trents wrote:It's not that I disagree with you River but I would add that young people today seem to be more fragile psychologically than they were 50-60 years ago.
Hawktawk wrote:My understanding is the kid had a breakup with a girl . It was as much as anything else a combination of a gun and a depressed young male . Nobody wants to talk about that though . Just shouldn’t be linked to Leach.
Hawktawk wrote:I was raised by a psychotic father who physically and mentally and sexually abused all of us , 2 boys and 4 girls. I get why people kill themselves for sure but I could never do it to my friends and family at the time . But people give mental illness a bad name . My best friend didn’t believe when I was diagnosed bipolar . Anyway hearts open to you all . River you and I keep threatening to meet up but I fear we would get liquored up and beat each other down the way we go at it anymore . Probably should move it to OT
RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure if young people are more fragile than they were 50-60 years ago or if today's society is more sensitive to the issue of verbal harassment than they were back in the day. IMO it's probably a combination of both.
Verbal abuse is a very difficult type of trauma to handle, especially when it is used by a person in authority on a subordinate, ie a parent to a child, boss to a worker, a teacher to a student, or a coach to a player. Unlike that abuse given by one peer to another, the recipient has no alternative but to accept it and deal with it as best they can. They cannot retaliate or respond in kind as to do so would likely result in some undesirable repercussions.
We all know the mentality of military organizations, particularly the USMC with their drill sergeants when training basic recruits. Although I am not qualified to speak on the subject as I have never served in the armed forces, my understanding is that the goal of this intensive training, affectionately known as boot camp, is to break the will and independence of the recruit by, among other things, subjecting them to some very intense and deeply personal verbal abuse. Many of us have seen the movie "Full Metal Jacket", a fictional story that centers around this training and that involved a murder-suicide committed by one of the recruits. I would be curious to know if the armed forces have changed their approach to this kind of aggressive, demeaning behavior practiced by their instructors or if they've come to the realization that this practice could cause irreparable psychological harm to some individuals. My suspicion is that it has, but I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge on the subject would weigh in.
Certainly, coaching styles have changed over the years. No longer are the tactics of coaches like Bobby Knight, who ironically shared the same athletic department with Mike Leach at Texas Tech for 9 years, an acceptable means of motivation for coaches, especially those who work with younger people.
trents wrote:I note that Leach never repeated the public embarrassment of players approach at MSU that he committed at WSU. Perhaps he learned from that. Perhaps he grew and changed. Sometimes we don't give people enough room to do that. We lock them into their past mistakes. Sometimes we need more grace.
Aseahawkfan wrote:They certainly are more fragile. When you're using words like microaggression and constantly talking about your anxiety, you're being taught to be more fragile. If you started using the word microaggression when you were young, you'd get looked at like you were stupid.
Humans adapt to their environment. If their environment is soft, they'll be soft. If it is a hard environment, they'll harden up. And today's environment has been made into a very soft environment. It has little to do with genetics and everything to do with the adaptive environment in which you live. Depression Era folks didn't have much of a choice but to be tough because no one was going to help you because they could barely help themselves.
Just like our grandparents were tougher than most of us. And their grandparents tougher than them. I guarantee those men and women who were coming over here in the middle of nowhere with no pre-existing settlement or house who had to clear the wood away with hand axes and strip it and prepare for house building while hunting their own food and starting crops from nothing were tough as iron mentally and physically because the other option was death by starvation or freezing.
It really comes down to looking a the environment people live in and creating a situation that will cause humans to adapt in a way that is desirable and productive whether on a mass scale such as by government or on a small scale like parenting or coaching. All you have to do is take a look at the people today and how they are being socialized to see the soft socialization whether it's no standards for grades in school and wanting to eliminate grade or statistical measures of accomplishment to participation trophies in sports.
You can quantify and see the modern day behaviors that are undesirable and being pushed upon the young mostly by the social science community who have a strong incentive to do so to justify their existence.
RiverDog wrote: The type of tactics that Coach Leach practiced is not a good way to run a railroad no matter who it is you're dealing with: Young people or adults, emotionally stable or mentally ill, or whether you're a parent, a teacher, a coach, or a manager.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I asked you in the other thread, and I'll ask again here: what do you know about how he runs his program other than what you see in the media? Have you been to his practices? Team meetings? Have you talked to any of his players from any of his stints about him? That doesn't mean what he says and does in front of the press is above reproach, but it also doesn't nearly tell the whole story.
I don't know how he would be able to sustain a 22-year (and likely longer) head coaching career with a winning record (meaning good players have to want to play for you) if he was abusive on the regular.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:River,
I'm asking sincerely because it sounds like you have him pegged to a T; either you were there on a regular basis, or you have some very impressive telepathic abilities we aren't aware of. You're extrapolating the very narrow picture Mike Leach presents to the press to his daily behavior for his entire 22-year head coaching career. Wondering and having him dead to rights on it are two very different things. That's the point of the questions is to point out that fallacy. I'm taking you to task because you are making a weak argument. You're now conceding that maybe he didn't, but you've pretty much made up your mind that he did.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:So, the testimonies of former players (and fellow coaches/staff if you would take the time to read emails in the links I provided) don't move the needle at all, but what you've seen from Mike Leach in the press is enough to close the book on him. You can't offer any opposing first-hand accounts and one of your primary "sources" for your disdain of the man can't be verified. Yes, he said what he said, but trotting players out to apologize to the press is a dubious claim until proven otherwise.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:Sure, it's believable that Leach could have been verbally abusing players; it's also possible Nick Saban is the biggest Richard Cranium college football players have ever had the pleasure of being coached by. It would be believable about any of them. As for reserve players, it's also believable they would view the coaches and staff unfavorably because they aren't getting PT. Go ahead and discount these as well, but the linked deposition of Adam James and emails from Leach's staff members (you read those yet?) indicate James was entitled and lazy, didn't go to class, and slacked off in practice and then was upset he wasn't starting. The deposition indicates he exaggerated his claims and he even stormed out of Riley's office and broke part of the door (the push handle) when held accountable for his poor performance. He may have very well quit the program if his daddy hadn't stepped in. So, quite possibly, the reserve player's testimony is as much or more unreliable than that of a starter since he very likely has an axe to grind with the coaching staff.
So you don't like the guy. Cool, no reason why you have to. I don't think there's enough there to say he's as awful as you have him pegged.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:You seem pretty sure of yourself that his conduct in front of the press carries over to his overall coaching methods. You stated that's not how you run a railroad, which is why I take it you think it runs through everything he does. That's what I'm calling into question. Call it being a smart ass if you like, but those questions were meant to put a stamp on the fact that you, I, and everyone else not on his teams don't know what goes on every day. What I believe you conceded is that in a later response you acknowledged that perhaps he didn't, but your guess was that it was as bad or worse. You hadn't stated that was a consideration until then.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:You even mentioned at the start of this thread that the details of the Adam James incident are open to debate, and then you slam the door on both James' deposition with Leach's attorney as well as testimonies from two of Leach's former players and 2 or 3 members of his coaching staff that call into question just how that went down. And then, while calling starting players testimony pointless, you bring up a reserve players testimony as if it would have more value when I made good case for why a reserve player could easily be unreliable and biased (Adam James is a prime example). Still haven't heard anything from you that you even read the information I linked in the other thread. If you haven't, that's incredibly frustrating. It comes across as you only considering incidents that support your already firm opinion of the man. So, yeah, I'm going to jab at you about hanging onto an unverifiable incident (oline apology) and an incomplete understanding of another incident (Adam James). If you still want to use the Adam James incident, fine, but I believe you'd be better served if you read the deposition. You keep saying it's an incomplete picture; complete it a little more by reading that.
I'm not frustrated you hold your opinion; I'm frustrated because I believe your argument is incomplete and you're tossing aside or ignoring anything that conflicts with where you stand.
RiverDog wrote:Leach's tirades are a matter of record, and it makes you wonder if he was that bold and unrestrained in in his press conferences, what was he like when it was just him and his players and coaches? Or did he just do it for the cameras, that he was showboating just to get attention, and that behind the curtain, he was as gentle as a Teddy bear, and that he ran his team like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood? My guess is that he was just as bad, if not worse, than what he was in public, that wasn't all just for show. But do I know that for sure? Of course, not.
RiverDog wrote: Look, even if I give you the Adam James incident and pretend it didn't happen, there still is enough known, undisputed information for me to call into question Leach's tactics. What I know he said in his press conferences is more than enough, ie using terms like "fat", "lazy", "little fat girl friends", and so on directed not only at his players, but specific groups of his players, for me to question his treatment of his players, so there's really no point in going through all the details of the James incident. So in that sense, yes, unless you can prove to me that Leach didn't make those comments about his players in the news conferences, my mind is made up.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:This statement didn't come until late in your argument where you state that it's possible Leach's conduct in front of the press doesn't necessarily translate to his everyday coaching and relationship with his players. Perhaps not a concession, but it took a while to get here. I didn't want to infer or assume.
RiverDog wrote: Look, even if I give you the Adam James incident and pretend it didn't happen, there still is enough known, undisputed information for me to call into question Leach's tactics. What I know he said in his press conferences is more than enough, ie using terms like "fat", "lazy", "little fat girl friends", and so on directed not only at his players, but specific groups of his players, for me to question his treatment of his players, so there's really no point in going through all the details of the James incident. So in that sense, yes, unless you can prove to me that Leach didn't make those comments about his players in the news conferences, my mind is made up.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I don't get your stance in the bolded part; you're not availing yourself to these documents at all when they majorly call into question the account of that specific event in the media, and, therefore, shed a different light on the perception of what happened and Leach's relationship with his players. It's big blind spot in your argument if you won't at least read them. And he said what he said in his pressers; I can't and won't deny that. If that's enough for you in light of the additional information, then so be it.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I'm going to end my rebuttals here. I don't know why this one charged me up so much. Perhaps because I liked him as our head coach, and I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:You specifically said you would guess the way he runs his team is as bad or worse than what he shows in public. That sounds like it was implied to me.
Your reason was stated clearly. You only care about the evidence that supports your position. Weak dude.
Your position has some merit; Leach 100% said what he said. If it were my child I’d have a much better idea of what really went on and could decide with him if continuing to play for Leach is the right thing to do. I’d give your opinion more weight if it considered more of the information that’s available.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I'm going to end my rebuttals here.
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I didn’t pick apart a thing. It’s right there in plain text. You’re the one who won’t acknowledge it. And you’re being incredibly dismissive for someone who purports himself to be open minded.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests