Hackett just got fired

[c_hawkbob]

Had to happen. Maybe now they'll get a coach that'll take back charge of their offense and have Russ rolling out and running play action again instead of trying to prove he's a pocket passer.

[TriCitySam]

Had to happen. Maybe now they'll get a coach that'll take back charge of their offense and have Russ rolling out and running play action again instead of trying to prove he's a pocket passer.

Russ contributed to that....he likes to do his own thing and will have to become focused on the OC's system, and not hang on the ball for 3 sec. He looks slow, so he may be nothing more than a pocket guy now.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, I had just posted about that in the Russell Wilson thread, but the topic does seem to deserve its own thread.

Hackett had clearly lost the team. There aren't very many explanations as to why a defense as good as the Broncos would allow a team as bad as the Rams are hang to a 50 burger on them except for that they've mailed it in and just gave up. Plus, there's been a couple of sideline confrontations, including one yesterday when backup QB Brett Rypien got into it with one of the Broncos offensive lineman and a few games ago when defensive lineman Mike Purcell yelled at Russell Wilson. I can only imagine what that locker room must be like.

The one thing that suprises me is that GM George Paton, the master mind behind the Russell trade and the contract extension, seems to have been given a vote of confidence by the ownership group:

https://twitter.com/Broncos/status/1607 ... 96/photo/1

The question now is who in the hell in their right mind would want to walk into that dumpster fire. Certainly, none of the top candidates that have options are going to choose to go to Denver.

And I agree with Sam. This isn't the same Russell of 5-6 years ago that pulled off so many Houdini escapes and extended plays. He has yet to recognize that he's lost a step. He took 6 sacks yesterday. He still has one of the slowest time to throw numbers in the league. That has to change if he's to reclaim his success.

[NorthHawk]

Paton might be given a temporary reprieve to get to the end of the season and select a replacement HC for the last 2 games.
Then the axe could fall with a new GM and coach before the draft.

As I said in the Wilson thread there’s always someone who wants to be an NFL HC.

[RiverDog]

Paton might be given a temporary reprieve to get to the end of the season and select a replacement HC for the last 2 games.
Then the axe could fall with a new GM and coach before the draft.

As I said in the Wilson thread there’s always someone who wants to be an NFL HC.

Did you read the statement from CEO Greg Penner with regard to Paton? I couldn't copy and paste it, but here's the gist of what he said:

I will lead our head coaching search with support from our ownership group and George (Paton), whom I have confidence in as general manager."

He'd look pretty hypocritical if he changed his mind within a few months and canned Paton. If they were going to fire their GM, the time to do it is now, before they hire a HC in January and before they decide who they want to give contracts to prior to free agency.

[RiverDog]

Here's a play from yesterday's game, Russell's 3rd INT picked off by Jalen Ramsey:

https://twitter.com/Zach_Segars/status/ ... _&ref_url=

There are some that claim that Sutton was covered, but Russ wouldn't have wanted to throw it to where Sutton was standing. He throws it 5 yards in front of him and to the sideline, forcing his receiver to come back to the ball. It's called throwing a receiver open. No way would the DB be able to make up enough ground to defend it. It would have been an easy completion. You'll also note the wide-open field, that Russell, or any other QB, could have easily run for a first down and gotten his team into scoring position as it was 2nd and 4 at the Rams' 38. But instead, Russell chose to throw the ball deep to the end zone, going for the home run. That's why Sutton was jumping up and down in protest.

It was this kind of decision making that Russell was doing for his last couple of years in Seattle and that he continues to do in Denver. He was taking low percentage deep shots in lieu of taking what the defense gives him. Although I don't like how Hawktawk characterizes Russell, he's dead on about his problems and what he has to change if he is to get back to where he once was.

[Hawktawk]

Dreaded vote of confidence .
These owners are rubes . There is no way Hackett leaves and Paton stays if you want to address the problem . Hackett took the job expecting to coach his friend and top notch qb Rodgers . Wilson was plan b and his game isn’t Rodgers . Listening to him talk admiringly about Russ “ we’re running whatever Russel wants “ it was easy to see trouble . Yeah the guy has made bad decisions and had clock issues . But I’ve run out of times watching Russ sail it to nobody , ignore or miss check downs , wide open guys , run into sack after sack . I hear let him get out of the pocket . He’s overweight and 33 . He’s slowed down but his brain doesn’t realize it . He’s lost much of his escapability.

So that’s what Hackett was working with and in the last 2 weeks he finally stood up . Sat him healthy and then pulled him in prime time . Sealed his death warrant but was a man.

No name guy or hot prospect is going to go there under the condition they are supposed to fix Russ .

[RiverDog]

Dreaded vote of confidence .
These owners are rubes . There is no way Hackett leaves and Paton stays if you want to address the problem . Hackett took the job expecting to coach his friend and top notch qb Rodgers . Wilson was plan b and his game isn’t Rodgers . Listening to him talk admiringly about Russ “ we’re running whatever Russel wants “ it was easy to see trouble . Yeah the guy has made bad decisions and had clock issues . But I’ve run out of times watching Russ sail it to nobody , ignore or miss check downs , wide open guys , run into sack after sack . I hear let him get out of the pocket . He’s overweight and 33 . He’s slowed down but his brain doesn’t realize it . He’s lost much of his escapability.

So that’s what Hackett was working with and in the last 2 weeks he finally stood up . Sat him healthy and then pulled him in prime time . Sealed his death warrant but was a man.

No name guy or hot prospect is going to go there under the condition they are supposed to fix Russ .

I agree with you about Paton, but it sure doesn't sound like they're firing him. This wasn't a news conference where they have to give an answer to a tough question that they'd rather not answer, which is why most of those "dreaded votes of confidence" are given. It was an unsolicited statement. He had no reason to address the question of the future of the GM, at least not in the statement announcing the firing of the HC.

[Hawktawk]

Here's a play from yesterday's game, Russell's 3rd INT picked off by Jalen Ramsey:

https://twitter.com/Zach_Segars/status/ ... _&ref_url=

There are some that claim that Sutton was covered, but Russ wouldn't have wanted to throw it to where Sutton was standing. He throws it 5 yards in front of him and to the sideline, forcing his receiver to come back to the ball. It's called throwing a receiver open. No way would the DB be able to make up enough ground to defend it. It would have been an easy completion. You'll also note the wide-open field, that Russell, or any other QB, could have easily run for a first down and gotten his team into scoring position as it was 2nd and 4 at the Rams' 38. But instead, Russell chose to throw the ball deep to the end zone, going for the home run. That's why Sutton was jumping up and down in protest.

It was this kind of decision making that Russell was doing for his last couple of years in Seattle and that he continues to do in Denver. He was taking low percentage deep shots in lieu of taking what the defense gives him. Although I don't like how Hawktawk characterizes Russell, he's dead on about his problems and what he has to change if he is to get back to where he once was.

What is it about my characterization of Russ thats so bad? Little emperor" Little dictator? Team cancer? Coach killer"mmmm
I didn't call him a scumbag or A Hole. Colorful language and descriptions of a disingenuous carpetbagger from a 45 year member of the 12s. NO APOLOGIES .
Have you got a load of what his former teammates are saying? There's a lot worse stuff on twitter today after he spent a minute talking to his line on the sidelines holding a football in front of his mouth like an OC would a clipboard. Those guys stared straight ahead totally ignoring him . Anyone else see that . Crucified on twitter. Ruthless

Those near fistfights on the sidelines aren't about being pissed off at hackett. That defense quit yesterday but they have been great all year with the worst offense in the league. No bad coach has that good a defense that many weeks with no offense. Russ killed a coach, damn near 2 and if hes around for another he will kill that guy too.

[Hawktawk]

I agree with you about Paton, but it sure doesn't sound like they're firing him. This wasn't a news conference where they have to give an answer to a tough question that they'd rather not answer, which is why most of those "dreaded votes of confidence" are given. It was an unsolicited statement. He had no reason to address the question of the future of the GM, at least not in the statement announcing the firing of the HC.

They told Paton pay Russ. They are fools. He is a fool.
The rest is excusable, understandable at least although some saw it coming. But you had a 2 year test drive on the guy for 70 mil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As I recall Paton had said there was "no rush" to sign an extension. A few weeks later the team was sold and Mark Rodgers was seen in the company of the Penner Walton group just a few days later. My guess he went right around Paton and fleeced these rubes.

I dont care how much dough these people have they are fools to this point and have been a part of setting this franchise back half a decade at least. Hackett was the least of their problem.

[RiverDog]

I agree with you about Paton, but it sure doesn't sound like they're firing him. This wasn't a news conference where they have to give an answer to a tough question that they'd rather not answer, which is why most of those "dreaded votes of confidence" are given. It was an unsolicited statement. He had no reason to address the question of the future of the GM, at least not in the statement announcing the firing of the HC.

They told Paton pay Russ. They are fools. He is a fool.
The rest is excusable, understandable at least although some saw it coming. But you had a 2 year test drive on the guy for 70 mil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As I recall Paton had said there was "no rush" to sign an extension. A few weeks later the team was sold and Mark Rodgers was seen in the company of the Penner Walton group just a few days later. My guess he went right around Paton and fleeced these rubes.

I dont care how much dough these people have they are fools to this point and have been a part of setting this franchise back half a decade at least. Hackett was the least of their problem.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but you're missing my point, which is that it doesn't appear as if the ownership group is going to fire the GM.

[Aseahawkfan]

Saw this coming when I first listened to Hackett. Best head coaches are control freaks who oversee every aspect of the game. Hackett was a fly by the seat of his pants coach who thought he would ride the hot hand to victory. Not how it works Hackett. You have to have control of the team. You have to know how to fix problems as they will always occur. You have to win. Hackett did none of that.

[TriCitySam]

Best head coaches are control freaks who oversee every aspect of the game. .

True for many coaches, but Hackett never had the control.....Russ did. Not saying he's HC material, but was put in a losing situation - a head coach HAS to be the one calling the shots. Not only did he not get to buy the groceries, somebody else was the cook.

[Aseahawkfan]

True for many coaches, but Hackett never had the control.....Russ did. Not saying he's HC material, but was put in a losing situation - a head coach HAS to be the one calling the shots. Not only did he not get to buy the groceries, somebody else was the cook.

If you're a head coach heading into a situation where the QB has control, you've already lost and your GM is bad.

I have no idea what level of control Russ has, no one does. People go off rumors without any knowledge of how things work inside the locker room. I doubt any coach would accept the QB having control myself, but I am not in that locker room or building so no idea how it all works over there.

Russ is a good memory for me. Always will be. His memory will be even better when we're picking in the top 3. The gift that keeps on giving.

[RiverDog]

True for many coaches, but Hackett never had the control.....Russ did. Not saying he's HC material, but was put in a losing situation - a head coach HAS to be the one calling the shots. Not only did he not get to buy the groceries, somebody else was the cook.

If you're a head coach heading into a situation where the QB has control, you've already lost and your GM is bad.

I have no idea what level of control Russ has, no one does. People go off rumors without any knowledge of how things work inside the locker room. I doubt any coach would accept the QB having control myself, but I am not in that locker room or building so no idea how it all works over there.

Russ is a good memory for me. Always will be. His memory will be even better when we're picking in the top 3. The gift that keeps on giving.

You're right. No one knows for sure how much and just what type of control Russell has or had over Hackett and the rest of the team. But we do know that Russell wanted out of Seattle in part because he wanted more input, particularly on offense, and we can infer that one of the reasons why he wanted out of here was due to a disagreement over offensive philosophy. We also know that Hackett gave every indication after the trade that Russell was going to have A LOT to say about how the offense in Denver was going to be ran, and we know that he was allowed to bring his own trainer with him to the team facility. Given those facts, I think it's a fair assumption that Russell had A LOT of control.

It's going to be a very interesting drama in the Mile High City, who ends up coaching them and what their approach towards Russell will be. Will the new HC come in and really lay down the law, make Russell give up his little perks, tell him to get rid of his personal coach, make him play in the preseason, etc? Or will it be Hackett 201?

[Hawktawk]

Saw this coming when I first listened to Hackett. Best head coaches are control freaks who oversee every aspect of the game. Hackett was a fly by the seat of his pants coach who thought he would ride the hot hand to victory. Not how it works Hackett. You have to have control of the team. You have to know how to fix problems as they will always occur. You have to win. Hackett did none of that.

Agreed 100% there’s good young coaches but they aren’t lightweights .

[Hawktawk]

True for many coaches, but Hackett never had the control.....Russ did. Not saying he's HC material, but was put in a losing situation - a head coach HAS to be the one calling the shots. Not only did he not get to buy the groceries, somebody else was the cook.

If you're a head coach heading into a situation where the QB has control, you've already lost and your GM is bad.

I have no idea what level of control Russ has, no one does. People go off rumors without any knowledge of how things work inside the locker room. I doubt any coach would accept the QB having control myself, but I am not in that locker room or building so no idea how it all works over there.

Russ is a good memory for me. Always will be. His memory will be even better when we're picking in the top 3. The gift that keeps on giving.[/quote]

I have great memories of Russ as well . I had to buy a metcalf because a 3 game day is all I ever wore . It’s complicated .

It’s not a rumor that Russ had a great deal of input into the training camp , offense , practice etc . Widely reported on in Denver media . Asked what the offense would look like this year “ whatever Russ wants “
After watching Pete and Russ butt heads post game last year I knew it had disaster written all over it having a coach who worshiped him , seemed intimidated .

Had we made one less stop in the opener who knows . I’m a guy that felt at the time both guys had to win that for their legacy but Russ did more . Denver HAD to win that .It wrecked them . Of their 11 losses 9 are 1 score games .
It propelled Seattle to some degree . It is how the history of this league is written . And yeah the gift keeps giving

[obiken]

Hackett was fired, what a shock. Russ will be better next year but he has to run when the lane is open, injuries healing will help, but he has to own a lot of this.

[RiverDog]

The Broncos fired two more coaches, special-teams coordinator Dwayne Stukes and offensive line coach Butch Barry.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... ne-stukes/

The article also notes that their defensive coordinator, Ejiro Evero, was offered the interim head coaching position and declined. Senior assistant coach Jerry Rosburg, who came out of retirement to join Hackett's staff in September, will take over. He has 40 years of coaching experience, but none as a head coach.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're right. No one knows for sure how much and just what type of control Russell has or had over Hackett and the rest of the team. But we do know that Russell wanted out of Seattle in part because he wanted more input, particularly on offense, and we can infer that one of the reasons why he wanted out of here was due to a disagreement over offensive philosophy. We also know that Hackett gave every indication after the trade that Russell was going to have A LOT to say about how the offense in Denver was going to be ran, and we know that he was allowed to bring his own trainer with him to the team facility. Given those facts, I think it's a fair assumption that Russell had A LOT of control.

It's going to be a very interesting drama in the Mile High City, who ends up coaching them and what their approach towards Russell will be. Will the new HC come in and really lay down the law, make Russell give up his little perks, tell him to get rid of his personal coach, make him play in the preseason, etc? Or will it be Hackett 201?

I don't know how many QBs have personal trainers. Having a personal trainer isn't exactly some unique situation for a wealthy person.

I watched a lot of Denver. Russ was still trying to run and still moving outside the pocket, he just wasn't doing it like he used to do. When I look at those Denver games, it looked to me like multiple problems:

1. Russ's arm is off. Not sure if it is the light air or the receivers or using a different timing system, but his throws were off. We've seen him put perfect touch on passes many times. But his throws were more off than I've ever seen in Seattle.

2. Denver's O-line is trash. He was under near constant pressure.

3. Russ holds the ball a long time and has not trained himself to get the ball out fast like a WCO requires. He kept doing the, "I'll wait for the better play" and it doesn't work in a WCO or if you can't move anymore. He hasn't broken that habit.

4. He doesn't have timing with his receivers, which could be because of reason 1 or he just hasn't developed it yet.

5. The head coach didn't have a good game plan from week to week. Nearly ever game it looked the defense knew exactly what was coming and the Denver players didn't have the talent to beat who they were playing.

6. Losing their best runner early. The loss of the run game early in the season threw them off and they never developed a rhythm absent a run game.

Do I think a better coach can fix a lot of this? Yes, I do. Do I care enough after this year to watch much? Nope.

[Hawktawk]

I don't know how many QBs have personal trainers. Having a personal trainer isn't exactly some unique situation for a wealthy person.

I watched a lot of Denver. Russ was still trying to run and still moving outside the pocket, he just wasn't doing it like he used to do. When I look at those Denver games, it looked to me like multiple problems:

1. Russ's arm is off. Not sure if it is the light air or the receivers or using a different timing system, but his throws were off. We've seen him put perfect touch on passes many times. But his throws were more off than I've ever seen in Seattle.

2. Denver's O-line is trash. He was under near constant pressure.

3. Russ holds the ball a long time and has not trained himself to get the ball out fast like a WCO requires. He kept doing the, "I'll wait for the better play" and it doesn't work in a WCO or if you can't move anymore. He hasn't broken that habit.

4. He doesn't have timing with his receivers, which could be because of reason 1 or he just hasn't developed it yet.

5. The head coach didn't have a good game plan from week to week. Nearly ever game it looked the defense knew exactly what was coming and the Denver players didn't have the talent to beat who they were playing.

6. Losing their best runner early. The loss of the run game early in the season threw them off and they never developed a rhythm absent a run game.

Do I think a better coach can fix a lot of this? Yes, I do. Do I care enough after this year to watch much? Nope.

Jake heaps isn't a trainer. He's a QB coach who is on site. Direct replacement for the teams QB coach. I see a problem. So did Seattle's who quit and took a college job mid last season.
#1 Russel still has a powerful arm. I think he has permanent grip issues due to pulling out a pin 3 weeks before my own orthopedic surgeon said he was damaging his finger and nobody on the planet heals from that before 6 weeks. Its what bipolar people do, disregard their safety for little reward. I get it.
Reading the field is a bigger problem than accuracy, seeing open guys .

#2 Ask Geno about line play as hes over 40 sacks now and probably 100 hits. Its starting to show but sorry. That line gave up 40 last year with Lock and Bridgewater

#3. Russ is heavy Asea. You can see that as a workout warrior. Still a fit athletic man in his 30s but the face is round, the arms are thicker and not cut. He's out of shape. That's why he cant run. It looked like it in Seattle live on MNF and Id kind of forgot it then read a denver sportswriters article saying they should have a weight clause in his deal. Then I started paying attention.
Russ needs to drop 20 lbs asap. You know it more than I. Or throw from the pocket, make quicker decisions.
4. Ill grant you that but 11 year vet missing guys running wide open down the field has lost several games. That's not timing.
5. Hackett was a bad coach in many ways but he put the #1 defense on the field most of the year. Your a defense guy.Be honest. It's the worst Broncos offense 1n like 35 years. If Geno had that we would be on our way to the super bowl.
6.we scored 34 on the raiders with no run game at all. If only we had Penny. This I get. Russ needs a strong run game to launch missiles off of. Its his game. Quick strike or punt.

Ill be curious who comes to coach Russ. Interesting the exceptional DC had no interest in fixing Russ. Must not think Hacketts the problem.
That guys gonna be a HC somewhere next year.

[RiverDog]

I watched a lot of Denver. Russ was still trying to run and still moving outside the pocket, he just wasn't doing it like he used to do. When I look at those Denver games, it looked to me like multiple problems:

1. Russ's arm is off. Not sure if it is the light air or the receivers or using a different timing system, but his throws were off. We've seen him put perfect touch on passes many times. But his throws were more off than I've ever seen in Seattle.

2. Denver's O-line is trash. He was under near constant pressure.

3. Russ holds the ball a long time and has not trained himself to get the ball out fast like a WCO requires. He kept doing the, "I'll wait for the better play" and it doesn't work in a WCO or if you can't move anymore. He hasn't broken that habit.

4. He doesn't have timing with his receivers, which could be because of reason 1 or he just hasn't developed it yet.

5. The head coach didn't have a good game plan from week to week. Nearly ever game it looked the defense knew exactly what was coming and the Denver players didn't have the talent to beat who they were playing.

6. Losing their best runner early. The loss of the run game early in the season threw them off and they never developed a rhythm absent a run game.

Do I think a better coach can fix a lot of this? Yes, I do. Do I care enough after this year to watch much? Nope.

As you noted, Russell's time to throw, like it was in Seattle, is one of the slowest of starting quarterbacks. He's averaging 2.96 seconds. The only starters that are slower are Lamar Jackson, Justin Fields, Zach Wilson, and Deshaun Watson, all considerably younger and more elusive than Russell. Tom Brady, for example, is a full half second quicker. That's one thing that has to be fix. He's no longer elusive enough to extend plays like he was when he was younger.

Denver's offensive line isn't top 10, but they're not trash, either. Through Week 14, PFF ranked them 13th in passing, 17th overall. Here's what they had to say about that unit:

Denver’s line ranks 13th in PFF pass-blocking grade and is one of the more balanced units in the league.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive- ... ek-15-2022

[NorthHawk]

The could have been even better but they lost their starting LT early this year.
If Russ wants to get back to being Russ, he has to embrace the Offense the new coach wants to play including quick throws and taking what the Defense is giving him if that's their game plan.
It's almost like he was doing his own thing this year, outside of the Offensive design. If he doesn't adjust they will have to cut him when the Cap implications aren't so bad.

[RiverDog]

The could have been even better but they lost their starting LT early this year.
If Russ wants to get back to being Russ, he has to embrace the Offense the new coach wants to play including quick throws and taking what the Defense is giving him if that's their game plan.
It's almost like he was doing his own thing this year, outside of the Offensive design. If he doesn't adjust they will have to cut him when the Cap implications aren't so bad.

The cap hit for cutting Russell is as follows:

2023 $107M
2024 $85M
2025 $49.6M
2026 $31.2M
2027 $12.8m
2028 $4.4M

If he's on the roster as of the 5th day of the 2024 season, his salary becomes fully guaranteed. That's $240M.

They're stuck with him for some time.

[NorthHawk]

Sometimes the June 1st cuts have an impact - I don't know if it does with his contract, though.

It would seem their best course of action would be to hire an OC or HC that can work with what made him successful in Seattle and improve upon that.
There was some talk that Payton wants Schottenheimer to be his OC. Maybe with the WalMart money Payton can be lured to Denver, but they're seemingly stuck with Wilson for the near term.

[RiverDog]

Sometimes the June 1st cuts have an impact - I don't know if it does with his contract, though.

It would seem their best course of action would be to hire an OC or HC that can work with what made him successful in Seattle and improve upon that.
There was some talk that Payton wants Schottenheimer to be his OC. Maybe with the WalMart money Payton can be lured to Denver, but they're seemingly stuck with Wilson for the near term.

As you yourself have pointed out, the Saints still own the rights to Payton, and they're going to want compensation for any team to sign him. Even if Payton wanted to coach for them, the Broncos simply don't have the draft capital.

[Aseahawkfan]

As you noted, Russell's time to throw, like it was in Seattle, is one of the slowest of starting quarterbacks. He's averaging 2.96 seconds. The only starters that are slower are Lamar Jackson, Justin Fields, Zach Wilson, and Deshaun Watson, all considerably younger and more elusive than Russell. Tom Brady, for example, is a full half second quicker. That's one thing that has to be fix. He's no longer elusive enough to extend plays like he was when he was younger.

Denver's offensive line isn't top 10, but they're not trash, either. Through Week 14, PFF ranked them 13th in passing, 17th overall. Here's what they had to say about that unit:

Denver’s line ranks 13th in PFF pass-blocking grade and is one of the more balanced units in the league.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive- ... ek-15-2022

I don't go by that. They're a bad O-line. They lost their starting LT Garret Bolles early in the season. They might have lost another guy too, but I can't recall. I know they lost their starting LT very early and it's been downhill for them.

Could be there are a lot of bad units out there, but Denver's O-line is not good.

[Hawktawk]

The could have been even better but they lost their starting LT early this year.
If Russ wants to get back to being Russ, he has to embrace the Offense the new coach wants to play including quick throws and taking what the Defense is giving him if that's their game plan.
It's almost like he was doing his own thing this year, outside of the Offensive design. If he doesn't adjust they will have to cut him when the Cap implications aren't so bad.

He’s been doing his own thing for many years . Not just this one . Now he’s older , overweight and it’s not working in a tenth of a second league . He’s never changed his game other than for the worse . When you’re a ninja like young Russ or any other scrambling guy it’s easy to get away with. Pack on some weight and age 10 years and good luck with that . It’s why the guys playing 15 plus years are taller pocket passers other than Brees who stood on his tiptoes in the pocket to see the field . Damndest thing I ever saw .

Russ has the same game he’s had for years . Just isn’t working anymore .

[RiverDog]

I don't go by that. They're a bad O-line. They lost their starting LT Garret Bolles early in the season. They might have lost another guy too, but I can't recall. I know they lost their starting LT very early and it's been downhill for them.

Could be there are a lot of bad units out there, but Denver's O-line is not good.

So what are you basing your opinion on? I'm not being a smart ass, it's a serious question. Have you watched all or most of their games? Or is there some other stat or analysis that you're using?

FYI Pro Football Focus is the gold standard for individual and position analysis and performance. Many of the metrics they use are the same ones that teams use to base their analytics decisions on. Besides, I never said that Denver's OL is good, I said that they aren't garbage as you had said earlier.

Russell is notorious for being slow in his time to throw, and we both know what a nightmare it is to block for a QB that is constantly trying to extend plays and doesn't get the ball out quickly.

[Aseahawkfan]

So what are you basing your opinion on? I'm not being a smart ass, it's a serious question. Have you watched all or most of their games? Or is there some other stat or analysis that you're using?

FYI Pro Football Focus is the gold standard for individual and position analysis and performance. Many of the metrics they use are the same ones that teams use to base their analytics decisions on. Besides, I never said that Denver's OL is good, I said that they aren't garbage as you had said earlier.

Russell is notorious for being slow in his time to throw, and we both know what a nightmare it is to block for a QB that is constantly trying to extend plays and doesn't get the ball out quickly.

I watched all or most of their games. They were getting blown up a lot on the O-line when Russ stood in the pocket. It's why I consider it strange people think Russ was trying to be a pocket passer. Near as I can tell Russ was doing what he always does and trying to get outside the pocket and throw. Problem was more teams know how to contain him in the pocket now and once he starts running around taking his eyes off the field while having nowhere to run out of the pocket, he is dead meat. Combine that with the O-line getting blown up a lot and that O-line did not look good to me watching them. They were getting stuffed in the run and blown up when Russ tried to stay in the pocket. Their offensive line was a major part of Denver's woes from what I could see. Just very inconsistent and not good at any particular thing.

Denver looked like they might be able to turn it around, but they lost their LT which hurt and then lost their best runner. Gordon fumbled a lot when pushed into full time duty and cost them tight games they might have won. Then they cut him. So they never got into rhythm. Denver has lost 8 of their 11 losses by one TD or less. Those could easily have been wins had they had one or two things go their way, but they didn't. They blundered at various positions when they had a chance to win whether a key injury, a fumble, a bad defensive play, a bad play call, or Russ just not able to get it done or getting sacked or throwing an interception.

To make a closer comparison, Denver did not look like Cleveland or Jacksonville during their awful years. They did not look like some terrible team dominated by everyone. Denver looked like a decent team that couldn't close games. They were rarely dominated. They just seemed to come into games with bad game plans, make ineffective adjustments, and just couldn't step up in tight games to win. Most of it looked like bad coaching and a lot of key bad plays.

I'm happy they did lose those close games. There were times I was watching thinking Russ would pull it out in the fourth quarter like he did here, but they didn't. I was so happy they lost because they were nail biters in a bunch of those games. It would have been irritating to see Denver getting wins in those tight games. Things didn't go their way. They had too many holes and weaknesses. Now we're getting a top 5 pick.

But next year with a better coach and better health, a bunch of those tight games might go their way and they end up winning 8 or 10 or more games. That's what I saw watching Denver. I'm very glad all those tight games went our way. Luck seems to be lining up for Seattle to build another great team if Carroll and Schneider can turn these draft picks into gold.

Even if Carroll retires, we would still look very attractive as a destination if we can stack talent.

Denver could easily convert a bunch of those losses into wins. Lucky for us they didn't. But they might next year and things could look very different. I count this as a very lucky year for Seattle in regards to Denver messing up enough in tight games to have a huge number of losses.

To simplify this, Denver didn't look like Cleveland or Jacksonville during their bad years. They were not getting dominated. Denver looked like a badly coached team with decent talent who couldn't close out games.

[RiverDog]

So what are you basing your opinion on? I'm not being a smart ass, it's a serious question. Have you watched all or most of their games? Or is there some other stat or analysis that you're using?

FYI Pro Football Focus is the gold standard for individual and position analysis and performance. Many of the metrics they use are the same ones that teams use to base their analytics decisions on. Besides, I never said that Denver's OL is good, I said that they aren't garbage as you had said earlier.

Russell is notorious for being slow in his time to throw, and we both know what a nightmare it is to block for a QB that is constantly trying to extend plays and doesn't get the ball out quickly.

I watched all or most of their games. They were getting blown up a lot on the O-line when Russ stood in the pocket. It's why I consider it strange people think Russ was trying to be a pocket passer. Near as I can tell Russ was doing what he always does and trying to get outside the pocket and throw. Problem was more teams know how to contain him in the pocket now and once he starts running around taking his eyes off the field while having nowhere to run out of the pocket, he is dead meat. Combine that with the O-line getting blown up a lot and that O-line did not look good to me watching them. They were getting stuffed in the run and blown up when Russ tried to stay in the pocket. Their offensive line was a major part of Denver's woes from what I could see. Just very inconsistent and not good at any particular thing.

Denver looked like they might be able to turn it around, but they lost their LT which hurt and then lost their best runner. Gordon fumbled a lot when pushed into full time duty and cost them tight games they might have won. Then they cut him. So they never got into rhythm. Denver has lost 8 of their 11 losses by one TD or less. Those could easily have been wins had they had one or two things go their way, but they didn't. They blundered at various positions when they had a chance to win whether a key injury, a fumble, a bad defensive play, a bad play call, or Russ just not able to get it done or getting sacked or throwing an interception.

To make a closer comparison, Denver did not look like Cleveland or Jacksonville during their awful years. They did not look like some terrible team dominated by everyone. Denver looked like a decent team that couldn't close games. They were rarely dominated. They just seemed to come into games with bad game plans, make ineffective adjustments, and just couldn't step up in tight games to win. Most of it looked like bad coaching and a lot of key bad plays.

I'm happy they did lose those close games. There were times I was watching thinking Russ would pull it out in the fourth quarter like he did here, but they didn't. I was so happy they lost because they were nail biters in a bunch of those games. It would have been irritating to see Denver getting wins in those tight games. Things didn't go their way. They had too many holes and weaknesses. Now we're getting a top 5 pick.

But next year with a better coach and better health, a bunch of those tight games might go their way and they end up winning 8 or 10 or more games. That's what I saw watching Denver. I'm very glad all those tight games went our way. Luck seems to be lining up for Seattle to build another great team if Carroll and Schneider can turn these draft picks into gold.

Even if Carroll retires, we would still look very attractive as a destination if we can stack talent.

Denver could easily convert a bunch of those losses into wins. Lucky for us they didn't. But they might next year and things could look very different. I count this as a very lucky year for Seattle in regards to Denver messing up enough in tight games to have a huge number of losses.

To simplify this, Denver didn't look like Cleveland or Jacksonville during their bad years. They were not getting dominated. Denver looked like a badly coached team with decent talent who couldn't close out games.

The Broncos have played in 5 Prime Time games plus the Christmas game. I've watched all of those, plus I have the Red Zone, which shows maybe 20%-40% of the live action depending on whether they're in the early window, which usually has 5-6 games, or the afternoon window, which generally has 3 games, and as the name suggests, the higher scoring the game, the higher the percentage is shown on Red Zone.

I still don't agree with your assessment of the Broncos' offensive line. I do think that the Rams game was perhaps the worst I've seen them play as Russell was sacked 6 times, but they weren't responsible for any of Russ's 3 interceptions as none of them were thrown when he was being hurried. Plus as I indicated, some of the protection break downs are on the QB or offensive scheme for not getting the ball out quicker. Russell's very slow time to throw stat is real, and IMO it's the biggest single thing that he needs to do to turn things around.

We'll see how Denver looks next season. They did lose a lot of close games with all but two of their games were by a TD or less which would suggest that they aren't that far away, but there's likely to be a big shake up in the offseason and they don't have a heck of a lot of cap space or draft capital. They could be going from the frying pan into the fire.

Agreed about Seattle being a preferred destination should a HC opening were to occur. The only potential problem could be the uncertainty of the future ownership. There's rumors that Paul Allen's estate requires that they sell both the Blazers and Seahawks.

[curmudgeon]

A very difficult period awaits Denver as the quarter of a billion dollar man will be another year older, heavier, slower, still short and I’m not sure he can read a defense….

[Aseahawkfan]

The Broncos have played in 5 Prime Time games plus the Christmas game. I've watched all of those, plus I have the Red Zone, which shows maybe 20%-40% of the live action depending on whether they're in the early window, which usually has 5-6 games, or the afternoon window, which generally has 3 games, and as the name suggests, the higher scoring the game, the higher the percentage is shown on Red Zone.

I still don't agree with your assessment of the Broncos' offensive line. I do think that the Rams game was perhaps the worst I've seen them play as Russell was sacked 6 times, but they weren't responsible for any of Russ's 3 interceptions as none of them were thrown when he was being hurried. Plus as I indicated, some of the protection break downs are on the QB or offensive scheme for not getting the ball out quicker. Russell's very slow time to throw stat is real, and IMO it's the biggest single thing that he needs to do to turn things around.

We'll see how Denver looks next season. They did lose a lot of close games with all but two of their games were by a TD or less which would suggest that they aren't that far away, but there's likely to be a big shake up in the offseason and they don't have a heck of a lot of cap space or draft capital. They could be going from the frying pan into the fire.

Agreed about Seattle being a preferred destination should a HC opening were to occur. The only potential problem could be the uncertainty of the future ownership. There's rumors that Paul Allen's estate requires that they sell both the Blazers and Seahawks.

Most O-lines are garbage in my opinion. My view is somewhat subjective. The salary cap has hit the O-line pretty hard in my opinion. A lot of teams try to save money on the O-line on offense. You got the high paid receivers and QBs, then maybe a high paid RB, so you can only afford a few key high paid O-line guys. If you lose even one, it's usually not great. That's why I don't care about the ratings on sites. O-lines aren't what they used to be.

I remember the Redskins and 90s Cowboys, their O-lines were a true team strength. They were brutal and you could see them dominating on the field. Even Seattle when we had that period with Walt and Hutch had a hell of an O-line. But these modern O-lines are getting pushed around and don't provide near the same protection. We like to mention that rules have changed and you can't touch QBs much any longer, but I wouldn't be surprised if part of that is the weak O-lines. It's so hard to keep a good unit around a QB. The defensive players are huge and fast. They just get owned.

When I'm watching these guys, QBs are under pressure fast and hard. If Russ can't run, only way he will save himself is get the ball out faster. O-lines don't hold very well any more. Defenses are too sophisticated and defensive players too big, fast, and strong.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/br ... cf80cc13a5
So Paton actually verbalized it" Russ is fixable" Wow. A few other high points,Harbaugh, Quinn, Reich being mentioned as potential candidates.I even heard bevfool and Shottie's names mentioned All guys to fix Russ.
Fascinating they have offered the interim position to the DC and he declined. Although they have said they would like to interview him.
Id think a DC with a shot like this knowing there's a permanent opening in 2 games would leap. This guy must have figured if he wants to be a HC he wont get there trying to fix wilson the next 2 weeks

Condoleezza Rice is in on the search. Penner has made clear the new Coach will report directly to him, not Paton. So he looks like some kind of overpaid scout going forward. Paton and Penner did apologize profusely to the fans for this teams performance. Paton personally apologized to Nathanial Hackett, called him a great coach in a situation that didn't work out. I've heard not a peep from Russ apologizing for being a huge part of getting him fired. At least he made a nicer statement about Shottie after getting him fired.

I thought what penner said of Russ was interesting. "IM SURE HE WILL DO THE NECESSARY WORK IN THE OFFSEASON TO BE READY FOR NEXT SEASON" Like maybe work out more and eat less? Park the jet and stay in town? play in preseason? So much for the guy nobody ever outworks. Porker
Good luck getting russ to do any of it but it does look like they are gonna turn down the screws on Russ as much as they can.

[RiverDog]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/broncos-gm-believes-russell-wilson-is-fixable-next-hc-to-report-to-ownership/ar-AA15ISnU?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=f4bf6083da8d4f21a506dccf80cc13a5
So Paton actually verbalized it" Russ is fixable" Wow. A few other high points,Harbaugh, Quinn, Reich being mentioned as potential candidates.I even heard bevfool and Shottie's names mentioned All guys to fix Russ.
Fascinating they have offered the interim position to the DC and he declined. Although they have said they would like to interview him.
Id think a DC with a shot like this knowing there's a permanent opening in 2 games would leap. This guy must have figured if he wants to be a HC he wont get there trying to fix wilson the next 2 weeks

Condoleezza Rice is in on the search. Penner has made clear the new Coach will report directly to him, not Paton. So he looks like some kind of overpaid scout going forward. Paton and Penner did apologize profusely to the fans for this teams performance. Paton personally apologized to Nathanial Hackett, called him a great coach in a situation that didn't work out. I've heard not a peep from Russ apologizing for being a huge part of getting him fired. At least he made a nicer statement about Shottie after getting him fired.

I thought what penner said of Russ was interesting. "IM SURE HE WILL DO THE NECESSARY WORK IN THE OFFSEASON TO BE READY FOR NEXT SEASON" Like maybe work out more and eat less? Park the jet and stay in town? play in preseason? So much for the guy nobody ever outworks. Porker
Good luck getting russ to do any of it but it does look like they are gonna turn down the screws on Russ as much as they can.

Yeah, I was a little surprised that the DC turned down the interim position, if that's what actually happened. He's obviously eyeballing a permanent opening and felt it was a no win situation to be the head honcho for just two games, both against playoff teams.

I found Penner's statement that the new coach will report directly to him and not the GM to be a little strange. If he doesn't trust Paton, why is he keeping him around? This almost looks like a Jerry Jones situation, with the owner assuming the role of the GM. Or is he planning on using the Seahawks model of the GM reporting to the HC?

As far as Russ not making a statement about Hackett's firing, if I'm a fan of his, I'd be good with it. He needs to stay out of the public eye for the time being as even the most innocent of statements of his are being filtered through looking for some type of cryptic message. He needs to quit with the Subway commercials, the talk about doing knee highs on overseas flights, the tweets from Cabo and just let things settle down. He's very unpopular at the moment and nothing he can say will do anything to reverse that perception and more likely make things worse.

[NorthHawk]

I got the feeling the DC just wanted the year to be over.
I said earlier that I thought they would keep Paton until they get a HC or maybe until after the draft, but his days are numbered.
New ownership would have a difficult time getting both a HC and GM with all of the power resting with the HC. So it will probably
be an experienced HC with a younger GM much like here in Seattle.
Maybe Pete will quit here and go to Denver? Wouldn't that piss RW off.

[Hawktawk]

I got the feeling the DC just wanted the year to be over.
I said earlier that I thought they would keep Paton until they get a HC or maybe until after the draft, but his days are numbered.
New ownership would have a difficult time getting both a HC and GM with all of the power resting with the HC. So it will probably be an experienced HC with a younger GM much like here in Seattle.
Maybe Pete will quit here and go to Denver? Wouldn't that piss RW off.

He’s a glorified scout now . I totally agree with this . I think it may be somewhere in between Jones and a strong owner . It’s a definite demotion . I’ve never seen the likes of owners and GMs talking about fixing a n 11 year vet , building a staff around that goal . With the top D in the league till a few weeks ago and the worst denver offense since 71.

For Paton it has to work or he’s collateral damage

[RiverDog]

I got the feeling the DC just wanted the year to be over.
I said earlier that I thought they would keep Paton until they get a HC or maybe until after the draft, but his days are numbered.
New ownership would have a difficult time getting both a HC and GM with all of the power resting with the HC. So it will probably
be an experienced HC with a younger GM much like here in Seattle.
Maybe Pete will quit here and go to Denver? Wouldn't that piss RW off.

Judging by the game vs. the Rams, the entire team just wants the season to be over, and I don't doubt that the coaching staff feels much the same way. It's been a living nightmare for the entire team.

Nevertheless, opportunities like this one don't come around every day. Bruce Arians, for example, got his big break as an interim head coach. Even if it's only a couple of days, it's something that he can put on his resume that most others can't.

[NorthHawk]

True, but maybe after this year he no longer has HC aspirations. An experience like this could jade a lot of people.

[Aseahawkfan]

I would probably hire Jim Harbaugh for Denver. I think he could get a lot out of that team.