Lockett Out, Perhaps Done for the Season.

[Hawktawk]

Great point about the pre salary cap era

[RiverDog]

Great point about the pre salary cap era

Yeah, especially back in the 60's and earlier. Even the stars actually had to work for a living. Same with the coaches. And that doesn't even include all of the incidental stuff, like training, medical procedures like knee surgeries, etc. Brady had ACL surgery in 2008. Had that injury occurred in the 60's, it's extremely unlikely that he would have been able to play another year, let alone 14 more years. Is it fair to compare Gale Sayers and Adrian Peterson given that both of them had knee surgery during their careers, Sayers never coming close to returning to form and a premature retirement while Peterson had another 5+ productive seasons?

[Hawktawk]

No doubt but along those same lines there have never been more lethal explosive athletes in the history of the game on both sides of the ball .

I have seen old footage with guys smoking cigarettes on the sidelines , undefined arms , no mandatory workouts , no strength coaches . I’d be curious the 40 times of guys like Sayers and Jim Brown and what they could bench and squat .

I always thought Brown could have played in a later era . Most couldn’t , they would be decapitated .

It’s one of those circular arguments my friends . The athletes have never been better . But Brady never was an athlete anyway . It’s almost more impressive . Rodgers is far more polished versatile player but where’s the beef ? Where is the hardware Manning ?

Like Asea says it’s irrational to suggest Brady isn’t the greatest regardless of era .

[NorthHawk]

That's a good point about today's medical and training expertise that wasn't available in previous eras. Sayers injury today might not end his career like those injuries did for players back then. As well, players today get much better
treatment during the week and in the off season for nagging injuries or for preventing future injuries. A lot of players go under the knife in the off season to fix things that limited them during the year but weren't bad enough to
stop them from playing. It makes you wonder what the medical advances will be 30 years from now and how would they compare players to today.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, especially back in the 60's and earlier. Even the stars actually had to work for a living. Same with the coaches. And that doesn't even include all of the incidental stuff, like training, medical procedures like knee surgeries, etc. Brady had ACL surgery in 2008. Had that injury occurred in the 60's, it's extremely unlikely that he would have been able to play another year, let alone 14 more years. Is it fair to compare Gale Sayers and Adrian Peterson given that both of them had knee surgery during their careers, Sayers never coming close to returning to form and a premature retirement while Peterson had another 5+ productive seasons?

Doesn't change no QB has seven rings. Most players don't come back from ACL surgery and do too well even now. Just more of an example of the kind of discipline and consistency Brady exhibits above and beyond his peers to be the GOAT. The fact he is playing at 45 and still relatively healthy is more of an example of that discipline and focus that others are unlikely or unwilling to do.

It was far easier to stockpile talent and hold dynasty teams together before Brady. That makes Brady's seven rings even more unlikely in the modern day than it was in the past, not less. It was easier to do what Brady has done in the pre-salary cap era. That is why in the modern era the closest to him has 2 rings, while the closest to him in the pre-salary cap era has 4 rings.

Brady has played against all manner of players of any race, so no argument about certain race of players don't get to play. He's gone against the best QBs of his era with Peyton Manning being his primary rival. He's gone against Kurt Warner. And every great QB out there. Gone against our legendary defense. He's done it for two decades going on three.

So still not sure what you're arguing. If anything it was far easier to excel back in the olden days when the athletes weren't as good so it was easier to stand out, you could stack talent like certain teams did like the Steelers and Cowboys due to no free agency, and the overall talent pool was concentrated on certain teams.

What Brady has done is unprecedented in football and as time goes on will prove to be one of those crazy records like Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak or the Celtics 8 championship streak. He'll be on the list of unbreakable sports records as the years wear on. Seven rings is nuts. Never thought anyone, much less a QB, would get seven rings or go to the Super Bowl 10 times. It's an absolutely insane statistic that no other QB is even close to.

[c_hawkbob]

Yeah, especially back in the 60's and earlier. Even the stars actually had to work for a living. Same with the coaches. And that doesn't even include all of the incidental stuff, like training, medical procedures like knee surgeries, etc. Brady had ACL surgery in 2008. Had that injury occurred in the 60's, it's extremely unlikely that he would have been able to play another year, let alone 14 more years. Is it fair to compare Gale Sayers and Adrian Peterson given that both of them had knee surgery during their careers, Sayers never coming close to returning to form and a premature retirement while Peterson had another 5+ productive seasons?

Doesn't change no QB has seven rings. Most players don't come back from ACL surgery and do too well even now. Just more of an example of the kind of discipline and consistency Brady exhibits above and beyond his peers to be the GOAT. The fact he is playing at 45 and still relatively healthy is more of an example of that discipline and focus that others are unlikely or unwilling to do.

It was far easier to stockpile talent and hold dynasty teams together before Brady. That makes Brady's seven rings even more unlikely in the modern day than it was in the past, not less. It was easier to do what Brady has done in the pre-salary cap era. That is why in the modern era the closest to him has 2 rings, while the closest to him in the pre-salary cap era has 4 rings.

Brady has played against all manner of players of any race, so no argument about certain race of players don't get to play. He's gone against the best QBs of his era with Peyton Manning being his primary rival. He's gone against Kurt Warner. And every great QB out there. Gone against our legendary defense. He's done it for two decades going on three.

So still not sure what you're arguing. If anything it was far easier to excel back in the olden days when the athletes weren't as good so it was easier to stand out, you could stack talent like certain teams did like the Steelers and Cowboys due to no free agency, and the overall talent pool was concentrated on certain teams.

What Brady has done is unprecedented in football and as time goes on will prove to be one of those crazy records like Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak or the Celtics 8 championship streak. He'll be on the list of unbreakable sports records as the years wear on. Seven rings is nuts. Never thought anyone, much less a QB, would get seven rings or go to the Super Bowl 10 times. It's an absolutely insane statistic that no other QB is even close to.

Not quite accurate. As we are comparing across eras you have to include Otto Graham and Bart Starr who also have 7 total titles each.

[Aseahawkfan]

Not quite accurate. As we are comparing across eras you have to include Otto Graham and Bart Starr who also have 7 total titles each.

Those are not Super Bowl rings. Those rings are more like Conference Championships? AFL and NFL pre-merger?

I know Starr has two post-merger. Graham none as he was done before the merger.

So I'm going with Super Bowl Era post-merger as those previous rings were more like conference championships when there were two leagues.

[c_hawkbob]

So NFL Championships weren't really NFL Championships until they started calling them Super Bowls eh?

[Aseahawkfan]

So NFL Championships weren't really NFL Championships until they started calling them Super Bowls eh?

When did the leagues come together? If we go by AFL and NFL, Brady has 9 AFL rings and 1 NFL ring. So a total of 10 conference or split league championships.

Those are what Starr and Otto have? When there were two leagues which became the conferences?

[obiken]

So NFL Championships weren't really NFL Championships until they started calling them Super Bowls eh

Come on, the kind of pounding Brady would have taken back in the 80's and 90's no way he would have played QB for 23 years it just wasn't done. So yeah, NFL Titles do matter. You can minimize the Pats and Brady and you can also over hype them as well. I got Hawk friends that hate the Pats and Brady and admire them. To me they were the model of the salary cap era, they had a great QB that took pay cuts, and an owner that was pliable. Bob who did we fear more, Elway or Brady? Elway by far! He was simply the toughest, single offensive weapon I ever saw. Name me a guy that could throw a ball one way, while running the other way, on a 70 yard dead rope. Actually I was only 10 when Jim Brown quit, and he was like a man among boys, he was in MHO the GOAT.

[Aseahawkfan]

Come on, the kind of pounding Brady would have taken back in the 80's and 90's no way he would have played QB for 23 years it just wasn't done. So yeah, NFL Titles do matter. You can minimize the Pats and Brady and you can also over hype them as well. I got Hawk friends that hate the Pats and Brady and admire them. To me they were the model of the salary cap era, they had a great QB that took pay cuts, and an owner that was pliable. Bob who did we fear more, Elway or Brady? Elway by far! He was simply the toughest, single offensive weapon I ever saw. Name me a guy that could throw a ball one way, while running the other way, on a 70 yard dead rope. Actually I was only 10 when Jim Brown quit, and he was like a man among boys, he was in MHO the GOAT.

Patrick Mahomes? Elway was amazing, but I've seen athletes as good as Elway and better.

Who did you fear more Elway or Brady? Seattle barely played Brady because they were in different conferences. The one time we did play Brady in the postseason, he led his team back from the biggest Super Bowl deficit in NFL history to beat us. Soon as Brady saw Avril and Byron Maxwell done, he smelled blood like a shark and started to rip us apart.

Elway was in the same division as us. Of course you can say you feared Elway more than Brady since we didn't really have anyone like Brady to deal with but Elway.

I can guarantee the AFC East who had to look up at the Patriots every year who controlled that division in a way that the Elway-led Broncos never did feared Brady. I guarantee you every team that had to face Brady in the playoffs every year in the AFC feared Brady. You want to know the only years a team won the division title while New England had Brady? It was 2002 in Brady's second year and 2008 when Brady tore his ACL. For 20 years Brady played in the AFC East with the Patriots and the Patriots won the division 18 of 20 years Brady was there. I want you to imagine if you would have feared Brady or not if he were in the AFC or NFC West and won the division for 18 of 20 years?

Elway never came close to that level of divisional domination. You would have hated Tom Brady if you had to watch him win the division title and try to get a wild card for 18 of 20 years. Seattle fans would have said, "Elway who? I hate Tom Brady."

I bet Miami, Buffalo, and New York Jets fans breathed a collective sigh of relief when Tom Brady left the AFC East and went, "Now we got a chance after 20 years looking up at Tom Brady."

Peyton Manning had to battle that guy every year and played second fiddle to Tom Brady nearly ever year.

And the one time we play Tom Brady in the biggest game of our franchise lives and we think we got this guy, he finds a way to beat us. This a year after we absolutely decimate Peyton Manning and his record setting offense.

But not Tom. Not fricking Tom. Brady somehow finds a way to get the lead after we have a few key injuries, then we straight up screw ourselves. Then he goes on to win three more titles.

I am glad we never had Tom Brady in the NFC West with Bill Belichick. I would have hated those guys more than any team I've ever hated if I had to watch them take the division title for 18 of 20 years, go to the Super Bowl 9 times, and just have to deal with that garbage.

I don't know if any QB in NFL history has won a division 18 of 20 years and then nine conference championships including the NFC conference championship win and been in 13 conference championships.

I don't even know how some you analyze what Brady did and imagine yourself as a fan of a team in then AFC conference much less the AFC East and not imagine hating Brady. It would have been a fricking nightmare to have to face a guy like that every year taking the division and 13 of 20 years going to the AFC conference championship. It would have sucked horribly. I'm glad he and Bill were in the AFC. Thank goodness we didn't have to deal with that nightmare.

I watched the 90s Cowboys and 80s 49ers and 70s Steelers and I don't remember them dominating like the 2000s to 2019 Patriots. That was a stupid level of divisional and conference domination. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with it.

[Hawktawk]

I’m with Asea 100% on this . Apples to applies what Brady’s done winning his division 3/4 of the time and going to a Super Bowl literally almost half the seasons of his career makes him the greatest of all time . Make Otto Graham do that on 2 different teams changing players constantly and getting laid out by edge guys running 4.4. Good luck. Bart Starr ? Did he get to 10 championships and play 22 years ? Any mvps or passing titles ? How much roster turnover ? How many teams were there in the league and was there any parity or was it just Gb and everyone else? . As Asea points out in the time Brady’s won 7 the next most is 2 with everyone playing by the same rules . This isn’t hard .

Some people hate so deeply or hate being wrong so much they won’t give it up . Nothing ever was or ever will be done like Brady’s story of winning 6 then going to a down team and immediately getting another . It’s when I gave it up.

Leadership . Confidence . Skill . Luck. The best are seen as the luckiest and sometimes they are . Part of their DNAj

[obiken]

Elway was in the same division as us. Of course you can say you feared Elway more than Brady since we didn't really have anyone like Brady to deal with but Elway.

Oh come on, Teams win titles. I am not saying Brady is mutt food guy, but the old AFC West was way tougher than the AFC East. Tommy always had good Defenses, good interior lines, good RB's that Elway never had till he got Davis. IF he would have had Davis for just 5 of those years Elway would have eaten our Defense for breakfast. Moreover, the rules have changed, you cant touch a WR now and you know it. No doubt both QB's did way more with less, than any of the greats like Bradshaw, Griese, or Montana. (The 3 Amigos, give me a break.) The Pats never compared to the great teams of all time ala Fins, Steelers, 9ers, or the Cowboys, those teams were stacked. It was a perfect storm. Mahomy, I want to see one time where he is leveled like Elway, Bradshaw, Montana, or McMahon.

[Hawktawk]

We had the Raiders with John Madden and all those crazy defenders. Marcus Allen . Danny Fouts and Air Coryell in San Diego . Arrowhead was a nightmare no matter who was QB. But John Elway , that sob Knox called him a tailback with a cannon for an arm . Knox devised a plan to fill lanes rather than rush , drop coverage and make him beat us with his arm . He had arm strength but not a lot of arm talent . Seattle lost many very competetive games to Denver . It was always something, a fumble , a pick , a crazy bounce . People call Brady lucky . Elway was luckier vs Seattle at least . The AFC west in the 80s was filthy tough .
But what people forget is dominant teams make their division look worse by 2 games a team . But everyone has NFL players. Ask Dallas or KC last weekend .
Any given Sunday . You cannot rationalize one guy getting 7 in a 32 team league, a field goal league .
G.O.A.T

[Aseahawkfan]

Oh come on, Teams win titles. I am not saying Brady is mutt food guy, but the old AFC West was way tougher than the AFC East. Tommy always had good Defenses, good interior lines, good RB's that Elway never had till he got Davis. IF he would have had Davis for just 5 of those years Elway would have eaten our Defense for breakfast. Moreover, the rules have changed, you cant touch a WR now and you know it. No doubt both QB's did way more with less, than any of the greats like Bradshaw, Griese, or Montana. (The 3 Amigos, give me a break.) The Pats never compared to the great teams of all time ala Fins, Steelers, 9ers, or the Cowboys, those teams were stacked. It was a perfect storm. Mahomy, I want to see one time where he is leveled like Elway, Bradshaw, Montana, or McMahon.

The AFC East used to be one of the toughest divisions in football with Buffalo, Patriots, Jets, and MIami in that division. Three huge market teams and Buffalo, who went to four straight Super Bowls losing them all. The AFC East didn't get dominated until Tom Brady showed up. Before Bill B found Tom Brady, he was 5-11 with Bledsoe and after Brady left he's been 7-9, 10-7, and 7-7 up to this point. When Brady was out Bill B went 11-5 and missed the playoffs and lost the division to Miami. How did Miami look when Brady was out?

The AFC East was one tough division before Brady. And it's a tough division after Brady. But it wasn't tough when Brady was there.

No, you're flat out wrong. All those players you name had way better teams than Brady had. Elway had an amazing running game and great defense. McMahon had that Chicago defense and Walter Payton. Montana? Don't even start with Frisco and that stacked roster. Bradshaw had the Steel Curtain.

Brady did more with less. He never had a named defense. He did it across two decades with many different players. The best receiver he ever had was Randy Moss. When he had Moss, he won 18 games in a row and came within a field goal of going undefeated throwing for 50 TDs and 4800 yards. Who were his other receivers? Wes Welker and Julian Edelmen?

As far as good lines go, did he make them look good or were they good? Near as I can tell almost everywhere Brady goes, the lines look good. Why? Maybe because Brady diagnoses plays so quickly and gets the ball out so fast, he makes his line look really good.

If it's so easy to do obiken, why has no one else done it or even come close to Brady during his era? Explain that one to me. Why is the closest other QB to Brady in the modern era only have two Super Bowls? Why? How did Brady get seven during this time why QBs like Manning with the same rules and stud players all around them like Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison end up with two? Or Ben R with that great Pittsburgh defense and Jerome Bettis end up with two? How the hell do you end up with seven rings with two different teams playing QB? Then end up with no major injuries in 22 years of play? You can't tell me the Patriots line was that good? Or the Tampa Bay line?

How many excuses you going to come up with to explain the crazy coincidences over the last twenty years surrounding Brady?

I don't even know how you win your division 18 or 20 years. It's utterly insane. I cannot recall a team winning the division 18 or 20 years. Has that even been done before?

[RiverDog]

Back to the OP.

There's a chance that Lockett could return to play after missing just one game:

“The docs said it was perfect,” Carroll said of the procedure to repair the spiral fracture in the first metacarpal Lockett got late in the Seahawks’ loss to the San Francisco 49ers Thursday. “He had a lot of work done, but it’s very, very secure. So they feel very good about him coming back quickly.”

How quickly? Lockett will miss Seattle’s game on Saturday at AFC West-champion Kansas City. The Seahawks (7-7) appear to need at least two wins in their final three games to make the NFC’s postseason as the seventh and final seed. They play the Jets at home New Year’s Day then the Los Angeles Rams (4-10) Jan. 7 or 8. Could Lockett be back for those two games? “There’s a chance, yeah,” Carroll said. “That’s the first thing that came out of it, that there’s a chance (Lockett could miss only one game), from the docs. So we’ll see what happens. “I mean, that sounds crazy, miraculous, but they secured it in a way that they know he can already move his hand. ...

Read more at: https://www.tri-cityherald.com/sports/a ... rylink=cpy

I'd better get the name of that surgeon in case I ever need surgery on my hand.

[Hawktawk]

I need to hear it from Lockett as well as Pete but it is truly amazing what can be done with medicine now . I remember Ronnie Lott cutting off part of a finger to play as surgery would have sidelined him for the year . Talk about tough . I wonder if he misses the finger now ?