starter quality . But only because Pete saw it in a career benchwarmer .

[Aseahawkfan]

I'd prefer Geno at 20 million a year, but we'll see what the market decides.

I'd take a run at Carr for cheap too. If Lamar hits free agency, I'd take a look. But he likely way out of our price range.

[c_hawkbob]

Geno at $20 M just ain't happening. It'll be (much) closer to 30.

[Old but Slow]

For me, I would try to sign Geno for $15 to $18. It just not seem that there will be much competition to sign him.

[NorthHawk]

I doubt they can do $30M per year. It would hammer the Cap.
We’ve been hesitant in adding voidable years, but now may be the time.
It would allow us to pay him but still have limited risk and if we draft a QB it will permit the rookie to learn for a year.

[EmeraldBullet]

For me, I would try to sign Geno for $15 to $18. It just not seem that there will be much competition to sign him.

I was thinking 2 years for 35M sounds about right

[Aseahawkfan]

Geno at $20 M just ain't happening. It'll be (much) closer to 30.

It would be nice to sign Geno and a 3/4 DE/NT or a pass rusher of some kind. Geno at 30 might stop that.

[obiken]

I doubt they can do $30M per year. It would hammer the Cap.
We’ve been hesitant in adding voidable years, but now may be the time.
It would allow us to pay him but still have limited risk and if we draft a QB it will permit the rookie to learn for a year.

30 Mill a year I say thanks and good bye Geno.

[Hawktawk]

Anyone get a load of Allen yesterday ? How about Dak? Man if Genos 23 points in that stadium was “write back “ what was all that ?
Gotta go qb!!!!! Get the next Josh Allen . Didn’t look like Stephon Diggs even wants to play with him after that . He apparently left the stadium within minutes of the game . I love Josh but is he Kirk Cousins with swag , can’t win the big one ?


There is still Burrow and Mahomes but they aren’t in this draft I don’t think but who knows ? I’m the biggest fan in the world of Geno and I don’t know myself what to do but if you get 3 years of Geno for 90 maybe one voided 50-60 guaranteed it’s looking like a bargain depending on how it hit the cap . A guy like Purdy proves you can win on a loaded team . Geno can win on a non loaded team .

Figure it out . How do the rams etc load up on FA . Do we need a better capologist? If we’re letting him walk thinking we’re stealing Carr for 20 think again . He will have a market as well . After Russ the FO will want nothing to do with a high dollar franchise FA like Jackson or god forbid Rodgers . Baker ? Run Lock out there ? Start a top 5 rookie , we started a rookie once ? What specifically would you all prefer over Geno at 20 which ain’t happening ?

[RiverDog]

Anyone get a load of Allen yesterday ? How about Dak? Man if Genos 23 points in that stadium was “write back “ what was all that ?
Gotta go qb!!!!! Get the next Josh Allen . Didn’t look like Stephon Diggs even wants to play with him after that . He apparently left the stadium within minutes of the game . I love Josh but is he Kirk Cousins with swag , can’t win the big one ?

The Bills got a grand total of 37 yards rushing out of their running backs. If you insist on comparing Allen to Geno, how did Geno perform when we had a similar output from our RB's? Hint: Check the Bucs and Raiders games. On the opposite side of the field, Burrow got 4 times the rushing yards from his running backs. Quarterback play IMO was relatively equal, with the difference coming in the rushing/lack of a rushing game.

Having said that, I was astounded with how well the Bengals offensive line held up with two starters out. That has to be the performance of the weekend, but not many fans pay a lot of attention to the big uglies.

[Hawktawk]

Geno 16 on jello vs Tompon. 34!!!! On the raiders . Hello ? With a quick whistle on a Jacobs fumble and a 4:13 search in New York for evidence that didn’t exist to overturn a 12 yard completion . Then we had to listen to people say Geno couldn’t win the big one you mentioned the 2 games that piss me off more than any in a long time .

If we had the bills defense we’d have won 12. Might have forced a few punts from the 9ers . Plus that’s Josh Freakin Allen . Not sad sack 15 million Geno .
Joe Burrow is the most dangerous qb in the league .

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Anyone get a load of Allen yesterday ? How about Dak? Man if Genos 23 points in that stadium was “write back “ what was all that ?
Gotta go qb!!!!! Get the next Josh Allen . Didn’t look like Stephon Diggs even wants to play with him after that . He apparently left the stadium within minutes of the game . I love Josh but is he Kirk Cousins with swag , can’t win the big one ?

It's the dumbest sound bite of the season. Geno says he didn't write back after the Week 1 win against the Broncos. He then proceeds to throw for 4,282 yards, 69.8% completion, with 30 tds and 11 ints while getting 9 wins and a playoff birth with a young, under-manned roster and then loses in Santa Clara to one of the most loaded rosters in the league largely because the defense falls apart. And they call that "writing back". Some low-brow, low-hanging fruit; they can do better.

The Bills got a grand total of 37 yards rushing out of their running backs. If you insist on comparing Allen to Geno, how did Geno perform when we had a similar output from our RB's? Hint: Check the Bucs and Raiders games. On the opposite side of the field, Burrow got 4 times the rushing yards from his running backs. Quarterback play IMO was relatively equal, with the difference coming in the rushing/lack of a rushing game.

Having said that, I was astounded with how well the Bengals offensive line held up with two starters out. That has to be the performance of the weekend, but not many fans pay a lot of attention to the big uglies.

Count me among the minority. I popped in and out of the house to finish raking leaves, and I was surprised at both the rushing yards and the lack of sacks for Buffalo's defense, and at home no less. It should have been exploitable, but Buffalo couldn't find a way or Cinci schemed and practiced really well. Very impressed with that outing by that unit.

[NorthHawk]

The winners won the battle of the Line of Scrimmage. That's the takeaway.

[Hawktawk]

The winners won the battle of the Line of Scrimmage. That's the takeaway.

Bengals dominated with 3 starting O linemen out . 2 lost this week .

[obiken]

Anyone get a load of Allen yesterday ? How about Dak? Man if Genos 23 points in that stadium was “write back “ what was all that ?
Gotta go qb!!!!! Get the next Josh Allen . Didn’t look like Stephon Diggs even wants to play with him after that . He apparently left the stadium within minutes of the game . I love Josh but is he Kirk Cousins with swag , can’t win the big one ?


There is still Burrow and Mahomes but they aren’t in this draft I don’t think but who knows ? I’m the biggest fan in the world of Geno and I don’t know myself what to do but if you get 3 years of Geno for 90 maybe one voided 50-60 guaranteed it’s looking like a bargain depending on how it hit the cap . A guy like Purdy proves you can win on a loaded team . Geno can win on a non loaded team .

Figure it out . How do the rams etc load up on FA . Do we need a better capologist? If we’re letting him walk thinking we’re stealing Carr for 20 think again . He will have a market as well . After Russ the FO will want nothing to do with a high dollar franchise FA like Jackson or god forbid Rodgers . Baker ? Run Lock out there ? Start a top 5 rookie , we started a rookie once ? What specifically would you all prefer over Geno at 20 which ain’t happening ?

Okay HT, Geno or Dak, Geno; Geno or Kurt Cousins, Geno; Geno or Daniel Jones, Geno; Geno or Derrick Carr, Derrick. how's that for brutally honesty little Hawky!

[RiverDog]

The winners won the battle of the Line of Scrimmage. That's the takeaway.

Bengals dominated with 3 starting O linemen out . 2 lost this week .

Like I said in the other thread, that has to be the most impressive performance of the 4 games this weekend, especially when it came against the Bills, ranked 5th in overall defense and 5th against the run. But I wouldn't use it as a template to build a team around.

[obiken]

Like I said in the other thread, that has to be the most impressive performance of the 4 games this weekend, especially when it came against the Bills, ranked 5th in overall defense and 5th against the run. But I wouldn't use it as a template to build a team around.

Mahomy or Burrow? Mahomy but its not a huge gap, we will see this Sunday. I think these will be another NFC AFC classic games. IF there is a blowout to be had its the Eagles over the 9ers, the 9ers running with a rookie QB, I just dont see the 9ers winning on the road.

[obiken]

One more thing, I dont think the Hawks get to the NFC title game with a Geno Smith, I just dont! There are a lot more pieces we need on both sides of the ball, to get us past teams with good defenses, and GS is not that great against good defenses. GS barely beat a decimated Ram team that was the shell of the team they had last year, and it took a lot of luck and bad calls just to get us into the playoffs. We are along ways off, from a bonafide playoff contender. Come on, GS or DCarr, for 25 to 30 million, give me a break, its Carr hands down. My question is, IF Geno and the Hawks cannot come to an agreement, who is going to pay Geno Smith more than us? IF you cut GS today, who would bid on him, a couple of teams, Derrick Carr, right now has 5!!

[Aseahawkfan]

The winners won the battle of the Line of Scrimmage. That's the takeaway.

My takeaway was Buffalo hasn't been the same since losing Von Miller and no run game in a snowy game in Buffalo favored Cinci big time. Buffalo has no run game and no pass rush without Von Miller. Cinci is a far more complete team.

[RiverDog]

The winners won the battle of the Line of Scrimmage. That's the takeaway.

My takeaway was Buffalo hasn't been the same since losing Von Miller and no run game in a snowy game in Buffalo favored Cinci big time. Buffalo has no run game and no pass rush without Von Miller. Cinci is a far more complete team.

Losing Von Miller definitely hurt the Bills, but it doesn't trump the fact that the Bengals had so many starters on their offensive line out. It also didn't appear to me like the field conditions were all that bad. It looked like a pretty dry snow.

[Aseahawkfan]

Losing Von Miller definitely hurt the Bills, but it doesn't trump the fact that the Bengals had so many starters on their offensive line out. It also didn't appear to me like the field conditions were all that bad. It looked like a pretty dry snow.

I still say O-line is over-rated if you have a good RB and QB. Cinci is a team with both.

[Hawktawk]

Anyone get a load of Allen yesterday ? How about Dak? Man if Genos 23 points in that stadium was “write back “ what was all that ?
Gotta go qb!!!!! Get the next Josh Allen . Didn’t look like Stephon Diggs even wants to play with him after that . He apparently left the stadium within minutes of the game . I love Josh but is he Kirk Cousins with swag , can’t win the big one ?


There is still Burrow and Mahomes but they aren’t in this draft I don’t think but who knows ? I’m the biggest fan in the world of Geno and I don’t know myself what to do but if you get 3 years of Geno for 90 maybe one voided 50-60 guaranteed it’s looking like a bargain depending on how it hit the cap . A guy like Purdy proves you can win on a loaded team . Geno can win on a non loaded team .

Figure it out . How do the rams etc load up on FA . Do we need a better capologist? If we’re letting him walk thinking we’re stealing Carr for 20 think again . He will have a market as well . After Russ the FO will want nothing to do with a high dollar franchise FA like Jackson or god forbid Rodgers . Baker ? Run Lock out there ? Start a top 5 rookie , we started a rookie once ? What specifically would you all prefer over Geno at 20 which ain’t happening ?

Okay HT, Geno or Dak, Geno; Geno or Kurt Cousins, Geno; Geno or Daniel Jones, Geno; Geno or Derrick Carr, Derrick. how's that for brutally honesty little Hawky![/quote]

Carr is interesting . But he will be in demand elsewhere too . Frankly for this system I think the best “ win now “ formula is likely a Geno #1 and # 2 on paper you say Carr but Lock remains an unknown . Plus Carr won’t come any cheaper imo . It’s Goff money . A top of second tier paycheck . 30 mil . If Seattle truly wants to avoid paying 25 plus million they need Lock or equivalent vet ( why not stay in house ?) who can be had for a similar deal to Geno . Or you take the rookie , probably Levis is who would likely be there . Keep Lock cheap and let them compete . If John thinks QBOTF is in a later round all the better . One consideration for Geno has to be whether they do plan to take a rookie in the first round because there will be pressure to start him . I don’t think Geno wants to go to another camp as a potential backup whatever the contract . I think it’s much more likely they take one if Geno leaves
Last of all Obi I am a 6’ 265 lb dude , widebody , mostly gristle powerful man at 63. Definitely not a little Hawky

[Hawktawk]

So to clarify PFF indeed lists Geno as their 2nd overall FA target after all with a DVOA of 3.01 over mean . In other words they say worth 3 games a year . I’m not sure I buy that some of the games were such a cluster on both sides of the ball . But smiths has him at +2 as well .
He’s got some ammunition .

[NorthHawk]

If the other teams offer him too much, then let him go. After all, it's the beginning of lying season.
He's in an extreme QB friendly Offense here that Waldron has implemented. Even Pete said that earlier fwiw.
So other QBs could do as well or maybe better than Geno with what we are doing.
If you look at the last half of the season, he's not worth top QB money and maybe not even 2nd tier money. Will that trend to the middle continue is what all teams have to take into account.
His age is also working against him.
If we sign him to anywhere near $30M/ year it means we are looking to win now and we just don't have the horses to do that even with another draft haul. It will take a couple of years for
the rookies to settle in and in the mean time we will have wasted most of the Cap space on a QB that will only get us to remain mired in the middle, treading water waiting for our Participation Badge.

[tarlhawk]

I see a lot of comments akin to "treading water" "participation badges" and similar ...where's our SB push...where's our John Bosa. If you want your "team" to tank and get a few high pick drafts in...then its no wonder you "bail" ...asking for Pete on the chopping block because Pete works well with instilling confidence in a team transitioning to youth. A team transforming into real tangible talent can easily give the appearance of "treading water" but good coaching at all the levels evaluates what the average fan doesn't see.

As a personal opinion...as a fan...I like to see effort and hope in every game played. The effort allows me the cardiac effect of believing my team is "in it" till the final outcome brings it all home...the agony of hard fought defeat...and the exhilaration of a challenging victory. The implied hope is observed in the many improvements ...both small and large...as a season ends with the expectation that next year can be even better. I was ready to "bite the bullet" and suffer through a "horrendous" season as I set my expectations at a low bar...but Pete and Geno/Shane "delivered" in keeping me engaged as the season bore on ...with early injury losses to two very "key" players...Rashard Penny and Jamal Adams!

This defense was predicated on utilizing the power/speed mix of Penny(to keep our defense "fresh")...and the explosive run killing of Jamal Adams. Ken Walker III eased the loss of Penny...while Ryan Neal thrived in a defense schemed to feature the strong safety. Neal has impact...but Adams is a thumper (hammer). Can the return of either Penny (must be re-signed) or Adams (another serious derailing injury) add to our 2023 hope? ...the glass is half full and a bit murky...but if Schneider can deliver another excellent draft yield...then that glass becomes half full with clear expectations of improvement in 2023. Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

I see a lot of comments akin to "treading water" "participation badges" and similar ...where's our SB push...where's our John Bosa. If you want your "team" to tank and get a few high pick drafts in...then its no wonder you "bail" ...asking for Pete on the chopping block because Pete works well with instilling confidence in a team transitioning to youth. A team transforming into real tangible talent can easily give the appearance of "treading water" but good coaching at all the levels evaluates what the average fan doesn't see.

No one said that this team should tank, or intentionally lose games to attain higher draft picks. And furthermore, no one in this forum that I am aware of, and certainly not me, has come out and said that Pete should be fired. What we're talking about is two different standards of acceptability.

Some people in here are perfectly content to be a .500ish, one-and-done playoff team under the guise that once you make the playoffs, anything is possible, ignoring the fact that catching lightening in a bottle rarely happens.

And if that's all it takes to float a person's boat, then good for them. In a way, I envy such people, the way they are so easily satisfied. A C+ grade out of a son or daughter is fine and dandy, worthy of a pat on the back and a "nice try, son!". Give them their participation badge. The bland, expensive dinner that the white tablecloth restaurant served deservers a 30% tip, not a bad review on Yelp. After all, years ago that same cook once served the best food in town. Yes, life would be so much more fulfilling for me if I weren't so demanding and so much of a perfectionist. Don't worry, be happy!

[Hawktawk]

Wednesday presser JS was asked if he thinks they will sign Geno “ I do “ he went on to say they intend to resign Lock as well , calling it an “ ideal situation “.

[c_hawkbob]

This is the time of year everyone lies. Especially going into the draft with their all time high early draft capitol I don't think John and Pete are going to be tipping their hand going into the draft. I think he's saying what he is expected to say.

[RiverDog]

This is the time of year everyone lies. Especially going into the draft with their all time high early draft capitol I don't think John and Pete are going to be tipping their hand going into the draft. I think he's saying what he is expected to say.

I agree 100%. Do you remember what it was that Pete said almost a year ago about a rumored Russell Wilson trade? He said that we had "no intention" of trading Russell, then less than 2 weeks later, they announce one of the biggest, most complicated trades in league history. You can't trust what anyone says. It's a dirty part of the game, having to be so untruthful to fans that are so faithful, but it's something they have to do.

I would be very surprised if we resigned both Geno and Lock before the draft, as doing so would be a strong indication that we have no intention of taking a quarterback with our #5 overall. Assume for a minute that the Bucs, sitting at #19 overall, are highly interested in a QB and want to move up into the top 10 to get one that they have their eye on. Do they trade with us at #5 or with the Lions at #6? If they think that we're hell bent for leather on a QB, they're going to offer us a king's ransom for that #5 pick.

[tarlhawk]

Isn't there the reality that NFL coaches...business CEOs...Gov't officials having classified information...and anyone in general who holds information that upon release can impact (often negatively) negotiations in progress if they're careless enough to give full disclosure. Why do people expect...even demand such transparency just to satisfy their viewers thru the media resources paid to "get the dirt"? As fans we should expect to get reports on the "results" of decisions being made...not the ongoing plans still in transition.

Coaches have to offer guarded responses to questions posed by the media that can impact team morale during the "down time" between seasons. Did we really expect Pete to say ...Russel Wilson has made it clear he wants out and as soon as we can unload him and his very expensive contract we will...lets hope Denver will make us an offer we can't refuse...? Perhaps RW made it clear that until a trade was actually consummated as a done deal...that management must not release any bad PR if he is expected to sign off on his "no trade clause"?

My point is...the NFL is a business first/entertainment 2nd kinda institution that relies heavily on sponsorship "buy-in" to keep investors happy. Perhaps some team owners have deeper football loyalty but the reality is their investors want to see a "return" on their investment regardless of any vain enjoyment in the sport itself. Business is "tight lipped" with what goes on behind closed doors where decisions are weighed and executed. Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

Isn't there the reality that NFL coaches...business CEOs...Gov't officials having classified information...and anyone in general who holds information that upon release can impact (often negatively) negotiations in progress if they're careless enough to give full disclosure. Why do people expect...even demand such transparency just to satisfy their viewers thru the media resources paid to "get the dirt"? As fans we should expect to get reports on the "results" of decisions being made...not the ongoing plans still in transition.

Coaches have to offer guarded responses to questions posed by the media that can impact team morale during the "down time" between seasons. Did we really expect Pete to say ...Russel Wilson has made it clear he wants out and as soon as we can unload him and his very expensive contract we will...lets hope Denver will make us an offer we can't refuse...? Perhaps RW made it clear that until a trade was actually consummated as a done deal...that management must not release any bad PR if he is expected to sign off on his "no trade clause"?

My point is...the NFL is a business first/entertainment 2nd kinda institution that relies heavily on sponsorship "buy-in" to keep investors happy. Perhaps some team owners have deeper football loyalty but the reality is their investors want to see a "return" on their investment regardless of any vain enjoyment in the sport itself. Business is "tight lipped" with what goes on behind closed doors where decisions are weighed and executed. Go Hawks

Good points, and I agree completely. And I'll add that even if Pete said "no comment" to the unavoidable continuous stream of questions posed to him about Russell's future as a Seahawk, the media would have exploded with speculation about a trade. It would have essentially confirmed the rumors. That's why I say that it's the dirty part of the business. Lying and dishonesty is a prerequisite.

I can remember my old man as a Little League baseball coach when one of his players refused to take first base when the umpire thought he'd been hit by a pitch, telling the ump that it didn't hit him. Rather than send him to first base, the ump let him continue to hit, and on the next pitch, he struck out. Upon returning to the dugout, dad told his player "Son, you tell the truth to your parents, and you tell the truth to your teacher. But you LIE to an umpire! Sometimes lying comes with the territory.

[obiken]

This is the time of year everyone lies. Especially going into the draft with their all time high early draft capitol I don't think John and Pete are going to be tipping their hand going into the draft. I think he's saying what he is expected to say.

The first casualty in War, Politics, and the NFL draft is the truth!

[Aseahawkfan]

Will Levis does not impress me. I can't say I would feel happy to draft him at number 5. He doesn't seem very good for the modern NFL.

[RiverDog]

Will Levis does not impress me. I can't say I would feel happy to draft him at number 5. He doesn't seem very good for the modern NFL.

I haven't watched enough CFB to get a good handle on the top QB's, but of the ones I saw in the CFB playoffs, the one I was most impressed with was C.J. Stroud out of Ohio State and would love it if he fell to us, but as I've said before, I put a lot of faith in John Schneider's judgement with regards to quarterbacks, and if he pulls the trigger on Levis at #5 overall, I'm good with it. He's supposedly a Josh Allen type.

One player I wasn't impressed with was Jalen Carter, a DL out of Georgia that shows up in our #5 hole in a lot of people's mocks.

[Aseahawkfan]

I haven't watched enough CFB to get a good handle on the top QB's, but of the ones I saw in the CFB playoffs, the one I was most impressed with was C.J. Stroud out of Ohio State and would love it if he fell to us, but as I've said before, I put a lot of faith in John Schneider's judgement with regards to quarterbacks, and if he pulls the trigger on Levis at #5 overall, I'm good with it. He's supposedly a Josh Allen type.

One player I wasn't impressed with was Jalen Carter, a DL out of Georgia that shows up in our #5 hole in a lot of people's mocks.

I read Carter is a low motor-high upside guy. I don't trust low motor guys. NFL is a high motor league all the time. You can't come in and take plays off.

[Hawktawk]

I want a motor guy

[NorthHawk]

In 2021 Levis played in a system run by the former Rams OC. That’s what put him on the map.
He did very well that year and had a reasonable OL in front of him. That Offense was quite similar to
Waldrons Offense here in Seattle. If we got him, the learning curve would be much less but he’d still
have to learn the Defenses he would be facing and adapt to the speed of the NFL.

In 2022, the Offense changed and the OL lost a lot of Sr talent. He was basically either running for his life or
making great plays himself.

[Hawktawk]

This is my issue with Levis. In 21 he has scheme and protection and looks wel. 22 not so much . Beat up , nagging injury all year . Skips bowl . He was sacked 40 times by college players , a lot .
Geno was sacked 46 times by nfl players 3rd most in thr NFL, Hit hundreds of times . Took every snap , sets a couple team records , gets in playoffs .

I have come back to the franchise tag if necessary . Figure it out FO .
Put
Denver is a train wreck because they reached after Arod bailed . Why ? Qb away right ?

Most teams are . You put a team around Smith he can win it all . A little more defense , a consistent run game . A nasty center and guard .

I would take Drew Lock over Levis at this point . He’s as dynamic as Levis and has proven he can take the punishment of an NFL season . Levis has shown he can’t handle the punishment of an 11 game college season and finish it .
Fight me .
I want Stroud or none of those guys .

[NorthHawk]

Listen. It wasn't the scheme that hurt him although there was a learning curve. It was the lack of talent around him that hurt his production.
It would be like putting Tom Brady at 28 years old on the Cleveland Browns of the day. Using your logic, he wouldn't be worth a starting QB - because there was nobody around him for him to show his talents.

You're just looking for nits to pick with Levis.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Both Levis and Richardson didn't do so well against top competition. Granted, neither did Drew Lock, but that's all the more reason why I wouldn't pick either of those two up in the 1st round. I think it's a bad call to draft either of those guys in the 1st round on their physical talents and hoping they develop. There's got to be higher impact players at positions of need besides them.