Denver Pick Watch

[c_hawkbob]

cBob, you are on it as usual. Van Pram, the Georgia center may be among the best in a long time. He will almost certainly go in the first round. I would not be unhappy if we took him with our native pick. Besides him, Michal-Schmitz, Tippman, Stromberg, Oluwatami, and Wypler are all worthy of 2d or 3d round picks. It is actually a good year for the position, with several big, strong boys. But, Van Pram stands alone.

Thanks Old Man, I'm glad someone else sees it too (particularly you, acknowledgement from someone you respect is nice). I think the lists a lot of people are using in these discussions were put together early in the year when Van Pram was still flying below a lot of early draft radar. I expect to see some substantial changes around combine time.

[NorthHawk]

The Georgia Center is listed as a Sophomore. Was he red shirted or something?

[NorthHawk]

The NCAA has done the same thing to their bowl system as the NFL is doing with their playoffs: They've expanded it to such a degree that they're virtually meaningless. They've completely destroyed the NYD games that everyone used to be so excited to participate in. Now, unless your team is fortunate enough to be in the 4 team playoff, no one gives a rip about a bowl game. That's one of the reasons why so many players are skipping them.

Mykc is right. There are LOTS of players that skip their school's bowl game, and their coaches, administrators, and fans don't give a rip.

The Bowl schedule is a lot different, but most players don't play not because it's not important, but because they are advised that it may negatively impact their draft status if they got injured.
That's their agent's advice along with training specifically for the tests that they will see at the Combine and private workouts. There's a lot of money at stake for these guys so they are just
starting to get the feel of the business side of the NFL.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah I get it now . But one question . Is Levis the first potentially high qb pick to skip their bowl ? I can’t recall but I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I venture the wrong guess .

[Rambo2014]

And with its first pick in the 2023 draft the Seattle Seahawks choose a longsnapper

[Hawktawk]

I have a high school friend Ron Cox who was a 6’7” 3 sport stud who played at eastern and was drafted by the cavaliers before blowing his knee . He had also been offered a contract by Seattle Seahawks to play tight end . He spent his career coaching numerous championship HS teams both boys and girls . We had a little discussion on FB about the issue of skipping bowl games and he completely agreed with me . No way . If they all start doing it we gotta draft them but until then no way .

Well, sh1t, you didn't mention Ron Cox agreed with you. Had I known your buddy Ron Cox was against this I wouldn't have even questioned your stance. Now that I know your buddy, Ron Cox, also doesn't want us drafting players who skipped their bowl games I guess I will concede the point. I'm gonna send PC and JS a a quick email letting them know that Ron Cox wants us to steer clear of Levis and that we should probably look for replacements for a number of our good younger players. I'll get on that.[/quote]

I mentioned Ron in the context of the discussion because he understood what it was like to be the best player on every team he played on . He set a scoring record at eastern that lasted 4 decades plus as a 6’6” center and got drafted .

He knows what it’s like to lose your dream to injury in Cavaliers Tc. It was also the end of his attempt to catch on with the Seahawks if the NBA didn’t work out .
So Ron spent over 4 decades coaching both boys and girls teams to several titles . So Ron knows how to build a team , understands the concept of team .

Obviously we’re old fuddy duddies way behind the times . But Rons opinion is one I respect .

It’s just a world in sports now of no loyalty , every man for himself . Before and after they get to the league . It’s everybody’s fault at every level but it’s not an improvement . With this transfer portal and college guys signing deals it will only get muddier . Less recognizable compared to what I used to be a real fan of .

[RiverDog]

It’s just a world in sports now of no loyalty , every man for himself . Before and after they get to the league . It’s everybody’s fault at every level but it’s not an improvement . With this transfer portal and college guys signing deals it will only get muddier . Less recognizable compared to what I used to be a real fan of .

I completely agree with this sentiment. It's why I take a somewhat dim view of professional athletes, consider them no more than assets on a balance sheet, like plant and equipment. It's one of the big reasons why I won't wear a jersey with some player's name and number on it. Sports has changed since the days we grew up in.

[Hawktawk]

cBob, you are on it as usual. Van Pram, the Georgia center may be among the best in a long time. He will almost certainly go in the first round. I would not be unhappy if we took him with our native pick. Besides him, Michal-Schmitz, Tippman, Stromberg, Oluwatami, and Wypler are all worthy of 2d or 3d round picks. It is actually a good year for the position, with several big, strong boys. But, Van Pram stands alone.

Thanks Old Man, I'm glad someone else sees it too (particularly you, acknowledgement from someone you respect is nice). I think the lists a lot of people are using in these discussions were put together early in the year when Van Pram was still flying below a lot of early draft radar. I expect to see some substantial changes around combine time.[/quote]


Blythe is a good guy but we need a center . The stats on interior line pressures and sacks are astounding . They were a huge part of our problems . Short yardage no push .
All over a better center

[c_hawkbob]

The Georgia Center is listed as a Sophomore. Was he red shirted or something?

Yes. I don't know that he has declared yet but it's likely he will.

[NorthHawk]

We've needed a Center since they traded Unger. It hasn't happened in 6 or 7 drafts, so confidence is low that they somehow see the light and we'll continue to have IOL problems until this regime leaves.
We've thrown resources at the Tackles and some at Guards, but not much at Center over the years. Is Joey Hunt the only Center we've drafted over the years? It's pretty sad that they haven't recognized
the importance of the position thinking any failed Tackle or Guard would do.

[NorthHawk]

Thanks for the info, Bob.

[RiverDog]

We've needed a Center since they traded Unger. It hasn't happened in 6 or 7 drafts, so confidence is low that they somehow see the light and we'll continue to have IOL problems until this regime leaves.
We've thrown resources at the Tackles and some at Guards, but not much at Center over the years. Is Joey Hunt the only Center we've drafted over the years? It's pretty sad that they haven't recognized
the importance of the position thinking any failed Tackle or Guard would do.

IMO Pete and JS consider the guard and center positions as bust insurance for tackles. We've done it with Carpenter, Britt, and Ifedi. But perhaps that was more Tom Cable's influence.

Last season's draft was a distinct change in philosophy with regard to the OL, so I wouldn't be so pessimistic that a light hasn't gone off.

[mykc14]

I mentioned Ron in the context of the discussion because he understood what it was like to be the best player on every team he played on . He set a scoring record at eastern that lasted 4 decades plus as a 6’6” center and got drafted .

So Ron spent over 4 decades coaching both boys and girls teams to several titles . So Ron knows how to build a team , understands the concept of team .

Obviously we’re old fuddy duddies way behind the times . But Rons opinion is one I respect .

It’s just a world in sports now of no loyalty , every man for himself . Before and after they get to the league . It’s everybody’s fault at every level but it’s not an improvement . With this transfer portal and college guys signing deals it will only get muddier . Less recognizable compared to what I used to be a real fan of .

I am sure that Ron is a great guy, it's just funny that you mention him here like he is an authority on this subject, which he isn't. I tend to agree with the idea that you should finish what you start and be loyal to your team, but that ship has sailed for most people. With coaches leaving, the transfer portal, and NIL deals it's really not about loyalty to your school anymore it's about doing what's best for yourself. There are still guys who play their bowl games but many guys who are NFL prospects and not playing for a chance to win the national championship just skip the bowl game and really nobody cares except old fuddy duddies. For Will Levis it really wouldn't be a smart move for him to play in his bowl game. He literally has nothing to gain and everything to lose. His Offensive line is that bad. It will be interesting to see if the expanded playoff will stop more players from skipping bowl games who normally would have if they hadn't been playing for a chance at a National Championship.

[mykc14]

Yeah I get it now . But one question . Is Levis the first potentially high qb pick to skip their bowl ? I can’t recall but I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I venture the wrong guess .

He is one of them, yes. There have been others. Cody Pickett, the first QB drafted last year, skipped his bowl game. It's also important to remember with him there are other circumstances going on. The Kentucky offense was terrible. Their top running back, the only other player that will probably be drafted from Kentucky tore his ACL in week 2, their top 3 wide receivers were all Freshman. The offensive line was one of the worst in college football with freshman starting at RT and RG. Literally every offensive player besides Levis and their RB (who was hurt all year) are either Freshman or undraftable players, and the played in the SEC!! They just were not good. Levis was their offense, they didn't have anything else. In their bowl game against a bad Iowa, without Levis they only could muster 2.7 yards per play, 0 points, and 180 yards of offense. What would he have gained from playing?

[Hawktawk]

Like I say I’m up to speed . Your list of how many guys in the league skipped out was amazing to me , educational . It seems like the phenomenon was a recent thing but like everything else at my age it was longer ago then I though .

As for Levis if he’s that good we know Pete liked Allen out of college so who knows . One thing about me if I’m wrong I’m not going to try to argue . I’ll trust Pete and John and if they take him
No argument from me unless he can’t play .

[NorthHawk]

Last season's draft was a distinct change in philosophy with regard to the OL, so I wouldn't be so pessimistic that a light hasn't gone off.

Was it really though? We’ve drafted a bunch of Tackles that didn’t work out as you mentioned. So drafting more
isn’t that much of a stretch. We were also very lucky that Lucas was still there when our pick came up.
On the other hand it was business as usual for the IOL and outside of Lewis, we really haven’t paid much attention
to Guards and especially Center outside of failed Tackles which really isn’t much of a plan at all.

[Hawktawk]

We wound up with the #27 PFF line . Lucas and cross graded well , Lewis graded high but every other interior guy was bad , Curhan and Forsyth were awful , Blythe bad . I bet Geno is near a club record for sacks now .

[mykc14]

Like I say I’m up to speed . Your list of how many guys in the league skipped out was amazing to me , educational . It seems like the phenomenon was a recent thing but like everything else at my age it was longer ago then I though .

As for Levis if he’s that good we know Pete liked Allen out of college so who knows . One thing about me if I’m wrong I’m not going to try to argue . I’ll trust Pete and John and if they take him
No argument from me unless he can’t play .

And although I have been defending Levis he could totally be a bust. Drafting QB's is an inexact science at best. There have been lots of QB's who have all of the physical tools to be successful and can't hack it in the NFL. I do like him and wouldn't have a problem with us drafting him if there are no impact defensive players available, but he could end up being a bust.

[mykc14]

We wound up with the #27 PFF line . Lucas and cross graded well , Lewis graded high but every other interior guy was bad , Curhan and Forsyth were awful , Blythe bad . I bet Geno is near a club record for sacks now .

Lewis and Cross were exceptional for rookies, I was very impressed with their play. Lewis wasn't terrible but we NEED a new C and G. We should be able to get a legitimate starting center and G with our first 4 picks if PC and JS go in that direction, which would be awesome. If they do and we can keep Geno we should have a good offense in a year or two!!

[c_hawkbob]

What my favorite draftnick, Drew Boylhart has to say about Levis:

Will Levis QB Kentucky
by Drew Boylhart • December 16, 2022
STRENGTHS

Will is as close as you are going to get to a QB like the Buffalo Bills Josh Allen. He is big, strong, and competitive. He has a good strong accurate arm, with good overall mechanics and good velocity to make the impact throws in the red zone. Although he shows on film the needed velocity to throw deep, he also shows on film an easy ball to catch. Will has a high football IQ and with his size is a threat to run or throw the ball to make third downs and touchdowns. If you’re looking for a franchise quarterback in this draft then look no further. Will is the total package. He’s the type of package that you can’t wait to open on Christmas morning so as a kid, you wake up in the middle of the night, sneak down the stairs and quietly unwrap it, then wrap it back up and act surprised in the morning when everyone else is pissed that you were the only one to get exactly what you asked for. I call him Will (The Package) Levis because he is the total franchise package.

CONCERNS

Will has been hurt this season and it has limited his overall play. You can see how frustrated he is but if he is going to play and run the ball then he is going to have to learn to play more effectively with injuries. Of course, you must realize that this is nit-picking.

BOTTOM LINE: 1.43

I had to go back to Will’s junior year to get a complete picture of his potential for the next level. I was looking at his Senior film and I didn’t realize the extent and impact on his overall play, of his injuries until I watched his junior film. Will is an excellent quarterback with (like I have been saying) the total package but he will have to learn how to better play through his “future” injuries. I have no doubt that he will because he is very tough-minded. At least that’s what he has suggested on film this year while playing through his injuries. That being said, being tough-minded is not enough. A quarterback has to learn to be effective and stay on the field without the ability to use all of his athletic tools. My guess is, he will adjust and learn quickly at the next level to do just that. Will is, Josh Allen-like, athletically but as far as competitively, he still is learning. A smart team should not wait for this “total package” to be delivered to them if they need a franchise quarterback. Go and pick it up at the store before it gets lost in shipping.

[RiverDog]

That's good stuff, Cbob. Thanks!

[c_hawkbob]

You're welcome. Will is btw his top ranked QB at 1.43. Stroud is at 1.47, Young is 1.81 and Stetson Bennett at 1.92 (all first round grades).

[TriCitySam]

[quote="RiverDog"IMO Pete and JS consider the guard and center positions as bust insurance for tackles. We've done it with Carpenter, Britt, and Ifedi. But perhaps that was more Tom Cable's influence.

Last season's draft was a distinct change in philosophy with regard to the OL, so I wouldn't be so pessimistic that a light hasn't gone off.[/quote]

I think Tom Cable was responsible for most of that.

[RiverDog]

I think Tom Cable was responsible for most of that.

I think so, too. Last season's draft is one of the reasons why I am no longer calling for Pete's head.

[Aseahawkfan]

Any good second round linebackers out there? We could use a real vicious interior LB to pair with Brooks or Barton. A new Bobby but maybe more vicious against the run.

[govandals]

Yeah I get it now . But one question . Is Levis the first potentially high qb pick to skip their bowl ? I can’t recall but I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I venture the wrong guess .

Anthony Richardson did not play in his bowl game this year.

[govandals]

Any good second round linebackers out there? We could use a real vicious interior LB to pair with Brooks or Barton. A new Bobby but maybe more vicious against the run.

IMO, looks like it's a down year for inside LB's this draft.

[RiverDog]

Yeah I get it now . But one question . Is Levis the first potentially high qb pick to skip their bowl ? I can’t recall but I’m sure I’ll get corrected if I venture the wrong guess .

Anthony Richardson did not play in his bowl game this year.

Lots of potentially high draft picks skipped their college's bowl game. In 2021, Kenny Pickett and Carson Strong both skipped their school's bowl game. And it's not limited to quarterbacks, either. Here's a list of players that skipped bowl games last season:

Kayvon Thibodeaux, DE, Oregon
Treylon Burks, WR, Arkansas
Reggie Roberson, WR, SMU
Danny Gray, WR, SMU
Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame
Kyren Williams, RB, Notre Dame
Kenneth Walker III, RB, Michigan State
Kenny Pickett, QB, Pittsburgh
Leddie Brown, RB, West Virginia
Carson Strong, QB, Nevada
Brandon Smith, LB, Penn State
Garrett Wilson, WR, Ohio State
Rachaad White, RB, Arizona State
Alontae Taylor, CB, Tennessee
Breece Hall, RB, Iowa State
Sincere McCormick, RB, UTSA

https://fansided.com/betsided/posts/col ... fq02afx15m

Recognize any names, there, like Kenneth Walker?

Like mykc, I'll be interested if the expanded college football playoffs have an effect on this bowl skipping, but it's not unusual, perhaps even the norm for players to ditch them.

[Aseahawkfan]

IMO, looks like it's a down year for inside LB's this draft.

Damn.

[NorthHawk]

There are a few but no Ray Lewis or Bobby Wagner types at least looking at it right now.
But maybe a 2nd round pick could uncover a gem.
A solid class, but not spectacular. Keep in mind, the College game is different than the NFL so some of their skills that translate well to this level might not be on display very often.
That's where the Combine and private workouts come in and teams can get proper measurements and get to know the players who they think can make an impact in the NFL.

[mykc14]

There are a few but no Ray Lewis or Bobby Wagner types at least looking at it right now.
But maybe a 2nd round pick could uncover a gem.
A solid class, but not spectacular. Keep in mind, the College game is different than the NFL so some of their skills that translate well to this level might not be on display very often.
That's where the Combine and private workouts come in and teams can get proper measurements and get to know the players who they think can make an impact in the NFL.

You never know... Bobby was a second round pick.

[mykc14]

Damn.

I know could you imagine if we were able to get a good DT or OLB, a Good G/C, and a good LB or S in our first 4 picks? That would be awesome. If you have to go AB with your first pick you probably could go QB, DT, S, G or C with your first 4 picks and feel like you are getting one of the top three players at each of those positions.

[obiken]

Cbob wanting a Center is not that outta box, but we need a DT bad, worse than a Center.

[c_hawkbob]

Cbob wanting a Center is not that outta box, but we need a DT bad, worse than a Center.

Which is why I've got Jalen Carter as my preferred top pick. I don't think he'll last 5 picks but if he does I'll be disappointed if we don't pick him.

[Stream Hawk]

And with its first pick in the 2023 draft the Seattle Seahawks choose a longsnapper

Rams were 5-12. One of the absolute worst seasons following Super Bowl championship ever. The championship that was bought. You have lost any leverage to talk trash.

[TriCitySam]

Any good second round linebackers out there? We could use a real vicious interior LB to pair with Brooks or Barton. A new Bobby but maybe more vicious against the run.

A fairly solid guy that's down aways is Iowa's Jack Campbell. 6'5" 245. Great length, good tackler. 1st team Big 10, nation's leading tackler in '21, was Iowa's defensive MVP. Most aren't that tall, but his length, range and lateral agility made him very solid in the middle. Can cover, blitz and has a strong motor, called the "heart and soul" of Iowa's defense. Would likely be a late 2nd, early 3rd guy from what I read.

https://firstroundmock.com/2022/10/jack ... nfl-scout/

[obiken]

Which is why I've got Jalen Carter as my preferred top pick. I don't think he'll last 5 picks but if he does I'll be disappointed if we don't pick him.

Okay that makes sense, I was just "hoping" that with all the QB's taken, and the Bears needing a LT, we would have a good shot at him, maybe not.

[Aseahawkfan]

A good big strong safety would be nice too.

[RiverDog]

Now that the wild card round is completed, the top 23 picks are set. We're at #5 overall, Denver's selection, and #20 overall, our native pick. FYI there's only 31 first round selections in this draft as Miami was forced to forfeit their #1.

https://abc7chicago.com/sports/2023-nfl ... /12677913/

[govandals]

A good big strong safety would be nice too.

I agree. I think it's a bigger need than most people think. I do like Ryan Neal, but he is just a guy. I would be very happy with Jordan Battle or JL Skinner in round 2.