Our Investment In Our Defense Since 2018

[RiverDog]

This is NOT my work and the comments are not mine, but I found it very interesting. It's from a poster in another forum who spent a lot of time and effort in breaking down our investment in our defense, both in terms of salary and draft capital, compared with other teams in the league. The rankings are through the first 13 games of the past season, or Week 14.

The important part, the summary showing a comparison of us vs. the top 8 teams in the league, is at the bottom, so if you don't want to wade through all of his homework, arrow down to closer to the bottom of the post where I've highlighted it in red.

I present to you the top 8 defenses in the NFL, and the assets they expended to build said top 8 defense through 13 games (of the 2022 season). While seeing how the Seahawks stack up. Why not Top 10? It got too muddy, there is a clear top 8, and after that 5+ plus teams could be argued for the final 2 spots. Top 8 also conveniently = Top 25%.

Rich Hill Valuation Model 2023 Draft Value Chart used to determine points for each pick. Factored in trade ups.

=================
49ERS
1ST (Yards), 1st (Points)
=================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$9.5M APY, Jimmie Ward (S)
$8.3M APY, Nick Bosa (Edge)
$17M APY, Arik Armstead (DL)
$6M APY, Samson Ebukan (Edge)
$19M APY, Fred Warner (LB)
$13.5M APY, Charvarious Ward (CB)
$8.2M APY, Dre Greenlaw (LB)
-------
Total Players: 7
Total APY in major investments = $81.5M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd'18, 70 pts. Fred Warner
3rd'18, 40 pts. Tarvarious Moore
1st '19, 717 pts. Nick Bosa
1st'20, 325 pts. Javon Kinlaw
3rd'21, 35 pts. Ambry Thomas
2nd'22, 86 pts. Drake Jackson
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (2), 2nd (1), 3rd (3), 6 picks. 1273 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: I was expecting a lot more investment with the #1 Defense. Bosa hasn't gotten paid yet, but they don't have a lot of picks invested. Only two 1sts, and one 2nd in the last 5 years.

=================
EAGLES
2nd (Yards), 7th (Points)
=================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$13M APY, Javon Hargrave (DL)
$16.7M APY, Darius Slay (CB)
$9.25M APY, Brandon Graham (Edge)
$14M APY, Fletcher Cox (DL)
$15M APY, Haasan Reddick (Edge)
$13.33M APY, Josh Sweat (Edge)
$7M APY, Derek Barnett (Edge)
$7.5M APY, Avonte Maddox (CB)
$7.25M APY, James Bradberry (CB)
-------
Total Players: 9
Total APY in major investments = $103.03M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd'18 - 39 pts. Ronald Darby (Trade: Spent #96.)
'19 - None (All Offense)
3rd'20, 35 pts. Davion Taylor
3rd'21, 65 pts. Milton Williams 139
1st'22, 355 pts. Jordan Davis (Traded up: #15 + #124 + #162 + #166)
3rd'22 52 pts. Nakobe Dean
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (1), 2nd (0), 3rd (4), 5 picks. 546 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: The Eagle have $64M in dead money on their cap, and by far the least amount of draft capitol invested into their defense. So how the hell are they doing this? Voidable years. Nearly all of their paid guys have voidable years attached to keep their cap numbers down. They are also smart and the complete opposite of the Seahawks when it comes to spending. Pash Rushers and guys who can cover. Those are the only guys getting paid on Philly's defense. Smart.

================
JETS
3rd (Yards), 6th (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$15M APY, Carl Lawson (Edge)
$14.5M APY, John Franklin-Meyers (Edge)
$8.13M APY, Quinnen Williams (DL)
$5.5M APY, Sheldon Rankins (DL)
$8.3M APY, Sauce Gardner (CB)
$17M APY, C.J. Mosely (LB)
$11M APY, D.J. Reed (CB)
$7.25M APY, Jordan Whitehead (S)
-------
Total Players: 8
Total APY in major investments = $86.68M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd'18, 67 pts. Nathan Sheppard
1st'19, 514 pts. Quinnen Williams
3rd'19, 73 pts. Jachai Polite
3rd'20, 73 pts. Ashtyn Davis
3rd'20, 57 pts. Jabari Zuniga
'21 - None (All Offense)
1st'22, 491 pts. Sauce Gardner
2nd+3rd'22, 250 pts. Jermaine Johnson II (Traded up: #35 + #69 + #163)
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (2), 2nd (1), 3rd (5), 8 picks. 1525 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: The Jets are actually what a young defense is supposed to look like. Unlike the Seahawks who get stereotyped as young because they suck, so that must mean they are young. Their only old man regular is 30 year old C.J. Mosley, and he will likely be cut or a massive paycut at the very least, after the season. 2nd most draft capital spent which will happen when you draft defense in the top 5 twice. As they are the only ones in the top 8 to do so. 1k points between those 2 players alone.

================
COMMANDERS
4th (Yards), 10th (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$10M APY, Kendal Fuller (CB)
$18M APY, Jonathan Allen (DL)
$8.6M APY, Chase Young (Edge)
$5M APY, Bobby McCain (S)
$8.5M APY, Da'Ron Payne (DL) (5th yr Option)
-------
Total Players: 4
Total APY in major investments = $50.1M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1st'18, 336 pts. Da'Ron Payne
2nd'19+2nd'20, 263 pts. Montez Sweat Trade Up (#46 + '20 2nd = #44)
1st'20, 717 pts. Chase Young
1st'21, 278 pts. Jamin Davis
3rd'21, 64 pts. Benjamin St-Juste
2nd'22 124 pts. Phidarian Mathis
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (3), 2nd (3), 3rd (1), 7 picks. 1782 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: The Commanders have the most draft capitol spent in the last 5 years despite only taking 6 players in that span. They are not spending a lot of money on defense, but they have a few 1st round D-Lineman due for new contracts soon. So that will change drastically in the next couple of years.

================
COWBOYS
5th (Yards), 3rd (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$13.33M APY, Demarcus Lawrence (Edge)
$5M APY, Jayron Kearse (S)
$6M APY, Dorance Armstrong Jr. (DL)
$5.166M APY, Anthony Brown (CB)

-------
Total Players: 4
Total APY in major investments = $29.496M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1st'18, 278 pts. Leighton Vander Esch
2nd'19, 93 pts. Trysten Hill
2nd'20, 112 pts. Trevon Diggs
3rd'20, 54 pts. Neville Gallimore
1st'21, 347 pts. Micah Parsons (Dan Quinn '21, fix the Defense.)
2nd'21, 135 pts. Kelvin Joseph
3rd'21, 63 pts. Osa Odighizuwa
3rd'21, 51 pts. Chauncey Golsten
3rd'21, 37 pts. Nahshon Wright
2nd'22 98 pts. Sam Williams
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (2), 2nd (4), 3rd (4), 10 picks. 1268 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: Jerry is spending his money on offense, while he gave the great Dan Quinn the '21 draft to rebuild, which was at the time one of the worst defenses in the NFL. Dan Quinn turned it around immediately and now has them top 5 in the league with a bunch of 2nd and 3rd round picks, and Micah Parsons of course. Dallas has spent the 2nd most picks of the top 8 with a whopping 10 in 5 years with half of those coming in '21 alone.

================
PATRIOTS
6th (Yards), 5th (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$13.625M APY, Matt Judon (Edge)
$10.4M APY, Davon Godcahaux (DL)
$7M APY, Jonathan Jones (CB)
$6M APY, Jalen Mills (CB)
$9M APY, Devin McCourty (S)
$5.5M APY, Deatrich Wise (Edge)
-------
Total Players: 6
Total APY in major investments = $51.525M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd'18, 109 pts. Duke Dawson (Traded up #63 + #117)
2nd+3rd'19, 134 pts. Joejuan Williams (Traded up #56 + #101)
3rd'19, 60 pts. Chase Winovich
2nd'20, 162 pts. Kyle Dugger
3rd+3rd'20, 85 pts. Josh Uche (Traded up #71 + #98 - #129)
3rd'20, 48 pts. Anfernee Jennings
2nd'21, 151 pts. Christian Barmore (Traded up #46 + #122 + #139)
3rd'21, 39 pts. Ronnie Perkins
3rd'22, 50 pts. Marcus Jones
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (0), 2nd (4), 3rd (7), 11 picks. 838 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: Nickel & Dime Bill. He shutters at having to pay big money to Free Agents and goes for the quantity over quality approach, similar to Pete. But unlike Pete, Bill can coach them up, turning them into a top 5 unit. Also taking the same approach in the draft with 11 selections, most amongst the top 8 defenses, but also 2nd least in draft capitol spent. Zero 1st rounders taken. That frugal SOB.


================
BRONCOS
7th (Yards), 4th (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$15.2M APY, Justin Simmons (S)
$5.2M APY, Patrick Surtain II (CB)
$10M APY, D.J. Jones (DL)
$5.5M APY, Josey Jewell (LB)
$13.9M APY, Randy Gregory (Edge)
$10M APY, Ronald Darby (CB)
-------
Total Players: 6
Total APY in major investments = $59.8M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1st'18, 468 pts. Bradley Chubb
3rd'18, 37 pts. Isaac Yiadom
3rd'19, 68 pts. Dre'Mont Jones
3rd'20, 60 pts. Michael Ojemudia
1st'21, 387 pts. Patrick Surtain II
2nd'22 80 pts. Nik Bonitto
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (2), 2nd (1), 3rd (3), 6 picks. 1100 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

# Notes: Denver is the most injured team in the NFL, yet it hasn't stopped their defense from playing amazing week in and week out. The offense not so much.
It is impressive to see how little they've invested draft wise into the defense. Chubb is gone so that just leaves Surtain II as the only significant draft invest in the last 5 years on defense.

================
BILLS
9th (Yards), 2nd (Points)
================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$20M APY, Von Miller (Edge)
$17.25M APY, Tra'Davious White (CB)
$12.66M APY, Tremaine Edmunds (LB) [5th yr. Option]
$9.75M APY, Jordan Poyer (S)
$9.625M APY, Micah Hyde (S)
$10.375M APY, Matt Milano (LB)
$8M APY, Taron Johnson (CB)
$7M APY, DaQuan Jones (DL)
$5M APY, Jordan Phillips (DL)
-------
Total Players: 9
Total APY in major investments = $99.66M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1st'18, 318 pts. Tremaine Edmunds (Traded up #22 + #65 - #154)
3rd'18, 39 pts. Harrison Phillips
1st'19, 387 pts. Ed Oliver
2nd'20, 104 pts. A.J. Epenesa
1st'21, 196 pts. Gregory Rousseau
2nd'21, 86 pts. Carlos Basham Jr.
1st'22, 251 pts. Kaiir Elam (Traded up: #25 + #130)
3rd'22, 46 pts. Terrel Bernard
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (4), 2nd (2), 3rd (2), 8 picks. 1427 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

#Notes: You can't pay your QB, and the defense or so they say. Yet here the Bills are paying Josh Allen $43M APY, and handing out mega dollars to 9 players on defense.

==================
SEAHAWKS
28th (Yards), 30th (Points)
==================

$5M+ (APY) players:
-----------------------
$17.5M APY, Jamal Adams (S)
$6.172M APY, Poona Ford (DL)
$9.527M APY, Uchenna Nwosu (Edge)
$13M APY, Quandre Diggs (S)
$9M APY, Shelby Harris (DL)
$5.517M APY, Bryan Mone (DL)
-------
Total Players: 6
Total APY in major investments = $60.72M APY

First 3 Rounds Defense the Last 5 years (Expected Starters.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd'18, 57 pts. Rasheem Green
1st'19, 203 pts. L.J. Collier
2nd'19, 124 pts. Marquise Blair
3rd'19, 51 pts. Cody Barton (Traded up #92 + #159 - #209)
1st'20, 216 pts. Jordyn Brooks
2nd+3rd'20, 127 pts. Darrell Taylor (Traded up #59 + #101)
1st+3rd'21+1st'22, 631 pts Jamal Adams (Trade: #23 + #86 + '22 #10 - '22 #109)
2nd'22, 149 pts. Boye Mafe
-----------------------------------------
Totals: 1st (4), 2nd (3), 3rd (4), 11 picks. 1558 pts of Draft Capitol spent.

Notes: Al Woods and Quinton Jefferson just came in under the threshold of $5M APY. Only 1 of the top 8 teams have expunged more draft capital than the Seahawks who have also spent more picks than any of these teams at 11. They spend their money foolishly on a bunch of runstuffers, but can't stop the run. Nwosu looks like the only one worth his money. Jamal Adams is a real albatross from his contract to the draft picks given up. A fireable offense.

If the Seahawks spend a top 5 pick on a defensive player, they will be ahead of all of these teams by a country mile on draft capitol spent. As they curently reside at 2nd out of these 9 teams. They could potentially spend 1500 points of draft capital in 2023 alone on defense in the first 3 rounds quite easily putting them at over 3,000 in the last 5 years! (Cycle out '18, add '23) Helluva job. The Seahawks have an asset expenditure with the purpose of building a top 5 defense, while falling so well short of the mark it makes you wonder…

Rankings in Major $$$ Defensive Player Investment:
------
1) EAGLES $103.03M APY
2) BILLS $99.66M APY
3) JETS $86.68M APY
4) 49ERS $81.5M APY

--> SEAHAWKS $60.72M APY <----- Are Here

5) BRONCOS$59.8M APY
6) PATRIOTS $51.525M APY
7) COMMANDERS $50.1M APY
8) COWBOYS $29.496M APY


Rankings in Major Draft Capitol Investment for Defensive Players Since 2018:
------
1) COMMANDERS 1782 pts.

--> SEAHAWKS 1558 pts. <----- Are Here

2) JETS 1525 pts.
3) BILLS 1427 pts
4) 49ERS 1273 pts
5) COWBOYS 1268 pts
6) BRONCOS 1100 pts
7) PATRIOTS 838 pts
8) EAGLES 546 pts

To say the Seahawks have drafted and invested poorly on defense since 2018 is the understatement of the century.

[NorthHawk]

Ugh!
It’s worse than I thought.
I wonder how the Offensive side fairs relative to the rest of the league.

[Aseahawkfan]

Schneider's inability to draft a quality edge rusher using all the draft capital they've used is very, very bad. The only quality pass rusher they ever drafted in-house was Frank Clark. Even when they were elite, all the pass rushers were signed or traded for like Clem, Avril, and Bennett. Not sure why Schneider has such blind spots at certain positions, but it's very sad to spend this many high picks on Edge Rusher and not produce any but a guy they let walk.

[NorthHawk]

And he let our best DT (Reed) go for nothing. At least they traded Clark for a high draft pick.
It is odd that they have never developed a good OL, either.
It seems that the LoS on both sides is a blind spot - the two recent Tackles not withstanding.

[Old but Slow]

In our last 10 drafts we have taken 5 defensive tackles in the first three rounds. In the 2d we took McDowell '17, Reed '16. In the 3d we took Rasheem Green '18, Naz Jones '17, and Jordan Hill "13. Collier is the only defensive lineman taken in the first, and he is listed as a defensive end. Other DTs we took are Quinten Jefferson and a bunch of jags. Remember Demarcus Christmas, round 6 in '17, Kristian Sokoli round 6 '15, Jimmy Staten rd 5 ''14, Jesse Williams rd 5 '13, and Jared Smith rd 7 '13.

Currently we have Woods from a trade, Mone and Ford who were undrafted, as was Adams. Jefferson was drafted in the 5th round in '16.

In the last ten drafts we have not found a single defensive tackle worth a first round choice? Sounds like neglect to me.

Defensive end is better. The picks the last few years have included Collier, the only first, but also Mafe, Tyreke Smith (who was injured this year), Taylor, Robinson and Frank Clark. Before that we took Obum Gwatchum, Cassius Marsh, and Ty Powell.

How can a coach with a rep as a defensive mastermind allow his defensive line to be approached this way?

[Aseahawkfan]

I'd take a Mebane type DT at this point. He was a solid run stuffer and anchor. He was picked by the previous regime as well.

[RiverDog]

To be fair, in that analysis, we took a big hit, both in terms of draft capital, two #1 picks, and salary due to the Jamal Adams trade and contract extension, something that none of the other teams have experienced, and we've gotten very little in return due to at least in part to the injuries he's suffered. Also, since we did the Jets such a helluva favor by doing a face plant in 2021, that 2nd first round pick yielded the #10 overall, which counted against our draft investment total. But other team's players get injured, too, and there's too big of a discrepancy for any one player or trade to account for such a dramatic difference. In addition, the research is spread over 5 years, which helps to negate the effect of a single player or trade adversely affecting the ranking.

I keep hearing the Pete/John apologists tell me how great a coach/GM they are, how every team has their busts, how many times we've made the playoffs, that we should feel fortunate to have them as our head coach/GM, yada yada yada. The information contained in this post couldn't do a better job of quantifying why it is that I've lost so much confidence in Pete and John's judgement in being able to draft and retain good defensive talent over the past few years, that it's not just me being a spoiled, impatient fan.

And yes, it would be interesting to see a similar break down on our offensive investments over the same period of time. However, our offense, relative to the defense, hasn't performed as badly as the defense has. Plus, Pete's long suit is defense. You would expect the offense to lag some under a defensive orientated head coach.

[govandals]

To be fair, in that analysis, we took a big hit, both in terms of draft capital, two #1 picks, and salary due to the Jamal Adams trade and contract extension, something that none of the other teams have experienced, and we've gotten very little in return due to at least in part to the injuries he's suffered.

Exactly what I was thinking as I read this.

Another thing to consider is player development. Feels like we haven't seen much of that on the D line. Is it the players? The coaching? Would these guys be better on other teams?

[Hawktawk]

That is bad . I’ll point out Darryl Taylor had 9.5 sacks so he may in fact have the upside we hoped for . McDowell is an unknown as is Blair because he was never the same after Injury . Barton is maybe the worst mike we ever had , at least Saturday .
Talent is a huge issue . Fundamentals such as taking good angles and especially tackling are a huge issue . They can’t get off holds ( that’s nfl blocking now ) but you have to .
This 3-4 has been a disaster . The last 5 years or so they started bad and gradually improved . This year was horrible then weeks 6-9 awesome then terrible till week 16 then good then abysmal in Saturday’s game .

Last year we lost games giving up 13, 15, 17 .19. This year we lost games scoring 23 twice , 24, 32,34. I think it’s lots of things . As awesome as Pete and john have done on the balance I’m tired of this defense . Nauseated .

[RiverDog]

In our last 10 drafts we have taken 5 defensive tackles in the first three rounds. In the 2d we took McDowell '17, Reed '16. In the 3d we took Rasheem Green '18, Naz Jones '17, and Jordan Hill "13. Collier is the only defensive lineman taken in the first, and he is listed as a defensive end. Other DTs we took are Quinten Jefferson and a bunch of jags. Remember Demarcus Christmas, round 6 in '17, Kristian Sokoli round 6 '15, Jimmy Staten rd 5 ''14, Jesse Williams rd 5 '13, and Jared Smith rd 7 '13.

Currently we have Woods from a trade, Mone and Ford who were undrafted, as was Adams. Jefferson was drafted in the 5th round in '16.

In the last ten drafts we have not found a single defensive tackle worth a first round choice? Sounds like neglect to me.

Defensive end is better. The picks the last few years have included Collier, the only first, but also Mafe, Tyreke Smith (who was injured this year), Taylor, Robinson and Frank Clark. Before that we took Obum Gwatchum, Cassius Marsh, and Ty Powell.

How can a coach with a rep as a defensive mastermind allow his defensive line to be approached this way?

To be fair, we haven't had all that many first round picks in the past 10 years as we've spent them in trades, ie Percy Harvin, Jimmy Graham, and Jamal Adams x2. But that doesn't diminish your point which dove tails with the OP, that we've made some really bad decisions over the years, particularly on defense and especially considering Pete's "rep as a defensive mastermind", and we're paying for them now.

[NorthHawk]

Sure, but all this trading down past good players and trading away draft picks is part of the investment in talent including along the DL and OL.
It's been a constant theme. Trading away a Pro Bowler in Unger without a viable replacement ready, releasing Reed and not even getting a draft pick, stating the need for a pass rusher and trading past TJ Watt,
drafting Tackles and when they wash out there moving them to Guards and trying them at Center (because they haven't addressed Center). There just hasn't been any real concern about the interior of the Lines
of Scrimmage for this regimes tenure. Last year we drafted bookend OT's. It remains to be seen if they think they've solved the OL issue. If they do we will continue to have problems on short yardage and
pass protection up the middle.

[RiverDog]

As awesome as Pete and john have done on the balance I’m tired of this defense . Nauseated .

As awesome as Pete and John have done on balance? Over the past 5 years, what is it that they've done that would outweigh, to the point of "awesomeness," the horrible job that they've done on the defensive side of the ball? Or have you still not sobered up from the high of our Lombardi and near Lombardi seasons?

I hate to pop your bubble, but our offense hasn't been all that great, either, nowhere near good enough to offset what we've done on defense, and certainly not enough to carry a team with such a poor defense. Over that period of time, we are just 1-4 in the playoffs with 3 one-and-done's.

Here's our offensive ranking, by total yards, over the past 5 years:

2022 13th
2021 20th
2020 17th
2018 18th
2017 15th

While that is a better statistical performance than the defense, we've still haven't come close to fielding a top 10 offense over that period of time.

[NorthHawk]

Desai is interviewing for the Browns DC.
Isn't that a step down from being an Associate Defensive HC?
If so, does it mean that we are considering the 3-4 as somewhat of a failure and going to move back to a 4-3?
Maybe I'm just reading something into this that's not there.

[RiverDog]

Desai is interviewing for the Browns DC.
Isn't that a step down from being an Associate Defensive HC?
If so, does it mean that we are considering the 3-4 as somewhat of a failure and going to move back to a 4-3?
Maybe I'm just reading something into this that's not there.

I don't know what our organizational structure looks like. Tom Cable was assistant HC but he was never a coordinator.

The visual wouldn't look good if we change defensive schemes again as it would appear as if we're flailing around in desperation.

[govandals]

Desai is interviewing for the Browns DC.
Isn't that a step down from being an Associate Defensive HC?
If so, does it mean that we are considering the 3-4 as somewhat of a failure and going to move back to a 4-3?
Maybe I'm just reading something into this that's not there.

Didn't Pete comment on this a week or 2 ago? Or am I imagining it? I swear he stated there would be no scheme changes. Maybe he changes his mind if Desai leaves, though. They really don't have enough proper players for a 3-4 right now but that can change with the draft.

[NorthHawk]

Didn't Pete comment on this a week or 2 ago? Or am I imagining it? I swear he stated there would be no scheme changes. Maybe he changes his mind if Desai leaves, though. They really don't have enough proper players for a 3-4 right now but that can change with the draft.

I don't know if you were imagining it at all but I haven't heard all of his press conferences or interviews.
Then again, Pete has said a lot of stuff over the years that didn't end up being true, so if Desai leaves it might throw a wrench into the works.

[Hawktawk]

As awesome as Pete and john have done on the balance I’m tired of this defense . Nauseated .

Rd” As awesome as Pete and John have done on balance? Over the past 5 years, what is it that they've done that would outweigh, to the point of "awesomeness," the horrible job that they've done on the defensive side of the ball? Or have you still not sobered up from the high of our Lombardi and near Lombardi seasons?

I hate to pop your bubble, but our offense hasn't been all that great, either, nowhere near good enough to offset what we've done on defense, and certainly not enough to carry a team with such a poor defense. Over that period of time, we are just 1-4 in the playoffs with 3 one-and-done's.

Here's our offensive ranking, by total yards, over the past 5 years:

2022 13th
2021 20th
2020 17th
2018 18th
2017 15th

While that is a better statistical performance than the defense, we've still haven't come close to fielding a top 10 offense over that period of time.[/quote ]


Here we go quoting yards again.How about points ? I know this year we were 4th in scoring at one point . How about wins? I’d guess top 5 easy last 13 years . How about playoffs ? 10 of 13 years . And yeah I’ll get over winning the Super bowl Never. Who could ? Or going back to back . Who all has done that ? Yeah he gave Russ a chance to be the mvp but he didn’t see the man that tore our hearts out . Still , yeah playoffs doesn’t float your boat gotta win it all or it’s a bad season . As bad as yesterday wound up we had the lead at the half and 3rd and 2 deep in their end down 6 with 3 to play in the 3rd except Lewis was a millimeter downfield . Next play comes the fumble game over with the defenses inability to stop the #1 SCORING offense averaging 34 points a game with Purdy . They gave up 181 yards after catch . Our secondary’s inability or unwillingness in run support needs to enter the discussion .

Point being you get in you have a chance . My bottom line yes they have been excellent at winning overall and this year was amazing . Lots of faults but wouldn’t trade the last 13 years for anything . Thankful .

[Hawktawk]

Jody might decide if there are gonna be changes. There will be a meeting I’m sure . She’s watched it all year like the rest of us . As for Desai if I had work elsewhere I’d take it .

[Hawktawk]

Desai is interviewing for the Browns DC.
Isn't that a step down from being an Associate Defensive HC?
If so, does it mean that we are considering the 3-4 as somewhat of a failure and going to move back to a 4-3?
Maybe I'm just reading something into this that's not there.

GV”Didn't Pete comment on this a week or 2 ago? Or am I imagining it? I swear he stated there would be no scheme changes. Maybe he changes his mind if Desai leaves, though. They really don't have enough proper players for a 3-4 right now but that can change with the draft.[/quote]
This is the thing . I listen to guys like Wyman and KJ and the first thing they say is “ well I’m not really a 3-4 guy . Second I’d that Al Woods is the only interior guy suited for it . Have not looked it up but I bet our scoring defense was better last year with Norton and lots of these same guys . Why did we do this ?

[RiverDog]

Here we go quoting yards again.How about points ? I know this year we were 4th in scoring at one point.

The reason most stats gurus use yards for appraising offensive and defensive performance instead of points is because yards are the exclusive possession of the defense and/or offense. As you know, points can be scored by the offense, defense, and by special teams, so it's difficult to separate them out and assign them to the correct unit. But no matter. In 2022, our offense was ranked 13th in points, exactly the same ranking as in yards, and for your pleasure, here's our ranking over the past 5 years based on points:

2022 13th
2021 16th
2020 8th
2019 9th
2018 8th

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/s ... asontype/2

So much for being "top 5 easy".

Secondly, the research done in the OP was performed in yards and it was limited to 5 years. It was done by an independent fan, not a sportswriter that does this stuff for a living, just a couch potato like you and me. He also limited the comparisons to just the top 8 defensive teams as of Week 14 this past season. Even with those limitations, it took him many, many hours to complete his research. If you don't like it, if you think it's cherry picking or that he fudged on his numbers, or whatever, then you're free to do one on your own to counter it.

Like I said, if you're still drunk from the Lombardi and near Lombardi seasons, if that SB XLVIII Champions tee shirt is still readable, then fantastic! Let's never change what we're doing, because you're perpetually satisfied, and I should be, too. Let Pete and John coach for the next 10, 20 years. Who cares how they perform, we have our Lombard, right?

Up until the Russell trade, you were disgusted with our performance, our playoff record since 2015. Now, all of a sudden, our performance over the past 7 years is not that bad because "we have a chance". What gives?

[Hawktawk]

Reading comprehension needed . I said we were top 5 in WINS last 13 years . So no defense and no offense but lots of wins . As for how I felt pre trade it wasn’t like you where it’s all Pete’s fault . We want to win . It’s easy to see there were things wrong in the locker room as all that unfolded and I felt he deserved another chance . 1 year I said it on the forum so once again you’re jacking up the facts . I’ll always cherish our Super Bowls including the second we got to in spite of Russ and lost in large part because of him. You don’t win 12 games without talent . I will always love Pete and John and think thet did an amazing thing this year and I think only a heretic would think otherwise . Still though I look around and see a team that shut down 2 playoff teams at one point in the season , played well at times and played poorly at times and atrocious at times with the same guys . How much is preparation ? Conditioning ? Coaching . Among other issues in Munich Bowles took Pete’s lunch money . So did Josh McDaniel . So did Steve Wilks . So did Dennis Allen . Players are only as good as the coach . Is it they can’t draft or they can’t coach . Motivate had never been a question but I saw some guys taking it easy late in games we needed . Tackling . That’s coaching and being in the right place to make a tackle .

I’m no fanboy period . Of any coach or player . If they can’t do it I’m outta here . Russ was getting there . I think Pete earned 1 more this year but I would neither be shocked nor devastated if he isn’t here . Looking at the Bengals , giants , bills , 9ers etc , even Peterson in Jax. Pete’s time may be near . We may never see even the few years of excellence he brought here but time waits for no one .

[RiverDog]

Reading comprehension needed . I said we were top 5 in WINS last 13 years .

OK, fair enough on the wins. My mistake. But you're having to reach back a LONG way to make it work. The three years from 2011-2014, the long past LOB years, when we averaged 12 wins per season, heavily skews that result (of which you have yet to present). What's more important is what have you done for me recently, ie the past 5 years. The OP, after all, is using the past 5 seasons, NOT the past 13. If you want to start a nostalgia thread celebrating the LOB, then go ahead. But this one is a little more contemporary.

In the past 4 years, the Rams have been to two NFCCG's and the Niners two. Combined they've been the NFC's representative in the SB 3 of the past 4 years, with a good chance of that becoming 4 of the past 5 this season. We're no longer the dominant team in our division like we used to be. For the past 8 seasons, we've been nothing more than an also-ran. You're living in the past, the same thing that you and I used to tease those Cowboys and Niners trolls back in the old PI forum.

[NorthHawk]

This years draft is crucial for the future of the franchise. We know what’s needed but will they go back to playing the trade down past top talent game again or will they take solid players at positions of need? With 4 picks in the top 51, we can’t afford to
miss on many like we have done in the past.

[RiverDog]

This years draft is crucial for the future of the franchise. We know what’s needed but will they go back to playing the trade down past top talent game again or will they take solid players at positions of need? With 4 picks in the top 51, we can’t afford to
miss on many like we have done in the past.

That goes without saying. I don't think there's ever been a time in our franchises' history where we've had 4 picks in the top 50ish. Especially when you consider how poorly PC/JS have managed our draft capital over the past 5 seasons as demonstrated in the OP, it's imperative that we make this one count.

[NorthHawk]

Every year is important of course, but this year is even more so because we have set most of the base in last years draft and we have to both finish that work and look to the future.
If we mess it up we will continue to flounder in limbo or sink to the bottom, but if we hit on another group of real good players we can set up for the long term.

[RiverDog]

Have not looked it up but I bet our scoring defense was better last year with Norton and lots of these same guys . Why did we do this ?

Our scoring defense was slightly better in 2021 (21.5 ppg) than it was in 2022 (23.6 ppg). But there's a reason for that: Turnovers. In 2021, we had just 13 giveaways (7 INT's, 6 FUM, +5). In 2022, we had 23 (12 INT's, 11 FUM, +2), roughly 45% more turnovers than the previous season. That has an effect on scoring defense that can't be attributed to the defensive unit.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/v ... asontype/2

That's why it's problematic to use scoring to appraise offensive and defensive performance and why most stats gurus go by total yards.

[Hawktawk]

]

Reading comprehension needed . I said we were top 5 in WINS last 13 years .

[quote="RiverDog"OK, fair enough on the wins. My mistake. But you're having to reach back a LONG way to make it work. The three years from 2011-2014, the long past LOB years, when we averaged 12 wins per season, heavily skews that result (of which you have yet to present). What's more important is what have you done for me recently, ie the past 5 years. The OP, after all, is using the past 5 seasons, NOT the past 13. If you want to start a nostalgia thread celebrating the LOB, then go ahead. But this one is a little more contemporary.

In the past 4 years, the Rams have been to two NFCCG's and the Niners two. Combined they've been the NFC's representative in the SB 3 of the past 4 years, with a good chance of that becoming 4 of the past 5 this season. We're no longer the dominant team in our division like we used to be. For the past 8 seasons, we've been nothing more than an also-ran. You're living in the past, the same thing that you and I used to tease those Cowboys and Niners trolls back in the old PI forum.[/quote]
I'm not sure why you show these records like I'm unaware of them?

But again as the premier Pete antagonist the glass is always half empty. We missed the playoffs 2 times since 2011. We have 1 sub 500 season since 2011. In 2019 we missed winning the division and HFA by 6 inches vs the 9ers as Hollister just couldn't get over the goal line.( not 8 years ago) That team was wracked with injuries at the running back position like seemingly the last 8 years .In 2020 we were 12-4 and beat the Rams to get there. In the playoffs our all world QB went 11-29 against a team we had just beaten to win the division with a pick 6 and 141 yards passing with Donald injured most of the second half of the game.

That's when the season rang "hollow" for me. Then hit too much and I sad "TRADE HIM RIGHT NOW". 21 we saw what we saw. The tumor on the organization became malignant as Russel and the Coaches differences spilled out into the open. Then Ill be damned they pull off the biggest trade in seattle history, nail it, bring in a guy at QB who in his own words "I might have been out of the league" and win 9, could have been several more and carry a lead at the half vs the likely NFC champions before folding, really right in it for almost 3 quarters before it came apart with 8 rookies on the field.
Your not a fan of pete. You never have been . But its ridiculous to say we've been an also ran in the last 8 years. 31 teams are every year. Losing in the Divisional or championship or super bowl is a loser, an also ran. If you get to the tournament year after year you have a chance. Saying we have been an also ran for 8 years is utterly ridiculous. hate speech

[RiverDog]

Your not a fan of pete. You never have been . But its ridiculous to say we've been an also ran in the last 8 years. 31 teams are every year. Losing in the Divisional or championship or super bowl is a loser, an also ran.

That's not true at all. I was initially against his hiring, but I've admitted on many occasions that I was wrong and sung his praises on a number of occasions. And I'm not calling for his head this season. I'm simply pointing out that his and JS's performance over these past 8 seasons since the demise of the LOB has been well below the standard set during the first part of their regime. There's been an undeniable slippage, which was the point of the OP.

If you get to the tournament year after year you have a chance.

That's true, but it's not the ultimate goal. If Pete were a first or second year coach, a 9-8, 7th seed, one and done playoff appearance might represent a more favorable outcome for the season. But the man has been here for 14 frigging seasons. I expect more than that from a head coach that has been here as many years as Pete has.

Saying we have been an also ran for 8 years is utterly ridiculous. hate speech

Also-rans is a hate speech? OMG! How about we contrast that with all the things you've said about Russell and then we'll talk about what qualifies as "hate".

[RiverDog]

Every year is important of course, but this year is even more so because we have set most of the base in last years draft and we have to both finish that work and look to the future.
If we mess it up we will continue to flounder in limbo or sink to the bottom, but if we hit on another group of real good players we can set up for the long term.

You're preaching to the choir. This truly is a fork in the road, very similar to the Cowboys following the Herchel Walker trade. We won't have an opportunity like this for a long time. The results of last year's draft has given me renewed faith in Pete/JS, but they have to come through.

[NorthHawk]

I'm hoping last years draft actually opened their eyes, but I have no faith that they can build a decent OL and am now wondering if they can build a DL either.
After making a shambles of the IOL after Unger was traded 8 years ago they still haven't addressed it properly and it's been about 5 years since the DL has been any good.
We've kept treading water as a result but never getting good enough to challenge after the championship years.
It all starts along the LoS.

[RiverDog]

I'm hoping last years draft actually opened their eyes, but I have no faith that they can build a decent OL and am now wondering if they can build a DL either.
After making a shambles of the IOL after Unger was traded 8 years ago they still haven't addressed it properly and it's been about 5 years since the DL has been any good.
We've kept treading water as a result but never getting good enough to challenge after the championship years.
It all starts along the LoS.

They made a pretty good start last year by taking OT's in the 1st and 3rd rounds, so maybe they've seen the light. Denver's 2nd rounder at #36 overall would be a great place to take a center. We should get one of the top 2 or 3 on the board if we go that route.

[NorthHawk]

Tackles aren't the interior of the OL. They've been going after Tackles for years but rarely Guards or Centers.

[Hawktawk]

Your not a fan of pete. You never have been . But its ridiculous to say we've been an also ran in the last 8 years. 31 teams are every year. Losing in the Divisional or championship or super bowl is a loser, an also ran.

That's not true at all. I was initially against his hiring, but I've admitted on many occasions that I was wrong and sung his praises on a number of occasions. And I'm not calling for his head this season. I'm simply pointing out that his and JS's performance over these past 8 seasons since the demise of the LOB has been well below the standard set during the first part of their regime. There's been an undeniable slippage, which was the point of the OP.

If you get to the tournament year after year you have a chance.

That's true, but it's not the ultimate goal. If Pete were a first or second year coach, a 9-8, 7th seed, one and done playoff appearance might represent a more favorable outcome for the season. But the man has been here for 14 frigging seasons. I expect more than that from a head coach that has been here as many years as Pete has.

Saying we have been an also ran for 8 years is utterly ridiculous. hate speech

Also-rans is a hate speech? OMG! How about we contrast that with all the things you've said about Russell and then we'll talk about what qualifies as "hate".[/quote ]

Lol last things first.
My hateful things about Russ like little dictator? petulant diva? hmmm. declining ? checked out? It had become clear to me before 2021 that the guy didn't care about me or my team anymore regardless of how dynamic a player he still was. I was offended. I retract nothing . Its all been proven since this trade. all of it. You've more or less called Pete a dunce, liar (used car salesman) etc. But yes to be fair you do damn him with faint praise as well.

As for 10 playoff teams in 13 years and 2 Superbowl appearances last I checked Sean Payton is the hottest candidate going, probably getting 20 million a year and some say in personnel wherever he goes. How many playoff teams in 16 years, 15 with a first ballot HOF QB who showed up plug and play? We know 1 title back in 2009, surely those T shirts are rotted away, robbed of another opportunity by corrupt officials in 19 (10 years later)but Holmgren doesnt want to hear about it and River is fine with it.

Brees retires he goes 8-9 with 3 quarterbacks despite the #3 scoring D iin the league and walks away. He cant carry Pete Carrols balls in a wheelbarrow and everyone's falling all over him. OH WAIT he only coached 15 years because he was suspended for encouraging his players to physically injure opposing players 3 years after his last SB win 14 seasons ago. One of his last acts was signing an H back Taysom Hill to a contract for something like 90 million

Do you see how you sound? How much did Don Shula win down the stretch ? How many titles with the first real gunslinger Marino? 0-1 in the mans career We win one and get to 2 with a 5-10 3rd rounder running the read option.
Its been an incredible ride. Sitting home in 21 gave me a greater appreciation for getting to the tournament every year .

See River Im not as sure as you about Pete next year and beyond. If they take a QB to develop as a franchise guy maybe just promote Waldron if not this year then next. I think Pete is a very good coach , great motivator but I also saw multiple games where we were out coached badly by opposing OCs. Shanahan owns Pete now.

My thing is I have a reverence for what the man did here regardless if I wake up and Jodi decided to clean house .

[RiverDog]

You've more or less called Pete a dunce, liar (used car salesman) etc. .

That's a f**king lie! Not once did I say anything that would even remotely suggest that I thought that Pete was some sort of moron, and even though there is plenty of things he's said that a person could use to call him a liar, I never once used such a corrosive term, even went to the trouble to say that I wasn't calling him one and even excused him for having been dishonest.

[Hawktawk]

I won’t play tit for tat . You criticize Pete a lot . I’ll leave it there . Used car salesman suggests dishonest to me although I’ve used the term as well. Pete’s not perfect . He’s been great though .

[obiken]

I won’t play tit for tat . You criticize Pete a lot . I’ll leave it there . Used car salesman suggests dishonest to me although I’ve used the term as well. Pete’s not perfect . He’s been great though .

He has been HT sorry, I like Pete, but as coach but he has botched so many drills. Shortcut, would I trade Peyton for PC, in a heartbeat. River, and Cbob would not. But yeah, salesmen try to slip you the green weenie, and PC has done that more than once.

[RiverDog]

I won’t play tit for tat . You criticize Pete a lot . I’ll leave it there . Used car salesman suggests dishonest to me although I’ve used the term as well. Pete’s not perfect . He’s been great though .

The used car salesman or some similar moniker, yes. But that's not what got me going. You suggested that I called Pete a dunce, or something to that effect. Not once have I EVER even remotely suggested that Pete was anything less than a very smart man. And there's a difference between calling or suggesting that someone is being intentionally dishonest in one or two statements, which Pete undeniably has been, and calling him a liar. A 'liar' means that they are perpetually and blatantly dishonest. It's a difference in frequency and scale.

As far as criticizing Pete, of course, I do. I've also criticized my boss, my parents, my teachers, my wife, my close friends. It doesn't mean that I don't like or respect them.

And lastly, I've always indicated that I have a very deep appreciation for what Pete has done here. Yes, he has been great, given us the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history, including our only Lombardi. But what has he done for us lately? IMO not near enough.

Having said all of that, I'll repeat my position on Pete's continuance as our HC. I am not quite there as far as calling for his head. I am not at all pleased with his performance over the past 8 seasons, but this past year, in particular the results of the Russell trade, his management of the 2022 draft, and the success of some aspects of our team this season has caused me to pull back a bit on what I was calling for at the end of last season. But I'm not going to vigorously defend him, either. My personal preference is that he retire and hand the reins over to someone else, but I could live with him for another season.

[Aseahawkfan]

The used car salesman or some similar moniker, yes. But that's not what got me going. You suggested that I called Pete a dunce, or something to that effect. Not once have I EVER even remotely suggested that Pete was anything less than a very smart man. And there's a difference between calling or suggesting that someone is being intentionally dishonest in one or two statements, which Pete undeniably has been, and calling him a liar. A 'liar' means that they are perpetually and blatantly dishonest. It's a difference in frequency and scale.

As far as criticizing Pete, of course, I do. I've also criticized my boss, my parents, my teachers, my wife, my close friends. It doesn't mean that I don't like or respect them.

And lastly, I've always indicated that I have a very deep appreciation for what Pete has done here. Yes, he has been great, given us the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history, including our only Lombardi. But what has he done for us lately? IMO not near enough.

Having said all of that, I'll repeat my position on Pete's continuance as our HC. I am not quite there as far as calling for his head. I am not at all pleased with his performance over the past 8 seasons, but this past year, in particular the results of the Russell trade, his management of the 2022 draft, and the success of some aspects of our team this season has caused me to pull back a bit on what I was calling for at the end of last season. But I'm not going to vigorously defend him, either. My personal preference is that he retire and hand the reins over to someone else, but I could live with him for another season.

Hater!

[RiverDog]

The used car salesman or some similar moniker, yes. But that's not what got me going. You suggested that I called Pete a dunce, or something to that effect. Not once have I EVER even remotely suggested that Pete was anything less than a very smart man. And there's a difference between calling or suggesting that someone is being intentionally dishonest in one or two statements, which Pete undeniably has been, and calling him a liar. A 'liar' means that they are perpetually and blatantly dishonest. It's a difference in frequency and scale.

As far as criticizing Pete, of course, I do. I've also criticized my boss, my parents, my teachers, my wife, my close friends. It doesn't mean that I don't like or respect them.

And lastly, I've always indicated that I have a very deep appreciation for what Pete has done here. Yes, he has been great, given us the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history, including our only Lombardi. But what has he done for us lately? IMO not near enough.

Having said all of that, I'll repeat my position on Pete's continuance as our HC. I am not quite there as far as calling for his head. I am not at all pleased with his performance over the past 8 seasons, but this past year, in particular the results of the Russell trade, his management of the 2022 draft, and the success of some aspects of our team this season has caused me to pull back a bit on what I was calling for at the end of last season. But I'm not going to vigorously defend him, either. My personal preference is that he retire and hand the reins over to someone else, but I could live with him for another season.

Hater!

Hehe!

[NorthHawk]

Pete has done a lot for Seattle football but his time has pretty much come to an end.
He’s had 5 years to fix the Defense and it’s still not performing well enough to compete at the highest level. He’s
even abandoned his 4-3 under scheme in an effort to improve it to no avail. He’s given up his Offensive philosophy
and that seems to have worked but we’re still in a severe talent deficit with holes all over the lineup.

I really appreciate he brought a championship and he should be celebrated for that but we’ve only won 1 playoff game
the last 6 or so years. Meanwhile the Rams have won a SB and the 49ers have gone deep into the playoffs while we watched from the sidelines.

Some people may be happy with just being competitive, but I’m one of those who thinks we should strive for a lot more.